RE: [RCSE] tip aileron theory (was 6 servo+stylus)
At 07:34 AM 10/28/01 +0100, Stefan Smets wrote: Ok, I'll ask the stupid question then :-) : or to fly flatter turns (although I'll never understand why anyone would do that) I would guess to lose less lift in the turn ? Sometimes I try to level the wings a bit while turning by cross-controlling the ailerons the other direction than the turn. I've even read about that in different magazines. Judging from what you wrote, there is something wrong with that ? It's an uncoordinated turn, and presumably creates a lot of drag. Notice that in full scale gliders, they always try to make coordinated turns in thermals (I've never heard of a glider pilot trying to make a flat turn). Unless the physics of r/c gliders is markably different, I've never been quite clear on why making a flat turn would be a good thing either. Brett RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [RCSE] tip aileron theory (was 6 servo+stylus)
Ok, Ok, I found the article I've read it in: SE Modeler, July 2000, Vol. 5, n° 4, p. 26: Sailplane setup: Thumbs the word ! by Mark Triebes. I can quote the relevant part if you want, but since you might have the article, I won't for now (if somebody wants me, I can send a scan); he does state on p. 28: .. although many full-scale sailplane pilots do cross-control quite a bit ... I've never flown a full-scale sailplane, so I've no idea about that. I must add that by cross-controlling, he means feeding OPPOSITE rudder, not opposite ailerons ... This starts to look like either way, I'll have to unlearn some habits .. :-). Stefan. At 07:34 AM 10/28/01 +0100, Stefan Smets wrote: Ok, I'll ask the stupid question then :-) : or to fly flatter turns (although I'll never understand why anyone would do that) I would guess to lose less lift in the turn ? Sometimes I try to level the wings a bit while turning by cross-controlling the ailerons the other direction than the turn. I've even read about that in different magazines. Judging from what you wrote, there is something wrong with that ? It's an uncoordinated turn, and presumably creates a lot of drag. Notice that in full scale gliders, they always try to make coordinated turns in thermals (I've never heard of a glider pilot trying to make a flat turn). Unless the physics of r/c gliders is markably different, I've never been quite clear on why making a flat turn would be a good thing either. Brett RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Kevlar leading ledges
Hi there, I've been making some Kahu DGL wings http://www.charlesriverrc.org/articles/kahudlg/chriskaiser_kahudlg.htm I've been using 1oz Kevlar and a 1.7oz (1inch) leading edge. I'd like to know if anybody out there has any insight on how to get prefect leading edges so they don't need any sanding (which you can't) after vacuum bagging? How do you get the leading edge to stop pinching under vacuum I guess the guys at Mapleleaf know how to do this, wana' share some secrets with us. Regards from DownUnder Aneil Patel.
[RCSE] Which Crystal for JR R610M Receiver?
Hi, I'm ordering a second JR R610M receiver, and I have the choice between crystals for single and double conversion receivers... Is the R610M a single or double conversion receiver? Thanks Pierre RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Re: SBXC info
Tony, I am sorry, but I am working away from my home, and can not readily get to my data.. I know that RNR has a Website,and out ou the Left Coast, there are several really neat X/C organizations that use the as well. I will send this post to RCSE and maybe someone will help you and the others that may have the same need.. Jack Strother [EMAIL PROTECTED] LSF President LSF Level IV Loveland, OH From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: SBXC Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:12:06 EDT Hi jack , MY name is Tony Im trying to find imformation on the SBXC. IF you have any it would be greatly appreciaped thanks Tony. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] RR
www.rnrproducts.com/ is the last address I have _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [RCSE] tip aileron theory (was 6 servo+stylus)
Stefan Smets asks: Ok, I'll ask the stupid question then :-) : The only stupid question is one that you should have asked, but didn't! ;-) or to fly flatter turns (although I'll never understand why anyone would do that) I would guess to lose less lift in the turn ? Sometimes I try to level the wings a bit while turning by cross-controlling the ailerons the other direction than the turn. I've even read about that in different magazines. Judging from what you wrote, there is something wrong with that ? There's a difference between using crossed controls and having an uncoordinated turn. I've flown a number of full-scale aircraft where I found it was necessary to use crossed controls (top aileron plus bottom rudder, typically) in order to keep the ball