Re: [RCSE] Re: Launching Sanity

[TJB]

Yep 6V winch motor run at 12 V  -- that's the way to get the best "6 V 
launch height".  There are some 6V motors that would wreck just about any 
plane  -- even run at 6 volts.  Not sure what voltage actually has to do 
with it.  Some guys can launch great or some can botch a launch on any type 
of winch.


- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: John Erickson
Cc: Soaring List
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 10:41 PM
Subject: RE: [RCSE] Re: Launching Sanity


Why must people take these simple ideas and suggest that the result might 
end up at an unacceptable level?


John, "6 Volt Launch Heights" ???

When we talk about balancing winch torque with a #300 lb line, I am pretty 
sure we are outside of the 6 volt launch realm...


Darwin, Chico, and Rick won't have any 'splainin to do Lucy..

Mike


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Re: Launching Sanity
From: John Erickson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, December 23, 2007 2:34 pm
To: dharban <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Soaring List


Or the set up at Visalia. Very few line breaks considering how many
launches they go through on a weekend.

All this resistance talk is good from a technical point of view, but for the
guys at the Southwest Classic they may have a marketing issue on their
hands. "Travel hundreds of miles, spend money staying here and look forward
to 6v launch heights. Guaranteed fewer line breaks".

I hope Chico and company have a good welcoming speech! I'm considering
taking along a smaller plane that might launch higher.

JE
--
Erickson Architects
John R. Erickson, AIA



From: dharban <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: RCGroups.com
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:19:00 -0600
To: soaring@airage.com
Subject: [RCSE] Re: Launching Sanity


One other thought. The winch setup at the Nats was excellent with
regard to reliability and uniformity. In addition, I did not find the
winches so powerful that they blew my hair back (at least what's left
of it).Perhaps someone who was responsible for the set up of these
winches would like to comment on the setup and what went into setting
them up.

Don


--
dharban

dharban's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=31927
View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=789230

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Re: [RCSE] line tension

[Chuck Anderson]

At 01:18 PM 12/23/2007, you wrote:
So Chuck,  Tell us how the tension limiter worked and how well it 
worked. What were the good points and problems?  Could such a scheme 
be used effectively today?


The Jam/Feb 1977 issue of Sailplane contained an article by Chet 
Tuthill describing the winch system developed by Jim Robinson and 
other members of the Coffee Airfoilers model airplane club.  The 
tension limiter was a major part of that article.  The tension 
limiter was a separate base for the standard winch.  For normal 
flying, the winch was removed from the base and used  like any other winch.


The base for the winch  had a pivot just ahead of the CG of the winch 
and battery and had a microswitch at the rear of the platform.  The 
tension limiter switch was wired in series with the foot peddle.  A 
spring held the platform against the switch until line tension caused 
the platform to rock forward opening the tension limiter 
switch.  When line tension decreased, the spring forced the platform 
aft closing the switch.  The inertia of the winch and battery gave a 
very smooth pulsing when launching larger models if the contestant 
held the foot peddle down and let the winch do the pulsing.


The tension limiter proved to be very reliable and we used if for 
many years.  As usual, there ain't no free lunch.  The tension 
limiter winch took a few minutes longer to set up but the 
considerable reduction in broken lines made it worth while.  The 
tension limiter was set by attaching a 25 pound spring scale to the 
tow ring and the bolt compressing the spring was screwed down until 
the desired pull was reached with the foot peddle held down.  We 
checked the tension limiter between rounds and adjusted as necessary 
to maintain a contestant pull.   The winch and turnaround were both 
mounted on the ground so the tension usually changed as the dew on 
the grass evaporated.   Mounting the winch and turnaround off the 
ground would reduce this problem.


After a few years, we began receiving complaints about not being able 
to zoom so in order to satisfy those who came to zoom instead of 
thermal, we added a bypass switch.  If the contestant chose to bypass 
the tension limiter, NO RELAUNCHES were permitted for broken tow 
lines.  A few people had trouble taping the peddle while the tension 
limiter was cycling.  These fliers could usually get better launches 
by putting the metal to the metal and letting the tension limiter do 
the tapping.  Fliers with Oly II's and similar models didn't notice 
any difference from normal winches.


We finally got tired of listening to complaints about not being able 
to get good zooms so discontinued using the tension limiter and went 
to heavier towlines.  The original tension limiter base is still 
rusting in the weeds behind my shed in the woods behind my house.


