Re: [Simh] SimH on Raspberry Pi - out of date?

[Jacob Goense]

On 2016-03-17 14:27, Gregg Levine wrote:

If I remember correctly it would be up to the maintainer of the
package as shown on the appropriate page on the Debian site. You'd
need to check there to see who that is, and then follow their
procedures for requesting the update.


Might be a nice gesture to maintainers if a certain commit in
this eternal Beta could be dressed up for dinner. eg.

- has documentation and code mostly in sync
- is known to build where it should
- warranty void instantly
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[Simh] SimH on Raspberry Pi - out of date?

[Paul Hardy 2]

I've been running some VAX emulations on PC and on Raspberry Pi, and I note
that the version of SimH that you get with Rapbian is a rather elderly
3.8-1. What are the plans to get 4.0 be something other than Beta, which is
presumably a prerequisite for it being pulled as a supported package on
Raspbian?

 

Yes I could clone the sources and rebuild a Pi version of 4.0 from github,
but it would be a pain to do on the Pi, and given the Pi is meant to be
friendly to beginners, it would be good to have a pre-built current SimH
available.

 

 

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Re: [Simh] SimH on Raspberry Pi - out of date?

[Gregg Levine]

Hello!
So do I, but I'm also running Raspbian. It's, ah, causing me to feel
rather peeved. For our other favorite, I typically end up building it
from source We can do the same, but a lot of us would rather use
existing packages.

-
Gregg C Levine gregg.drw...@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:08 PM, Kevin Monceaux  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 01:17:55PM -, Paul Hardy 2 wrote:
>
>> I've been running some VAX emulations on PC and on Raspberry Pi, and I note
>> that the version of SimH that you get with Rapbian is a rather elderly
>> 3.8-1. What are the plans to get 4.0 be something other than Beta, which is
>> presumably a prerequisite for it being pulled as a supported package on
>> Raspbian?
>
> With Raspbian being based on Debian it's not likely you'll find the latest
> versions of anything in Raspbian's repos.  Debian errs on the side of
> stability and takes its time with getting the latest versions of packages
> into its "stable" branch.  I'm not familiar with Raspbian.  I only have one
> Raspberry Pi and I'm running Arch Linux on it.  With regular Debian there is
> a "testing" branch that one can switch to to get more up to date software.
> Even in Debian's testing branch the latest version of SIMH available is
> 3.8.1-5.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Kevin
> http://www.RawFedDogs.net
> http://www.Lassie.xyz
> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
> Bruceville, TX
>
> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
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Re: [Simh] SimH on Raspberry Pi - out of date?

[Kevin Monceaux]

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 01:17:55PM -, Paul Hardy 2 wrote:

> I've been running some VAX emulations on PC and on Raspberry Pi, and I note
> that the version of SimH that you get with Rapbian is a rather elderly
> 3.8-1. What are the plans to get 4.0 be something other than Beta, which is
> presumably a prerequisite for it being pulled as a supported package on
> Raspbian?

With Raspbian being based on Debian it's not likely you'll find the latest
versions of anything in Raspbian's repos.  Debian errs on the side of
stability and takes its time with getting the latest versions of packages
into its "stable" branch.  I'm not familiar with Raspbian.  I only have one
Raspberry Pi and I'm running Arch Linux on it.  With regular Debian there is
a "testing" branch that one can switch to to get more up to date software.
Even in Debian's testing branch the latest version of SIMH available is
3.8.1-5.




-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Zane Healy schreef op 15-2-2016 om 18:23:

[snip]
It looks like a good replacement for my VAXstation 3100, but not such 
a great one for the VAXstation 4000/60.  OTOH, the reduced power, 
size, and noise make this an attractive idea.  I’ve been meaning to 
try the original for emulating a PDP-10 and PDP-11 for a couple years, 
just never have the spare time.


Any issues with LAT?  With something like this, I’d just as soon use 
my DECserver 90 TL and a VT420. :-)  I’ve never actually gotten 
VAX/VMS fully running on SIMH.  I think I tried it out as far as 
starting an install on my Mac a few years ago.


As long as you stick to a wired connection on the Pi, the non-routable 
protocols like LAT and SCS pose no threat to the solution.


If you're so inclined, you might open up the VT420 casing and see 
whether there is room to place the Raspberry inside. There sould me 
plenty of %V power points to feed the Pi. Then all you need is a serial 
connector on the Pi to operate it from the VT420.


