[POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
(feel like POLLing and RTing these days - catching up with my Sling stuff ;-) Hi, The more I talk to Carsten, the more I realize that he and others are right - scripting is evil. Untyped variables, poorly-specified languages, weird I told you we're dynamic bugs...this does not really fit with our Enterprise strategy for Sling. With one exception, maybe...due to its inherent type safety, and available enterprise-level tooling, JSP is probably the only scripting language that deserves to stay. As this might be a bit controversial, I'm starting with a [POLL] - the idea would be to remove (or at least deprecate, as a first step) the pluggability of script engines, and keep only the JSP engine. Or maybe just keep a handful of officially approved script engines, marked as such with a cryptographically-safe value (based on a secret key shared by Sling PMC members only) in their manifest file. People can then move their code to Java servlets and maybe some JSP, enjoying the reduced number of bugs along the way. Or request their favorite scripting language to be validated, but we'd then need to define a test suite to verify our enterprise-level requirements for languages besides JSP. If we disagree on this (I hope we don't), we might envision two variants of Sling: the Enterprise version with no scripting (except JSP and validated engines, as indicated), and the shoot-yourself-in-the-foot version with no restrictions. And re-evaluate in a year from now. We might want to make a decision on this *before* our next release, to avoid having to deprecate stuff right after it. But right now this is just a [POLL] to gather opinions. WDYT? -Bertrand
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
On Wed 01 Apr 2009 16:05, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: The more I talk to Carsten, the more I realize that he and others are right - scripting is evil. Untyped variables, poorly-specified languages, weird I told you we're dynamic bugs...this does not really fit with our Enterprise strategy for Sling. I'm mostly interested in Sling because of the options for scripting. I've very little interest in actually writing Java any more these days. I didn't realize Sling was focusing exclusively on enterprise. IMHO sling could bring in plenty of non-Java users just like most CouchDB users doesn't use (or even know) Erlang. -- J Aaron Farr jadetower.com[US] +1 724-964-4515 馮傑仁 cubiclemuses.com [HK] +852 8123-7905
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: The more I talk to Carsten, the more I realize that he and others are right - scripting is evil. Hurray - welcome on board the ihatescripting club! It's a very exclusive club though and we have a very difficult entrance test (write a blog application without scripting). But I guess you'll manage that easily. Just send me the code when you're done and you can enjoy the benefits of never scripting again in your life! That's really awesome - trust me. Untyped variables, poorly-specified languages, weird I told you we're dynamic bugs...this does not really fit with our Enterprise strategy for Sling. With one exception, maybe...due to its inherent type safety, and available enterprise-level tooling, JSP is probably the only scripting language that deserves to stay. Hmm, what about the good old XSP from Cocoon? I think we should replace JSP with that. If we disagree on this (I hope we don't), we might envision two variants of Sling: the Enterprise version with no scripting (except JSP and validated engines, as indicated), and the shoot-yourself-in-the-foot version with no restrictions. And re-evaluate in a year from now. Wow, that's a great idea - I can already imagine the Apache Sling SYITF distribution. Yes, big +1 Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
Hi, +1 Good proposal! We don't want all those script kiddies ruining the good name of Sling 2.0.0 Enterprise Edition, S2EE. On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: With one exception, maybe...due to its inherent type safety, and available enterprise-level tooling, JSP is probably the only scripting language that deserves to stay. I would suggest that we only allow JSP documents using the XML syntax. Those pesky % characters are evil as noted also by Vidar in a different thread. Also, I propose that we disable the jsp:scriptlet/ element. All such code should be placed in tag libraries as proper Java classes. BR, Jukka Zitting
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
