Re: [SLUG] [ot] MIMO wireless access points

[James Gray]

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:24 am, Richard Hayes wrote:
> Dear list,
>
> The new multiple input multiple output (mimo) wireless equipment
> promises to get 802.11 to work better than the existing gear.
>
> Has anyone got experience with  any of the new access points?
>
> Is there any products / smart antennas that can be used under Linux?

I believe the access points work transparently with existing 802.11 clients.  
Unless it's just a ratification/standardisation of the multi-channel frufru 
various manufacturers have (like 108Mbps wifi...but only if all clients are 
the same manufacturer as the access point and all running on that other OS, 
etc.).

I've got a few Cisco Aironet 1200's at work that have two antennas and 
distribute the transmission/reception duties between them to achieve certain 
configurable outcomes (maximise throughput/availability etc).  However, I 
don't believe that is what the MIMO stuff does.

Cheers,

James
-- 
Nothing recedes like success.
-- Walter Winchell


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Re: Distro names for consumers [Was: [SLUG] Re: Interesting view]

[Nicholas Tomlin]

Julio,,

- 

As long as this is true, you'll need to market the idea better than MS
does with Windows, because their system might not work properly every
time, but at least they were the ones who *defined* what user-friendly
means.


I remember using an Apple with a 'user friendly' GUI long before windows was 
invented by Miocrsfot..
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Re: [SLUG] Unwanted ads

[john gibbons]

Careless of me: yes, Thunderbird.

John.

Matthew Hannigan wrote:


On Fri, Mar 17, 2006 at 10:59:44AM +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 


I think he means spam like this (i get them alot also)...
   



Well yeah, I get hundreds per day.

But firefox?  Webmail?
Or Thunderbird perhaps?

Not trying to be pedantic; trying to make sure he
hasn't got some sort of malware firefox toolbar.

Matt


 



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Re: [SLUG] Unwanted ads

[john gibbons]

Via email, Matthew. Just got another half dozen. Sometimes exactly the 
same advt repeated 3 or 4 times.


John.

Matthew Hannigan wrote:


On Fri, Mar 17, 2006 at 08:05:02AM +1100, john gibbons wrote:
 

Some swine marketing viagra and associated products sends me several 
advts each day.It is the only advertiser to get to me via Firefox being 
run in Fedora 4. His advts vary at times and claim to come from 
different sources and are programmed to vary some content via random 
ommissions of letters in words, different home addresses, etc. However, 
the similarities are strong enough to suggest a single source.


Firefox recognises most of them as junk but misses on others. I identify 
all of them as junk and immediately delete them. Is there some way I can 
block them from even arriving in the first place?
   



I'm confused; is this in email or from websites or out of nowhere? (!)




 



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Re: [SLUG] IBM R32 and Linux

[Jeff Waugh]

> IBM Laptop R32 P4-M/1800 256MB 28GB DVD 14" Wireless XP
> 
> I'm thinking of bidding on one of these beasts...
> 
> any linux problems i should know about??
> 
> I'll be using Ubuntu.

If you have the option, I'd suggest going for a T series instead of the R
series. The Ts are tougher and have better awesomeness inside (generally
they use all Centrino innards, which is great for Linux). The X series is
cool too, if you like the 12" ultraportable form factor (sweet if you travel
a lot).

(Thinkpads in the X and T series are the most popular laptops among Ubuntu
developers, so it's hard to go wrong with those!)

- Jeff

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Re: [SLUG] IBM R32 and Linux

[Shakthi Kannan]

Hi David,

--- David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> any linux problems i should know about??
> I'll be using Ubuntu.

Shouldn't be any. Thinkpads are awesome machines for
running GNU/Linux.

http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/ibm.html

There is also a GNU/Linux Thinkpad mailing list:

http://mailman.linux-thinkpad.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-thinkpad

Have fun,

SK

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Software Engineer, Hexaware Technologies
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__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
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[SLUG] IBM R32 and Linux

[David]

IBM Laptop R32 P4-M/1800 256MB 28GB DVD 14" Wireless XP

I'm thinking of bidding on one of these beasts...

any linux problems i should know about??

I'll be using Ubuntu.
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[SLUG] looking for a room...

[Peter baker]

I have just been told that the room I'm renting is part of the house that is about to be sold
 
Have to move out in a month
 
Looking for a room around north ryde
 
Would love to live with fellow penguin lovers...-- www.peterbaker.id.au 
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Re: "Ubuntu" [was: [SLUG] Re: Interesting view]

[Jeff Waugh]

> And since this is ex South Africa, and ex Zulu, and since there are what
> 15, 20, something official languages, and the word and permutations
> permiate the languages trying to narrow down the definition is silly. It
> means 'people', the nuances depend on your viewpoint.

... and I like Demsmond Tutu's nuances, myself.

- Jeff

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Re: "Ubuntu" [was: [SLUG] Re: Interesting view]

[jam]

On Thursday 16 March 2006 13:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Even on their web site they find it necessary to explain the meaning of
> > the word. All nice touchy feely motherhood stuff that says nothing
>
> You might want to try telling that to the people who suggest that we could
> never possibly live up to the word, "Ubuntu", due to its depth of meaning
> and importance to so many people. That's something we wrestle with from
> time to time, and was a big question mark over choosing the name at all.
>
> I'm not sure I can find a useful enough comparison with an English word
> that has quite the same emotional and spiritual depth.
>
> We explain the meaning of the word because it is central to what we want to
> be. We could have used some made up conglomeration of suffixes and prefixes
> that had some techno-utopian bent and no trademark or domain coverage - but
> instead we chose a word that *means* something. Something worth sharing.
> Something worth striving for.
>
> Thanks, but "Ubuntu" means a heck of a lot more than "Linux Home".

