RE: [RCSE] Contest format
Now who is arguing for political correctness? Thanks for your interest, anyway. Remember that the format is not precision. Everybody who caught the air just flies past the target time and lands within the thirty seconds to collect their ten points. If somebody landed early while somebody else was still flying, He lost the round. That should have a price, as you correctly pointed out, to be fair to everybody else. The situation where everybody hits sink and has to scratch for that last minute before the max is one of the more exciting elements of the format and has validity as a competitive format since it is not what happens in good air that separates the good pilots from the rest, it is who does the best job with the air they have. Think about it. Tim -Original Message- From: tony estep [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:14 AM To: Soaring Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest format - Original Message From: Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...in a real contest, 9 points or less out of ten, which corresponds to 900 or less out of 1000, is a low score. So what do you do when you have a typical OVSS field where 4 out of the 7 guys come within a couple of seconds of the max? One has 10:00, one has 10:01, one has 9:58, one has 9:57. You give them 10, 9, 8, 7 respectively? The same as if they scored 10, 9, 8, and 7 minutes? I don't think so.
[RCSE] Contest Format
This past November, I was contest director for a monthly contest of the Soaring League of North Texas at which I tried out a new format for Man-on-Man competition. It was well received. The format addresses a few of my pet peeves about soaring contests. I offer this description in the hopes that readers of the exchange may be interested. First, a few comments about my objectives: Fast paced contest. Scoring and judging must be easy and quick. Minimal luck factor. Everyone has a chance to succeed on each flight. A blown flight does not end your day. A blown landing does not end your day. No dropped rounds; all flights count. Emphasis on flying and consistency. A contest not won in the air, cannot be won in the landing circle. No sandbagging or air poaching. The format is seeded Man-on-Man, which addresses several of the objectives on its own. The task is duration; not precision. Scoring is based on points awarded for landing order, last down wins. Landing scores are for breaking ties only. Five winches were set up to launch flight groups of up to four flyers. The usual Man-on-Man procedures regarding pop-offs and line breaks are used. Winds were fifteen gusting to twenty-five MPH. The time target was set at nine minutes. Only one max flight was achieved. Lower winds would call for longer target times, but they need not be impossible, just challenging, for the format to be valid. Scoring is based on a ten (10) point scale. The last one down and everyone who achieves the target max gets first place in the flight group and scores ten (10) points. Second place gets nine (9) points, third place gets eight (8) points, and fourth place gets seven (7) points. If there are three making the max, the fourth flyer gets seven (7) points. If there are two making the max the other two get eight (8) and seven (7), respectively. In flight groups of three the lowest score is eight (8) and the lowest score in groups of two is nine (9) points. No groups of less than two are flown, except if someone scratches between rounds. A maximum of thirty seconds to land after the target is allowed or the flight is considered off field. Off field landings score last place points and all other flyers in the flight group move up a place if the off field flyer lands after them. You cannot beat anybody by landing off field no matter how long you flew. If two flyers get the same time, less than the target, they each get the points for the place they tied for. For example, if they tied for first, they get ten (10) points each, if for second, nine (9) points, etc. Landing points have no role in determining the outcome of individual rounds. Landing points are recorded and used to break ties in the final standings. If somebody does not score as well as you in the air, he cannot beat you with landing points. Landing points are also used to determine seeding and winch choice. The flyer with the higher landing points, if tied for last position in a flight group, gets the advantage of flying in the next lower scoring flight group. Winch choice, which is based on seeding, is resolved among tied contestants by landing scores. Coin flips and fist fights are secondary tie breakers in such cases, based on mutual agreement of the tied flyers. The pace of the contest is improved because once there is only one in the air, there is no value in continuing to fly so the winner lands and the next group can fly. No burying the group while everyone waits. Timers are required to communicate about the time to beat. Scoring is second grade arithmetic; could not be simpler or quicker. No waiting around to figure the seeding. Larger flight groups can be flown, but to keep everyone in the game, scores lower than seven (7) are not recommended. Small flight groups give more contestants a chance to succeed even if they do not win overall. This keeps interest and enjoyment up. This must be balanced against the time needed to fly a round. The more rounds the better. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Jim Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to bury someone who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address. By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance of any competitor. I guess a key objective I left out was: Respect for the dignity of all participants. I also think ...maximizing available flying time during a contest... is better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest format
There is some validity to your point about penalizing the 6 except that in a real contest, 9 points or less out of ten, which corresponds to 900 or less out of 1000, is a low score. Once the issue is decided lets start the next flight group. -Original Message- From: tony estep [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 10:53 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] Contest format Original message: Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this at TNT... === Marc is right on. At a real contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their failure is better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort of like allowing free popoffs.
