[SLUG] Hardware and driver licensing?
Slug people, I'd like to get a discussion going about licensing things through hardware or having licenses on drivers I think sometimes it is great like the commercial license for the GSM codec MS net meeting uses in the DSP chip in my quicknet card. But what really shits me is when a vendor has made Linux drivers but chooses not to release them (ether in binary or better open source) to everyone - just a few entities that pay and or sign documents. Is it right to make people pay for after-market Linux drivers from 3rd party vendors - when the 3rd parties (Im talking Xig, MetroX, OSS, Mandrake, the commercial CUPS driver ppl ... not to name names) just are people who have "relationships" with the hardware manufacturer. I bought my OSS license in 97 and told it would last forever (from the sales hype at the time). In 2000 they solicited more money just because I bought a newer crystal card than what I previously had. A few months ago I bought a Lexmark Z12 only to find out Mandrake has the drivers but I have to give them $150 for the boxed "commercial" version of their Linux distribution to get cups drivers. I paid OSS twice but I'll be dammed if I'll pay mandrake Inc to get my printer going. I feel like committing ethical software piracy. If Lexmark can give the driver source to Mandrake, I should get equal treatment - after all I bought their bloody hardware. Any one who would like to participate in such venture may send me package no questions asked :_) These 3rd party device vendors should just rack off. It should be free or not at all. It isn't right to have "Linux hardware taxes" to replace the Microsoft OEM tax when it eventually goes. Why do some vendors still need to guard the API to their hardware? Let me know what you all think. Cheers, Luke McKee Systems Administrator RTS Realtime Systems Pty Ltd Ph: +61 2 8259 3921 Fax: +61 2 9259 3999 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Install (hopefully) being done this week.
Hi, Thanks for the rather impressive replies I have received regarding my request for help with my install. The first reply I got was about 30 minutes after I posted to the list, and I'll take his offer of assistance. Thanks to everyone else, and if for whatever reason I can't link up with this person, I'll certainly keep all other offers 'in mind'. Again, Thanks. Ian -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hardware and driver licensing?
Luke McKee wrote: > These 3rd party device vendors should just rack off. It should be free or > not at all. It isn't right to have "Linux hardware taxes" to replace the > Microsoft OEM tax when it eventually goes. Why do some vendors still need to > guard the API to their hardware? > > Let me know what you all think. I agree with you in principle that you shouldn't have to pay extra to make something you've already bought work. However, I also think that we should take it upon ourselves to do a little research before buying hardware and make sure that the hardware will work without having to fork out extra for commercial drivers. >From what you've written at [1] and [2] below, it doesn't sound like you had done any research at all before purchased your hardware. [1] > I bought my OSS license in 97 and told it would last forever (from the sales > hype at the time). In 2000 they solicited more money just because I bought a > newer crystal card than what I previously had. [2] > A few months ago I bought a > Lexmark Z12 only to find out Mandrake has the drivers but I have to give > them $150 for the boxed "commercial" version of their Linux distribution to > get cups drivers. The first one might be forgiveable, given that you thought you already owned the commercial driver, but the second one is different. Visiting http://www.linuxprinting.org shows that it has the Z12 listed as 'paperweight' (see http://www.linuxprinting.org/printer_list.cgi?make=Lexmark for the entire list of Lexmark printers and http://www.linuxprinting.org/show_printer.cgi?recnum=486066 for the Z12 entry). One has to wonder why you would buy a printer with such a recommendation. Sorry if I sound harsh. I'm just telling it like I see it. Matthew -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] ask makefile (debug)
Dears List : I try to modify a open-source-project to fit my own use . But the source consists of many sub-directories : some are shared-libraries. Could I add -g(adding debug-information) to CFLAGS for those libraries ? Tks In Advance ! Henry
Re: [SLUG] Are these specs OK for RH7.2
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:02:44 +1000 Matthew Hannigan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > btw, you might want to wait for redhat 7.3; it's almost > out -- there are beta's available. Umm, if you are referring to skipjack, I was unaware it was a 7.3 beta Kevin -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Problems with RH7.1 kernel upgrade
Hey all. I wanted to upgrade my RH7.1 box's kernel to 2.4.18. I followed these steps: - download code - make config - make dep - make bzImage - cp arch/i386/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz-2.4.18 - make modules - make modules_install - editted /etc/lilo.conf - /sbin/lilo (which said the new image was installed) When I boot, I only get the old prompt for the old kernel. Any ideas? Thanks, Mikal -- Michael Still ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) UMT+10hrs -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Are these specs OK for RH7.2
> Umm, if you are referring to skipjack, I was unaware it was a 7.3 beta skipjack is indeed the 7.3 beta; I'm intrigued to know what you thought it was. :-) - Jeff -- "I came for the quality, but I stayed for the freedom." - Sean Neakums -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] (no subject)