And since this is ex South Africa, and ex Zulu, and since there are what 15, 
20, something official languages, and the word and permutations permiate the 
languages trying to narrow down the definition is silly. 
It means 'people', the nuances depend on your viewpoint.
James
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Re: [SLUG] New User's Frustration

[cmyers]

Yep.. Thats why my Dlink is merely a wireless access point for me.. The
real work is done by an Ubuntu server ;)



> On 3/17/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Dlink aint that crash hot also :( Ive had a lot of issues with mine :/
>
> Merely to relate to my experience, I got sick of buying a home
> broadband device only to find it had problems and bugs.
>
> IN the end I bite the bullet and bought a business grade unit. I
> bought a Cisco 837 December last year, and havent looked back since.
> Although it wasn't cheap, but then again when has something Cisco ever
> been cheap. I just wish I would of bought one in the first place
> rather then go through several different brands/models of home type
> equipment.
>
> All I need now is a degree in using all the functions and services the
> thing offers. Which reminds me I need to buy a new IOS (as 12.3 or
> 12.4 would be nice for some features I wish to implement).
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Re: [SLUG] New User's Frustration

[Michael Fox]

On 3/17/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dlink aint that crash hot also :( Ive had a lot of issues with mine :/

Merely to relate to my experience, I got sick of buying a home
broadband device only to find it had problems and bugs.

IN the end I bite the bullet and bought a business grade unit. I
bought a Cisco 837 December last year, and havent looked back since.
Although it wasn't cheap, but then again when has something Cisco ever
been cheap. I just wish I would of bought one in the first place
rather then go through several different brands/models of home type
equipment.

All I need now is a degree in using all the functions and services the
thing offers. Which reminds me I need to buy a new IOS (as 12.3 or
12.4 would be nice for some features I wish to implement).
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Re: [SLUG] Unwanted ads

[cmyers]

Ahh yeah good call.. I didnt think of that.




> On Fri, Mar 17, 2006 at 10:59:44AM +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> I think he means spam like this (i get them alot also)...
>
> Well yeah, I get hundreds per day.
>
> But firefox?  Webmail?
> Or Thunderbird perhaps?
>
> Not trying to be pedantic; trying to make sure he
> hasn't got some sort of malware firefox toolbar.
>
> Matt
>
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>


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Re: [SLUG] New User's Frustration

[cmyers]

Dlink aint that crash hot also :( Ive had a lot of issues with mine :/


> For ADSL I would strongly recommend that you install a  dhcp router - get
> a wireless one so you can connect wireless devices later.
> Let the router manage the connection to the internet and then you will
> have an easier life.
> I recommend Dlink( keep away from netgear!)
> for under $100.00 you will get things moving. Just plug into the ethernet
> port of the router and configure it with a web browser (windows or linux
> or mac).
>
>
> -
> On Yahoo!7
>  Music: Create your own personalised radio station. --
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Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view

[O Plameras]

Terry Collins wrote:

O Plameras wrote:

  

The  major reason why we "standardise"  is due to cost. It is not due to
the whims and caprices of IT dept.



I prefer to buy stuff that works. 
  


Then "standardised" on "stuff that works". You have what you want on top 
of economy of scale.



O Plameras

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[SLUG] [Fwd: US-CERT Technical Cyber Security Alert TA06-075A -- Adobe Macromedia Flash Products Multiple Vulnerabilities]

[Howard Lowndes]

This one is dangerous.

OK, ppl know to update their opsys, but how many bother to update their 
plugins.



 Original Message 
Subject: US-CERT Technical Cyber Security Alert TA06-075A -- Adobe 
Macromedia Flash Products Multiple Vulnerabilities

Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 18:14:37 -0500
From: CERT Advisory 
Organization: CERT(R) Coordination Center - +1 412-268-7090
To: cert-advisory@cert.org


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



National Cyber Alert System

 Technical Cyber Security Alert TA06-075A


Adobe Macromedia Flash Products Contain Vulnerabilities

   Original release date: March 16, 2006
   Last revised: --
   Source: US-CERT


Systems Affected

   Microsoft Windows, Apple Mac OS X, Linux, Solaris, or other operating
   systems with any of the following Adobe Macromedia products installed:
 * Flash Player 8.0.22.0 and earlier
 * Flash Professional 8
 * Flash Basic
 * Flash MX 2004
 * Flash Debug Player 7.0.14.0 and earlier
 * Flex 1.5
 * Breeze Meeting Add-In 5.1 and earlier
 * Adobe Macromedia Shockwave Player 10.1.0.11 and earlier

   For more complete information, refer to Adobe Security Bulletin
   APSB06-03.


Overview

   There are critical vulnerabilities in Macromedia Flash player and
   related software. Exploitation of these vulnerabilities could allow a
   remote, unauthenticated attacker to execute arbitrary code or cause a
   denial of service on a vulnerable system.


I. Description

   Adobe Security Bulletin APSB06-03 addresses vulnerabilities in
   Macromedia Flash Player and related software. Further information is
   available in the following US-CERT Vulnerability Note:

   VU#945060 - Adobe Macromedia Flash products contain multiple
   vulnerabilities

   Several vulnerabilities in Adobe Macromedia Flash products may allow a
   remote attacker to execute arbitrary code on a vulnerable system.
   (CVE-2006-0024)

   Several operating systems, including Microsoft Windows (see Microsoft
   Security Advisory 916208), have vulnerable versions of Flash installed
   by default. Systems with Flash-enabled web browsers are vulnerable. An
   attacker could host a specially crafted Flash file on a web site and
   convince a user to visit the site.


II. Impact

   A remote, unauthenticated attacker could execute arbitrary code with
   the privileges of the user. If the user is logged on with
   administrative privileges, the attacker could take complete control of
   an affected system. An attacker may also be able to cause a denial of
   service.


III. Solution

Apply Updates

   Adobe has provided the updates for these vulnerabilities in APBS06-03.

Disable Flash

   Please see Microsoft Security Advisory 916208 for instructions on how
   to disable Flash on Microsoft Windows. For other operating systems and
   web browsers, please contact the appropriate vendor.


