Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
> Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 08:38:54 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > There are still some LGC tapes that CHM has that I haven't read. > No promises though. > Maybe Rich Alderson can check what has been read at LCM? I looked through all of the LCG tapes in our holdings (very few), which was how I found the little that I was able to supply to the DMR effort. Rich ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
Hi, I am curious where you found a 7.02 Monitor. I would be interested in a copy since this is the last one that supports the KI10. Also 7.01 would be nice too. I have 6.03 and 5.03 and am working on getting 4.5, 3.19 and 1.4 running. However all from 5.03 back only support the KA10. But I have a simh version of the KA10 however Dectapes are not written and RC10 has some strange problem. It currently supports: RP10 (Up to 4 channels of 8). MTA/MTB10 (up to 8 drives). LP,PTP,PTR. 16 lines on a DC10. RC10 but I can't seem to install a system on the drive. I need to write DK10 and TD10 controllers. And I want to add RH10 and KI10 support. Thanks Rich > The Ks10 Dmr case hos now been solved; the Dmr can be used in Tops10 > V7.02 to 7.05 with Decnet and Anf, but some minor issues have still > to be resolved. > The trace can be followed at the Simh issue list #100: > https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/100 > This trace will be closed but there is a follow-up trace #136: > https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/136 > where the last software problems will be ironed out. > > Best regards, > > R. Voorhorst > > P.S. @Mark P: I have tried over the last days to respond/update your > emails but your mailbox at info.. doesn't work (yet) and it's > redirection doesn't either. Please respond. > > > > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh > -- == Richard Cornwell sky...@sky-visions.com http://sky-visions.com == ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
e node I have seen it working only once by chance; all the KS10's have this same problem and wildcarding the same thing. On the other hand, the same operation to the larger KLH10's with >6000 pages but the same versions of FAL have none of these problems. With NFT there are no such problems, not even with wildcarding. It looks like VMS needs a lot of memory on the FAL or otherwise. I have yet to find a way to debug the FAL process for that DAP error as it is started up in the Galaxy/Opr system; a version started up from the prompt does not work as the incoming network requests are not fielded to it. I suppose DDT should work in some way on the detached port FAL runs on. All in all a nice trip down memory lane as once I also managed one of the first combinations of a Tops20 Decsystem-2060 with a Vax8650 on a Delni , with an ethernet Decserver 100 and a printer on a Decserver 150; and then via the yellow Ethernet cable segment to some PC's with Depca Ethernet card with Decnet; all phase-IV already. It was also the time of witty users from the States bypassing their allotted limited number of async terminal mux ports to the Dec20, by abusing the Vax Vms to do set hosting to the Dec20 to get there; over a satellite line then. That route was quickly cut off though .. It was the time of the clearinghouse tapes from Grenoble. Quite adventurous and humorous when looking back. Best regards. Reindert -Original Message- From: simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Phil Budne Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 17:25 To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR > From: "R. Voorhorst" > Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 08:10:23 + (UTC) . > The Ks10 Dmr case hos now been solved; the Dmr can be used in Tops10 > V7.02 to 7.05 with Decnet and Anf, but some minor issues have still to > be resolved. > The trace can be followed at the Simh issue list #100: > https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/100 Thanks for the detailed notes! It's wild to see the virtual network you created; I was just thinking this week about _some_ things that DECnet got right (backwards compatible evolution thru "Phases", PHase IV "areas" could span over multiple "links"; "hello timer" values in routing packets) .network /topology [ANF10 network: connected to BITXT1(10), located at BITXT1(10), 1 node] Node BITXT1 (10) None [DECnet network: local node BITXT1, 12 reachable nodes in area 7] Name Number Line Cost Hops L.Links Delay BITXOM (7.72) KDP-0-0 7 2 BITXOO (7.61) KDP-0-0 4 1 BITXOR (7.71) KDP-0-0 7 2 BITXOT (7.70) KDP-0-0 7 2 0 1000 BITXOU (7.82) KDP-0-0 7 2 0 1000 BITXOV (7.60) KDP-0-0 7 2 0 1000 BITXOW (7.74) KDP-0-0 7 2 0 1000 BITXOX (7.76) KDP-0-0 7 2 BITXOZ (7.81) KDP-0-0 7 2 BITXT0 (7.79) KDP-0-0 7 2 BITXT1 (7.80) local 0 0 0 5000 MBSERV (7.6) KDP-0-0 