Hi I have installed Debian 2.2r2 and trying to run x windows but i have had problems. first thing of all i have only installed linux once before (red hat) about 2 years ago so i know a little bit. x windows was a lot easier to get running. as far as i can get is running XF86Setup. setting up the right video card ect. but i can't get the mouse working and when i Run X. it says it can't find the mouse. as far as i know its a 2 button ms serial mouse. and i can't config it in XF86Setup. Is there some edit setup file or some one could tell me how of some way (Detailed) to deal with this problem thank u _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Problems with RH7.1 kernel upgrade
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Michael Still wrote: As requested, my lilo.conf says: root=/dev/hda map=/boot/map install=/boot/boot.b prompt timeout=50 message=/boot/message linear default=linux2418 image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.18 label=linux2418 read-only root=/dev/hda1 image=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.2-2 label=linux242 read-only root=/dev/hda1 > - /sbin/lilo (which said the new image was installed) And lilo -v -v -v says: LILO version 21.4-4, Copyright (C) 1992-1998 Werner Almesberger 'lba32' extensions Copyright (C) 1999,2000 John Coffman Reading boot sector from current root. Merging with /boot/boot.b Device 0x0301: BIOS drive 0x80, 128 heads, 531 cylinders, 63 sectors. Partition offset: 63 sectors. Secondary loader: 11 sectors. Device 0x0301: BIOS drive 0x80, 128 heads, 531 cylinders, 63 sectors. Partition offset: 63 sectors. Mapping message file /boot/message Device 0x0301: BIOS drive 0x80, 128 heads, 531 cylinders, 63 sectors. Partition offset: 63 sectors. Message: 46 sectors. Boot image: /boot/vmlinuz-2.4.18 Device 0x0301: BIOS drive 0x80, 128 heads, 531 cylinders, 63 sectors. Partition offset: 63 sectors. Setup length is 5 sectors. Mapped 1588 sectors. Added linux2418 * "ro root=301 BOOT_FILE=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.18" Boot image: /boot/vmlinuz-2.4.2-2 Device 0x0301: BIOS drive 0x80, 128 heads, 531 cylinders, 63 sectors. Partition offset: 63 sectors. Setup length is 10 sectors. Mapped 1537 sectors. Added linux242 "ro root=301 BOOT_FILE=/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.2-2" /boot/boot.0301 exists - no backup copy made. Map file size: 21504 bytes. Writing boot sector. Mikal -- Michael Still ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) UMT+10hrs -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Problems with RH7.1 kernel upgrade
On Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 06:46:12PM +1000, Michael Still wrote: > I wanted to upgrade my RH7.1 box's kernel to 2.4.18. I followed these > steps: Not sure if it's relevant, but you should probably copy the System.map from your 2.4.18 kernel source into /boot. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Are these specs OK for RH7.2
Thanks to all that replied. Yes I was not worried about the sound as the machine will be a server sitting with seven others so the less nosie it makes the better! > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Pia smith > Sent: Monday, 29 April 2002 3:40 PM > To: 'Simon Bryan'; 'Slug' > Subject: RE: [SLUG] Are these specs OK for RH7.2 > > > With fear of retribution in mind, I would suggest to replace all Ipex > Components ;) > > Seriously, I actually just put debian woody onto exactly the same machine > and had no problems at all. The only thing I haven't played with on my > sirius box is the sound (as it is only acting as a netsaint server, so who > cares ) > > Net mod i used was the eepro100, worked fine. > > Have fun > > Pia Smith > Ipex Engineer > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Simon Bryan > Sent: Monday, 29 April 2002 2:16 PM > To: Slug > Subject: [SLUG] Are these specs OK for RH7.2 > > > Hi all, > I am looking at putting RH7.2 on the following machine and wondered if > anyone had heard anything good or bad about the system. I would > be upgrading > to 512MB RAM and a 40GB 0r 60GB HDD. > > Case :Ipex Micro Office Case > Motherboard :Ipex Sirius with i845 chipset > CPU :Intel Pentium 4 - 1.6Ghz CPU Socket 478 > Memory :128mb PC 100/133 RAM > Hard Drive :20Gb IDE Hard Drive - 5400 RPM > Video Card :Ipex NVIDIA M64 32mb Video Card > Floppy :1.44 Mb 3.5" Floppy Drive > CD Rom :Ipex 52 spin CD Rom > Keyboard :Ipex 104 key PS/2 > Mouse :Ipex 2 button ergonomic PS/2 mouse with wheel > Network card:Onboard Intel Pro 10/100V integrated Lan > Sound Chip:Onboard ADI Soundmax AC'97 audio > Monitor :Ipex 15" Monitor 0.28 dot pitch V728 > > _ > > Simon Bryan > IT Manager - OLMC Parramatta > ICQ#:137562751 > http://www.olmc.nsw.edu.au > _ > > -- > SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ > More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug > -- > SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ > More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] (no subject)
On Mon, 2002-04-29 at 19:29, Jeff Ford wrote: > Is there some edit setup file or some one could > tell me how of some way (Detailed) to deal with this problem for some reason I am unaware of, in debian I've always had to create that /dev/mouse link manually. If it's a serial mouse you've got then it's /dev/ttyS0 or S1 (depending on which serial port you plugged it into) so just create the link yourself: "ln -s /dev/ttyS0 /dev/mouse" and X should start. Dave. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Re: Re: RFC: SLUG Mailing List FAQ Update
\begin{Jamie Wilkinson}
> This one time, at band camp, John Clarke wrote:
> >I agree, but only if we also encourage uploading keys to a public
> >keyserver. There's no point signing a message if the recipients don't
> >have the key and can't get it.
>
> Ever since the keysigning in July last year, I've kept a reasonably up to
> date SLUG keyring at this url:
>
> http://spacepants.org/slug/slug-keyring.gpg
madcow:~> gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.au.pgp.net --verbose --send-keys --no-options
--no-default-keyring --keyring ~/slug-keyring.gpg
[..]