Appendix A. References

 * Macromedia - APSB06-03: Flash Player Update to Address Security
   Vulnerabilities -
   

 * US-CERT Vulnerability Note VU#945060 -
   

 * CVE-2006-0024 -
   

 * Microsoft Security Advisory (916208) -
   


 

   The most recent version of this document can be found at:

 
 

   Feedback can be directed to US-CERT Technical Staff. Please send
   email to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> with "TA06-075A Feedback VU#945060" in the
   subject.
 

   For instructions on subscribing to or unsubscribing from this
   mailing list, visit .
 

   Produced 2006 by US-CERT, a government organization.

   Terms of use:

 
 


Revision History

   Mar 16, 2006: Initial release




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When you want a computer system that works,

TEXT, Text, text please. Re: [SLUG] New User's Frustration

[Terry Collins]

someone  wrote:
> *
> *
> 
> *Hello Everybody,*

AAARGH, just a genetle reminder to all that TEXT is the way to go if you
want peeps to answer your requests.

Yes, Thunderbird may display all that crap[1], but my brain goes nope.

Can I train thunderbird to just junk all embellshiments? (already strips
images.)



-- 
   Terry Collins {:-)}}}
   email: terryc at woa.com.au  www: http://www.woa.com.au
   Wombat Outdoor Adventures 

 "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
  security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
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Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view

[Terry Collins]

O Plameras wrote:

> The  major reason why we "standardise"  is due to cost. It is not due to
> the whims and caprices of IT dept.

I prefer to buy stuff that works. SOE can impose shite.
e.g works brilliant under windows[1], but buggy under *nix.

[1] actually, nothing works brilliant under windows and the particular
instances that come to mind, it was novell that it worked under.


-- 
   Terry Collins {:-)}}}
   email: terryc at woa.com.au  www: http://www.woa.com.au
   Wombat Outdoor Adventures 

 "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
  security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
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Re: [SLUG] Unwanted ads

[Matthew Hannigan]

On Fri, Mar 17, 2006 at 10:59:44AM +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I think he means spam like this (i get them alot also)...

Well yeah, I get hundreds per day.

But firefox?  Webmail?
Or Thunderbird perhaps?

Not trying to be pedantic; trying to make sure he
hasn't got some sort of malware firefox toolbar.

Matt

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Re: [SLUG] New User's Frustration

[linley caetan]

For ADSL I would strongly recommend that you install a  dhcp router - get a wireless one so you can connect wireless devices later.Let the router manage the connection to the internet and then you will have an easier life.I recommend Dlink( keep away from netgear!)for under $100.00 you will get things moving. Just plug into the ethernet port of the router and configure it with a web browser (windows or linux or mac).
		On Yahoo!7 
Music: Create your own personalised radio station. 
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Re: [SLUG] Unwanted ads

[cmyers]

I think he means spam like this (i get them alot also)...



 w C n i g a n I r i t s $9 l 9 (1 4R 0  b p z i v l q l k s c )
b V d a p I t i e u v m $10 c 5 (30 1N   m p n i y l g l r s d )
u V q i k a d g g r h a $6 b 9 ( 5t 10  l p g i w l j l s s i )

Many tO other, V fL isit our s 6A ite 
and S 2Z ave o h1 ver 50 Im %



I get them also, (mind you I havent set up spamassasin on my server as
yet).. But they get through many spam-filter due to their 'clever'
rewording.


I would think if its coming from the same IP or IP range just block that
in your ipfilter or something similar..??




> On Fri, Mar 17, 2006 at 08:05:02AM +1100, john gibbons wrote:
>> Some swine marketing viagra and associated products sends me several
>> advts each day.It is the only advertiser to get to me via Firefox being
>> run in Fedora 4. His advts vary at times and claim to come from
>> different sources and are programmed to vary some content via random
>> ommissions of letters in words, different home addresses, etc. However,
>> the similarities are strong enough to suggest a single source.
>>
>> Firefox recognises most of them as junk but misses on others. I identify
>> all of them as junk and immediately delete them. Is there some way I can
>> block them from even arriving in the first place?
>
> I'm confused; is this in email or from websites or out of nowhere? (!)
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [SLUG] Unwanted ads

[Matthew Hannigan]

On Fri, Mar 17, 2006 at 08:05:02AM +1100, john gibbons wrote:
> Some swine marketing viagra and associated products sends me several 
> advts each day.It is the only advertiser to get to me via Firefox being 
> run in Fedora 4. His advts vary at times and claim to come from 
> different sources and are programmed to vary some content via random 
> ommissions of letters in words, different home addresses, etc. However, 
> the similarities are strong enough to suggest a single source.
> 
> Firefox recognises most of them as junk but misses on others. I identify 
> all of them as junk and immediately delete them. Is there some way I can 
> block them from even arriving in the first place?

I'm confused; is this in email or from websites or out of nowhere? (!)



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[SLUG] New User's Frustration

[Bolero]

Title: What are we doing today, brain 

















Hello
Everybody,
 
I am new to
Linux (RH C4) and after some weeks of stuffing around to get even the
basics
working, I am asking for help.
 
My setup:
 
Mobo        D945GTP
(onboard Sigmatel audio, onboard video)
Processor
Intel P640
RAM
1GB, 2GB L2 Cache
HDD     2
off SATAII, WD 160GB in raid 0, incl. prim. Active C:/ partition with
XP Pro
SP1
HDD     1
off SATAII, SG 160GB NTFS, 1 swap partition 2GB, 1 Linux root partition
15GB)
Monitor
Hitachi
CML171SXW
Modem External Siemens SpeedStream 4200 (as
supplied by
Telstra Bigpond), presently used via USB connection, Ethernet connected
to 2nd
PC for  2nd Internet
connection.
 