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
I have a friend who once bet a guy he could run a mile in four minutes. Thinking himself no fool, the guy took the bet and made a date to meet at the high school track the next morning. Once on the track the guy said Ready, Go. and started the watch. My friend stood there looking at him. The guy said, What are you doing? My friend said, Let me know when it's four minutes and I will run the mile as I said. The guy laughed, OK you got me, I'll pay you, but at four minutes you better run the whole mile. My friend almost died. He hadn't run that far in years. It is all in the format of the contest. Tim -Original Message- From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:27 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock, determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off. Just jumping in and pokin some fun. Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-) Darylperkins.com LLC. 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 www.darylperkins.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Marc, Thanks for the comments. In answer to your questions, we have only tried this once, but we have been doing something similar for years for class A sailplanes using upstarts with scoring on a four point scale. We use head-to-head results rather than landings for tie breaking and rarely have to go beyond that. In really good weather, this contest format becomes a landing contest at the top just like any TD contest. The difference is that there is more emphasis on consistent flying than on times less than max. The course granularity of the scoring separates the competitors pretty quickly so you end up with a group with all tens and the rest pretty spread out. The landings decide the issue for those with the tens and any other ties as well. The one time we did it one guy had all tens and there were only two other ties. We didn't get in very many rounds, though. -Original Message- From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:11 PM To: Tim Bennett Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format Tim, Good idea, and you had the perfect conditions for this format of MOM, but would this have worked so well if the conditions were near perfect? I realize that you can break ties and such, but in the summer up here, even doing seeded MOM in our normal fashion, after six to eight rounds we will have the top five in a twenty point spread sometimes. I would think that this would get so tight that you would have a knot at the top so close that it might not break. Have you done it when it was nmicer or was this your first time out? Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] TNT Schedule?
Title: TNT Schedule? The pilots' meeting starts at 9:00 AM, first flights at 9:45 AM at Southfork Ranch. Hope to see you there. Tim Bennett CD - Original Message - From: George Voss To: RCSE Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:02 PM Subject: [RCSE] TNT Schedule? What time does DLG start Friday morning? gv
Re: [RCSE] Gull wing sheeting with ply
Scott, I was going through old posts this morning and found yours. There has been no response so I am offering my knowlege in answer to the how did they do it in full scale question. On a visit to the Spruce Goose Museum in Long Beach several years ago I saw an extensive photographic display that explained the plywood technology employed in that aircraft that was supposedly the state of the art at the time of the Spruce Goose project. I think the British Lancaster Bomber was built in a similar manner. What they did was build steel male and female mold sets in the shape of the curved parts they needed. Wood veneers were steamed and glued then laid up in the molds cross grain in multiple layers. This was cured under steam heat and pressure until the glue set. A smooth curved part was removed from the mold ready to be trimmed and fastened to the framework of the structure. The trick is that the wood was not plywood until after the curve was established. They had photos of parts that appeared to be about 1/2 inch or less thick with people standing on the high point of the curve with little appearant deflection. These things were very stiff and strong. I hope this helps. Tim Bennett - Original Message - From: Scott Hinckley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 2:28 PM Subject: [RCSE] Gull wing sheeting with ply I have several 1/4 scale plans for 1930's sailplanes with gull wings. Some have a sharp line (no curve) in the spar between the sections, and at least one has a nicely laminated curved spar transitioning between the sections. I have read that the curved transition is most correct. The wings are generally sheeted with .4mm (1/64) ply, which doesn't allow enough thickness for blending after sheeting. What is the technique for sheeting a curved transition with 1/64 ply? It seems that it would not conform easily to the compound curve. How did they do it on the full size wood sailplanes? Scott Hinckley __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Some Thoughts on AMA