Key block added to key server database.
New public keys added: 3
New userid's added: 1
New signatures added: 15
in future, people should upload the keys they sign / their own key
semi-regularly.
--
- Gus
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Are these specs OK for RH7.2
At 14:16 29/04/02 +1000, Simon Bryan wrote: >Hi all, >I am looking at putting RH7.2 on the following machine and wondered if >anyone had heard anything good or bad about the system. I would be upgrading >to 512MB RAM and a 40GB 0r 60GB HDD. Simon, The spec seems to look fine - the only concern is the hard drive size - has the motherboard got an integrated ATA100 controller ? The reason I ask is I fell into the trap of installing a pair of 40Gb Seagates ($168 odd each at the moment !!) and my bios would only recognise them as 32Gb An Ultra TX/2 ATA100 controller fixed that, although they are now hde and hdf...:-( Jon -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Problems with RH7.1 kernel upgrade
Michael Still <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Michael Still wrote: > > As requested, my lilo.conf says: ... > message=/boot/message [snip] > When I boot, I only get the old prompt for the old kernel. Probably because you forgot updating the /boot/message. It's a text file and its content is displayed above the lilo prompt. What does command "uname -a" say if you just press enter at lilo prompt? Cheers, TL -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Of web-cams with video recorder etc.
I have a Logitech Quickcam Web...i found linux drivers for it but the software isn't too fancy...it just opens an xwindow and displays the camera output, if you know how to alter the code you could have it send the output to a file instead...e.g. by using libjpg or something, have it dump to a jpg in your web server room folder and then all you would have to do is click the refresh button every few seconds. I dont know of any proper linux software to do this, but the windows software is quite good...comes with motion activation support... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ben Donohue Sent: Monday, 29 April 2002 9:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SLUG] Of web-cams with video recorder etc. Hi Slugs, I've had some strange goings on around the outside of my house lately. I started toying with the idea of setting up a hidden camera and video recorder with time lapse and or movement sensor etc. Then on top of this using it as a web-cam so that I can view my place from work etc. I've googled a bit but have only found lots of stuff based on windows so far, so I thought I'd hit the list. Has anyone had any experience with web-cams+video recorders+time lapse using Linux as the server? I don't have a lot of time to set this up myself and also not the expertise. For the right price I would be happy to pay for the help of someone to help get it going. I live in Ashbury (which is near Ashfield - inner west, Sydney). Thanks Ben -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Are these specs OK for RH7.2
On Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 09:54:50PM +1000, Jon Biddell wrote: > At 14:16 29/04/02 +1000, Simon Bryan wrote: > > The reason I ask is I fell into the trap of installing a pair of 40Gb > Seagates ($168 odd each at the moment !!) and my bios would only recognise > them as 32Gb An Ultra TX/2 ATA100 controller fixed that, although they > are now hde and hdf...:-( (kernel option, in the ATA/IDE section) Boot off-board chipsets first support CONFIG_BLK_DEV_OFFBOARD Normally, IDE controllers built into the motherboard (on-board controllers) are assigned to ide0 and ide1 while those on add-in PCI cards (off-board controllers) are relegated to ide2 and ide3. Answering Y here will allow you to reverse the situation, with off-board controllers on ide0/1 and on-board controllers on ide2/3. This can improve the usability of some boot managers such as lilo when booting from a drive on an off-board controller. If you say Y here, and you actually want to reverse the device scan order as explained above, you also need to issue the kernel command line option "ide=reverse". (Try "man bootparam" or see the documentation of your boot loader (lilo or loadlin) about how to pass options to the kernel at boot time.) Note that, if you do this, the order of the hd* devices will be rearranged which may require modification of fstab and other files. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Are these specs OK for RH7.2
I wouldn't have bothered with the extra expense of the card just make sure there is a /boot partition within the first 32gig or so The linux kernel is perfectly ok with ide disks it just ignores that the bios has to say on the matter My laptop has a 12gb disk in it bios only supports 8gb disks. But it makes no difference. On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Jon Biddell wrote: > At 14:16 29/04/02 +1000, Simon Bryan wrote: > >Hi all, > >I am looking at putting RH7.2 on the following machine and wondered if > >anyone had heard anything good or bad about the system. I would be upgrading > >to 512MB RAM and a 40GB 0r 60GB HDD. > > Simon, > > The spec seems to look fine - the only concern is the hard drive size - has > the motherboard got an integrated ATA100 controller ? > > The reason I ask is I fell into the trap of installing a pair of 40Gb > Seagates ($168 odd each at the moment !!) and my bios would only recognise > them as 32Gb An Ultra TX/2 ATA100 controller fixed that, although they > are now hde and hdf...:-( > > Jon > > -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hardware and driver licensing?