I bought
the ‘RH Fedora 4 Unleashed’ book incl. DVD, kernel 2.6.11. 
The installation as 2nd OS went
OK, partitioning and formatting 2 GB swap and 15GB root partition (both
primary) with Disk Druid and using Linux front end for selecting either
OS
(Windows XP Pro SP1 or Linux RH Core 4). 
I got the following ‘issues’:
 
Problem 1
Can’t establish a working ADSL Internet
connection
Problem 2
Video only works in 1280x1024
resolution, for me too small to be comfortable with
Problem 3
Can’t get audio working
 
Problem 1 –
ADSL Connection
The
installation program does not ask me to setup my network connection,
which I
tried under ‘Setup Internet Connection’ as well as ‘Network’.  My modem is not listed and that’s were the
trouble starts.
Somebody
advised that I should setup the connection using DHCP instead of PPPoA
(listed
when I access the modem thru Windows). 
Even with the 1200 odd pages book I got, the instructions are to
me at
least very confusing.  The same applies
to Stanton Finleys installation notes.
It appears
that I have to download and install some program.  With
the internet not working under Linux
this is not possible.
 
Problem 2 –
Monitor Resolution
The monitor’s
HorizSync frequency range is picked up by the installation program
incorrectly.  As soon as I change this to
the correct info as per manual, I get an ‘Out of Range’ signal after
reboot.
The
vertical refresh rate is correct and I have not changed this one.
The
monitor’s support pixel resolution I had to change to cover all
resolutions
available in acc. with the manual.
I tried and
re-installed Linux at least 15 times with various configurations of the
/etc/X11/xorg.conf file, both altering horizontal frequency as well as
pixel
modes.  The only resolution that works is
the monitor’s native one, i.e. 1280x1024.
 
Problem 3 –
Audio
During the
installation I am ask to test sound, which does not work. 
I get the message ‘Audio will not be
available on your system’.  No further
info, that’s it.
I have
installed as part of the mobo drivers Sigmatel as the audio driver, in
acc.
with the mobo installation instructions.
 
On the
Intel website, for my motherboard, there is a network, video and audio
driver for
Red Hat Linux available, (…._1.3_RHEL4_U1.TAR.GZ).
Should I
download and install the individual drivers in Windows?  Will
my Windows OS still work? What chance is
there that the Linux RH problems I have will be fixed?  I
have to say that at this stage I cannot
afford to loose Windows since this is the only thing I have that works.
 
To make
matters even worse, two days ago I was changing from Linux (with the
above hiccups)
to Windows using Acronis OS Selector when suddenly nothing worked.  After re-booting I got a black screen with a
blinking underscore cursor on the top left, nothing else.
The only
way to get into the system was by using an Acronis Disk Director Boot
Disk
which got me going again, that is Windows only. 
When I select Linux as the OS, I’ll get a black screen with
‘Grub_’ on
the top left, nothing else.
If I
deactivate Acronis OS Selector, I get a black screen with ‘Grub_”.  Going in circles, must have to do something
with the MBR, don’t know how to wipe it.
 
Well this
is my present situation, a pretty mess; not to mention the hours spent
during
the last six weeks.  
 
Somehow I
am a bit weary, Stanton Finleys installation notes in the beginning
point out
that the installation of Linux is easy and can be done by everyone;
however
there are apparently 45 pages of installation notes needed to get the
job done!
 
Sorry, I am
to say the least a bit frustrated and would appreciate some help.
 
Wilfried
 
 




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Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view

[O Plameras]

Bret Comstock Waldow wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 03:54, O Plameras wrote:

  

This is cynical attitude to take towards IT depts.

The  major reason why we "standardise"  is due to cost. It is not due to
the whims and caprices of IT dept.



This may be true (I'm not disputing it).  I can, however, point out another 
reason IT depts. choose software - management, and in particular, poor 
management.


I've often seen managers and executive staff make decisions, some of which 
make sense by their criteria, and others which turn out to be disastrous.  
But it's often an uninformed decision - people without a better understanding 
of their own are swayed by advertising and herd instincts - they have no 
other inputs.
  


I suspect the spreadsheet is right but project management  is broken.

Hope this helps.

O Plameras


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[SLUG] [ot] MIMO wireless access points

[Richard Hayes]

Dear list,

The new multiple input multiple output (mimo) wireless equipment 
promises to get 802.11 to work better than the existing gear.


Has anyone got experience with  any of the new access points?

Is there any products / smart antennas that can be used under Linux?

regards,

Richard Hayes
Nada Marketing

begin:vcard
fn:Richard Hayes
n:Hayes;Richard
org:Nada Marketing
adr:Office: Level 5, 203- Level 5, 203-233 New South Head Rd;;Mail: PO Box 12 Gordon 2072;Edgecliff;NSW;2027;Australia
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:Director
tel;work:+(61-2) 9436 0121
tel;cell:+(61) 0414 618 425
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.nada.com.au
version:2.1
end:vcard

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Re: [SLUG] Unwanted ads

[Russell Davie]

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:05:02 +1100
john gibbons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Some swine marketing viagra and associated products sends me several 
> advts each day.It is the only advertiser to get to me via Firefox being 
> run in Fedora 4. His advts vary at times and claim to come from 
> different sources and are programmed to vary some content via random 
> ommissions of letters in words, different home addresses, etc. However, 
> the similarities are strong enough to suggest a single source.
> 
> Firefox recognises most of them as junk but misses on others. I identify 
> all of them as junk and immediately delete them. Is there some way I can 
> block them from even arriving in the first place?
> 
> John.
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Can recommend the full spamassassin / pyzor/ razor/dcc package.  

I put it on my laptop last Sunday, and it works a treat. 

 It reads the headers and content and refers to a  server(s) to check if the 
email has been reported as spam.  

Once a day crontab  runs a script to retrain Spamassassin for the missed emails.

Its reduced spam to about 5-10%.

I have noticed if the spam is resent the next day, it is caught. 

HTH

- Russell
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[SLUG] Unwanted ads

[john gibbons]

Some swine marketing viagra and associated products sends me several 
advts each day.It is the only advertiser to get to me via Firefox being 
run in Fedora 4. His advts vary at times and claim to come from 
different sources and are programmed to vary some content via random 
ommissions of letters in words, different home addresses, etc. However, 
the similarities are strong enough to suggest a single source.


Firefox recognises most of them as junk but misses on others. I identify 
all of them as junk and immediately delete them. Is there some way I can 
block them from even arriving in the first place?