+1 if we make Whitespace [1] the primary language for Sling. +0 otherwise Michael [1] http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: (feel like POLLing and RTing these days - catching up with my Sling stuff ;-) Hi, The more I talk to Carsten, the more I realize that he and others are right - scripting is evil. Untyped variables, poorly-specified languages, weird I told you we're dynamic bugs...this does not really fit with our Enterprise strategy for Sling. With one exception, maybe...due to its inherent type safety, and available enterprise-level tooling, JSP is probably the only scripting language that deserves to stay. As this might be a bit controversial, I'm starting with a [POLL] - the idea would be to remove (or at least deprecate, as a first step) the pluggability of script engines, and keep only the JSP engine. Or maybe just keep a handful of officially approved script engines, marked as such with a cryptographically-safe value (based on a secret key shared by Sling PMC members only) in their manifest file. People can then move their code to Java servlets and maybe some JSP, enjoying the reduced number of bugs along the way. Or request their favorite scripting language to be validated, but we'd then need to define a test suite to verify our enterprise-level requirements for languages besides JSP. If we disagree on this (I hope we don't), we might envision two variants of Sling: the Enterprise version with no scripting (except JSP and validated engines, as indicated), and the shoot-yourself-in-the-foot version with no restrictions. And re-evaluate in a year from now. We might want to make a decision on this *before* our next release, to avoid having to deprecate stuff right after it. But right now this is just a [POLL] to gather opinions. WDYT? -Bertrand
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Michael Dürig michael.due...@day.com wrote: +1 if we make Whitespace [1] the primary language for Sling. [1] http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ +1 I took a look at Whitespace, and liked it so much that I decided to port the entire Sling codebase to it. I'm sure you will agree, so as soon as I get my svn account, I'll start replacing the ugly, old-fashioned Java classes with clean, white Whitespace files. -- Vidar S. Ramdal vi...@idium.no - http://www.idium.no Akersgata 16, N-0158 Oslo, Norway +47 21 531941, ext 2070
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
Hi, Jukka Zitting schrieb: Hi, +1 Good proposal! We don't want all those script kiddies ruining the good name of Sling 2.0.0 Enterprise Edition, S2EE. On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: With one exception, maybe...due to its inherent type safety, and available enterprise-level tooling, JSP is probably the only scripting language that deserves to stay. I would suggest that we only allow JSP documents using the XML syntax. Those pesky % characters are evil as noted also by Vidar in a different thread. Also, I propose that we disable the jsp:scriptlet/ element. All such code should be placed in tag libraries as proper Java classes. While being at it, we should of course also forbid JSTL and EL support. Regards Felix
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
On Wed 01 Apr 2009 16:05, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: WDYT? I think I'm going to quit replying to Bertand until April 2nd. I can't tell which of his emails are serious and which aren't. I'm still not sure about this one. :-) -- J Aaron Farr jadetower.com[US] +1 724-964-4515 馮傑仁 cubiclemuses.com [HK] +852 8123-7905
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
Hi, Vidar Ramdal schrieb: On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Michael Dürig michael.due...@day.com wrote: +1 if we make Whitespace [1] the primary language for Sling. [1] http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ +1 I took a look at Whitespace, and liked it so much that I decided to port the entire Sling codebase to it. I'm sure you will agree, so as soon as I get my svn account, I'll start replacing the ugly, old-fashioned Java classes with clean, white Whitespace files. If you like clean languages you should consider my new Null proposal [1] currently being discussed. It is based on the Null programming language. Regards Felix [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/NullProposal
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:55 AM, J Aaron Farr fa...@apache.org wrote: ...I think I'm going to quit replying to Bertand until April 2nd. I can't tell which of his emails are serious and which aren't. I'm still not sure about this one I'm sure Carsten would like it to be serious, but I'm a big fan of scripting languages ;-) -Bertrand
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