What's more, by buying only supported hardware, you encourage the good guys who DO release free drivers. It is for this reason that I will never buy an Nvidia card, no matter how many zillion polygons it does. Well, never unless they release free drivers. -- Rev Simon Rumble <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> www.rumble.net Send email with subject "send key pub" for public key. Given the choice between two evils, I pick the one I haven't tried before. - Mae West msg23027/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [SLUG] Question re Apple notebooks and Linux
On Sun, 2002-04-28 at 10:04, Tim Bateman wrote: > SLUG, > At the SLUG meeting there seemed to be quite a few Ti > Powerbooks and older iBooks floating around. How successfully are folks > using Linux on these machines ?, and what type of distribution are you > running ? (eg. Mandrake PPC, Debian PPC, Yellow Dog) I've never run Linux on an iBook or PowerBook but I've been a long-time Linux-on-PPC user, with desktops. As per the other replies Debian/Sid (unstable) is my distribution of choice although you may want to install from Woody and upgrade to Sid (Woody will be the next "stable" release). My sole frustration in the time of I've been using Linux on PPC hardware is the lack of flash. At first it's a minor annoyance, then over time it grows and gnaws at you. It is more frustrasting for my wife. At one time PPC used to lag i386 for software avalailability but now days on Debian software is available fairly concurrently with x86. Oh, there is also MoL (Mac on Linux) - allows you to run Mac OS in a window. Leaves WINE and friends for dead. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Question re Apple notebooks and Linux
Craige.. How far have you got with MoL? This sounds like a killer app. to me. As I get the hang of iApples with Debian I like them more and more. David. On 29 Apr 2002, Craige McWhirter wrote: > On Sun, 2002-04-28 at 10:04, Tim Bateman wrote: > > SLUG, > > At the SLUG meeting there seemed to be quite a few Ti > > Powerbooks and older iBooks floating around. How successfully are folks > > using Linux on these machines ?, and what type of distribution are you > > running ? (eg. Mandrake PPC, Debian PPC, Yellow Dog) > > I've never run Linux on an iBook or PowerBook but I've been a long-time > Linux-on-PPC user, with desktops. As per the other replies Debian/Sid > (unstable) is my distribution of choice although you may want to install > from Woody and upgrade to Sid (Woody will be the next "stable" release). > > My sole frustration in the time of I've been using Linux on PPC hardware > is the lack of flash. At first it's a minor annoyance, then over time it > grows and gnaws at you. It is more frustrasting for my wife. > > At one time PPC used to lag i386 for software avalailability but now > days on Debian software is available fairly concurrently with x86. > > Oh, there is also MoL (Mac on Linux) - allows you to run Mac OS in a > window. Leaves WINE and friends for dead. > -- > SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ > More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug > -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Squid/Firewall Helpppppp (Please)
Hi Guys, Have just installed RH 7.2 including squid 2.4 and firewall. Having many problems .. any help appreciated... Setup 1. Have internal Network using 192.168.x.x addresses 2. Have an email server outside of firewall delivering mail to internal network Problems ... 1. Cannot ping any ip addresses outside of Firewall 2. Cannot retreive email from email server 3. Cannot FTP/telnet to outside world 4. Have played with squid.conf and can access some web servers via http, however very, very slo, (like 5 minutes to fuly load the hotmail page) 4. Have tried to change some firewall parameters using 'setup', however it keeps defualting back to 'high' Any help appreciated (in plain english please) Cheers
RE: [SLUG] Squid/Firewall Helpppppp (Please)
ok firstly i need to know a few things because you were a little vague with your description of the problems. when you say you cannot ping any ip addresses outside the firewall does this mean you are trying to ping the address from a machine inside the firewall, or from the machine that is directly connected to the internet. if you mean the first option then chances are Masquerading isn't turned on. whats happening is when you try to ping a host outside you network, you may see your modem flash as the packets go out but you dont see flashing as packets come in...thats because the external host has no way of contacting your machine inside your firewall. if your machine has the address 192.168.1.2 and you try to ping www.hotmail.com then, as long as you have routing enabled on the gateway/firewall, the gateway/firewall will send the ping request out on the external interface but will maintain the source address as 192.168.1.2 and because of this there's no way that external host can return the message back to the originator unless masquerading is configured. Masquerading would simply replace the source address with the address of the external interface of the gateway. i know thats a little vague..sorry. The other option is that your firewall may not even have forwarding configured...this means that nothing from internal clients would be sent out on the external interface which could explain why you cant ping, telnet, or FTP and possibly why you cant access you email server. the second problem is that it looks like you may not have dns configured properly... I have no idea what errors your email server is generating but maybe its domain related which might also explain why squid takes so long to retrieve sites. This may or may not work but try running /etc/rc.d/init.d/named start I once had the same problem as you...squid taking ages to retrieve sites...i started named and it worked fine. Another fix may be to double check your dns settings. if you have a dialup internet account then you could possibly get away with leaving your dns settings blank that way when your dialup connection is established the settings will be retrieved from the dialup server. You should also double check your ACL entries. this defines who is allowed to use squid to surf the web, or download stuff, or what ever... basically it looks like: acl lan src 192.168.0.0/255.255.0.0 http_access allow lan what do you use this machine for? why did you install RedHat 7.2? what did it used to have installed? maybe if it was working before and not now then you over looked something during the RedHat setup. If its is quite simply a gateway/firewall and nothing much else then maybe you should think about using something like E-smith (now known as SME), or smooth wall..it does all the firewall configuration for you, mail server configuration, etc... its really quite good...i can supply a copy if you need. Anyway i hope this helps you understand a little better. I cant provide immediate solutions to the problems partly because i dont know anywhere near enough about whats actually happening, or what error codes your getting, and because i need to know more about your setup. Best of luck -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of ChrisjSent: Monday, 29 April 2002 11:52 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [SLUG] Squid/Firewall Helpp (Please) Hi Guys, Have just installed RH 7.2 including squid 2.4 and firewall. Having many problems .. any help appreciated... Setup 1. Have internal Network using 192.168.x.x addresses 2. Have an email server outside of firewall delivering mail to internal network Problems ... 1. Cannot ping any ip addresses outside of Firewall 2. Cannot retreive email from email server 3. Cannot FTP/telnet to outside world 4. Have played with squid.conf and can access some web servers via http, however very, very slo, (like 5 minutes to fuly load the hotmail page) 4. Have tried to change some firewall parameters using 'setup', however it keeps defualting back to 'high' Any help appreciated (in plain english please) Cheers
Re: [SLUG] Are these specs OK for RH7.2
Jeff Waugh wrote: > > >>Umm, if you are referring to skipjack, I was unaware it was a 7.3 beta > > skipjack is indeed the 7.3 beta; I'm intrigued to know what you thought it > was. :-) Well strictly speaking, they haven't given a number for the next version, so it skipjack could well be a beta for 8.0 :-) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hardware and driver licensing?