John.
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Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view

[Bret Comstock Waldow]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 03:54, O Plameras wrote:

> This is cynical attitude to take towards IT depts.
>
> The  major reason why we "standardise"  is due to cost. It is not due to
> the whims and caprices of IT dept.

This may be true (I'm not disputing it).  I can, however, point out another 
reason IT depts. choose software - management, and in particular, poor 
management.

I've often seen managers and executive staff make decisions, some of which 
make sense by their criteria, and others which turn out to be disastrous.  
But it's often an uninformed decision - people without a better understanding 
of their own are swayed by advertising and herd instincts - they have no 
other inputs.

As the pointy haired boss said once, "We want to make sure we jump under the 
bandwagon before the train leaves the station."

While I was at IBM NZ, a manager made the decision to move development of the 
national police computer system off OS/2 and onto Windows.  Mid-stream.  For 
no technical reason, it was just herd mentality.  Didn't cost less - IBM has 
the license to OS/2.

Result?  4 years and $25 million over budget, it's cancelled, sparking a 
Parliamentary inquiry.

IT departments, like employees, often have poor decisions thrust upon them.

Cheers,
Bret


pgpfDnMqQa5VA.pgp
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[SLUG] Re: Re: Interesting view

[Matthew Palmer]

On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 04:42:04PM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>  just as MS has
> >worked for the last twenty odd years to make Windows mean something other
> >than "Hole in the Wall" (hmmm, but that is another discussion).
> 
> ...but everyone know what a window is, very few know what a ubuntu is...

What does it matter if people know what a window is, when it comes to
branding an OS?  Do you honestly believe people looked at a boxed set of
Windows 3.1 on the shelf of 1990 Harvey Norman and said to themselves
"That's what I need on my computer.  Now, where's the curtains to match?"
and then proceeded to purchase and be happy with their product?

The simple fact is, people associate the word Windows with the fisher price
widgets because Microsoft has spent a metric arse-load of money making it
so.  You could argue, I suppose, that in the absence of a massive marketing
budget, Linux distros should keep to the names that don't need explanation,
but I don't think that's going to work -- namespace exhaustion problems come
to mind immediately, not to mention the size of a name you'd need to
properly describe your differentiation in the marketplace.

Quite frankly, in the world of blogs and Internet-scale marketing, you don't
need Microsoft's ad budget to get your name known.  I doubt that Canonical
has spent much in marketing, comparatively (although the CD shipments must
cost a bit) and yet a *lot* of people know their name -- I have had people
who are very not into computers find out I'm into Linux, and specifically
ask me about Ubuntu.

- Matt

-- 
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wrong?" The byte says "Parity error." Bartender nods and says "Yeah, I
thought you looked a bit off."
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Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view

[O Plameras]

Terry Collins wrote:

Bohdan S wrote:
  

I dont like how all these Linux users bag Windows S much. If it
wasent for windows how many of us would own a computer right now?



LOL, you must be a kid. Just as many would.

The big problem for past computer users was that IT dept forced peeps to
standardise on MS OS so they could create a situation that justified the
IT depts existance.

  

This is cynical attitude to take towards IT depts.

The  major reason why we "standardise"  is due to cost. It is not due to 
the whims and caprices of IT dept.


Standardisation  saves cost whether it is computing, manufacturing, 
primary industries, or any entrepreneural
endeavour. Standardisation is one of the basic tools we use to achieve 
economy of scale. (Economics 102?)


Whether it is MS or Unix or Mac or Linux the reason is cost. And this is 
not only for the direct cost of hardware and
software  but  for the on-going ( or total cost of ownership ) cost like 
training cost, the availability of these training
infrastructures, skills and knowledge base cost required to run and 
maintain the systems, quality and reliability in the
supply of skills and knowledge, etc. It is nice to have every available 
systems, unfortunately,  IT departments have
pre-determined budgets and they intend to optimise that budget. Lowest 
cost/benefits ratios are the name of

the game for IT departments.

On-going cost is more problematic on the hip pocket.

When an organization has one system it needs one skills-set; if two 
two-skills sets; more than two skills-sets are

required when you have more. Remember our spreadsheets ?

Hope this helps.

O Plameras









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Re: [SLUG] Interesting view

[Del]

No apologies needed.  About 5 years ago I did a major linux install 
across a multi branch business.  About 50% of the users were first time 
computer users and there were no problems, and the desktops were a lot 
less sophisticated 5 years ago.  I also did a smaller windows to linux 
switch about 5 months ago; all of the users had windows experience and 
it took about 1 hour each for them to get the hang of KDE.


That'd be an interesting case study to make available via OSIA or
similar.

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Del
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Re: Distro names for consumers [Was: [SLUG] Re: Interesting view]

[Julio Cesar Ody]

> You started this thread demanding unification of the desktop, and it turned
> into a discussion about branding.  If you're going to unify, you'd better
> start by appealing to the people you want to unificate, and you're going to
> have to wean them from their existing brands.

Giving my opinion, not demanding anything. For whatever I care,
distros can do whatever they want. My computing needs are well
satisfied with what I use (and it isn't Windows).

> The rest of your post is boring, unsubstantiated FUD.

Yeah, bla bla bla.

I haven't said anything about the (in)success of open source. I
mentioned the reason why I believe that **desktop GNU/Linux** isn't
successful (read that again a couple of times). I'm not a native
english speaker, but you seem to have serious issues understanding it
in plain.