Chuck Anderson

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[RCSE] Re: line tension governor

[Mark Miller]

I'd like to wait and see what the real fall out is going to be. So far what I 
see is a lot of folks discussing doomsday without any real proof. It makes no 
sense to me to change all of the launch systems we have in the USA when none of 
these big planes (Icon 2, DP's new TD) are in existence yet. I can see being 
prepared and all but this is a major undertaking. Plus why invest in these 
fixes before any of these Uber planes are in existence to use as examples or 
proof of concept?  So far we have a few proposed solutions looking for a 
problem.


What's the deal? 2 American designed Uber planes are on the horizon and folks 
are all quaking in their boots. Will the extra pull of these planes on the 
winch when added to the pull of gravity of the moon cause sea levels to rise 
and all of our ocean front homes will fall into the sea? 


 It seems folks do not want to invest in winch technology to launch these Uber 
planes to their potential for fear they will put the dinky planes they already 
have at a disadvantage. They will rather invest in limiting the winches so that 
the big planes will not get the advantage on launch and folks can keep flying 
the dinky planes they have. That is until they see the efficiencies in flight 
of the big planes then everyone will join the bandwagon. Then they will all 
complain about weak winches. Round and round it goes. In the end no matter 
which way you go the good fliers will make it work.


In 30 years one of us will be in the same discussion and we will be able to 
keep Chuck's memory alive by saying "I did that 30 years ago and it didn't 
work".


Mark Miller



  

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[RCSE] line tension

[tony estep]

Chuck Anderson wrote:
...Jam/Feb 1977...very smooth pulsing...if the contestant

held the foot peddle down and let the winch do the pulsingtension 
limiter proved to be very reliable and we used if for

many yearsthe original tension limiter base is still

rusting in the weeds behind my shed in the woods behind my house.

=
Really interesting, Chuck. Proves there's nothing new under the sun.

Probably also proves that talk about F3B winches, limits on TD winches, etc. is 
unrealistic and that the quest for max catapult power will continue unabated.

Re: [RCSE] Re: line tension governor

[Jack Strother]

Well written, and probably true...
Thanks

--
Jack Strother   
Granger, IN 

LSF 2948
LSF Level V  #117
LSF Official 1996 - 2004
CSS Gold



 -- Original message --
From: Mark Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I'd like to wait and see what the real fall out is going to be. So far what I 
> see is a lot of folks discussing doomsday without any real proof. It makes no 
> sense to me to change all of the launch systems we have in the USA when none 
> of 
> these big planes (Icon 2, DP's new TD) are in existence yet. I can see being 
> prepared and all but this is a major undertaking. Plus why invest in these 
> fixes 
> before any of these Uber planes are in existence to use as examples or proof 
> of 
> concept?  So far we have a few proposed solutions looking for a problem.
> 
> 
> What's the deal? 2 American designed Uber planes are on the horizon and folks 
> are all quaking in their boots. Will the extra pull of these planes on the 
> winch 
> when added to the pull of gravity of the moon cause sea levels to rise and 
> all 
> of our ocean front homes will fall into the sea? 
> 
> 
>  It seems folks do not want to invest in winch technology to launch these 
> Uber 
> planes to their potential for fear they will put the dinky planes they 
> already 
> have at a disadvantage. They will rather invest in limiting the winches so 
> that 
> the big planes will not get the advantage on launch and folks can keep flying 
> the dinky planes they have. That is until they see the efficiencies in flight 
> of 
> the big planes then everyone will join the bandwagon. Then they will all 
> complain about weak winches. Round and round it goes. In the end no matter 
> which 
> way you go the good fliers will make it work.
> 
> 
> In 30 years one of us will be in the same discussion and we will be able to 
> keep 
> Chuck's memory alive by saying "I did that 30 years ago and it didn't work".
> 
> 
> Mark Miller
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

--- Begin Message ---
I'd like to wait and see what the real fall out is going to be. So far what I see is a lot of folks discussing doomsday without any real proof. It makes no sense to me to change all of the launch systems we have in the USA when none of these big planes (Icon 2, DP's new TD) are in existence yet. I can see being prepared and all but this is a major undertaking. Plus why invest in these fixes before any of these Uber planes are in existence to use as examples or proof of concept?  So far we have a few proposed solutions looking for a problem.What's the deal? 2 American designed Uber planes are on the horizon and folks are all quaking in their boots. Will the extra pull of these planes on the winch when added to the pull of gravity of the moon cause sea levels to rise and all of our ocean front homes will fall into the sea?  It seems folks do not want to invest in winch technology to launch these Uber planes to their potential for fear they will put the dinky planes they already have at a disadvantage. They will rather invest in limiting the winches so that the big planes will not get the advantage on launch and folks can keep flying the dinky planes they have. That is until they see the efficiencies in flight of the big planes then everyone will
 join the bandwagon. Then they will all complain about weak winches. Round and round it goes. In the end no matter which way you go the good fliers will make it work.In 30 years one of us will be in the same discussion and we will be able to keep Chuck's memory alive by saying "I did that 30 years ago and it didn't work".Mark Miller

  Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

--- End Message ---

Re: [RCSE] line tension

[Jack Strother]

We ran one of those in Cincinnati, for years, It was mine that I had built, 
from the plans, that I think I still have.
We quit using it for the very reasons that Chuck has stated.
I ended up giving the frame away...Damn it was 30 years ago

--
Jack Strother   
Granger, IN 

LSF 2948
LSF Level V  #117
LSF Official 1996 - 2004
CSS Gold



 -- Original message --
From: tony estep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Chuck Anderson wrote:
> ...Jam/Feb 1977...very smooth pulsing...if the contestant
> 
> held the foot peddle down and let the winch do the pulsingtension 
> limiter proved to be very reliable and we used if for
> 
> many yearsthe original tension limiter base is still
> 
> rusting in the weeds behind my shed in the woods behind my house.
> 
> =
> Really interesting, Chuck. Proves there's nothing new under the sun.
> 
> Probably also proves that talk about F3B winches, limits on TD winches, etc. 
> is 
> unrealistic and that the quest for max catapult power will continue unabated.
> 


--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Anderson wrote:...Jam/Feb 1977...very smooth pulsing...if the contestant
held the foot peddle down and let the winch do the pulsingtension limiter proved to be very reliable and we used if for
many yearsthe original tension limiter base is still
rusting in the weeds behind my shed in the woods behind my house.
=Really interesting, Chuck. Proves there's nothing new under the sun.Probably also proves that talk about F3B winches, limits on TD winches, etc. is unrealistic and that the quest for max catapult power will continue unabated.--- End Message ---

RE: [RCSE] Re: line tension governor

[Daryl Perkins]

Mark, and gang,

This is not a new problem. Line breaks at contests due to ships getting
larger and winches more powerful have been a worsening problem for the
past few years. (Insert redneck twang here) "This is America. We love
horsepower" It's nice to see some clubs and individuals being
proactive and searching out a real solution as opposed to the "you break
it, you fly it mentality." (I've been breaking lines while tapping and
about 50 to 75 lbs of tension - educated guess) Reducing line size
creates a weak link of its own. Stronger line, and the model becomes the
weak link. Anyone see Joe blow up his "unbreakable" model at the
Masters?

As a budding manufacturer, coming out with a rather large model, it'll
be very nice if winch strength could become to be more standardized, so
I'll know how strong I have to build these things, without just throwing
all sorts of unnecessary weight at them. I'm not naive enough to believe
that all clubs will follow a standard, but as I travel across the states
to compete, I'd like to know there is some form of generally accepted
standard to build and practice to. I shouldn't have to build a model
twice as strong to compete in Muncie, as opposed to Visalia. 

One other note that hasn't really been addressed. As a competitor who's
fairly skilled at this launch thing, less power creates more of an
advantage. Horsepower is the great equalizer, allowing guys with less
skill, less finesse, and more poorly set up models to get close to the
same launch height. 

Again - no-one is talking about radically reducing winch strength, just
some form of acceptable standard, and matching the winch to the line
strength. 

Merry Christmas to all, and to all, a good flight!!!



Darylperkins.com LLC.
1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403

www.darylperkins.com








>  Original Message 
> Subject: [RCSE] Re: line tension governor
> From: Mark Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, December 24, 2007 7:44 am
> To: Tony Estep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Allen Priest
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: soaring@airage.com
> I'd like to wait and see what the real fall out is going to be. So far what I 
> see is a lot of folks discussing doomsday without any real proof. It makes no 
> sense to me to change all of the launch systems we have in the USA when none 
> of these big planes (Icon 2, DP's new TD) are in existence yet. I can see 
> being prepared and all but this is a major undertaking. Plus why invest in 
> these fixes before any of these Uber planes are in existence to use as 
> examples or proof of concept?  So far we have a few proposed solutions 
> looking for a problem.
> What's the deal? 2 American designed Uber planes are on the horizon and folks 
> are all quaking in their boots. Will the extra pull of these planes on the 
> winch when added to the pull of gravity of the moon cause sea levels to rise 
> and all of our ocean front homes will fall into the sea? 
>  It seems folks do not want to invest in winch technology to launch these 
> Uber planes to their potential for fear they will put the dinky planes they 
> already have at a disadvantage. They will rather invest in limiting the 
> winches so that the big planes will not get the advantage on launch and folks 
> can keep flying the dinky planes they have. That is until they see the 
> efficiencies in flight of the big planes then everyone will join the 
> bandwagon. Then they will all complain about weak winches. Round and round it 
> goes. In the end no matter which way you go the good fliers will make it work.
> In 30 years one of us will be in the same discussion and we will be able to 
> keep Chuck's memory alive by saying "I did that 30 years ago and it didn't 
> work".
> Mark Miller
>   
> 
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