Luke McKee wrote: > Is it right to make people pay for after-market Linux drivers from 3rd party > vendors - when the 3rd parties (Im talking Xig, MetroX, OSS, Mandrake, the > commercial CUPS driver ppl ... not to name names) just are people who have > "relationships" with the hardware manufacturer. Whether people think there is a moral or ethical right involved depends on whether they are capitalists, marxist, anarchist etc and maybe on their religion. It's a personal thing. My own feeling is that that is perfectly fine as they ae offering a product to those that want to buy it. So long as they don't actually collude with a hardware manufacturer to deliberately force someone else out of the market. > I bought my OSS license in 97 and told it would last forever (from the sales > hype at the time). In 2000 they solicited more money just because I bought a > newer crystal card than what I previously had. Fine. You bought a lifelong licence to use what hardware or software you bought at the time. that is if you stayed with that original card you could use that and the supplied software forever. Ah but you bough a newer piece of hardware so you need a new licence for that. All's fair in love and war :-) > A few months ago I bought a > Lexmark Z12 only to find out Mandrake has the drivers but I have to give > them $150 for the boxed "commercial" version of their Linux distribution to > get cups drivers. I bought a Lexmark printer but I went for Postscript. I used the Lexmark drivers which I was able to download from their web site, install, and have a look at how they installed and what went where BEFORE I actually bought the printer. Being able to do that meant I bought a Lexmark (and the fact that the guy at Harris Tech looked up lots of Linux stuff for me to do with that printer - so I bought from them). The drivers allow you to use the printer to its full capability (eg duplex) but I could have still used it as a Postscript printer without installing any Lexmark drivers at all. The beauty of Postscript. I knew that the printer would work with Linux. > These 3rd party device vendors should just rack off. It should be free or > not at all. It isn't right to have "Linux hardware taxes" to replace the > Microsoft OEM tax when it eventually goes. Why do some vendors still need to > guard the API to their hardware? Just don't buy that hardware. Do your research before you buy hardware and - tell a vendor and a deal why you decidsed not to buy something if you were considering it. Give them feedback. I rang Harris Tech after a bought the printer and told the boss why I bought from them - it was because their staff took the time to tend to my Linux needs. But yes, in terms of hardware its something that Linux must watch out for. Hardware manufacturers might end up designing for specific OS's and leave Linux dead. Eg if they stop making printers with PS inside and put PDF inside. There is no support yet for PDF 5.0 in Linux. Mike -- Michael Lake University of Technology, Sydney Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Ph: 02 9514 1724 Fx: 02 9514 1628 Linux enthusiast, active caver and interested in anything technical. UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER = This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. = -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Are these specs OK for RH7.2
Jon Biddell wrote: > > The reason I ask is I fell into the trap of installing a pair of 40Gb > Seagates ($168 odd each at the moment !!) and my bios would only recognise > them as 32Gb An Ultra TX/2 ATA100 controller fixed that, although they > are now hde and hdf...:-( Did you try updating your bios? I bought a 60Gb IDE disk drive a few weeks ago. It wasn't recognised by my bios and I was on the verge of buying an ATA100 controller card when I decided to try upgrading my bios first. This worked for me, and so I didn't have to spend anything extra. The drive perhaps isn't as fast as it potentially could be, given that it's running on a 33Mhz bus instead of 100Mhz, but I'm not complaining. FWIW, I'm using a Celeron 300Mhz CPU on an Abit BH6 motherboard - a system that is over 3 years old now. Matthew -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hardware and driver licensing?