/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Ethan Dicks]

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 3:47 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:
> Please check out my post on running a VAXcluster on Raspberry Pi's
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vaxcluster-raspberry-pi-wilm-boerhout

Very nice.  Do you have instructions or downloads for making that
11/780 case?  It looks like foam-core board and blue painter's tape
covered in printed accents (but they could be hand-drawn... hard to
tell from the photos).  Is it 1:10 scale? (metric) 1:12 scale?
(imperial)

Cheers

-ethan
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

What he said :-)
Op ma 15 feb. 2016 om 20:47 schreef Thomas Merritt 

>
> > On Feb 15, 2016, at 8:37 AM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
> >
> > On 2016-02-15 16:15, Paul Koning wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Wilm Boerhout 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26
> >>>
> >>> [snip]
> >>>
>  Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just
> blogging about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how you
> clustered those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've got a few
> Pi around looking for something to cluster around...
> >>> There are three parts to a successful setup:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
> >>>   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet)
> >>
> >> Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But
> that's not really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet
> addressing and offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11
> certainly does.  You can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.
> I've run PDP11 SimH that way with no problems.
> >
> > Actually, I have run into problems. The broadcast domain, as well as the
> Unicast have slight differences to Ethernet, which makes it sometimes fail
> in subtle ways.
> > Having a second mac address on a WiFi interface, one that is used by
> simh, though tun/tap, does not work that well with WiFi. Unfortunately.
> >
> > I've definitely had problems keeping it working under OS X at least. And
> I'm pretty sure I've read of others having the same problem.
> >
> >   Johnny
> >
> >
> > ___
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>
> This is a feature of 802.11.  The packet format over the air for 802.11
> has two MAC addresses in it to in theory enable bridging.  One for the
> radio and one for the sender.  Most 802.11 firmware just stuffs the radio's
> MAC address in both and ignores the MAC address in the original frame when
> sending, and when receiving the senders radio MAC address is used in the
> frame propagated to the computer by the adapter.  The result is that
> everything is sent as if from the host and not the VM and replies are
> delivered back to the host and not the VM.  This can be worked around in
> the hypervisor as VirtualBox does for IPv4 and to some degree IPv6.  But
> don't expect a SimH machines to be able to communicate over WiFi without a
> lot of work in SimH’s networking implementation.
>
> -- TJ
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Thomas Merritt]

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 8:37 AM, Johnny Billquist  wrote:
> 
> On 2016-02-15 16:15, Paul Koning wrote:
>> 
>>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26
>>> 
>>> [snip]
>>> 
 Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just blogging 
 about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how you clustered 
 those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've got a few Pi 
 around looking for something to cluster around...
>>> There are three parts to a successful setup:
>>> 
>>> 1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
>>>   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet)
>> 
>> Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But that's 
>> not really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet addressing 
>> and offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11 certainly does.  
>> You can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.  I've run PDP11 
>> SimH that way with no problems.
> 
> Actually, I have run into problems. The broadcast domain, as well as the 
> Unicast have slight differences to Ethernet, which makes it sometimes fail in 
> subtle ways.
> Having a second mac address on a WiFi interface, one that is used by simh, 
> though tun/tap, does not work that well with WiFi. Unfortunately.
> 
> I've definitely had problems keeping it working under OS X at least. And I'm 
> pretty sure I've read of others having the same problem.
> 
>   Johnny
> 
> 
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This is a feature of 802.11.  The packet format over the air for 802.11 has two 
MAC addresses in it to in theory enable bridging.  One for the radio and one 
for the sender.  Most 802.11 firmware just stuffs the radio's MAC address in 
both and ignores the MAC address in the original frame when sending, and when 
receiving the senders radio MAC address is used in the frame propagated to the 
computer by the adapter.  The result is that everything is sent as if from the 
host and not the VM and replies are delivered back to the host and not the VM.  
This can be worked around in the hypervisor as VirtualBox does for IPv4 and to 
some degree IPv6.  But don't expect a SimH machines to be able to communicate 
over WiFi without a lot of work in SimH’s networking implementation.

-- TJ
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Zane Healy]

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 7:13 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:
> 
> Zane Healy schreef op 15-2-2016 om 16:08:
>>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 12:47 AM, Wilm Boerhout  
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Please check out my post on running a VAXcluster on Raspberry Pi's
>>> 
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vaxcluster-raspberry-pi-wilm-boerhout 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> /Wilm
>> There are a couple things that I find interesting about this, and I find 
>> myself wondering, what real VAXen does the level of performance you’re 
>> getting with the various RPi models, compare to?
> The simh VAX gets about 4 VUPs on the 1GHz Raspberry Pi 2 and the Pi Zero, 
> and about 3 VUPs on the older original Raspberry Pi which runs at about 
> 600MHz.
> 
> But is is 5V, 1A compared to the original VAX-11/780 at 240V 3-phase, 32A. 
> Let alone the physical dimensions...
> 
> /Wilm

It looks like a good replacement for my VAXstation 3100, but not such a great 
one for the VAXstation 4000/60.  OTOH, the reduced power, size, and noise make 
this an attractive idea.  I’ve been meaning to try the original for emulating a 
PDP-10 and PDP-11 for a couple years, just never have the spare time. 