your head without knocking you off your feet (300+ MPH). The soaring community needs AMA to address these issues and represent soaring's needs more than it needs to represent all the flyers from region 7 versus those from region 8. We need representatives that know that a hand launch glider doesn't use a jet turbine engine. We need to not be paying insurance premiums for helicopters and fifty-pound, multi-engine meat grinders when we fly ten ounce floaters. Just some thoughts. I am putting on my flame-proof suit now. Tim Bennett RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Kill switch for winch
I have seen knife switches attached to the top of the batteries on winches before and I too was concerned about the explosion hazzard until I observed that the lanyard was nylon. No worries about sparks when in the event of a short the lanyard melts! Tim - Original Message - From: Norman E. Timbs, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Paul Emerson' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'RCSE' soaring@airage.com Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 2:42 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] Kill switch for winch Guys, Please don't put knife switches on top of your batteries. When you really need to use them is the wrong time to make a nice big spark near the battery. Battery explosions are awful. Use a sealed switch. Norm PBSS -Original Message- From: Paul Emerson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 11:20 AM To: RCSE Subject: Re: [RCSE] Kill switch for winch I replied to Ed, but forgot to share with the list: Our club uses a knife switch with a lanyard attached to the switch that sits by the retriever operator. Looks like this one, although ours moves sideways and not up and down: http://tinyurl.com/bffb4 Very easy to grab and yank the lanyard to power off quickly in a real emergency. On 6/3/05, Ed Jett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks to all that replied. I have one on order now and should be all fixed up shortly. Ed Jett - Original Message - From: Ed Jett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [RCSE] soaring@airage.com Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:12 PM Subject: [RCSE] Kill switch for winch What kind of switch do you use as a manual kill switch for winches? Where do you get them? Be as specific as you can with your answer. Thanks in Advance, Ed Jett RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] A little solace for the thermal deprived crowd
Does this qualify as a Cross Country? Jack, Good luck with the surgery. Tim - Original Message - From: Bruce Hobbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'John' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'RCSE' soaring@airage.com Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 10:39 AM Subject: RE: [RCSE] A little solace for the thermal deprived crowd If Jack can thermal his full scale sailplane from the Houston area to Ft. Wayne.and carry his models along..well then.he's got my nod for next soaring World Champion! BCNU Bruce Hobbs -Original Message- From: John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 10:26 AM To: RCSE Subject: RE: [RCSE] A little solace for the thermal deprived crowd Jack, Loft has a contest on at Salomon Farm Sunday. Its about 4 mi. north of Smith Field (full size), Fort Wayne. Fly the full size in and fly the models with us. We could pick you up and deliver you back. John -Original Message- From: Jack Womack [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 10:05 AM To: Tom H. Nagel; RCSE Subject: Re: [RCSE] A little solace for the thermal deprived crowd I'll shed a tear for you Saturday when I expect to get to about 6,000 feet, where I expect cloudbase to be... Sorry to rub it in, but I couldn't help it. Saturday will be my last time to fly, models or full size, for a good while. I will be having surgery Monday and won't get to fly until September or later... You can rub it in when I lament... It will probably be a killer summer. Jack Womack --- Tom H. Nagel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those of you who like myself have been suffering thermal withdrawal due to the mandates of family, work or weather, here is a little thermal activity, courtesy of JPL, on the planet Mars. The way things have been going for me lately, the nearest thermal might as well be on Mars. Enjoy! http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Switch Harness Problem
This sounds like a binding servo problem. On the earlier launch, the power bus may have been pulled down by the overcurrent causing the momentary control lockup you described. Releasing from the winch may have released the bind allowing the resumption of normal control. This reasoning continues that on the later launch a repeat of the bind caused an overcurrent that blew the circuit on the switch board which was damaged by overheating during the earlier overload. Just guessing. An onboard battery checker may have helped to disclose this condition in advance if you watched it while exercising the servos and possibly loading the surfaces by hand on the ground prior to flight. Good luck, Tim Bennett RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Radio Charging Error-advice please