On 3/16/06, Jamie Wilkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This one time, at band camp, Julio Cesar Ody wrote:
> >(not replying to poster, but to the conversation)
> >
> >Really, who cares about the name? Was the name Google that made it a
> >success in the SE world? That's obvious enough. I feel silly by saying
> >it.
>
> You started this thread demanding unification of the desktop, and it turned
> into a discussion about branding.  If you're going to unify, you'd better
> start by appealing to the people you want to unificate, and you're going to
> have to wean them from their existing brands.
>
> The rest of your post is boring, unsubstantiated FUD.
>
> Open source is successful because of exactly the reasons you claim it's not:
> that everyone can do what they want and take an idea in the direction they
> want to.
>
> You talk about unification like it's going to achieve something.  When the
> world is unified, we'll all be wearing grey suits, with a dark sandy-beige 
> skin colour, eating risk free healthy broth, and there will only be one sex.  
> I look forward to the desktop operating system of the future!
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>


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http://rootshell.be/~julioody
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Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view

[Howard Lowndes]

Bret Comstock Waldow wrote:

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:47, Bohdan S wrote:


I dont like how all these Linux users bag Windows S much.



Microsoft is convicted in US Federal Court of using unlawful pressure 
(economic extortion) to control the market.  It's a crime, and they knew it 
was before they did it.  If they were honest people I'd give them equal 
standing, but I don't like thieves:

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm


...and in the EU and S Korea, and probably in Japan soon...



If Microsoft goes out of business, the smart people that work there would not 
evaporate - they would go and work for someone else and we'd have more 
diversity and opportunity in the market.




If it 
wasent for windows how many of us would own a computer right now?



Personal computers happened because the people wanted them.  There is so much 
money in this market there is zero chance it wouldn't have been fulfilled.  
There are several lines of personal computer that were sold before Microsoft 
got anywhere near the business, and Microsoft didn't make the people who 
became it's employees smart - they just bribed them to work for Microsoft.  


me too - CP/M anyone...

Those smart people would have done it anyway - without the lies and crimes.  
Thievery is thievery, and this isn't opinion - it's a conviction in a lawful 
public court.


--
Howard.
LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people 
When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux;
When you want a computer system that works, just, choose Microsoft.
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Re: [SLUG] Interesting view

[Howard Lowndes]

Erle Pereira wrote:

Depends on which market segment or use case you want to please. I honestly
think that we have gone far beyond Windows XP on a number of levels, but a
lot of scale is required to extend beyond a few particular market segments
or use cases.




if i might add some hands on experience here...

The acid test for Operating System usability really is in taking a group
of people who has never really used a computer before (read
un-corrupted) and give them a choice. Hard by any means today. Ive been
lucky to experience it though.

I've been invovled in the grassroots level in India introducing the
under priviledged to computing. They were all kids / few adults who do
not have regular access to a computer.

Linux (gnome, kde, fluxbox, fvwm2 (yes thats right)) , windows etc..
there werent any macs to work with (price issues... this was a non
funded workshop really)

we had used a mix of operating systems, and pushed in a few Linux
desktops where we could.

Suprise! Guess which interface they took too, the preference for linux
(gnome, kde etc..) was pretty apparent. Over the rest. A lot had also to
do with the range of applications which were available to 'play' with.
They were not really going by name or anything. This lot barely
understood the difference between windows and open source.



lots of things don't work as they should.



The point I am trying to make here is, why does linux fail on *some*
desktops. ...

usb devices? cameras? mp3 players? display cards? ...  auto-detection..

'Mostly' Hardware related issues? nothing else really.
Where does this problem originate? .. ... we all know this one.


The distro makers / kernel team and the rest are all doing the best they
can to fill a gap, which (in a fair world) they *should* not be having
to deal with in the first place, at which I think they are all doing a
Fantastic job.
 
A lot of 'end users' will testify to this.


-Erle

---
p.s. Im new here so apologies, if the tone of this mail comes across as
a bit harsh, its *not* meant to be. Just felt I could add some value to
this interesting discussion.


No apologies needed.  About 5 years ago I did a major linux install 
across a multi branch business.  About 50% of the users were first time 
computer users and there were no problems, and the desktops were a lot 
less sophisticated 5 years ago.  I also did a smaller windows to linux 
switch about 5 months ago; all of the users had windows experience and 
it took about 1 hour each for them to get the hang of KDE.



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Re: Distro names for consumers [Was: [SLUG] Re: Interesting view]

[Howard Lowndes]

Julio Cesar Ody wrote:

(not replying to poster, but to the conversation)

Really, who cares about the name? Was the name Google that made it a
success in the SE world? That's obvious enough. I feel silly by saying
it.

It's the "put out a decent desktop distro" bit that's not been
achieved. Not the "best name". How can one believe that desktop Linux
hasn't catched up because of that?

The desktop Linux effort is scattered. It's like politics. A group
believes it should be done this way. Another group believes it should
be done that way. And another... and another... and so on. Thus, the
hundred-distro-one-for-each-task syndrome. ALL OF THEM fail to deliver
a desktop experience that's as user friendly as Windows XP.


I'm sorry, I don't think you could ever call the desktop experience of 
Windows "friendly".  Personally I find it very un-intuitive.




Simple reasoning:
- lots of things don't work as they should.


... examples...


- to install software ABC it's *not* just a matter of putting a CD in
a drive, having an installation screen popping up and one clicking
"install".


that's not necessarily a bad thing - think Sony BMG DRM...


- There's nothing like COM for Linux yet.
- 

As long as this is true, you'll need to market the idea better than MS
does with Windows, because their system might not work properly every
time, but at least they were the ones who *defined* what user-friendly
means.


On 3/16/06, Jeff Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:





Jeff Waugh wrote:





Why doesn't someone just put out a decent desktop distro called "Linux
Home"...


Because brands make statements and associations that people identify
with.  Do you drink STATE VODKA or STOLICHNAYA [1]? Do you drink NSW
APPROVED BEER or VB? DENIM TROUSERS or LEVI 501s? Do you use WEB BROWSER
or FIREFOX?


So why do ppl use "Windows"...


Because it's a great brand name that means a whole lot more than OPERATING
SYSTEM. Of course, being a pretty old brand name now, it's accumulated a
whole stack of warts. :-)



I don't know about you, but "Ubuntu" is distinctive enough to catch my
eye, meaningful enough to take a place in my brain, and has grown to
mean so many more things through association with the product and
community that it's now unforgettably linked with warmth, quality and
friendliness.