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[RCSE] Re: Launching Sanity

[Lincoln Ross]

I don't know about you guys raving about the Uber planes, but for me, 
the best glider is one that's just barely good enough* to have good 
flights on the particular day in question. While I think the spot 
landing is a very good thing, not least for safety reasons**, I would 
like the pilot's thermaling ability to enter into it also. On any kind 
of decent day it takes very little skill to keep even today's 3 meter 
planes up. (Difficult days are, of course, another matter.) So, while 
you guys with thin wallets (I refer to current state of wallet, not cash 
flow or pre purchase state) and long wingspans bore holes in the sky 
like a powered plane***, I'm working on my skills by flying junk. Of 
course, it's really easy to limit the performance of your Uber plane for 
more challenging practice, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone add 
drag intentionally.


To clarify for people who think more is always better, even in voltage 
ratings, if you run a motor wound for 6V on 12V, it will suck down a LOT 
more current and be far more powerful than one wound for 12V. At times, 
that may be enough to let the smoke out of the motor, and then it won't 
work anymore.  Of course, you could  put two 12V batteries in series and 
run a 12V motor, but I won't be responsible for the results.


I think we reached the point of diminishing returns a long time ago, as 
I'm pretty sure I have as much fun at the field as anyone, without using 
a glider that costs more than my car. (Or at least not more than it cost 
when I bought it. By now there are probably hamburgers that are worth more.)



*My DLG is often not in this category. With a lousy launch like mine, I 
need the best, and I don't have it.
**I don't like getting beaned by a glider any more than anyone else. If 
someone is good at spot landings, chances are they are good at placing 
their glider away from people. Anyone who's seen a flier knocked down by 
an errant glider knows what I'm talking about. So I don't want anyone to 
make the landings easier, just figure out a way to make the thermalling 
harder. Start a contest at 4PM?
***A .40 sized pattern style electric may be cheaper than an Uber plane 
and will certainly bore a longer hole in less time.

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[RCSE] winch/Line talk

[ivanbrian]

I notice most, (not all) folks who are looking for a better way to limit winch 
power on our present winch/line problems are folks who put on events. I was the 
winch master at a pretty decent size event last summer and some of the nicest 
folks said some pretty unkind things to me while I stood out it the 90 degree 
weather for 3 days trying to make it a fun time for all who attended. 
  I personally think it "IS" time to limit the winch power to run safely on 200 
pound line.
 The soaring gang are a very wise bunch and I'm confident it will happen soon 
and be followed all across the country as a standard.  As Daryl mentioned even 
the manufacturers will benefit from the "new" technology.. Brian Smith

[RCSE] Where's the soaring column in MA this month?

[Ben Wilson]

Just wonderin'

Ben
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[RCSE] Good Guy alert

[ivanbrian]

Mike Lee went more than the extra mile for me on a deal we had.. Thanks Mike.. 
Brian Smith

Re: [RCSE] Where's the soaring column in MA this month?

[Darwin N. Barrie]

Hey Ben,

I screwed up and missed the deadline. I'm getting caught up now. Back on 
track.


Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
- Original Message - 
From: "Ben Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 11:13 AM
Subject: [RCSE] Where's the soaring column in MA this month?



Just wonderin'

Ben
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[RCSE] Launching Sanity

[John Erickson]

Mike,

I¹m the ³people² here, but I¹m just following the sage advice of those who
have gone before us.  Chuck¹s testament:

"After a few years, we began receiving complaints about not being able
to zoom so in order to satisfy those who came to zoom instead of
thermal, we added a bypass switch.  If the contestant chose to bypass
the tension limiter, NO RELAUNCHES were permitted for broken tow
lines.  A few people had trouble taping the peddle while the tension
limiter was cycling.  These fliers could usually get better launches
by putting the metal to the metal and letting the tension limiter do
the tapping.  Fliers with Oly II's and similar models didn't notice
any difference from normal winches.

We finally got tired of listening to complaints about not being able
to get good zooms so discontinued using the tension limiter and went
to heavier towlines.  The original tension limiter base is still
rusting in the weeds behind my shed in the woods behind my house."