One point I haven't seen addressed in this thread is the possibility of damage to the charger. I have both Futaba and JR radios in my shop and have had the experience Scobie had a couple of times (slow learner, I guess). The batteries in the transmitter were not measurably damaged, but the wallwart chargers were ruined. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] New post: hi starts
A few years ago I built a Klingberg wing. Although I intended it for slope soaring, I chose to use my trusty upstart for the initial test flights. After a few hand tosses seemed to show that the CG and elevons were set up right I hooked the tow hook to the chute of the upstart and stretched it out. I guess I didn't quite have the tow hook in the right place because when I released the model it went up about fifteen feet then started a high speed and very tight flat spin still hooked onto the line. It went around about four rotations then released from the line shooting out in a 90 degree bank at surprisingly high speed flying parallel to the ground to the right. This did a real good simulation of a pucker-factor 9 situation for me and I was fortunate enough to make the right control inputs to save the model. When I landed, my son, who was the only one watching was in complete shock but soon broke into peels of laughter followed by the inevitible, Do that again! I adjusted the tow hook as far forward as the setup would allow, but this only delayed the onset of the condition to higher altitudes. The model would still spin then randomly squirt off the upstart in whatever direction would cause the most confusion and test my ability to recover. I took the thing home and created a more forward tow hook location, but didn't use it right away. The next day's flying session offered me a chance to show off my new trick to my friends who all immediately lined up to try it themselves. That model and the upstart gave us some real laughs and excitement. And amazingly enough, we never crashed it. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Retreiver bicycle sprocket
If you are wondering why this hub failed, you might consider how you are using it compared to what it was designed for. These ball bearing hubs were designed for 26-28 diameter wheels that travel at a maximum or 50 mph or 1880 to 2030 rpm. If your winch retreives at 30 feet per second this means that the hub with its diameter of .58 must spin at 11,900 rpm. This might explain why they are so noisy. Although the radial load is a lot less in this application, I think the speed is a bit over the design expectations, don't you. Tim Bennett - Original Message - From: James R MacLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:53 PM Subject: [RCSE] Retreiver bicycle sprocket Sunday our club is having a monthly contest and this time it is sailplanes. I have been promoting glider flying in our club for about the last five years and the club contests now draw about 20 souls who are getting much more competent with their planes. It was a nice day and no one broke anything. Most made their times and all had a good time. But, on saturday we checked out the equipment and the retreiver bicycle sprocket bail was broke! This is a Rham retreiver which has given us good service for about five years. No problem I think. Just go down to Bob's bicycle shop and buy a new one. Oops. They laugh and say where did you get that old timer! Some time later, the new sprocket bearing is ready with their help and some luck looking in the back of some of their junk drawers. We are OK for now. Where do you go to get an old time front sprocket or at least some new ball bearings to rebuild the sprocket? And the 9/16 thin open end wrench needed to tighten the locking nuts. Advice and thoughts appreciated. Jim MacLean, Melbourne, FL RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Lawyers are killing the kit business
I beg to differ. There is another potentially cheaper and quicker fix. The issue is that the historic military aircraft that were developed with public moneys are being claimed as the private property of Lockheed Martin and other military contractors. The question of fact is the ownership of this intellectual property. The American people paid for it and should own the rights to what they paid for. Congress can, and should, fix this with the stroke of a pen. Write to your congressmen and senators making this argument. How can they possibly oppose it? Meanwhile, leave Gordy and the rest of us alone. Tim - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Soaring@airage.com Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Lawyers are killing the kit business The only way to settle this is if some kit manufacturer (perhaps one created just for this purpose) volunteers to become the test case and get sued by Lockmart, or counter-sue them. If we all contributed a dollar or two to a legal defense fund, we could keep it going for the several years it would take to work thru the court system and get a final ruling that makes sense. Nothing less is going to solve this. Consider this another aspect of the issue of finding and retaining flying sites: for the long-term health and SURVIVAL of our hobby, we need to fight this battle and win it. I'm on the fence as to whether or not to involve the AMA in this. What do you guys think? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Mold Help?