centered. Two that come to mind a re a 7AC Aeronca Champion, and a Schweitzer 2-22. In a turn there are a lot of unsymmetrical things happening to various parts of the airplane. In particular, the airflow is now curved (the amount of which and the significance of that curvature depends on the aircraft in question, its flying weight, and the details of the turn being flown), and the local airspeeds along the wing are different. In a good HLG, it's possible that the airspeed at the outboard wingtip could be twice the airspeed at the inboard tip. This means that the inboard tip's Reynolds number is half that of the outboard tip, and it also needs to develop four times the lift coefficient of the outboard tip! At the same time, the lower airspeed can reduce its parasite drag in comparison to the outboard tip. The net result of all of this can, in some cases, result in the airplane wanting to roll into a steeper bank angle (overbanking tendency), while at the same time yawing toward the outside of the turn. A combination of aileron towards the outside of the turn (top aileron; this increases both the camber and the angle of attack of the inside wingtip so that it can make that extra lift coefficient needed to balance the extra airspeed of the outboard tip), and enough into-the-turn (bottom) rudder deflection to counteract the yaw is needed to balance these effects. Without these crossed control inputs, the airplane will not fly a coordinated turn. Note, this phenomenon may or may not exist for a particular aircraft and flight condition. I've flown other aircraft that did not need these control inputs. It all depends on how the various factors and forces add up. The bottom line is that you should use whatever control inputs are needed to make your airplane straighten up and fly right! Don Stackhouse @ DJ Aerotech [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.djaerotech.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] . . . the P-38 ISSUE . . .
From MSu-jaffee, Boeing will survive . . . Lockheed would probably not have, and the resulting loss of expertise, knowledge/ability base, plus a second source for competitive bidding... all those things were too precious to the industry's future to lose . . . AND Joe would have lost his job. . . . , no matter which plane was better. Didn't even have to have performance ratings to KNOW which was better ! What kind of PSS would the X-32 have turned out to be :-) !!?? Paul Clark, SKY PILOT ONE, Osaka, Japan(AMA # 53 777 1) http://www.kcat.zaq.ne.jp/skypilot/ SKY PILOT'S HANGAR--RCHLG AFICIONADO RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [RCSE] tip aileron theory (was 6 servo+stylus)
A comment from the scale sailplane arena: A flat turn as opposed to a steeply banked turn simply put, keeps a larger footprint or projected wing area pointed at the lift which we all know is going up. If your in a large area of strong lift it doesn't matter much either way. I always use the shallowest bank angle in a thermal turn that will allow me to stay centered in the lift, there by exposing the largest possible area of the wing to the rising air. This is called efficiency. A corollary I learned from Karl Striedeck (full scale guru for those not familiar) also states: always fly in the best air you can, even if it means straying off course on a dash to the gate at the end of a contest. Anyway, Full scale ships do indeed cross control, but not all with rudder or all with aileron. It depends on the ship. Many standard class (15 meter ships) will correct with rudder. Larger unlimited ships like the Nimbus four, have tiplets coupled with the rudder to manage cross controlling on a ship with an extremely high aspect ratio wing. In scale model flying, you have to cross control with ailerons when you are flying a high aspect ratio ship if you expect to control your roll rate in a turn. A very few scale models have tiplets which allow programmed cross controlling. By the way, myself and a few others are refining a six (or more) servo wing set up for the new generation of scale ships. These come equipped with full span flap and aileron combinations. There are mixes required that are very similar to what is now being used in thermal duration, the exception is that spoilers are also a function included with scale ships. What we are doing is putting spoilers on the throttle stick( a scale standard practice), and using the three position flap landing switch butterfly switch, not for Crow However), and a slider for a trimmer snap flap function for getting out of a tight spot. The only domestic radio that I found suitable so far is the JR 10X. (it has two sliders) I assume the Futaba 9ZAP may work also. If you have a Multiplex 4000, or Graupner MC-24, you have got it made. With a scale ship, we start to run out of holes to plug in servos. We need those 12 channel rx's John Derstine P.S. Mike Lachowski has a great reference article on setting up the 10x for 