I¹m going to launch and adjust to whatever set up the good people running
the Southwest come up with.  The last thing I want to do is make any
decision harder for them.  The problem last year was line breaks, and they
had lots of new line.  We¹ve been finding that the Memphis Twine batches
recently have had thin spots.  Once these are cut out you get some long
runs.

The guys are going to elevate the turnaround and winch, which should make
things more powerful, and less susceptible to nicks from the ground.  I¹m
sure they will come up with a balanced solution.  My point is if the winches
become too soft there will undoubtedly be some grumblings, just like there
are if there are too many line breaks.  It¹s tough hosting a contest!

I think the idea of flying off F3B winches is great but there are several
issues that come up:

1. Retriever set up for a large contest?
2. Inventory of average club
3. Cost of mono; having different diameter for different wind conditions

The plus side is that it is a regulated amount of torque and airplane
designers can use that for design parameters.  And it¹s International.

JE
--
Erickson Architects
John R. Erickson, AIA



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Re: [RCSE] line tension

[Chuck Anderson]

This afternoon, I went out in the woods behind my garage and dug out 
the original tension limiter winch base and brushed off the leaves to 
take some photographs.  The base is rusty and  the wiring is shot but 
could be refurbished with a little sand blasting, painting, 
and  replace the  wiring.  I posted the photos on RC Groups for those 
who would like to know what it looked like.


Chuck Anderson

At 09:50 AM 12/24/2007, you wrote:
We ran one of those in Cincinnati, for years, It was mine that I had 
built, from the plans, that I think I still have.

We quit using it for the very reasons that Chuck has stated.
I ended up giving the frame away...Damn it was 30 years ago

--
Jack Strother
Granger, IN

LSF 2948
LSF Level V  #117
LSF Official 1996 - 2004
CSS Gold


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[RCSE] January issue of RCSD finally on-line!

[Bill & Bunny Kuhlman]

We're pleased to announce the January 2008 issue of RC Soaring Digest 
is now available for downloading from the RCSD web site 
. The issue highlights are now 
available at .


This issue has 36 pages and is 6.6 MB in size.

If you are using a dial-up connection and desire a smaller RCSD PDF, 
consider downloading the highly compressed version of this issue 
(about 2.3 MB) from the RCSoaringDigest Yahoo! groups Files section. 
The image quality is reduced, but download time is significantly 
less. You must be a member of the RCSoaringDigest Yahoo! group to 
download these compressed PDFs.


If you're using a broad-band connection, you may want to download the 
"original" high quality PDF of this issue (12.9 MB ) from the RC 
Soaring Digest web site 
.


In the interests of bandwidth and server usage, we ask that you 
download only ONE version of each monthly issue from the RC Soaring 
Digest web site. That is, download either the "normal" size issue 
from the main or highlights page link, or download the "full size" 
version from  folder - not both.


Thanks for your continued readership!



--
Bill & Bunny Kuhlman
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Re: [RCSE] Futaba FAST 2.4g

[Craig Allen]

What A nice article on the Futaba FAST 2.4gig system. Looks like it beats all 
others hands down when it comes to installing in a carbon fuz :-)))  Only one 
receiver with long antennas... 

You mean I don't have to buy all new planes to use 2.4... WOW!!!

Kind of makes U wonder what other manufactures were thinking... Or weren't 
thinking...

Looks like Santa flies Futaba :-) hehe..

Merry Christmas to all and to all good flights :-)

Craig



Bill & Bunny Kuhlman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  
We're pleased to announce the January 2008 issue of RC Soaring Digest 
is now available for downloading from the RCSD web site 
. The issue highlights are now 
available at .

This issue has 36 pages and is 6.6 MB in size.

If you are using a dial-up connection and desire a smaller RCSD PDF, 
consider downloading the highly compressed version of this issue 
(about 2.3 MB) from the RCSoaringDigest Yahoo! groups Files section. 
The image quality is reduced, but download time is significantly 
less. You must be a member of the RCSoaringDigest Yahoo! group to 
download these compressed PDFs.

If you're using a broad-band connection, you may want to download the 
"original" high quality PDF of this issue (12.9 MB ) from the RC 
Soaring Digest web site 
.

In the interests of bandwidth and server usage, we ask that you 
download only ONE version of each monthly issue from the RC Soaring 
Digest web site. That is, download either the "normal" size issue 
from the main or highlights page link, or download the "full size" 
version from  folder - not both.

Thanks for your continued readership!
 

-- 
Bill & Bunny Kuhlman
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