I was reviewing these messages this afternoon and came across this thread. Larry is correct in that the issue can be strictly about ratios, the absolute numbers are not important in relation to weight as long as the system balances and the tare weights are not out of whack. I think his description in the original response addresses this OK. My concern is when he talks about using pennies for weights. I built a similar coin based scale for my kids to use in a science project in school and ran into trouble using pennies, so I know. It seems that there are two species of US pennies in circulation that differ dramatically in weight. The copper clad zinc coins made after 1978 weigh 2.5 grams while the older solid copper coins that were made before 1978 weigh 3.33 grams. Mix them and your balance beam scale will give you some funny results. It is fun, however, to bet your kids that you can prove that two pennies (new style) equal one nickel (five grams). Or that three pennies (old style) equals two nickels. - Original Message - From: Larry Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Harley Michaelis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: soaring@airage.com Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Mold Help? NO! You would take your 4 coins on one side and put something close to what you want it can be any amount. Than Balance it on a point that both sides are are now balanced. The stick may only have 3inches where the resin is and 10inchs where the coins are. You just find where it balances. Than you add the one more coin and add the hardner till it balances again at that same balance point. You will have the 4 parts Resin and 1 part Hardner in the cup. Just try putting 4 quarters on one side and 4 pennys on the other side balance it than add the quarter to the quarter and penny to the penny side and it will balance. - Original Message - From: Harley Michaelis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Larry Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Mold Help? Hi Larry. . .I think you have something here, but it needs some clarification, starting with Let's say you want to mix up 7 ounces of resin and hardener and at a ratio of 4 parts resin and 1 part hardener by weight. Here is what you do. Having made the beam and the cup setup, I gather that you'd first determine what 5 of some coin, nut, bolt ,etc. of equal denomination or size would weigh 7 oz. You'd then pour (pore?) out enough resin to equal 4 of them in weight, add one more coin, etc and add hardener to equal the 5. Is that the gist of the thing? - Original Message - From: Larry Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: soaring@airage.com Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Mold Help? Here is a trick that I learned from a world champ. you take a long stick (8 to 18 inches) and get some items that weigh the same ( Dimes, Quarter,Dollars coins) Take 10 coins and put it in a little plastic cup. The cup has to be suspended by a wire loop going around and bent up to the long stick where you drill a hole and the hole thing pivots in.. The other end you do the same thing with a cup to hold the epoxy in. . With nothing in the cups it should balance. If not make it balance exactly in the middle of the stick. Now take the 10 coins put them on one side and put as much epoxy as you need in the other side and than find the balance point of the coins and epoxy. Add the 11th coin and pore in the catalyst in the Epoxy you will now have your 10 to 1 ratio. This is the same with 5 to 1 mix with 5 coins. This is fast and accurate. I had forgot how to do this my self till I was shown. I use to put one washer on a balance beam and dump washer on the other side till it balanced and I would have 100 with out counting and it works!! I counted it once just to make sure for myself - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: [RCSE] Mold Help? Hi All, I know this is off topic but I need help with a mixture ratio for ACP's tooling resin and thought someone here might know. My digital scale died and I can't find one locally. The mixture ratio on the can is 10:1 by weight but no mention of mixing by volume. Anyone else use their tooling resin and have any idea what the mix by volume would be? Snowing like crazy here and I'd like to lay up a mold while the weather is bad. Happy flying, Jim www.jtmodels.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe
Re: [RCSE] Pondering T-tails