6 or 8 servo wing on the ESL website suitable for TD ships. It is on the root directory of that site. Sorry if this has been referenced previously. Endless Mountain Models note new email address E-mail; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Page: http://www.geocities.com/scalesoar/EMM/rand.htm -Original Message- From: Stefan Smets [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 3:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring@airage. com Subject: RE: [RCSE] tip aileron theory (was 6 servo+stylus) Ok, state on p. 28: .. although many full-scale sailplane pilots do cross-control quite a bit ... I've never flown a full-scale sailplane, so I've no idea about that. I must add that by cross-controlling, he means feeding OPPOSITE rudder, not opposite ailerons ... or to fly flatter turns (although I'll never understand why anyone would do that) I would guess to lose less lift in the turn ? Sometimes I try to level the wings a bit while turning by cross-controlling the ailerons the other direction than the turn. I've even read about that in RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [RCSE] tip aileron theory (was 6 servo+stylus)
Don's explanation of using crossed controls and what happens then seems satifactory to me; as I understand it, he used crossed controls in some aircraft to make a coordinated turn. How about the original point Daryl made: the use of anybody wanting to fly a flatter turn (cross-controlling would be a way to do that); Daryl seemed to imply it's not a good idea; since I'm sure he knows a lot more about all this then I do, and the use of a flattter tuns seemed obvious to me, his remark made me wonder what the problem is ? The article in question seems to contradict the necessity to make coordinated turns: Most of the pilots tend to think it is necessary to make coordinated turns with our sailplanes. [...] it's not necessarily the ideal think for our models. Remember that we are looking for max or near max performance from our planes and making coordinated turns while termalling can degrade the performance of the wing. Many times when I'm doing fairly thight thermal turns, I will actually be cross-controlling the plane (feeding in OPPOSITE rudder) to work the inside wing harder and allow the wing to create more lift. This situation of adverse yaw may look a little funny [...], but it's a good way to create maximum lift in a given situation. Stefan or to fly flatter turns (although I'll never understand why anyone would do that) I would guess to lose less lift in the turn ? Sometimes I try to level the wings a bit while turning by cross-controlling the ailerons the other direction than the turn. I've even read about that in different magazines. Judging from what you wrote, there is something wrong with that ? There's a difference between using crossed controls and having an uncoordinated turn. I've flown a number of full-scale aircraft where I found it was necessary to use crossed controls (top aileron plus bottom rudder, typically) in order to keep the ball centered. Two that come to mind a re a 7AC Aeronca Champion, and a Schweitzer 2-22. In a turn there are a lot of unsymmetrical things happening to various parts of the airplane. In particular, the airflow is now curved (the amount of which and the significance of that curvature depends on the aircraft in question, its flying weight, and the details of the turn being flown), and the local airspeeds along the wing are different. In a good HLG, it's possible that the airspeed at the outboard wingtip could be twice the airspeed at the inboard tip. This means that the inboard tip's Reynolds number is half that of the outboard tip, and it also needs to develop four times the lift coefficient of the outboard tip! At the same time, the lower airspeed can reduce its parasite drag in comparison to the outboard tip. The net result of all of this can, in some cases, result in the airplane wanting to roll into a steeper bank angle (overbanking tendency), while at the same time yawing toward the outside of the turn. A combination of aileron towards the outside of the turn (top aileron; this increases both the camber and the angle of attack of the inside wingtip so that it can make that extra lift coefficient needed to balance the extra airspeed of the outboard tip), and enough into-the-turn (bottom) rudder deflection to counteract the yaw is needed to balance these effects. Without these crossed control inputs, the airplane will not fly a coordinated turn. Note, this phenomenon may or may not exist for a particular aircraft and flight condition. I've flown other aircraft that did not need these control inputs. It all depends on how the various factors and forces add up. The bottom line is that you should use whatever control inputs are needed to make your airplane straighten up and fly right! Don Stackhouse @ DJ Aerotech [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.djaerotech.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [RCSE] tip aileron theory (was 6 servo+stylus)