Well, I'm sorry, but it takes me back to my time in East Africa in the
'60s when everything was "Uhuru this", or "Uhuru that"; uhuru meaning
freedom, it did nothing for the African independence movements...


That's okay, brands have different associations for everyone. I'm glad we
have been able to spread the idea of Ubuntu beyond its home, and I hope we
live up to it.

- Jeff

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--
Julio C. Ody
http://rootshell.be/~julioody


--
Howard.
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When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux;
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Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view

[Terry Collins]

Bohdan S wrote:
> I dont like how all these Linux users bag Windows S much. If it
> wasent for windows how many of us would own a computer right now?

LOL, you must be a kid. Just as many would.

The big problem for past computer users was that IT dept forced peeps to
standardise on MS OS so they could create a situation that justified the
IT depts existance.



-- 
   Terry Collins {:-)}}}
   email: terryc at woa.com.au  www: http://www.woa.com.au
   Wombat Outdoor Adventures 

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  security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
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Re: [SLUG] Interesting view

[Jamie Wilkinson]

This one time, at band camp, Erle Pereira wrote:
>The acid test for Operating System usability really is in taking a group
>of people who has never really used a computer before (read
>un-corrupted) and give them a choice. Hard by any means today. Ive been
>lucky to experience it though.

I disagree.  The acid test for usability is in taking a group of people who
have a need use the tool to get real work done, and seeing that they can get
that work done as efficiently as possible.  Usability is all about how the
interface to the tool gets in the way of doing work with the tool.

The operating system and the computer are tools for getting real work done.
They don't exist for themselves.

The hammer wasn't designed by someone who didn't have to bash things into
shape.  Hammers aren't skinnable.  But hammers aren't unified, they come in
all different shapes and sizes to fit the requirements of the job at hand.

(The rest of your post is very good news though :)
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Re: Distro names for consumers [Was: [SLUG] Re: Interesting view]

[Jamie Wilkinson]

This one time, at band camp, Julio Cesar Ody wrote:
>(not replying to poster, but to the conversation)
>
>Really, who cares about the name? Was the name Google that made it a
>success in the SE world? That's obvious enough. I feel silly by saying
>it.

You started this thread demanding unification of the desktop, and it turned
into a discussion about branding.  If you're going to unify, you'd better
start by appealing to the people you want to unificate, and you're going to
have to wean them from their existing brands.

The rest of your post is boring, unsubstantiated FUD.

Open source is successful because of exactly the reasons you claim it's not:
that everyone can do what they want and take an idea in the direction they
want to.

You talk about unification like it's going to achieve something.  When the
world is unified, we'll all be wearing grey suits, with a dark sandy-beige skin 
colour, eating risk free healthy broth, and there will only be one sex.  I look 
forward to the desktop operating system of the future!
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RE: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view

[Visser, Martin]

Bohdan,
 
I think that most Linux users (fanatics even ) 
would agree with you that there is a tradeoff in choosing between Linux and 
Windows. Granted that if I go to the store and buy a big-brand computer it with 
Windows it will just work. And I can go buy hardware and software and it will 
just work mostly. So while many Linux'ers might say or think that Windows is 
"bad", it does basically do the job that it is meant to do. So what do you lose 
by running Windows?
 
* The main thing for me is it's opacity. After 6 months 
when my Windows computer all clags up with software that has never been tested 
to work together, how do I fix it? I might be lucky and be able to uninstall and 
reinstall, muck with the registry or somesuch. But inevitable I will have to 
reinstall - and the reason is that so much is hidden from the user. Not being 
transparent and open may mean I have to pay someone a lot to fix it. I might 
have to wait for the vendor to come up with a fix, or even have to pay for the 
upgrade when it comes. I will find it difficult to be able to trace what is 
going because of the closed nature of the software limiting my visibility. (Yes 
there are books and specifications and the like, but these only go so 
far).
* Because of the need to support very old APIs (going 
back to Windows 3.0 even) and without publishing how these things work, the 
software needs to become big and bloated. It even needs to support previous 
mistakes made by application developers, and support that software in the same 
way it used to on every new OS upgrade. Hence it consumes far more resources 
than is needed by Linux to do the same job. ( I am at this moment running a 2GHz 
Laptop with WinXP with 768MB - it feels less responsive than a 800MHz laptop 
with 256MB of RAM running Ubuntu Linux. And this is basically untuned - by 
judicious decisions on what daemons should run, what kernel functions I really 
need, you can probably make this better). Unfortunately with Windows it is very 
hard to know what to tune to fix these issues.
* There are lots of applications for Windows that will 
meet by needs. But unfortunately until I buy them I can't really try them. In 
Linux and open-source I don't have that constraint. I can also seek to change 
the application to suit my needs, if directly by hacking the code (or paying 
someone to do it for me) or indirectly through filing bug requests, and the 
like.
 
So why is Windows the main game 
still?
 
* Yes it does work quite well and is feature rich. But 
this is really because of it being entrenched in the market more than anything. 
Sadly this means that for games vendors and hardware vendors (that make drivers) 
that directly need/want to make money from the sale of product, this is where 
they will be aim for. However if Linux breaks through (and it is IMHO slowly but 
surely) then this will get there attention.
* Because of the market size it is the "safe" and 
default option for home and business alike. There are load of people that know 
the quirks of Windows, experienced in supporting it, and so forth. Support 
services for Linux based systems are still not yet ubiquitous (at least not as 
accessible as those for Windows). Again, I believe this is changing quickly - 
many of my work colleagues who had basically only ever worked with Windows (not 
even UNIX) have now had a chance to play with the modern Linuxes. Many of them 
like what they see (but of cause the bulk of the work is still for Windows 
customers - so the cycle must continue for a little while 
yet)
 
So I will grant you that Linux is still a bit hard. It 
is a bit like moving to another country where they have a different language, 
different voltages and power points, and they use imperial nuts and you just 
bought new metric spanners.( I have pretty well all the hardware working in 
Linux on my laptop now - it hibernates and wakes-up, my camera, printer and 
scanner "just worked" - though I had to compile the kernel module for orinoco 
USB wireless chipset. However I have PCMCIA smart card that will basically never 
work - because the vendor is closed source only). Yes, I do  tweak config 
files with a text editor. But a lot of that is simply because I like to - and 
also because I don't probably explore the Gnome menus enough. I am trying to 
force myself to use the GUI - just so I can be my own n00by. I feel that many of 
the distros are reaching the "nanna" point - ready for deployment on you 
grandmother's computer who lives down the coast.
 