Another possible drag reduction: No hat hanging there. - Original Message - From: Bill Swingle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Thomas Koszuta [EMAIL PROTECTED]; RCSE soaring@airage.com Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Pondering T-tails More Efficient Pardon? I've not heard anything indicating this. What could this be attributed to? Maybe: 1. Gets tail out of the down wash of the wing. 2. Helps the interference drag at the point of union of the fin and stab. These are the only possiblities I can think of but they're pretty minimal. I'd not hang my hat on either. Any more possibilities? Bill Swingle Janesville, CA RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] HLG Contest Format
We see a variety of models. Pilot skill seems to be key. Poly birds are preferred and the wood wing Monarchs are the class of the field. We publish the model type as well full results in the SLNT newsletter in PDF format at the following link: http://www.slnt.org/newsletters/newletter.htm Tim - Original Message - From: regis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] HLG Contest Format Sounds like fun! But I am curious as to what models are flown: older HLGs vs. newer DLGs, Polly vs. flaperon, or originals? Maybe a little of all? Regis RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] zip launch HLGs
I am the CD for hand-launch for the SLNT. We have a contest every month, even in the winter thanks to our usually good weather. We haven't used the zip starts that Bruce describes for a couple of years due to the emergence of disk launch and the difficulty of achieving reasonable equivalence between a zip start and disk launch.To match a good disk launch, you almost need an upstart which is so long and time consuming toshag and stretch that you arehard pressed toget more than three launches in a ten minute time slot. Other models getting snagged in the line or flyers getting tangled in it on the ground are also problems we have seen.As a result, the zip starts have fallen into disuse. - Original Message - From: Bruce Hobbs To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 3:22 PM Subject: [RCSE] zip launch HLGs Soaring League of North Texas (SLNT) puts a length of string or monofilament inside the surgical tube that limits how far you can stretch the hi-start thus making the energy and resultant launch height fairly close to what the DLGs boys can get. Yep, the zip start guys are anchored in place and cannot move around the field like the DLG throwers .but .nothings perfect .and it gets a lot of guys out to the field flying their older ships and having fun. BCNU Bruce Hobbs
[RCSE] HLG Contest Format
For the last several years we at the Soaring League of North Texas (SLNT) have been developing a competition format we call the Class-A Scramble using 50 meter upstarts. The upstart is 25' of 3/16 natural yellow rubber (~$40 for 100' at Tower) with enough monofilament to make 50 meters plus a color coded parachute. We set out four identical upstarts side-by-side on the field with matching color cones set at a distance measured for a four pound pull. Flight groups of four models launch together and fly until the last is down. Points are awarded based on one for first down, two for second, up to four for the last guy down. We run a watch on each flight group so all flyers still in the air at the end of five minutes get four points. If a model lands out of bounds, he gets a zero and all the others in the group get credit for beating him regardless of when he landed. Each flyer flies the same number of rounds (usually six or eight). The scramble part comes from the fact that flyers can fly whenever they want. Eventually, if someone is way behind on flights he will be asked to step up, but otherwise each goes when he wants. It helps if there are no frequency conflicts so we ask guys to come prepared to change frequencies. We keep track of the flight group results so ties can usually be resolved based on head-to-head matchups. If there is an uneven number or someone drops out, we have dummy flyers fill out the last flight groups. The dummies are volunteers from those with the lowest total scores. To make dummy rounds competitive, a dummy can use the result of the dummy round to replace his lowest score. Usually, in the beginning, guys look to fly against those they think they can beat. Eventually, however, they see they have to try to fly against those they must beat. The strategy gets exciting at times. This format has proven so popular that we are doing it eight or nine of the twelve contests per year. We usually attract 10 to 15 flyers per month. Of these, more than half are in their 60's and 70's and are quite competitive. The contests move along quite quickly and are easy to run and score. An eight round contest with 12 flyers takes about three hours. There isn't much sitting and visiting going on. If you are ever in the Dallas/ Ft Worth area on the third Sunday of the month come on out and join us. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Adjustable tow hooks