Luke McKee wrote: > > From what you've written at [1] and [2] below, it doesn't sound > > like you had done any research at all before purchased your > > hardware. > > LMC: True. But sooner or later Linux should stop being a DAYOR (Do at your > own risk) operating system. Many people - especially the newest members of > the list may not have had much choice in choosing what components went > inside their system. It may not be a good experience for a new Linux user to > realize they have to start paying out money to get everything working. Linux is still not a mainstream operating system. Many companies still make hardware suitable only for Windows. There's no point being in denial about it - you're just making life hard for yourself, and easier for those companies, who see that it doesn't matter that they don't cater for us Linux users because we buy the hardware anyway. > > One has to wonder why you would buy a printer with such a > > recommendation. > > LMC: Yes you were right = Impulse buy, but for $60 bucks could it be > forgiven? Depends on how much you would've had to pay for a printer that was supported by a free linux driver. You'd have to account for the $150 extra that you paid for the commercial Mandrake release. And what if you wanted to use something other than Mandrake? Like Debian, for example? > I don't think Linux will ever have plug and play ready decent drivers in the > kernel for all hardware. I have to patch iptables, SMC (net), ftape-4x, > quicknet, isdn-dov & capi, cups, sane (hp4200) + scarse just to all my > hardware working. There are always going to be extra drivers but as we agree > they should be free if available for Linux. Sounds like you've been doing quite a bit of impulse buying, by the sound of it. If you're happy doing the extra work to get it all going and paying a few extra $$ occasionally, fine. Me? I like the easy life. Matthew -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] How are you [OSP2002043000000106]
Dear [EMAIL PROTECTED], This is an automated note to let you know that we received your email message on 4/29/02 at 7:18:36 PM. A personal response from our Nordstrom.com Customer Service Specialists will follow. Here are some links to some information that may help you locate the answers to some of the more commonly asked questions. To view the status of your order: https://secure.nordstrom.com/youraccount/orderhistory To see general shipping information: http://store.nordstrom.com/content/pub/help/faq/shipping-methods.asp To see general ordering information: http://store.nordstrom.com/content/pub/help/ordering/how-to-order/how-to-order.asp Your email has been assigned to a Customer Service Specialist and will be attended to shortly. Our staff normally responds personally to email inquiries within one business day, excluding holidays. If you require immediate assistance, please call 1-888-282-6060. Sincerely, Customer Service NORDSTROM.com Visit us at our website at http://nordstrom.com -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Of web-cams with video recorder etc.
On Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 10:21:19PM +1000, Chris Barnes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > I have a Logitech Quickcam Web...i found linux drivers for it but the > software isn't too fancy...it just opens an xwindow and displays the camera > output, if you know how to alter the code you could have it send the output > to a file instead...e.g. by using libjpg or something, have it dump to a jpg > in your web server room folder and then all you would have to do is click > the refresh button every few seconds. > Motion detection should not be difficult to do: * start loop * take a photo, save as bitmap (it must be bitmap) * wait a few seconds * take another photo save it with different name (as bitmap) * now for each row and each column in both pics subtract each pixel. if each pixel is the same in both pics the result must be zero. if a pixel is different, the result is NOT NULL. sum/count the pixels which have changed and divide by all pixels (x100). * if percentage reached, raise alarm * go back to start loop. Now you have to make up for some wind/leaves etc so you must find a certain percentage when the "motion detector" should go off. You can test it with a paper attached to a string and move it in the field of vision of the camera, raising the size of the piece you are moving until you found the "go off" point. jobst -- My Carpenter has a 1956 VW Beetle. He still can go to any place in Australia, use any Oil, spark plugs, pertol, tires, wiper blades, etc available today with a car that old. If only software would be like that. __, Jobst Schmalenbach, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Technical Director _ _.--'-n_/ Barrett Consulting Group P/L & The Meditation Room P/L -(_)--(_)= +61 3 9532 7677, POBox 277, Caulfield South, 3162, Australia -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Of web-cams with video recorder etc.
Brilliant! still... it might take a bit of processing power? i'll add that to the project, but it's way down the list of essentials. for an outside camera you could possibly map out the areas that should not change and exclude large areas with trees etc from the calculations. then do the calcs again with a very low percentage just in case butterfly, leaf, cat, bird, etc. higher percentage for a person = alarm/record/save files to a different area. then if files there send emails, sms messages, etc. also browse to files and call up in browser. Ben. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Re: graphics-programming (debug)
Dear Thomas: Linux is multithreaded OS, I found I can telnet from another computer. Now I can debug at one computer ,see graphics-display produced by program-execution at another. Bestregards Henry - Original Message - From: Thomas Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 11:36 PM Subject: Re: debug > rhide? I'll check it out. Thanks for the tip Henry. I have an old > mono monitor but finding a mono pci card may be a problem. I had that > arrangement many years ago debugging dos/ early windows with 2 > monitors. Worked ok. > > > On Sunday 28 April 2002 19:08, henry wrote: > > Dear Thomas: > > I have the same need as you: > > to learn graphic-programming . > > > > I found that rhide seems a good tool to debug(it provide > > dual-display ,one for debugging,one for display),but I dont know > > where to buy monochrome display card & monochrome monitor. > > > > Could you share some debugging-technique if you find a good one > > ? > > > > > > Henry > > - Original Message - > > From: Thomas Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 5:39 AM > > Subject: debug > > > > > Hi, > > > I'm relatively new to Linux and SVGAlib and considering a small > > > project mostly for learning. > > > > > > Can someone suggest a debug program? or method? > > > > > > I've got gdb and have tried it some. System is SuSE 7.2. SVGAlib > > > is 1.4.3. > > > Tom > > > > > > ___ > > > Using RAGE driver, 8192KB. ChipID:33 MemType:4 > > > Rage: BIOS reports base frequency=28.636MHz Denominator= 31 > > > 309,300 309,309 > > > > > > - > > >- Unsubscribe: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Body: unsubscribe linux-svgalib > > > > -- > > Unsubscribe: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Body: unsubscribe linux-svgalib > > -- > Unsubscribe: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Body: unsubscribe linux-svgalib > > -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Squid/Firewall Helpppppp (Please)
Hi guys, I am not sure how to reply to a thread, so I hope Chris Barnes can see this message. I would like to thank him for his prompt reply and help. I will have a look at the suggestions to see if they fix the problems. Just some more info, (in case it helps with more suggestions). * We originally had RH5.2, on a P120 with 2 10Mb NICS, which has been happily working away for about 4 years. We have updated the hardware, so I thought I would update the OS. (The original box was set up by someone else who is no longer involved in this area). The orignal squid was V1.1. I tried to use the same settings from that squid.conf but the new version has major changes * The network setup is an internal network with the 192.168.5.x addresses. These go through the squid/proxy linx box to a router. The router then goes to an ISP * The email server is another linux box on the other side of the squid server * The pinging is happening from inside the network * The DNS question .. I read the squid manual and it states that it no longer uses an external DNS program, but it is internal. Therefore, I have done nothing with any DNS servers (Am I wrong in this). If I point the line is the squid,conf file to the external DNS program it complains that it cant find it. Again, thanks for your help. Cheers Chrisj
[SLUG] Linux and device drivers
> > I don't think Linux will ever have plug and play ready decent
> drivers in the
> > kernel for all hardware. I have to patch iptables, SMC (net),
> ftape-4x,
> > quicknet, isdn-dov & capi, cups, sane (hp4200) + scarse just to all
> my
> > hardware working. There are always going to be extra drivers but as
> we agree
> > they should be free if available for Linux.