Well I think sling should be changed to work with flat file systems instead of JCR. Putting data into a typed node tree puts too many constraints on what data we can put into it. 2009/4/1 Felix Meschberger fmesc...@gmail.com Hi, Vidar Ramdal schrieb: On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Michael Dürig michael.due...@day.com wrote: +1 if we make Whitespace [1] the primary language for Sling. [1] http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ +1 I took a look at Whitespace, and liked it so much that I decided to port the entire Sling codebase to it. I'm sure you will agree, so as soon as I get my svn account, I'll start replacing the ugly, old-fashioned Java classes with clean, white Whitespace files. If you like clean languages you should consider my new Null proposal [1] currently being discussed. It is based on the Null programming language. Regards Felix [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/NullProposal
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
Hi Bertrand, I see you are making progress. It looks like the fresh icelandic air is good for you. I totally agree that scripting is evil and that we need to make changes in order to make Sling more enterprise ready. But we should go all the way: 1) the JVM is interpreting bytecode, which is just scripting in disguise. Do not fall for the 'Write once run everywhere' and the alleged agility you get from a garbage collector. 2) to be ready for Enterprise use, we should use a Common Business-Oriented Language, or COBOL for that matter. I am sure the Sling community will catch up quickly with these changes and a re-implementation will take less than a decade or two. regards, Lars On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: (feel like POLLing and RTing these days - catching up with my Sling stuff ;-) Hi, The more I talk to Carsten, the more I realize that he and others are right - scripting is evil. Untyped variables, poorly-specified languages, weird I told you we're dynamic bugs...this does not really fit with our Enterprise strategy for Sling. With one exception, maybe...due to its inherent type safety, and available enterprise-level tooling, JSP is probably the only scripting language that deserves to stay. As this might be a bit controversial, I'm starting with a [POLL] - the idea would be to remove (or at least deprecate, as a first step) the pluggability of script engines, and keep only the JSP engine. Or maybe just keep a handful of officially approved script engines, marked as such with a cryptographically-safe value (based on a secret key shared by Sling PMC members only) in their manifest file. People can then move their code to Java servlets and maybe some JSP, enjoying the reduced number of bugs along the way. Or request their favorite scripting language to be validated, but we'd then need to define a test suite to verify our enterprise-level requirements for languages besides JSP. If we disagree on this (I hope we don't), we might envision two variants of Sling: the Enterprise version with no scripting (except JSP and validated engines, as indicated), and the shoot-yourself-in-the-foot version with no restrictions. And re-evaluate in a year from now. We might want to make a decision on this *before* our next release, to avoid having to deprecate stuff right after it. But right now this is just a [POLL] to gather opinions. WDYT? -Bertrand -- Lars Trieloff - http://lars.mp - Day Software - http://www.day.com
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
Excellent proposal! Very timely! +1. Scripting is evil. regards, david On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Torgeir Veimo torg...@pobox.com wrote: Well I think sling should be changed to work with flat file systems instead of JCR. Putting data into a typed node tree puts too many constraints on what data we can put into it. 2009/4/1 Felix Meschberger fmesc...@gmail.com Hi, Vidar Ramdal schrieb: On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Michael Dürig michael.due...@day.com wrote: +1 if we make Whitespace [1] the primary language for Sling. [1] http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ +1 I took a look at Whitespace, and liked it so much that I decided to port the entire Sling codebase to it. I'm sure you will agree, so as soon as I get my svn account, I'll start replacing the ugly, old-fashioned Java classes with clean, white Whitespace files. If you like clean languages you should consider my new Null proposal [1] currently being discussed. It is based on the Null programming language. Regards Felix [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/NullProposal -- Visit: http://dev.day.com/
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:55 AM, J Aaron Farr fa...@apache.org wrote: ...I think I'm going to quit replying to Bertand until April 2nd. I can't tell which of his emails are serious and which aren't. I'm still not sure about this one I'm sure Carsten would like it to be serious, but I'm a big fan of scripting languages ;-) Ok, I guess in this case the doors of the ihatescripting club will always be closed for you..sorry :) Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