I got mine from Barry Kennedy @ Kennedy Composites www.kennedycomposites.com Tim - Original Message - From: Rick Van Clief [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 5:27 PM Subject: [RCSE] Adjustable tow hooks Not too long ago someone had a note with an attached picture of an adjustable tow hook. It had two plates, one fixed and the other with tow hook attached to it slid back and forth on the first. Both plates had what looked like matching serrations on them which apparently allow slight incremental adjustments. Can someone point me to the supplier for this please? I tried the archive but it doesn't seem to be working particularly well at present, at least for me. Thanks. RVC RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
- Original Message - From: Michael Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. The correct way to limit launches is on the motor side, not on the line side. Broken lines just slow down contests and make everyone unhappy. I agree with Michael. The motor side is the place to limit pull on the winch line, if that is what is desired. There is a simple technique that I have heard has been tried with some success in the past. It involves mounting the winch on a spring loaded pivoting device that electrically limits the force on the line. A microswitch interrupts the circuit between the foot switch and solenoid when the pull on the winch line moves the winch on the pivot against the pull of the spring (the weight of the winch itself is also involved). This cuts power to the winch motor until the line tension lightens enough to allow the spring to pull the winch off of the switch. The spring is adjusted against the pull on the line using a simple spring scale such as is used to set up highstarts to set the trip point. If you just stand on the pedal, the result is a near constant force pulsing of the winch line throughout the launch. Actually the pull slightly declines as the diameter of the stack of line on the drum increases with line taken in. This scheme works without breaking of the line or releasing the model early. This is 1920's technology, but effective. A more expensive technique using strain gauges and electronic motor speed controls could be devised. 8^) I am sure that with proper launch technique, towering launches can still be achieved with such a system set at 80 pounds pull launching 4 pound models. I suspect that experimentation will show that 20 to 30 pounds will be more than adequate. Tim RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] XC story
Great thread, guys. Thanks for sharing. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
- Original Message - From: John Erickson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: John Linda [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. The precision part is easy, especially if it doesn't matter where you land (assuming you're inside the field boundaries). I think that if you polled all pilots and they listed tasks in order of difficulty it would come out like this: 1) Making a 100 point landing 2) Making your time 3) Landing on the right time Why de emphasize the skill that is the hardest to do? The way it has been set up for years still has the landing as only worth 10% of the scoring (at maximum) and in many contests only 5%. I think it is a fair allocation of emphasis. We have a game, we have rules, and the guys that are always at the top are the best ones at playing the game. They're not complaining about how it is set up, they're practicing as it is set up. When Russ Young won Visalia he had shot something like 200 landings over the few weeks prior to the contest. He worked on his skills, which is how I see everyone make the biggest strides in improving. If you are not into competition this entire conversation is moot, but since we are talking about our current format, I thought I'd chime in. JE -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA John, Your comments miss the point, in my opinion. My post addresses the issue of how to adjust the emphasis of our sailplane contests toward flying rather than landing. Your response says Why de-emphasize the skill that is the hardest to do? Thermalling inverted is even harder, why not emphasize that? How about flying blindfolded? Yes, we have a game and it has rules, but is there a better game? Can we get there with a simple change to one of the rules? Is it your argument that what we are doing now cannot be improved? In my proposal to use the landing points for tie breakers only, pilots will not ignore the landing target. As I stated, A perfect flight with a 100 point landing wins every time... Competitors will be trying for the spot every flight or risk losing. I assure you that in any significant contest there will be flyers making their