But Bohdan, stick in there, it is getting there. Linux 
is breaking through - quicker than ever as the community grows and people begin 
to realise it's value. It does take all of us though to make it better. So get 
in there , join the support forums or IRC channels, write up a blog of how you 
got something to work, write an update to a manual page, or sit down with a 
friend who can't affford a grunty box to run Windows and install Linux and watch 
their

Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view

[Bret Comstock Waldow]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:47, Bohdan S wrote:
> I dont like how all these Linux users bag Windows S much.

Microsoft is convicted in US Federal Court of using unlawful pressure 
(economic extortion) to control the market.  It's a crime, and they knew it 
was before they did it.  If they were honest people I'd give them equal 
standing, but I don't like thieves:
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm

If Microsoft goes out of business, the smart people that work there would not 
evaporate - they would go and work for someone else and we'd have more 
diversity and opportunity in the market.


> If it 
> wasent for windows how many of us would own a computer right now?

Personal computers happened because the people wanted them.  There is so much 
money in this market there is zero chance it wouldn't have been fulfilled.  
There are several lines of personal computer that were sold before Microsoft 
got anywhere near the business, and Microsoft didn't make the people who 
became it's employees smart - they just bribed them to work for Microsoft.  
Those smart people would have done it anyway - without the lies and crimes.  
Thievery is thievery, and this isn't opinion - it's a conviction in a lawful 
public court.


> it wasent until windows as we know it (9x) came around that she relised the
> potential of a computer!

She didn't try a Mac.  They did all that sort of thing long before Microsoft 
got around to it, before Windows 3.1.  I know - I was in the business then - 
and I still am.  TrueType fonts, for example, are an Apple invention:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_fonts

It's only because there is so much you don't know that you can think that we 
owe Microsoft credit for anything besides relying on unethical marketing 
instead of honest technical ability.

The choice between the technologies is a personal one - just 'cause I like it 
doesn't mean it's better.  Or worse.  But in addition, Microsoft is a company 
of convicted cheats.  Who I'm willing to get in bed with says a lot about me, 
and what my values are.

If Microsoft wasn't in business (it was the Bush administration that chose not 
to impose the proper penalties - he never met a rich donor he didn't like), 
then the games would be written for another platform - Mac or Linux or 
Solaris or NeXT or BEOS (which had multimedia powers Windows can only pretend 
to have in the ads - nothing Microsoft can do comes close).  No one would 
leave that sort of money lying around - they'd write the games.

The idea that we owe Microsoft allegiance because they've cheated their way 
into the biggest position is itself the best indication of the worth of your 
suggestions.  In my opinion.  I won't help cheats get away with more of it.

How much of a good neighbor am I if I pay criminals to hang around where I 
live and dig themselves deeper into my neighborhood?  Who will they attack 
next?  "It's not my responsibility - I just give them money."

If it's ok for Microsoft to gain by lying (known fact) is it then also ok for 
you to gain by lying?  What do you say to that proposition?  This is really 
what it's about, you know.

Microsoft sucks because they decided to, of their own free will.  They could 
have played a hard but honest game, but they didn't.  They knew the law, they 
have good lawyers, and they cheated, and brought a great deal of misery to 
the people who worked for the companies they put out of business by the 
cheating that they were convicted of.

What about those people, whose own dreams were shattered so you could get your 
games on Windows?

But you like your games, and anyone who gets them for you is ok with you, yes?  
Is that all there is to it?

Why do you think the European Union is tearing Microsoft a new one even as we 
write these messages?  If they were tough businessmen, I'd admire them - but 
that court conviction is real, and truthfully they owe all of their 
(ill-gained) "profits" to the people they cheated out of business.  The 
employees are invited to get jobs with someone honest.

Good luck,
Bret


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Re: [SLUG] Interesting view

[Erle Pereira]

>Depends on which market segment or use case you want to please. I honestly
>think that we have gone far beyond Windows XP on a number of levels, but a
>lot of scale is required to extend beyond a few particular market segments
>or use cases.


if i might add some hands on experience here...

The acid test for Operating System usability really is in taking a group
of people who has never really used a computer before (read
un-corrupted) and give them a choice. Hard by any means today. Ive been
lucky to experience it though.

I've been invovled in the grassroots level in India introducing the
under priviledged to computing. They were all kids / few adults who do
not have regular access to a computer.

Linux (gnome, kde, fluxbox, fvwm2 (yes thats right)) , windows etc..
there werent any macs to work with (price issues... this was a non
funded workshop really)

we had used a mix of operating systems, and pushed in a few Linux
desktops where we could.

Suprise! Guess which interface they took too, the preference for linux
(gnome, kde etc..) was pretty apparent. Over the rest. A lot had also to
do with the range of applications which were available to 'play' with.
They were not really going by name or anything. This lot barely
understood the difference between windows and open source.

> lots of things don't work as they should.

The point I am trying to make here is, why does linux fail on *some*
desktops. ...

usb devices? cameras? mp3 players? display cards? ...  auto-detection..

'Mostly' Hardware related issues? nothing else really.
Where does this problem originate? .. ... we all know this one.


The distro makers / kernel team and the rest are all doing the best they
can to fill a gap, which (in a fair world) they *should* not be having
to deal with in the first place, at which I think they are all doing a
Fantastic job.
 
A lot of 'end users' will testify to this.

-Erle

---
p.s. Im new here so apologies, if the tone of this mail comes across as
a bit harsh, its *not* meant to be. Just felt I could add some value to
this interesting discussion.
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