7 2 But That delivers the following: 1. Dmr Tops10-702: D8RINT V006 ANF okDecnet phase-III ok 2. Dmr Tops10-703: D8RINT V016 ANF okDecnet phase IV crash 3. Dmr Tops10-704/5:D8RINT V022 ANF okDecnet phase IV crash (UBA) .. The things to do are: 1. Retrieve either BB-X128A-SB or a full backup of a 702 system pack with [10,7] build tree 2. Repair D8RINT.MAC V016 to a newer V017 and possibly some Tops10-703 modules 3. Repair D8RINT.MAC V022 to a newer V023 and possibly some Tops10-704 modules V017 of the file was already used (on the way to V020 (if versions were octal, or V018 if they weren't)), and there's some possibility that there was a V023 that wasn't released, or hasn't been found, yet. So V016A and V022A might be better designations for modified files. Also I have some tiny memory that "WEM" stopcode was one where it was someone's initials! Wayne Matson? http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-bt99g-bb/01/d60unv.mac.html ; [111] 12-May-81 WEM Add D6IAB, D6OAB error returns Phil ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
On 5/1/14 8:25 AM, Phil Budne wrote: 1. Retrieve either BB-X128A-SB or a full backup of a 702 system pack with [10,7] build tree There are still some LGC tapes that CHM has that I haven't read. No promises though. Maybe Rich Alderson can check what has been read at LCM? ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
> From: "R. Voorhorst" > Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 08:10:23 + (UTC) . > The Ks10 Dmr case hos now been solved; the Dmr can be used in Tops10 V7.02 > to 7.05 with Decnet and Anf, but some minor issues have still to be > resolved. > The trace can be followed at the Simh issue list #100: > https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/100 Thanks for the detailed notes! It's wild to see the virtual network you created; I was just thinking this week about _some_ things that DECnet got right (backwards compatible evolution thru "Phases", PHase IV "areas" could span over multiple "links"; "hello timer" values in routing packets) .network /topology [ANF10 network: connected to BITXT1(10), located at BITXT1(10), 1 node] Node BITXT1 (10) None [DECnet network: local node BITXT1, 12 reachable nodes in area 7] Name Number Line Cost Hops L.Links Delay BITXOM (7.72) KDP-0-0 7 2 BITXOO (7.61) KDP-0-0 4 1 BITXOR (7.71) KDP-0-0 7 2 BITXOT (7.70) KDP-0-0 7 2 0 1000 BITXOU (7.82) KDP-0-0 7 2 0 1000 BITXOV (7.60) KDP-0-0 7 2 0 1000 BITXOW (7.74) KDP-0-0 7 2 0 1000 BITXOX (7.76) KDP-0-0 7 2 BITXOZ (7.81) KDP-0-0 7 2 BITXT0 (7.79) KDP-0-0 7 2 BITXT1 (7.80) local 0 0 0 5000 MBSERV (7.6) KDP-0-0 7 2 But That delivers the following: 1. Dmr Tops10-702: D8RINT V006 ANF okDecnet phase-III ok 2. Dmr Tops10-703: D8RINT V016 ANF okDecnet phase IV crash 3. Dmr Tops10-704/5:D8RINT V022 ANF okDecnet phase IV crash (UBA) .. The things to do are: 1. Retrieve either BB-X128A-SB or a full backup of a 702 system pack with [10,7] build tree 2. Repair D8RINT.MAC V016 to a newer V017 and possibly some Tops10-703 modules 3. Repair D8RINT.MAC V022 to a newer V023 and possibly some Tops10-704 modules V017 of the file was already used (on the way to V020 (if versions were octal, or V018 if they weren't)), and there's some possibility that there was a V023 that wasn't released, or hasn't been found, yet. So V016A and V022A might be better designations for modified files. Also I have some tiny memory that "WEM" stopcode was one where it was someone's initials! Wayne Matson? http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-bt99g-bb/01/d60unv.mac.html ; [111] 12-May-81 WEM Add D6IAB, D6OAB error returns Phil ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
The Ks10 Dmr case hos now been solved; the Dmr can be used in Tops10 V7.02 to 7.05 with Decnet and Anf, but some minor issues have still to be resolved. The trace can be followed at the Simh issue list #100: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/100 This trace will be closed but there is a follow-up trace #136: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/136 where the last software problems will be ironed out. Best regards, R. Voorhorst P.S. @Mark P: I have tried over the last days to respond/update your emails but your mailbox at info.. doesn't work (yet) and it's redirection doesn't either. Please respond. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] KS10 and the DMR