times and their landings. Others will not be competitive by landing anywhere else on the field. The fact that, as you so clearly state, recognizing the key skills needed for an upcoming event, someone practices those skills and wins, does not respond to the question of whether those should be the key skills. It merely proves that those are the key skills. Why should a soaring contest be based on skill in archery? Practicing archery will help one win such a contest, but why should we do that? The fact that this is what we currently do does not justify it. Could there actually be a better idea? Your comment about the traditional weighting of landing points ignores the AMA rules for Triathlon (20% max for landing) and T3 Precision Duration (12.5% max for landing). Also, it has been my experience that many regional contests (including the one I attended 9/18-19 in Tulsa, OK) weigh the landing at 100 points of 1000 or 11%. On a six minute task, which was part of that event, that represents 39.6 seconds. On a ten minute task, also part of that event, that represents 66 seconds. Note that the longer the task the more time can be made up with landing points, regardless of what weight is applied to the landing. Increasing the length of the task does not necessarily de-emphasize the landing. A flight with a 75 point landing and a 10:00 time (1075) loses to one with a 100 point landing and a time of 9:46 (1076). Which pilot flew better? Did a pilot who missed the time by more than a minute fly better than one who made the time, but flipped over due to a gust in the landing circle? I don't think so. So how do we make the contest format reflect that? If all pilots fly perfectly, or nearly so, these issues do not apply, but we hope to attract more than just those pilots to our events and offer them a basis on which to compete as well. If we do not, does our sport have a future? What I propose is not a huge change. I think it deserves consideration and should be argued based on its merits. Those that will resist change, will resist change regardless of any merits. Those seeking better solutions will address the issues. Which are you? Tim Bennett RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Daryl, Thanks for your comments. You make an interesting, but rather obscure point. There is clearly an issue of timing accuracy that needs to be addressed under the current format. My expectation would be that flying several rounds will resolve the discrepency you describe with more dependance on flying the time task consistently than any reliance on landing scores will provide. Do you really expect that there would be such a discrepancy after 7 or 10 rounds of flying? I also think it needs to be stated that there are more participants in any worthwhile contest than those consistently posting times within 1/2 second of the target flight after flight. Whatever scoring scheme is used should provide them with a fair way to measure their own performance against other similar flyers as well as to serve the elite competitors such as yourself. To the extent that your scenario is relevent, the real question then becomes: Is the landing task the right way to resolve such discrepencies? Also, isn't the real issue you raise scoring beyond the resolution of the timing technology? Tim - Original Message - From: Daryl Perkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED]; John Erickson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. Gotta be careful here guys. When trying to de-emphasize landings, we usually make some other aspect of the task hyper-critical. John, you're right on the money. Tim, doesn't sound like you're a contest flyer. Guys who fly to 9:46's don't win contests where I'm from. Tim, in your scenario let's assume rounding: A 9:59.49 100 point landing loses to a 9:59.50 0 point landing. Is this fair? You've overemphasized the timer, his thumb, his ability to stop the clock right as the plane touches the ground, etc I remember a contest up in No Cal. It was a huge in or out landing. I hit the ground exactly as my timer said 0. Unfortunately, he wasn't looking at his watch as he counted down, and I was off time. Another contest in Riverside. It was a 2 day. Same deal, they tried to de-emphasize the landing. The spots were super small, and the best you could do was a 5 point landing bonus. The hit for time was more than 5 points per second. I decided to never even try for a landing. I won that w/e without ever getting a landing. Or trying to. Our contest formats have evolved I think to be a relatively fair way of judging our soaring/energy management skills. The only problem is we haven't lengthened the tasks to keep up with the increased performance of our models. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
