Re: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly
I fly indoors with a couple of really hot heli guys. Guess what, the best of them and I think he is really good tells me there maybe a tad difference but he is not really sure, at any rate it will not matter for a newbe heli guy like me. BTW, really good to me is rolling circles one foot off of the tarmac and rolling flips at the same height. Scary!!! Jack On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 9:14 PM, TG Bean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The lag argument is well...goofy. I have heard the Heli guys say they notice a difference, which actually makes some sense. The Heli is far more susceptible to lag than perhaps any other radio controlled device. I have also heard the IMAC guys say they notice a difference. Maybe they do...but I kinda doubt it. We dial in Expo to reduce the stick glitch, yet we are told that response is a bigger deal than perhaps it is. Like I saidgoofy. -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 17:32:34 -0500 Subject: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly To: Soaring@airage.com *These two reasons are why I like the 2.4 system. And I will add one other, the response really is better. For the first time in my flying the plane is doing what I want when I want it, I don't have to compensate by anticipating the lag.* ** ** Okay I was waiting for this one. With a standard FM system, not even a PCM System (which by the way is about the same as a 2.4 system...the word 'digital' is sort of a hint there)...with a standard FM system the time between a guy moving his thumb and the servo beginning its movement is not visible to they eye...as it looks immediate. However the indication above implies that the delay in the information getting to the servos from the stick is with none digital TX systems, would cause some sort of delay in the now pay attentionthe movement of the airframe. Movement of the airframe is not 'only' a function of servo moving servos. AIRSPEED is a bigger factor and one that varies the lag in response way more than any micro second change in the information time from thumb to servo. The next factor is servo speed 'while under their normal surface duties'. A far cheaper way to increase 'response' would have been to get digital servos. Lets not add fluff to an the benefits of a system which in the end is just another way to control models. And in the end the question to the above gleeful reason to own a digital systemhow many contests will that faster response time help you win this seasonmight be interesting to track compared to last season. Likely any wins won't be due to improved flying skills, it will have to be the result of that signal lag which caused slower responses of your sailplane ;-). Freedom is the big reason. Freedom to turn on anywhere, the park, that empty lot, the space next to a factorya park. Gordy pretty quick response, hey? -- It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money Finance.http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301 -- Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now!http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 -- Jack Iafret Home and Hobbies
Re: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly
On Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 05:32:34PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: |Okay I was waiting for this one. With a standard FM system, not even a |PCM System (which by the way is about the same as a 2.4 system...the |word 'digital' is sort of a hint there)...with a standard FM system the |time between a guy moving his thumb and the servo beginning its |movement is not visible to they eye...as it looks immediate. People have measured it under pretty controlled conditions and found the DX7 to be faster than most 72 MHz transmitters -- especially faster than the Futaba 9C in PCM mode doing CCPM (helicopter.) However, even in the slowest case (9C, PCM, CCPM) it's still way faster than your reflexes. So while the DX7 might be 3x faster, it still doesn't matter because you can barely tell if at all. So, yes, the Spektrum stuff is faster, but in general I'd say it doesn't matter. But of course many people disasgree, and they disagree quite loudly. References: http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t172571p1/ (Note that they're looking at CCPM, so this is a worst-case scenario that shows the 9C to be slow. With airplane modes, the difference is much smaller.) |Movement of the airframe is not 'only' a function of servo moving |servos. AIRSPEED is a bigger factor and one that varies the lag in |response way more than any micro second change in the information time |from thumb to servo. Agreed. Though to be fair, I suspect that most people who claim that radio X is faster than radio Y are also aware of this. -- Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only two things that are infinite in size are the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not completely sure about the universe. -- Albert Einstein RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting ...