More time is getting consumed by the things around it like to enable debugging then the debugging proper. A Tops10-703 base system with Decnet networking has been generated. The standard basic network partner for my network tests is a Vax8600 with various DMC lines; I only use the more broader equipped Pdp11 with Dmc/Dup lines if I use Dup testing to contrast inline Ddcmp (DCM/DMR) with host based Ddcmp (Dup) behaviour as the latter can be seen as the "proper" standard. The base image was verified configured with the Kdp/Dup communicating with the Vax Dmc; Decnet functioned on the Ddcmp/Routing level and NFT worked. Therefor the base image can be assumed to be sound (enough). Configured with the Dmr and the D8RINT V016 driver set it still establishes the same crash in DEFCIR. This driver - already in its unpatched form - excels in an extraordinary amount of resetting the Dmr device completely, even the unconfigured non existing lines. Debugging D8RINT in 703 is somewhat different from 704 as the code seems to run in a different section from startup; initially the symbols are invisible, but that can be easily managed. Repairing the cause of the DEFCIR crash this still leads to another crash further down the line, but now at least we reach a stage where some Ddcmp activity can be seen. It looks like the Dmr at that point is properly setup to start communicating with the Vax Dmc (set in Dmr mode). However while the Vax is transmitting and receiving start dialog packets, the Tops10 side remains stuck in only transmitting start packets and retrying that after time out of receiving an acknowledge. Before continuing with the investigation of the further behavior of the D8RINT, it is now necessary to first investigate the Dmr emulation path why the Vax transmitted packets are not received. As the Ddcmp process is entirely within the Dmr, the Tops10 side has actually very little to do with it. Either the Dmr hasn't been properly setup or there is something within the emulation. What exactly is wrong cannot easily be explained as the Dmc/Dmr code base in the Pddp10 and Vax emulators is in fact (almost) the same. There is no difference in effective behaviour between the Tcp/IP connections of the Dmc/Dmr pair with and without udp; only when using the normal connections sometimes the lines are seen to be unavailable or busy. While on the Vax normal transmit/receive is shown, on the Pdp10 side this shows: DDCMP Link State: IStart R: 0 N: 0 A: 0 T: 1 X: 0 SACK: false SNAK: false SREP: false rcv_pkt: rcv_pkt_size: 0 xmt_buffer: nak_reason: 0 TimerRunning: true TimeRemaining: 4 Swbw07> show dmr0 stat DMR0 input (on) queued/total = 8/8 output (on) queued/total = 0/2104 packet data queued/packets sent = 0/263 output buffer size = 16384 bytes in buffer = 0 Buffers received from the network=0 Buffers sent to the network=1012 Output transfers completed for receive buffers=0 Output transfers completed for transmit buffers=0 Input transfers completed for receive buffers=15 Input transfers completed for transmit buffers=0 Control Out operations processed=0 DDCMP control packets received=0 DDCMP control packets sent=1012 To be continued ... ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] KS10 and the DMR
Comparing the debugging results from Tops10 703 with 704 I decided to switch the test code base to D8RINT V016 and Tops10-703 since this version combination is closer to the original, of which Timothe reported it had run, and because with one code patch, of which one can be reasonably sure that it may be correct, the whole system gets more closer to the operational state and consequently more (register) DMR device interaction is seen. So it is also becoming closer to a case in which potentially wrong or unimplemented expected DMR behavior may start to influence a possible cause leading to the next perceived crash. At least on a preliminary glimpse, there seems to be some bits put in the DMR registers where there is no definition for in the Simh code base, but it still early in the debugging process an this can be seen wrongly. Needs a lot more of debugging and code tracing with venerable (E)DDT . ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] KS10 and the DMR
Laziness doesn't pay .. For checking the DMR behavior I resorted to the 703 image distributed on the net. The fact that the DMR version V022 didn't line out with the monitor version 703, to search for all versions of D8RINT in the archives; a few were found. Since some distrust arose, I decided to stay at the safe side and to create a fresh 703 image with Decnet from the " officially" published distribution media. There then surfaces a version V016 of D8RINT which matches the 703 monitor; thus the published 703 medium (PaulAllen's) is somewhat spoiled with respect to version consistency. The D8RINT V016 compiles and links without flaw in a generated 703 monitor system, but it crashes in the same place in DEFCIR under the same conditions. Applying the same fix for it - insert a JCFL 0 noop before the status check nullifying the skip return - as with 704 leads to the same ultimate termination, in this case stopcode IME. At least here, there is no race condition with respect to Unibus mapping so that error in 704 is avoided. It is probably created when startup components were integrated in one SYSINI module in 704. If that problem is tentatively fixed in the SYSINI in version 704 there is the same kind of error as in 703. Further stepping back to Tops10-702 at the moment seems to be not possible as there currently are no 702 distribution media present. Best regards ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