Lars Trieloff wrote: Hi Bertrand, I see you are making progress. It looks like the fresh icelandic air is good for you. I totally agree that scripting is evil and that we need to make changes in order to make Sling more enterprise ready. But we should go all the way: 1) the JVM is interpreting bytecode, which is just scripting in disguise. Do not fall for the 'Write once run everywhere' and the alleged agility you get from a garbage collector. 2) to be ready for Enterprise use, we should use a Common Business-Oriented Language, or COBOL for that matter. I am sure the Sling community will catch up quickly with these changes and a re-implementation will take less than a decade or two. I we really want to go all the way we should rather create a DSL for Sling or provide the tooling so users can create their own DSL based on Sling. Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
1) the JVM is interpreting bytecode, which is just scripting in disguise. Do not fall for the 'Write once run everywhere' and the alleged agility you get from a garbage collector. 2) to be ready for Enterprise use, we should use a Common Business-Oriented Language, or COBOL for that matter. Regarding this, IMHO JVM is a strong requirement for Sling. I see a Sling distribution running on my ZX Spectrum 48K [1] (all in my dreams) :). Juanjo. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_ZX_Spectrum
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
2009/4/1 Juan José Vázquez Delgado juanjo.vazq...@gmail.com 1) the JVM is interpreting bytecode, which is just scripting in disguise. Do not fall for the 'Write once run everywhere' and the alleged agility you get from a garbage collector. 2) to be ready for Enterprise use, we should use a Common Business-Oriented Language, or COBOL for that matter. Regarding this, IMHO JVM is a strong requirement for Sling. I see a Sling distribution running on my ZX Spectrum 48K [1] (all in my dreams) :). Hmm, you all are too short-sighted: In my opinion, all this software stuff is way too fragile and dynamic. I want a dedicated Sling processor for my computer (let's call it CMS-DSP - Content Management System Digital Signal Processor). A benefit would be the major performance improvement, especially if we would finally hardwire the content structure (/content, /apps, /libs etc.) into dedicated flash memory. WDYT? Anyone with a degree in modern chip design on the list? Regards, Alex -- Alexander Klimetschek alexander.klimetsc...@day.com
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Felix Meschberger fmesc...@gmail.com wrote: If you like clean languages you should consider my new Null proposal [1] currently being discussed. It is based on the Null programming language. [1] http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/NullProposal Interesting project proposal... But I am not so sure where the mails would go if I send them to the dev-null@ mailing list. ;-) Regards, Alex -- Alexander Klimetschek alexander.klimetsc...@day.com
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
Carsten Ziegeler wrote: Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: The more I talk to Carsten, the more I realize that he and others are right - scripting is evil. ... With one exception, maybe...due to its inherent type safety, and available enterprise-level tooling, JSP is probably the only scripting language that deserves to stay. Hmm, what about the good old XSP from Cocoon? I think we should replace JSP with that. No, no, no. Neither of those are fun (although Fan might be). I'm sure the key to making this a huge hit is to use LOLCODE as the singular scripting language for Sling! We'll probably need to make a few extensions, but that is to be expected with such a new and innovative language. http://lolcode.com/ I can see it now, whole floors of cubicles with everyone ROFLTAO. And no more stressful code reviews, just constant giggling. A, the best code metric ever, the laugh meter level! Jim
Re: [POLL] getting rid of scripting (almost)
Juan José Vázquez Delgado schrieb: 1) the JVM is interpreting bytecode, which is just scripting in disguise. Do not fall for the 'Write once run everywhere' and the alleged agility you get from a garbage collector. 2) to be ready for Enterprise use, we should use a Common Business-Oriented Language, or COBOL for that matter. Regarding this, IMHO JVM is a strong requirement for Sling. I see a Sling distribution running on my ZX Spectrum 48K [1] (all in my dreams) :). I had one too – I (kind-of) learned BASIC programming on this box. I'd volunteer to implement the MagneticTapePersistenceManager for Jackrabbit if you're planning to migrate Sling to the ZX platform. -- Andreas -- Andreas Hartmann, CTO BeCompany GmbH http://www.becompany.ch Tel.: +41 (0) 43 818 57 01