I understand that some of you will have skepticism in regard to the increase in performance from the 2.4 Spread Spektrum Systems. The first time that I flew a my 9303X 2.4 system in a glider I got the feeling I was better connected to the glider. I did some high speed dives and pulled the elevator in a pylon turn. I definitely could sense a faster response. Remember this effect is amplified because I fly a pretty aft CG. In November I was doing some Helicopter prep for a movie, and installed the 9303X and with 921RX in a previously flown machine. This particular Heli features a 3 servo CCPM mixing system to steer the head. In this case there was no doubt about the improvement in response and lack of slop in the system. I got the feeling that I was really hooked up, kind of like flying with tight strings instead of loose ones. So, I know there is an improvement available with the SS 2.4 systems. But too be honest with you, I would be more intrigued with 2.4 because of the lack of frequency conflicts, and great range of equipment available from Horizon. I know some of you will not try 2.4 for any number of reasons. But I can list several friends who have tried it, seen the advantage and now are switching entire fleets over to Spread Spektrum 2.4 systems. All my best Larry **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301)
RE: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting ...
I would expect a heli guy to be able to tell a difference. But to be honest, I think it all boils down to a quote from one of my favorite movies...Bull Durham. Crash Davis If you believe you're flying well because you're getting laid, or because you're not getting laid, or because you wear women's underwear, or breathing out of your eyelids, or using a 2.4 Spektrum Radio, then you ARE! And you should know that! [long pause] So in the end it's whatever you like. I believe that everyone believes what they are saying, they are all right. Tom (Flying 72 MEG because I can't tell a difference and when everyone else has left I will be all alone with my stock 9303.) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 15:46:32 -0500Subject: Re: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting ...To: Soaring@airage.com I understand that some of you will have skepticism in regard to the increase in performance from the 2.4 Spread Spektrum Systems. The first time that I flew a my 9303X 2.4 system in a glider I got the feeling I was better connected to the glider. I did some high speed dives and pulled the elevator in a pylon turn. I definitely could sense a faster response. Remember this effect is amplified because I fly a pretty aft CG. In November I was doing some Helicopter prep for a movie, and installed the 9303X and with 921RX in a previously flown machine. This particular Heli features a 3 servo CCPM mixing system to steer the head. In this case there was no doubt about the improvement in response and lack of slop in the system. I got the feeling that I was really hooked up, kind of like flying with tight strings instead of loose ones. So, I know there is an improvement available with the SS 2.4 systems. But too be honest with you, I would be more intrigued with 2.4 because of the lack of frequency conflicts, and great range of equipment available from Horizon. I know some of you will not try 2.4 for any number of reasons. But I can list several friends who have tried it, seen the advantage and now are switching entire fleets over to Spread Spektrum 2.4 systems. All my best Larry It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money Finance. _ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/
Re: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting ...
The increase in responce is comparable to using fast servos. I can without a doubt tell the difference. I fly planes with fast servos and rearward C.G.s I also fly planes fast as well as slow. But you do have to realize that ths latency is before the servo. So whether the servo is fast or slow, or the plane is fast or slow, the latency is added on. It counts. 72 MHz is good. a 368 servo on your elevator is good. But a 3421 is faster, and you can tell. So you can tell with moving from 72 to 2.4. But like everyone else said, it isn't a big enough reason in itself to pay good money to move to 2.4. It is however another very valid reason 2.4 is better than 72. So for now, most of my planes are still 72, but a few are 2.4. I like 2.4better, eventually all of my planes will be 2.4 On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:01 PM, TG Bean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would expect a heli guy to be able to tell a difference. But to be honest, I think it all boils down to a quote from one of my favorite movies...Bull Durham. Crash Davis If you believe you're flying well because you're getting laid, or because you're not getting laid, or because you wear women's underwear, or breathing out of your eyelids, or using a 2.4 Spektrum Radio, then you ARE! And you should know that! [*long pause*] So in the end it's whatever you like. I believe that everyone believes what they are saying, they are all right. Tom (Flying 72 MEG because I can't tell a difference and when everyone else has left I will be all alone with my stock 9303.) -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 15:46:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting ... To: Soaring@airage.com I understand that some of you will have skepticism in regard to the increase in performance from the 2.4 Spread Spektrum Systems. The first time that I flew a my 9303X 2.4 system in a glider I got the feeling I was better connected to the glider. I did some high speed dives and pulled the elevator in a pylon turn. I definitely could sense a faster response. Remember this effect is amplified because I fly a pretty aft CG. In November I was doing some Helicopter prep for a movie, and installed the 9303X and