>
To me this discussion represents some problems we are having as Linux
gets larger and more mainstream and has a massive plethora of devices in
need of a driver.This business of building device driver support into the
kernel is a good example, sure its all getting much more modular but
that's not my point.
Longer term what should the linux community do to make the production of
drivers easier??
Companies will always be reluctant to make the source to their drivers
freely available, they quite rightly believe it puts their intellectual
property at risk.
I'm not a software writer so I don't know what tools are already out on
the market for linux, free or otherwise. But if we build a simple driver
construction kit so that a manufacturer can produce a single precompiled
library and perhaps an xml document that tells the os how to install it
and use it.
One that is able to be utilised by any linux distribution and identify
driver version numbering.
I hate to say this but one of the elegance's of the windows driver model
is that its fairly simple to keep the number of files for the driver small
and there is a standard interface to driver installation that being the
inf file. Sure its not perfect and can screw up, but its easy to
distribute and install. It {the inf} even offer's some version control
and declaration of which versions of the OS can use the driver. Ontop of
this it is a compiled dll and whatever else so IP is protected.
How can linux achieve this level of simplicity in driver support /
production?? After all if its easy to build the drivers and protects their
IP then the manufacturers will build them to gain another competitive
advantage.
Arguments / feedback??
{puts on flameproof jacket and braces for impact}
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Mozilla trouble
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 06:45:57PM +1000, Peter Rundle ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > FWIW, the backslash is not valid in a URL. My guess: Netscape convert > > errant backslashes to forward slashes in such URLs, whereas Moz and > > Galeon do not. > > Just another example of M$ dirty "inovation". IE is "improved" so that > sites that > put backslashs in instead of forward still work. Then frontpage suddenly has > a bug in it that publishes links with backslashes instead of forward. I have already had two websites with this problem. A friend of mine has not had the time to write the proper web site, so it gets re-directed to the ISP's, who must have some sort of database driven server kind of thingy. and this is what it produces: see: http://www.raudzus.net [snip] > Now you know why we hate them so much! Yep. And I thought the bloody Germans hate M$ jobst -- Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly. -F1 __, Jobst Schmalenbach, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Technical Director _ _.--'-n_/ Barrett Consulting Group P/L & The Meditation Room P/L -(_)--(_)= +61 3 9532 7677, POBox 277, Caulfield South, 3162, Australia -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] xcdroast
Hi all, Got a strange thing happening with x-cdroast. A system with both a USB cd-writer and IDE reader does the following: When Reading from the usb device, the sector size reported is 2048 When reading from the IDE device the sector size reported is 2352 (audio cd??) (Though it sees the CD as data in the type field of the 'CD-Info' window) On a different system with IDE reader and RW, there is no problem and the sector size is reported as 2048 as expected. The log I get is as follows: (Note the difference in sectors - same cd in different device) (IDE CD-ROM using sg drivers) Tue Apr 30 12:38:36 2002 XCDR 0.98alpha9: Read data track /tmp/cdroast/track-01.img Tue Apr 30 12:38:36 2002 XCDR 0.98alpha9: Executing: /usr/lib/xcdroast-0.98/bin/xcdrwrap READCD dev= "0,0,0" sectors=0-95791 -s retries=32 f= "/tmp/cdroast/track-01.img" (USB CD-RW using usb/sg drivers) Tue Apr 30 12:44:35 2002 XCDR 0.98alpha9: Reading CD with toc file /tmp/cdroast/track.toc (bulk) Tue Apr 30 12:44:35 2002 XCDR 0.98alpha9: Read data track /tmp/cdroast/track-01.img Tue Apr 30 12:44:35 2002 XCDR 0.98alpha9: Executing: /usr/lib/xcdroast-0.98/bin/xcdrwrap READCD dev= "1,0,0" sectors=0-95804 -s retries=32 f= "/tmp/cdroast/track-01.img" Since the sector size is wrong, the image it makes is far too large (for a data cd). Any ideas ? Regards, Andy -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Of web-cams with video recorder etc.