Mark, this is a cross posting from me with respect to Simh issue list to broaden the discussion. The forum name appears somewhat unfortunate to be Simh as it is the mail address I use for Simh exchanges. Reindert ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
This issue has been discovered, but no real resolution has been discovered to resolve it. It is open on the github issue system at: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/100 You guys seem to be digging in the right direction. If/when this process gets far enough to actually engage the DMR device more than the basic bus probe and 'are you there' device initialization which we've seen so far, there may indeed be problems with the DMR implementation. I'd be glad to see that so I can fix it. Please keep me advised. Commenting in the github issue would be good, but here on the simh list will also work. Thanks. - Mark ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
With the search functionality in the archive one can retrieve some older versions of D8RINT.MAC On the TSU for 704 there is no one distributed, so the last is for 704. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
Trying to see whether it would work on Tops10-703 as probably nearby enough to 702, the following emerges: somehow on the 703 Decnet distribution tape a D8RINT version already for the 704 monitor version has been shipped as it has code on board referring to code pieces only existing in other monitor modules from 704 onwards. It can be checked against the difference between the versions of it's ancestor D8KINT. I know, status of D8RINT was effective unsupported although the various hooks to it do exist in supported monitor modules, but this flaw should not have happened. D8RINT as shipped in 703 Decnet cannot be used in the 703 monitor generation. Volledige inhoud weergeven ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
On Thu, 6 Mar 2014, R. Voorhorst wrote: Might you know by chance where the 705 set can be retrieved; as far as I know 705 was the result of various patches applied to 704 and not released as a separate version. I _think_ it's the TSU tapes on http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ Best regards A newer one /might/ have been included with the 7.05 monitor set. Not sure though. Best regards Volledige inhoud weergeven -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
Might you know by chance where the 705 set can be retrieved; as far as I know 705 was the result of various patches applied to 704 and not released as a separate version. Best regards >A newer one /might/ have been included with the 7.05 monitor set. Not sure though. > Best regards > > Volledige inhoud weergeven > > > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
On Thu, 6 Mar 2014, s...@swabhawat.com wrote: Does anyone know of later releases of D8RINT and or what the last working combination was. The errors found - thus far - have nothing to do with the hardware interaction itself or Simh emulation of it proper; it is pure Tops10 bebaviour. A newer one /might/ have been included with the 7.05 monitor set. Not sure though. Best regards Volledige inhoud weergeven -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] KS10 and the DMR
When trying to make the combination Simh KS10 work with the DMR synchronous line interface on Tops10-704; some peculiarities are encountered. Has anyone at the time seen this combination effectively work on the real hardware? The driver for DMR is D8RINT.MAC in UNSMON and is created for Tops10-702 by Timothe Litt and he stated in the documentation that performance had been checked in relation to the standard supported Kdp/Dup combination, so something must have worked at the time, whether within Dec laboratory or in the real world with some special customers. However by EDDT debugging the monitor 704, it is now clear that with the current releases of D8RINT and Tops10-704 it is impossible to function because of at least 2 errors in de code; one in D8RINT itself which on itself can be easily repaired, but leads to another second error found in SYSINI in Tops10; the relative location in SYSINI and possibly the form of the DMRONC routine creates race conditions on establishing the unibus map in the DMR control block leading to stopcode UBA. Does anyone know of later releases of D8RINT and or what the last working combination was. The errors found - thus far - have nothing to do with the hardware interaction itself or Simh emulation of it proper; it is pure Tops10 bebaviour. Best regards Volledige inhoud weergeven ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