Just got John Derstine's answer; it seems to answer the rest of my questions. Thanks all, Stefan. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: John Derstine [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: zondag 28 oktober 2001 13:46 Aan: Stefan Smets; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring@airage. com Onderwerp: RE: [RCSE] tip aileron theory (was 6 servo+stylus) A comment from the scale sailplane arena: A flat turn as opposed to a steeply banked turn simply put, keeps a larger footprint or projected wing area pointed at the lift which we all know is going up. If your in a large area of strong lift it doesn't matter much either way. I always use the shallowest bank angle in a thermal turn that will allow me to stay centered in the lift, there by exposing the largest possible area of the wing to the rising air. This is called efficiency. A corollary I learned from Karl Striedeck (full scale guru for those not familiar) also states: always fly in the best air you can, even if it means straying off course on a dash to the gate at the end of a contest. Anyway, Full scale ships do indeed cross control, but not all with rudder or all with aileron. It depends on the ship. Many standard class (15 meter ships) will correct with rudder. Larger unlimited ships like the Nimbus four, have tiplets coupled with the rudder to manage cross controlling on a ship with an extremely high aspect ratio wing. In scale model flying, you have to cross control with ailerons when you are flying a high aspect ratio ship if you expect to control your roll rate in a turn. A very few scale models have tiplets which allow programmed cross controlling. By the way, myself and a few others are refining a six (or more) servo wing set up for the new generation of scale ships. These come equipped with full span flap and aileron combinations. There are mixes required that are very similar to what is now being used in thermal duration, the exception is that spoilers are also a function included with scale ships. What we are doing is putting spoilers on the throttle stick( a scale standard practice), and using the three position flap landing switch butterfly switch, not for Crow However), and a slider for a trimmer snap flap function for getting out of a tight spot. The only domestic radio that I found suitable so far is the JR 10X. (it has two sliders) I assume the Futaba 9ZAP may work also. If you have a Multiplex 4000, or Graupner MC-24, you have got it made. With a scale ship, we start to run out of holes to plug in servos. We need those 12 channel rx's John Derstine P.S. Mike Lachowski has a great reference article on setting up the 10x for 6 or 8 servo wing on the ESL website suitable for TD ships. It is on the root directory of that site. Sorry if this has been referenced previously. Endless Mountain Models note new email address E-mail; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Page: http://www.geocities.com/scalesoar/EMM/rand.htm -Original Message- From: Stefan Smets [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 3:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring@airage. com Subject: RE: [RCSE] tip aileron theory (was 6 servo+stylus) Ok, state on p. 28: .. although many full-scale sailplane pilots do cross-control quite a bit ... I've never flown a full-scale sailplane, so I've no idea about that. I must add that by cross-controlling, he means feeding OPPOSITE rudder, not opposite ailerons ... or to fly flatter turns (although I'll never understand why anyone would do that) I would guess to lose less lift in the turn ? Sometimes I try to level the wings a bit while turning by cross-controlling the ailerons the other direction than the turn. I've even read about that in RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] MPX Flamingo. Thanks
Thanks to all who have responded. Cheers. Juan RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] Resolution of the P-38 issue
In a message dated 10/27/2001 11:00:43 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not to mention the fact that Boeing's plane looked like a flying wood chipper. That was the beauty of the Boeing design. In peacetime, this thing could set down in your neighborhood, chip all those unsightly piles of tree trimmings, precisely distribute them where desired in your garden beds, and then take off. Much more practical than a Top Gun movie, dontcha think? Bill Wingstedt RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Aileron Fairings
Is there a source (other than the manufacture) for the Aileron Pushrod Fairings that usually come with the molded type sailplanes. They usualy cover the servo as well. G. M. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[RCSE] Cumberland 2001