Any issues with LAT?  With something like this, I’d just as soon use my 
DECserver 90 TL and a VT420. :-)  I’ve never actually gotten VAX/VMS fully 
running on SIMH.  I think I tried it out as far as starting an install on my 
Mac a few years ago.

Zane



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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-02-15 16:15, Paul Koning wrote:



On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:

Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26

[snip]


Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just blogging 
about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how you clustered 
those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've got a few Pi around 
looking for something to cluster around...

There are three parts to a successful setup:

1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet)


Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But that's not 
really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet addressing and 
offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11 certainly does.  You 
can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.  I've run PDP11 SimH that 
way with no problems.


Actually, I have run into problems. The broadcast domain, as well as the 
Unicast have slight differences to Ethernet, which makes it sometimes 
fail in subtle ways.
Having a second mac address on a WiFi interface, one that is used by 
simh, though tun/tap, does not work that well with WiFi. Unfortunately.


I've definitely had problems keeping it working under OS X at least. And 
I'm pretty sure I've read of others having the same problem.


Johnny


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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 10:19 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:
> 
> Paul Koning schreef op 15-2-2016 om 16:15:
> 
> [snip]
>>> There are three parts to a successful setup:
>>> 
>>> 1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
>>>   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet) 
>>> 
>> Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But that's 
>> not really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet addressing 
>> and offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11 certainly does.  
>> You can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.  I've run PDP11 
>> SimH that way with no problems.
>> 
>>  paul
>> 
>> 
>> 
> Maybe it is my poor choice of wireless networking adapter, or a Raspbian 
> thing, but I never managed to get tun/tap networking with a bridge to work on 
> the Raspbian wlan0 device (in this case, an Edimax wireless adapter), whereas 
> on the eth0 device (the built in Raspberry adapter) it works instantly.

I'll have to give it a try.  Well, on a Beaglebone Black, that is (I don't like 
closed hardware, or hardware that tries to be open but that uses a closed chip 
at the center).

paul

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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Paul Koning schreef op 15-2-2016 om 16:15:

[snip]

There are three parts to a successful setup:

1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet)

Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But that's not 
really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet addressing and 
offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11 certainly does.  You 
can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.  I've run PDP11 SimH that 
way with no problems.

paul


Maybe it is my poor choice of wireless networking adapter, or a Raspbian 
thing, but I never managed to get tun/tap networking with a bridge to 
work on the Raspbian wlan0 device (in this case, an Edimax wireless 
adapter), whereas on the eth0 device (the built in Raspberry adapter) it 
works instantly.


/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:01 AM, Wilm Boerhout  wrote:
> 
> Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just blogging 
>> about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how you clustered 
>> those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've got a few Pi around 
>> looking for something to cluster around...
> There are three parts to a successful setup:
> 
> 1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
>   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet) 

Well, Wireless is 802.11 which indeed isn't 802.3 / Ethernet.  But that's not 
really relevant.  The question is whether it uses Ethernet addressing and 
offers an Ethernet-compatible MAC layer API, and 802.11 certainly does.  You 
can run SimH Ethernet just fine over a wireless LAN.  I've run PDP11 SimH that 
way with no problems.

paul


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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 15:09:
Thanks. I look forward to seeing the .ini's and rc.local, etc. I come 
at it the other way around. I know Linux/Mac OS X/FreeBSD quite well, 
but know next to nothing about VMS (I know a bit about VAX because of 
its relationship to PDP-11, which I've been studying pretty 
relentlessly). I have a hobbyist license for OpenVMS, but I'm unclear 
if that's the same OS you are referring to?


Regards,
Will
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and as an afterthought, VMS 1.5 does not use the LMF licensing facility. 
It runs as installed from the tape. You'd like it, when you login, it is 
really RSX with a DCL shell.


/Wilm
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 15:09:

[snip]
As soon as I get home again (may be in a few days), I can post the 
simh ini file(s), my /etc/rc.local which implements the tun/tap 
stuff, as well as VMS MODPARAMS.DAT. That is as far as I will go in 
documenting. Making it work and stumbling along was part of the fun. 
It is my way to teach myself Linux. VMS, I know of old.


/Wilm


Thanks. I look forward to seeing the .ini's and rc.local, etc. I come 
at it the other way around. I know Linux/Mac OS X/FreeBSD quite well, 
but know next to nothing about VMS (I know a bit about VAX because of 
its relationship to PDP-11, which I've been studying pretty 
relentlessly). I have a hobbyist license for OpenVMS, but I'm unclear 
if that's the same OS you are referring to?