On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 12:51:32PM +1000, Ben Donohue ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Brilliant! > still... it might take a bit of processing power? Not really. Considering that a camera produces bitmaps of 640x480 you only have to calculate 307200 pixels If you worried about that just write a little perl script with a for loop and some silly little calcuation ($val = $somenum- $i) and take the time before and after the loop. I do not think that the time function is actaully fine enough to print out a difference . jobst -- Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL. __, Jobst Schmalenbach, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Technical Director _ _.--'-n_/ Barrett Consulting Group P/L & The Meditation Room P/L -(_)--(_)= +61 3 9532 7677, POBox 277, Caulfield South, 3162, Australia -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Highly Technical Talk Offers / Requests?
Hi all, Working on ideas for upcoming SLUG meetings, I'd like to guage how many people have highly technical talk ideas [1] that they wouldn't normally see as appropriate for a SLUG audience. Also interested in *requests* for highly technical talks, too. Don't be alarmed - this will be tempered by introductory material; I'm just interested to see what we've got available first. Thanks, - Jeff [1] System administration, development, deeply Free Software oriented (perhaps not of interest to a general audience), etc. -- "Ever since GNOME development began, I have urged people to aim to make it as good as the Macintosh. To try to be like Windows is to try for second-best." - Richard Stallman -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Highly Technical Talk Offers / Requests?
On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 04:36:03PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Hi all, > > Working on ideas for upcoming SLUG meetings, I'd like to guage how > many people have highly technical talk ideas [1] that they wouldn't > normally see as appropriate for a SLUG audience. Also interested in > *requests* for highly technical talks, too. I'd actually be interested in a talk of some kind about choosing and understanding free software licensing, which is technical in some sense, and possibly not interesting to the majority of SLUG members. I could possibly give this speech after some research. -Mary. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Highly Technical Talk Offers / Requests?
> I'd actually be interested in a talk of some kind about choosing and > understanding free software licensing, which is technical in some sense, > and possibly not interesting to the majority of SLUG members. That's exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. I'd consider doing something on Free Software project management. Certainly die-hard Free Software stuff, but not very technical. - Jeff -- "When there's public debate and mass hysteria, that's when the patches roll in." - Michael Meeks -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Highly Technical Talk Offers / Requests?
On Tue, 2002-04-30 at 16:36, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Hi all, > > Working on ideas for upcoming SLUG meetings, I'd like to guage how many > people have highly technical talk ideas [1] that they wouldn't normally see > as appropriate for a SLUG audience. Also interested in *requests* for highly > technical talks, too. > > Don't be alarmed - this will be tempered by introductory material; I'm > just interested to see what we've got available first. > System monitoring, performance monitoring and alerting (netsaint/cricket etc) I could give the talk (with some research) but I think it would be nice to have some more 'sysadmin' type talks. -- Tony Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tel : +61-(0)2-9500-9996 Mobile: +61-(0)4-2521-9996 GnuPG Key : 1024D/B5657C8B Key fingerprint = 9ED8 59CC C161 B857 462E 51E6 7DFB 465B B565 7C8B -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Highly Technical Talk Offers / Requests?
This one time, at band camp, Jeff Waugh wrote: >Working on ideas for upcoming SLUG meetings, I'd like to guage how many >people have highly technical talk ideas [1] that they wouldn't normally see >as appropriate for a SLUG audience. Also interested in *requests* for highly >technical talks, too. I have ideas for a talk on building network infrastructure, covering bootstrap to maintenance. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://spacepants.org/jaq.gpg Fat ass Cartman was Not on the school bus today. What a big fat turd. -- Kyle Broflowski, South Park -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Highly Technical Talk Offers / Requests?
> System monitoring, performance monitoring and alerting (netsaint/cricket > etc) > > I could give the talk (with some research) but I think it would be nice to > have some more 'sysadmin' type talks. Cool; there's actually been an earlier offer for a talk on netsainty stuff as well, so perhaps you could do a tag-team presentation. ;-) - Jeff [ who would like to encourage non-ctte posts on this thread ;-) ] -- Interplanetary Pants -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Highly Technical Talk Offers / Requests?
On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 04:36:03PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > Working on ideas for upcoming SLUG meetings, I'd like to guage how many > people have highly technical talk ideas [1] that they wouldn't normally see > as appropriate for a SLUG audience. Also interested in *requests* for highly > technical talks, too. Mike Gigante of SGI gave an excellent XFS talk that went really in-depth to it and convinced me that XFS rocked out[1]. It didn't just say "XFS is good. XFS does journalling"; it went in-depth into the design of every single aspect, even stuff like real-time sections. I was stunned to see this sort of talk at LUV (as opposed to "Playing DVDs Under Linux"), and IMHO it's the best talk I've seen, but bear in mind that I've never been to a conference[2]. > "Ever since GNOME development began, I have urged people to aim to make >it as good as the Macintosh. To try to be like Windows is to try for > second-best." - Richard Stallman Out-of-the-box Windows isn't exactly a bad thing for new users. Having it locked in to Windows style tho (*cough*fvwm95*cough*) is, however, a Bad Thing. [1]: As any #slug member can tell you. [2]: CALU: down the road but didn't know about it; LCA 2001: no money; LCA 2002: had money but conflicted with school -- Daniel Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://raging.dropbear.id.au KDE Developer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.kde.org Kopete: Multi-protocol IM clienthttp://www.kdedevelopers.net/kopete/ msg23051/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