My brother Paul and I made it to Cumberland for Saturday's flying. Winds were WNW 15-25. It was COLD, but we had a great day a flying. Thanks to Skip Schow for putting on a really fun event. There were two highlights for the flying. First was getting on the sticks of Denny Maize's new sloper, the Hammerhead. It is so named based on the appearance of the forward-swept wing. It's a great flyer. It's light enough to go when most 60 slopers can't, but it can also handle lots of ballast for rippin' acro. It's a great all around flyer; thermaling, acro, very fast. etc. Sounds like it will be VERY affordable, too. The second highlight was flying Paul's nats-winning XC ship, the SB-XC. It was the perfect plane for Cumberland. OK, it isn't a killer acro ship, but it ranges out really well, and it got the altitude of the day out over the valley. (The stab was getting hard to see!) The big ship is a delight to thermal and it does very graceful acro. I had fun doing BIG swooping chandelle's. One other note, the lift occasionally flushed yesterday, making an electric like Paul's Seledikin the ideal choice. Easy to launch and with the lift at Cumberland you only need the power to get you out of trouble, in spite of being loaded up with 21 cells. There was another Sled with 12 cells that did really well, too. Thanks again, Skip! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] Kevlar leading ledges
I have visted Phil who makes the Encores. He does alotof sanding of kevlar. I had thought sanding kevalr was imposssible, that is to stop the fiz, but Joe Wurts said there was a sandpaper that worked. Joe and Phil design together. Phil is a real craftman. Anyway, I tried th sandpaper and it works. So well that I have used the same piece on 3 HLG kevlar leading edge wings. No fiz. There are ways to set up yoou bagging so that the LE comes out nearly perfect. However may have to sacrafice your bags. I am aboutto try a new method some friends have tried and if it works for the LEs I'll let you know. I'll try to take pictures for my site. Chris - Original Message - From: aneil To: RCSE Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 11:17 PM Subject: [RCSE] Kevlar leading ledges Hi there, I've been making some Kahu DGL wings http://www.charlesriverrc.org/articles/kahudlg/chriskaiser_kahudlg.htm I've been using 1oz Kevlar and a 1.7oz (1inch) leading edge. I'd like to know if anybody out there has any insight on how to get prefect leading edges so they don't need any sanding (which you can't) after vacuum bagging? How do you get the leading edge to stop pinching under vacuum I guess the guys at Mapleleaf know how to do this, wana' share some secrets with us. Regards from DownUnder Aneil Patel.
Re: [RCSE] F**K
Pat, Any chance of viewing the video footage of your high speed DS impact? Dave PS. If anyone is interested I have some Quicktime movies of a bumpy DS session a few of us had yesterday evening. Conditions weren't ideal but still got some circuits in. http://homepage.mac.com/hotwings/ Auckland New Zealand ICQ: 62279963 http://www.rcmodels.com/clubs/asfcnz/index.html http://homepage.mac.com/hotwings/ From: Pat McCleave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 18:58:39 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], RCSE [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] F**K Denny, It is obvious he did not spend all day DS'ing his brains out like some of us did at Lake Wilson today. BTW, when did you say that new ODR plane will be ready? My Fun-1 had a little too much Fun today. It will fly again but lets just say it won't be quite as pretty as before. Something about a sudden stop at 80+. My buddy Mike was heard screaming loudly something about I got that as he was filming me DS'ing right before impact. At least I can say I am no longer a DS virgin, I have successfully stuffed one now. :o) See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS Ps, My cheeks are still sore from grinning so much. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RCSE] tip aileron theory (was 6 servo+stylus)
Good full-scale practice, once centered in the thermal, is to simply check whether the thermal has a much faster core by making tighter coordinated turns (obviously with steeper bank angle) for a couple of turns and see if the variometer indicates a higher rate of ascent. If so, try turning even tighter, until no further gain is made. You're finding the point where the losses in the vertical lift component caused by the steeper bank are no longer outweighed by centering tighter into the fastest part of the core. Detecting this increased rate of ascent in a model is another story, unless you have a vario. The upshot is: efficient coordinated turns are most important, and each thermal / sailplane combination has its own ideal bank angle. Regards Richard Knott Bell Equipment Co. South Africa Wheeled Loader Marketing, Specials Aftersales Support +27 (35) 907 9325 (ph) +27 (35) 907 9611 (fax) +27 (0) 82 775 8061 (mobile) This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
