Re: [RCSE] Gravityless flight
on 5/24/01 11:44 AM, Cottrill, Flash at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was talking to a friend this morning and the subject of gravity came up. (no pun intended). I said, thank goodness we have gravity or else we wouldn't be able to fly gliders. His comment was, if we didn't have gravity we wouldn't have an atmosphere to fly in any way. I agreed, but then thought out loud, whet if we were in outer space in some kind of huge structure, that was full of air... and what if we had an RC glider and threw it, how would it fly without the presence of gravity? Would it control the same? Fly the same? How long would it fly for? I hate to get off the subject of motorcycles and onto the subject of flying gliders but would some of you think about my question and post your thoughts. Gordon. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] hi gordon. as long as it is moving forward through the gas (air)...and there are no circulating currents in the structurethen it should climb slightly with no control inputscontrol inputs should react the same as far as pitch, roll and yaw are concerned..however...the glider will rotate around the center of mass.not necessarily the CGand as soon as the glider lost forward momentumit would just hang there. thanks for the thought provoking queation...beats motorcycles.. kevin o'dell RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] Gravityless flight
Kevin O'Dell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wrote as long as it is moving forward through the gas (air)...and there are no circulating currents in the structurethen it should climb slightly with no control inputs Actually, the glider should climb smartly. If I were forced to guess I would say it would climb at 32 ft/sec/sec (or 9.8 M/s/s). Is it me or are those number oddly familiar? Tom Faulhaber ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] FS Muller Ellipse 4
Hi Gang, The Ellipse 4 has sold. See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Gravityless Flight and DS
Gents, I have enjoyed the zero gravity discussion! I agree that a sailplane in zero gravity and still air will not glide for long. But what about dynamic soaring in zero gravity? As an aside, note that one can achieve very close to zero g flight within a gravitational field by flying an approximately parabolic flight path. This is done with large jet transports for astronaut training. As far as the airplane is concerned, this is very much the same as flying within a large satellite that is orbiting the earth, at least for a short period of time when the airplane is at the top of the parabola. The elevator has to be set to produce zero lift of course. That's all for now. Blaine Beron-Rawdon Envision Design San Pedro, California http://members.home.net/evdesign/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] Transmitters
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[RCSE] Brain MacLean
Hello, Does anyone have Brian's e-mail address, website or phone #. Thank you in advance ... _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [RCSE] Cargo
Bill, been there done that and the Twin star fly's great. I had a crashed one and ordered another just cut out the nacelles and install on new wing with enough room for the prop to swing, wire motors in series, spackle and paint took about an hour and a half to complete the project. You will need about a 40amp speed controller for the extra juice Ah!! the sound of 4 motors. I recommend a flight pack for the receiver as mine met a awful end at the Phoenix contest two years ago it brings a tear to my eyes when I think about, the quad star tows hand launches with out breaking a sweat. It was a great, fun and easy project just call up Karlton for a wing kit and you to can have a quad star. ... I had a photo Karlton may still have it. joe -Original Message- From: Bill Swingle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 1:58 PM To: RCSE Soaring Subject: Re: [RCSE] Cargo Okay, looking at the Cargo gives me an idea. Why not add two motors to the ubiquitous Twin Star? Knowing the typical modeler mindset; I'd not be surprised if someone has already tried it. Has anyone? Might be entertaining. Bill Swingle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Janesville, CA RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Icon
Well I finished my Icon in four long evenings, and I am a slow builder. I wanted to have it ready for the Chicago F3J contest, even though I didn't plan on flying it. First flights were on Sunday morning off of a ford long shaft winch, which I could easily stall with the Icon's massive stiff wing. I instantly became one with this model, it is so comfortable to fly. Really nice, just dances in lift. Landings are very controlled with the big flaps and cruciform tail, the second landing was gently into the palm of my hand. Flying it Sunday morning with Capn' Jack for the first time, all he could say on the way home is you have to fly it in the contest. It was against my better judgement since I have proven contest ready models but I couldn't argue with him, he was right. So I did, and it was a blast! The Icon is a F3J machine. After the contest the east coast guys fixed a rig to do 4 man tow launches. Oh my my, what cool launches. They asked me if I wanted to try with the Icon, I was all over that and went and got the Icon. Full tension on a four man tow equals instant rotation and rapid accent!! The wings didn't even flex so I kept pulling back on the stick ever so gently... POW broke the line! Still got a good zoom! I can't wait to get some more stick time on this model, it is impressive. http://www.mapleleafdesign.com/icon.html There were alot of pictures of my model taken this weekend, some will be on the web soon. P.S. Another cool American design in my quiver. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of Chicago SOAR club ICQ 6997780R/C Soaring Page at http://www.mcs.net/~bacuslab/soaring.html RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] F3J new tow rules in a contest