It is. One of the things that separates VMS newbies from us dinosaurs is 
that we treat "Open" in OpenVMS as a silent prefix :-)


It was invented by Digital marketing at the time Posix came into being. 
OpenVMS was one of the first OS's to achieve Posix compatibility. Or 
maybe that was also just a scam by Digital marketing...


/Wilm


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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Will Senn]

On 2/15/16 8:01 AM, Wilm Boerhout wrote:

Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26

[snip]

Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just 
blogging about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how 
you clustered those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've 
got a few Pi around looking for something to cluster around...

There are three parts to a successful setup:

1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet) and the tun/tap
   setup on the Raspbian Linux host. This is well documented in the
   github simh docs. This will leave you with access to your LAN
   from/to the Linux host, as well as a "separate" tap0 device for the
   VAX/VMS guest.
2. Build your VAX of choice. My three cluster members are a VAXserver
   3900, a MicroVAX 3900 (same "vax" build for simh) and a 16MB
   MicroVAX II ("microvax2" build). The latter because I wanted to see
   whether the MicroVAX II could be configured with TCP/IP at all. The
   build process and its options are -again- well documented in the
   simh docs.
3. Deploy your VMS OS, configure DECnet and TCP/IP and use the
   CLUSTER_CONFIG DCL command procedure to first create the cluster
   "master", and then add the satellites. CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM is sort of
   self-documenting.

I used the V4.0 standard github sources to build, and VAX/VMS V7.3 to 
deploy the cluster. Some Pi's run Raspbian Wheezy, some run Jessie. It 
varies along with my mood and the phase of the moon.


As soon as I get home again (may be in a few days), I can post the 
simh ini file(s), my /etc/rc.local which implements the tun/tap stuff, 
as well as VMS MODPARAMS.DAT. That is as far as I will go in 
documenting. Making it work and stumbling along was part of the fun. 
It is my way to teach myself Linux. VMS, I know of old.


/Wilm


Thanks. I look forward to seeing the .ini's and rc.local, etc. I come at 
it the other way around. I know Linux/Mac OS X/FreeBSD quite well, but 
know next to nothing about VMS (I know a bit about VAX because of its 
relationship to PDP-11, which I've been studying pretty relentlessly). I 
have a hobbyist license for OpenVMS, but I'm unclear if that's the same 
OS you are referring to?


Regards,
Will
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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Will Senn schreef op 15-2-2016 om 14:26

[snip]

Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just 
blogging about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how 
you clustered those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've 
got a few Pi around looking for something to cluster around...

There are three parts to a successful setup:

1. Since each Pi has only one Ethernet interface, make sure you use a
   wired connection (wireless isn't real Ethernet) and the tun/tap
   setup on the Raspbian Linux host. This is well documented in the
   github simh docs. This will leave you with access to your LAN
   from/to the Linux host, as well as a "separate" tap0 device for the
   VAX/VMS guest.
2. Build your VAX of choice. My three cluster members are a VAXserver
   3900, a MicroVAX 3900 (same "vax" build for simh) and a 16MB
   MicroVAX II ("microvax2" build). The latter because I wanted to see
   whether the MicroVAX II could be configured with TCP/IP at all. The
   build process and its options are -again- well documented in the
   simh docs.
3. Deploy your VMS OS, configure DECnet and TCP/IP and use the
   CLUSTER_CONFIG DCL command procedure to first create the cluster
   "master", and then add the satellites. CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM is sort of
   self-documenting.

I used the V4.0 standard github sources to build, and VAX/VMS V7.3 to 
deploy the cluster. Some Pi's run Raspbian Wheezy, some run Jessie. It 
varies along with my mood and the phase of the moon.


As soon as I get home again (may be in a few days), I can post the simh 
ini file(s), my /etc/rc.local which implements the tun/tap stuff, as 
well as VMS MODPARAMS.DAT. That is as far as I will go in documenting. 
Making it work and stumbling along was part of the fun. It is my way to 
teach myself Linux. VMS, I know of old.


/Wilm

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Re: [Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Will Senn]

On 2/15/16 2:47 AM, Wilm Boerhout wrote:

Please check out my post on running a VAXcluster on Raspberry Pi's

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vaxcluster-raspberry-pi-wilm-boerhout

/Wilm
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Wilm,

Are you documenting the setup process for your endeavors, or just 
blogging about the result? I think it would be interesting to see how 
you clustered those Pi Vaxen as much as to know it was possible. I've 
got a few Pi around looking for something to cluster around...


Thanks,

Will
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[Simh] simh on RaspBerry Pi

[Wilm Boerhout]

Please check out my post on running a VAXcluster on Raspberry Pi's

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vaxcluster-raspberry-pi-wilm-boerhout

/Wilm
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