with 921RX in a previously flown machine. This particular Heli features a 3 servo CCPM mixing system to steer the head. In this case there was no doubt about the improvement in response and lack of slop in the system. I got the feeling that I was really hooked up, kind of like flying with tight strings instead of loose ones. So, I know there is an improvement available with the SS 2.4 systems. But too be honest with you, I would be more intrigued with 2.4 because of the lack of frequency conflicts, and great range of equipment available from Horizon. I know some of you will not try 2.4 for any number of reasons. But I can list several friends who have tried it, seen the advantage and now are switching entire fleets over to Spread Spektrum 2.4 systems. All my best Larry -- It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money Finance.http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301 -- Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn more.http://biggestloser.msn.com/ -- David Klein Graduate Research Student Department of Structural Engineering Jacobs School of Engineering University of California San Diego
Re: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly
You guys can feel the difference from faster servos, servos with higher resolution, see or sense the slightest bubble in lift, detect the slightest change in the air, feel the air temp changes yet the fact that spektrum is measurably faster is somehow lost on human senses? On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Doug McLaren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 05:32:34PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: |Okay I was waiting for this one. With a standard FM system, not even a |PCM System (which by the way is about the same as a 2.4 system...the |word 'digital' is sort of a hint there)...with a standard FM system the |time between a guy moving his thumb and the servo beginning its |movement is not visible to they eye...as it looks immediate. People have measured it under pretty controlled conditions and found the DX7 to be faster than most 72 MHz transmitters -- especially faster than the Futaba 9C in PCM mode doing CCPM (helicopter.) However, even in the slowest case (9C, PCM, CCPM) it's still way faster than your reflexes. So while the DX7 might be 3x faster, it still doesn't matter because you can barely tell if at all. So, yes, the Spektrum stuff is faster, but in general I'd say it doesn't matter. But of course many people disasgree, and they disagree quite loudly. References: http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t172571p1/ (Note that they're looking at CCPM, so this is a worst-case scenario that shows the 9C to be slow. With airplane modes, the difference is much smaller.) |Movement of the airframe is not 'only' a function of servo moving |servos. AIRSPEED is a bigger factor and one that varies the lag in |response way more than any micro second change in the information time |from thumb to servo. Agreed. Though to be fair, I suspect that most people who claim that radio X is faster than radio Y are also aware of this. -- Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only two things that are infinite in size are the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not completely sure about the universe. -- Albert Einstein RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly
These two reasons are why I like the 2.4 system. And I will add one other, the response really is better. For the first time in my flying the plane is doing what I want when I want it, I don't have to compensate by anticipating the lag. Okay I was waiting for this one. With a standard FM system, not even a PCM System (which by the way is about the same as a 2.4 system...the word 'digital' is sort of a hint there)...with a standard FM system the time between a guy moving his thumb and the servo beginning its movement is not visible to they eye...as it looks immediate. However the indication above implies that the delay in the information getting to the servos from the stick is with none digital TX systems, would cause some sort of delay in the now pay attentionthe movement of the airframe. Movement of the airframe is not 'only' a function of servo moving servos. AIRSPEED is a bigger factor and one that varies the lag in response way more than any micro second change in the information time from thumb to servo. The next factor is servo speed 'while under their normal surface duties'. A far cheaper way to increase 'response' would have been to get digital servos. Lets not add fluff to an the benefits of a system which in the end is just another way to control models. And in the end the question to the above gleeful reason to own a digital systemhow many contests will that faster response time help you win this seasonmight be interesting to track compared to last season. Likely any wins won't be due to improved flying skills, it will have to be the result of that signal lag which caused slower responses of your sailplane ;-). Freedom is the big reason. Freedom to turn on anywhere, the park, that empty lot, the space next to a factorya park. Gordy pretty quick response, hey? **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301)
Re: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly
A far cheaper way to increase 'response' would have been to get digital servos. and a 5-cell RX battery pack. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly
Or 2 A123 in series ;) hehehe -Original Message- From: Jon Stone [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:46 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly A far cheaper way to increase 'response' would have been to get digital servos. and a 5-cell RX battery pack. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.6/1315 - Release Date: 3/6/2008 9:07 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.6/1315 - Release Date: 3/6/2008 9:07 AM RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly
The lag argument is well...goofy. I have heard the Heli guys say they notice a difference, which actually makes some sense. The Heli is far more susceptible to lag than perhaps any other radio controlled device. I have also heard the IMAC guys say they notice a difference. Maybe they do...but I kinda doubt it. We dial in Expo to reduce the stick glitch, yet we are told that response is a bigger deal than perhaps it is. Like I saidgoofy. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 17:32:34 -0500Subject: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly To: Soaring@airage.com These two reasons are why I like the 2.4 system. And I will add one other, the response really is better. For the first time in my flying the plane is doing what I want when I want it, I don't have to compensate by anticipating the lag. Okay I was waiting for this one. With a standard FM system, not even a PCM System (which by the way is about the same as a 2.4 system...the word 'digital' is sort of a hint there)...with a standard FM system the time between a guy moving his thumb and the servo beginning its movement is not visible to they eye...as it looks immediate. However the indication above implies that the delay in the information getting to the servos from the stick is with none digital TX systems, would cause some sort of delay in the now pay attentionthe movement of the airframe. Movement of the airframe is not 'only' a function of servo moving servos. AIRSPEED is a bigger factor and one that varies the lag in response way more than any micro second change in the information time from thumb to servo. The next factor is servo speed 'while under their normal surface duties'. A far cheaper way to increase 'response' would have been to get digital servos. Lets not add fluff to an the benefits of a system which in the end is just another way to control models. And in the end the question to the above gleeful reason to own a digital systemhow many contests will that faster response time help you win this seasonmight be interesting to track compared to last season. Likely any wins won't be due to improved flying skills, it will have to be the result of that signal lag which caused slower responses of your sailplane ;-). Freedom is the big reason. Freedom to turn on anywhere, the park, that empty lot, the space next to a factorya park. Gordypretty quick response, hey? It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money Finance. _ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
Re: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly
I will add this and leave it alone. My flying went from constant correcting of over correcting to having the plane respond the way I wanted it. And nothing, not practice, faster servos, expo, dual rates, speed, etc... improved the 'smoothness' of my flying like the spektrum. If you guys don't feel it that's fine, but the same guys that were questioning the viability of 2.4 in carbon fused sailplanes are now touting its merits. I guess someone like Joe Wurts would have to admit there is a difference for some of you guys to know that it really is a better response. On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 5:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *These two reasons are why I like the 2.4 system. And I will add one other, the response really is better. For the first time in my flying the plane is doing what I want when I want it, I don't have to compensate by anticipating the lag.* ** ** Okay I was waiting for this one. With a standard FM system, not even a PCM System (which by the way is about the same as a 2.4 system...the word 'digital' is sort of a hint there)...with a standard FM system the time between a guy moving his thumb and the servo beginning its movement is not visible to they eye...as it looks immediate. However the indication above implies that the delay in the information getting to the servos from the stick is with none digital TX systems, would cause some sort of delay in the now pay attentionthe movement of the airframe. Movement of the airframe is not 'only' a function of servo moving servos. AIRSPEED is a bigger factor and one that varies the lag in response way more than any micro second change in the information time from thumb to servo. The next factor is servo speed 'while under their normal surface duties'. A far cheaper way to increase 'response' would have been to get digital servos. Lets not add fluff to an the benefits of a system which in the end is just another way to control models. And in the end the question to the above gleeful reason to own a digital systemhow many contests will that faster response time help you win this seasonmight be interesting to track compared to last season. Likely any wins won't be due to improved flying skills, it will have to be the result of that signal lag which caused slower responses of your sailplane ;-). Freedom is the big reason. Freedom to turn on anywhere, the park, that empty lot, the space next to a factorya park. Gordy pretty quick response, hey? -- It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money Finance.http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301
Re: [RCSE] What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting ...
Yes!!! The first time I put it in my Marauder Woody, I got 5 hours out of the 8 I was looking for! Not sure what I would have gotten with 72mhz...and a little more slope wind. Gordy :-) In a message dated 3/7/2008 12:47:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of the various bits of information that came out when I first read about 2.4 was a supposed increase in flying time. Purportedly this was due to a more efficient transmission versus 72mHz. Is anyone experiencing longer flight times between transmitter charges with their 2.4gHz system? **It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf000301)