In a message dated 05/30/2001 10:12:43 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There was no more than 20 to 30 minutes of discussion needed in Chicago to have a ruling made by the CD on our launch technique. BTW, this would not have had to happen if the FAI/CIAM had changed the rules in a sensible fashion, but they didn't. There are only a few F3J contests in the US each year, and we had to put our technique to the current rule book right now, before Nats and the US team selections, in the realm of a real contest, there is no other way to do it. The way the rules are written now, even if they are written poorly, allow us to launch the way we did, and I can and have made a very strong case for it, and now it is on record as being accepted in a US contest. There is no spirit of the rules, or intent, just the official rule book and the rules it provides. If we did something wrong, some one will have to show us why with the rules from the current official rule book. So far, no one has been able to do that. If people want to obey the spirit of F3J, then why don't you all protest the rules to go back to 150m of braided line kite tows with open bay models 2 and 3 channel models like the English had planned it to be. Jim Downers Grove, IL Hi Jim, Monday was fun, eh? :) To tell you the truth, I really didn't get a chance to watch how the towing went at your end of the field. I was either throwing or flying a plane for every flight group (I actually got pulled off my feet once, when the runners were kicked at 4 seconds. I was ready to throw at 1 and that last second pulled me over. I just managed to hang on and let go at the start of working time and the plane got off straight!) I did hear the clinking at the start of the day when you guys pounded the stakes in. That's when our team decided to go over and see what was happening. I kind of wish I hadn't, 'cause the time we spent talking about it probably cost us a round of flying when the last round ended at 3:20. Those lunch breaks are killers, though! BTW, fantastic lunches for all three days, especially when those Subs showed up on Saturday in the rain! It gave us the lift we needed to take down the field in the rain. Thanks Debbie, and everybody else who helped pull off this contest. We had lots of help from guys like Al Zolecki, Tom Tock, Steve Moskal, Don Smith and Stan Watson ( know I'm forgetting someone, sorry). Any way, we decided to endure your tow technique without protest, I guess that is a sort of acceptance. We wanted to fly as I'm sure you did! I did attend the team captains meeting and heard the CD's opinion on the matter, and respect the reasoning behind it, but since there was no formal protest, I don't know if that represents a ruling. Maybe our acquiescence set some sort of precedent, I don't know, but that leaves us in the unpleasant position of not really knowing anything more about its legality until the NATS or *gulp* Team Select, the stakes (ha ha) being raised incrementally. Are we playing chess or flying toy planes? I know Jimmy Mac stated he'd fly zero's all day in the interest of safety, so I didn't really appreciate him getting thouski's all day long! :) That 9 whatever in the 4th round was masterful. I'm not sure what the tow technique had to do with it, he could probably beat both of by hand launching that Artemis of his. Our team used pulley tows and direct to the plane tows and we seemed to get competitively high, with the added bonus that there was very little conversation about it:) . See ya at the Fred! Bill Wingstedt RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] Make a Deal Day at NSP
In a message dated 05/30/2001 9:52:23 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And for all my compadres beyond the Big L, remember: Today is the first day…of the rest of this half century. ENJOY!! CD ...and for those of us who are still looking forward to the Big L, remember: Today is the last day of your life...SO FAR! ENJOY! Bill Wingstedt RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] F3J new tow rules in a contest
At 11:33 PM 5/30/2001, you wrote: Hi Jim, Monday was fun, eh? :) Yes it was, and there was some damn good flying going on too! Any way, we decided to endure your tow technique without protest, I guess that is a sort of acceptance. We wanted to fly as I'm sure you did! I did attend the team captains meeting and heard the CD's opinion on the matter, and respect the reasoning behind it, but since there was no formal protest, I don't know if that represents a ruling. Maybe our acquiescence set some sort of precedent, I don't know, but that leaves us in the unpleasant position of not really knowing anything more about its legality until the NATS or *gulp* Team Select, the stakes (ha ha) being raised incrementally. I think at least it sets some sort of precedent. I think our technique was very safe, effective, and met the definition of the new rules. You should at least give it a try. After the CD's ruling and team captains meeting you could have easily adapted if you chose to, I know you guys have that type of gear. As for Nats, the CD of Nats was there. This issue will certainly come up in the pilots meeting, and I am sure the CD will now be prepared for this. Are we playing chess or flying toy planes? Was there another rule change? 8-) I know Jimmy Mac stated he'd fly zero's all day in the interest of safety, so I didn't really appreciate him getting thouski's all day long! :) I also was willing to fly zero's all day, but I am less of a threat. 8-) Good flying Bill, you guys did great. Another thing to mention about Jim McCarthy, he was knee deep in teaching new guys F3J while all this was happening too. He simultaneously coached complete newbies to F3J - Jack Strother, Steve Schneider, Martin Doney, his son David (not really a new guy), while flying that type of contest. He always has time to answer questions, and make people laugh during prep time. He helped tow on other teams, the guy is a asset to this sport. Straight up. That 9 whatever in the 4th round was masterful. I'm not sure what the tow technique had to do with it, he could probably beat both of by hand launching that Artemis of his. Our team used pulley tows and direct to the plane tows and we seemed to get competitively high, with the added bonus that there was very little conversation about it:) . Only on your end. I wish I had dedicated football player towers like Frankie B. and his friend, I would tow direct and feed those guys thick steaks! 8-) See ya at the Fred! You bet! Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of Chicago SOAR club ICQ 6997780R/C Soaring Page at http://www.mcs.net/~bacuslab/soaring.html RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] RE: Brian McLean
Contact Brian McLean at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cheers, Nathan Woods Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 04:12:01 - From: Steve Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Brain MacLean Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello, Does anyone have Brian's e-mail address, website or phone #. Thank you in advance ... RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] Gravityless flight
In a message dated 5/30/01 2:51:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Cottrill, Flash wrote: I'd like to answer this with some authority but my aerodynamic training is limited. My unauthorized comment would be, that the plane would take on what ever attitude the control surfaces told it to... although they might not be the same responses one would see if under the influence of gravity. Whether the plane went up indefinitely or not, would depend solely on the angle of attack and the shape of the airfoil along with the elevator inputs. I think! You have more than one training limitation, Gordon - in a gravityless environment, which way is up!? :-) Good Lift! (?) Skip (MSE, Astrodynamics UCLA 1963) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Observations on new RDS mockup.
From: Harley Michaelis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mark Drela [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Why RDS did not work for me... long Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 8:30 PM I'm glad to see fellows the stature of Mark, Oleg, John, Blaine and Dennis (who pilots the Aerosonde), etc., making contributions to this discussion. I just this afternoon did the little balsa mockup for which I offered plans for the asking. My original one is larger, made of light ply and was getting shopworn, anyway. After hinging the flap and aileron with 1/2 wide adhesive tape, I found the optimum locations for the bends in the shafts. Incidentally, for the flaps there is one and only one acceptable location for the bend. It is found by rotating the shaft to the 90 degree down flap location with the bent end in the pocket. That sets it. To simulate a shaft that can't move along its axis, I glued little blocks to butt the upright handle ends of the shafts with the elbows located in the optimum spots. That simulates a rigidly fixed servo and the shaft in the coupler, rigidly secured with setscrews on a flat. I have 2 pair of small, flat-headed nails positioned along each shaft so it can neither move side to side or up and down. The shafts and the pockets are in a common geometrical plane at neutral. Everything is open to visually observe and it is easy to feel what goes on. Rotation of the shafts provides a smooth and unrestricted action of the flap and aileron. The pockets freely move fore-aft along the bent end of the shaft during deflection. I have a continuous hinge about 6 long along the bottom for the flap. This not a well-bonded hinge and it is too short to be practical, but after may deflections it is intact and I don't see that anything is tearing it away. There is something *not happening* that is expected to be a source of a problem. The mockup rather closesly simulates a real installation in many ways. As to the vertical bearing plate that would be used, my suggestion is that the slot in it be sized to allow no side to side play and whatever is needed to freely move in the other plane. However, at least in this mockup, no such motion is possible and does not seem to be needed. No binding is evident. It appears the vertical motion in a real installation would be miniscule. Oleg. . .if you will provide your address, I will send you this mockup. Anyone wanting the latest mockup drawing and text, just ask. From: Mark Drela [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Why RDS did not work for me... long Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 1:44 PM A sloppy support bearing will NOT increase the slop in the position of the control surface. The supprt bearing does have to be hard and strong though because lateral and vertical forces are exerted from the pocket friction and geometry of the RADS. This makes the torque shaft lever against the support bearing. I dunno about this. I don't see why the support bearing has to be hard and strong, when it also has to have slop. A bearing with slop is mechanically equivalent to no bearing at all, at least for deflections within the slop limits. Might as well leave it off. As Blaine pointed out, all the moment is taken up entirely by the two-point contact between the shaft arm and the pocket walls (one point is at the shaft tip, the other is at the pocket edge). It seems you want the bent-over shaft arm to float freely up and down via flexing of the drive shaft between the servo and the bend. The vertical load on the flap is then taken up only by the hinge, avoiding the hinge failure that Oleg saw from a kinematically overconstrained linkage. - Mark RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
