Re: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models
Maybe I need to eat a larger breakfast but I just thought about this idea... OK, what about a combination of power limit and timing. I was thinking about exactly how I broke line this last season (a total of three times) and its always the same. I used too much pedal for my model setup within the first 2-3 seconds. After I altered my setup by simply tapping up the plane until it it was at reasonable alt I could go for an aggressive zoom. My launches were just as good as a full pedal approach. What about a modulated power for the first 3 seconds of the launch? If we can limit the overall power why can't we limit it at the most likely point in the launch to cause a line break IMO the first 3 seconds)? Once the plane has attained decent altitude and more line is out, dispersing the load the power can let loose and go to 100%. too much thought maybe ... would that work? You could still use lighter line, everyone is happy and its a level solution for everyone. On Dec 21, 2007 4:23 AM, Marc Gellart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I guess John, why sould there be a deduct if I still make my time with a > lower launch cause the WL gave? > > WL's seem like a great idea, but have proved over time to not really work, I > would rather see us go to 200 pound line. > > marc > > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and > "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and > unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. > Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in > text format > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models
Mark, I have no problem with any means selected to stop the killer winch-pull escalation. You have been in this game a long time and I respect your opinion on WL's, (even though I'm not sure what makes it "not really work"). I do feel that this RCSE thread is all just talk and next build season this topic will again elicit heavy traffic on RCSE without any changes. The only way I can see that changes will happen and that the changes will stick, are the organizers of OVSS and Soaring Masters leading by example. If the rules/line-size on OVSS and Soaring Masters change I think it could have and effect on the Nats and the rest of the US John. -Original Message- From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 7:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Soaring Exchange Subject: Re: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models I guess John, why sould there be a deduct if I still make my time with a lower launch cause the WL gave? WL's seem like a great idea, but have proved over time to not really work, I would rather see us go to 200 pound line. marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models
I guess John, why sould there be a deduct if I still make my time with a lower launch cause the WL gave? WL's seem like a great idea, but have proved over time to not really work, I would rather see us go to 200 pound line. marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models
Named the... "Cougar" ;-) At 03:12 PM 12/20/2007, Daryl Perkins wrote: I'm always going to fly large wingspan models at an UNLIMITED thermal duration contest. I like the way they perform. Period. Sorry, but my newest model is 3.9M or 153.5". It wasn't designed for F3J. It was designed for US style UNLIMITED thermal duration. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models
I think the line, pun intended, has been drawn and the lower power winch may be the direction to go. After having had FLS and Bosch powered winches, resistor equiped, in recent years that used both Memphis Twine braided line on them, I have to agree with DP, RB and MS that lower powered winches are the way to go. This will have the added benefit of backing away from the near 300 lb test line to somthing more reasonable, say around 220 to 240 lb test line that results in some line stretch for a less abrupt pull on the initial release at launch. I think we have gotten to point with the 300 lb test, no stretch line, will most likely intimidate the less experienced or begining pilot and that we don't need in this day of declining contest attendance. Regards, Dave Corven. -- Original message -- From: Daryl Perkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Weak links? > > How do you know as a competitor how much line tension you're pulling at > any given time? So you're suggesting penalizing a competitor who has his > model properly set up, pops a thermal on tow, gets windgusted... etc > > > The problem with the "you break it, you fly it" mentality isWe are > not breaking the lines at anywhere near their rated breaking strength. > What's going on is, lines are being abused, worn, and damaged over > normal usage. This is going on at different rates at every winch. You > are then penalizing a competitor for having weaker line than the next > guy. I broke the line at my last Nats a couple of times while tapping. I > didn't have monster tension, and was not in any way abusing the > equipment. I was told by organizers to bring it down and relight. I also > personally witnessed competitors at the first Masters intentionally > breaking lines for the opportunity to relight at the end of the group. > > Line breaks will always be a part of any contest. The way to completely > eliminate it as a problem, is to switch to FAI type rules and winches, > and make the competitor responsible for his own launch equipment. In the > absence of that, (and that may never happen here in the states) we need > to make it much harder to break the lines. That means less power. > > There it is - the Supra solution. > > Mike - Insanity and Sharon are identical in span... for some reason. > > > > Darylperkins.com LLC. > 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B > Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 > > www.darylperkins.com > > > > > > > > > > Original Message > > Subject: RE: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models > > From: "Gospodarek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Thu, December 20, 2007 4:35 pm > > To: "Soaring" , "Daryl Perkins" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I like the idea of a weak-link. > > If you want a level strength playing field for launches and don't want to > > remove the winch tap skill or add new equipment just try this. Make up short > > weak-link loops (ahead of the first contest make 50 for the year) to attach > > between the line and the ring. If you use 250# winch line, use 200# weak > > links. If the line breaks you get a re-launch. If the CD sees that the > > weak-link is what is broken, then the pilot is docked a % (CD option say > > 15%) of the flight time. Simple but effective! I'm sure that you would not > > have many re-launches. > > John > > -Original Message- > > From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:12 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Cc: Soaring@airage.com > > Subject: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models > > Mike Smith pretty much hit the nail on the head. The problem isn't the > > line. The problem isn't the size of the model. Our TD style winches are > > unnecessarily strong. I'd love to see the winches restricted at major > > contests. > > I'm always going to fly large wingspan models at an UNLIMITED thermal > > duration contest. I like the way they perform. Period. Sorry, but my > > newest model is 3.9M or 153.5". It wasn't designed for F3J. It was > > designed for US style UNLIMITED thermal duration. > > I often hear CD's complain about guys launching hard. I understand your > > need to keep the contest moving. But blaming the competitor for being > > competitive U... it's a CONTEST!!! We're competing. You can't > > expect a competitor to back off on his competitive spirit. He needs to > > be allowed to do whatever he feels he needs to do to gain a competitive > > advantage. > >
RE: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models
"How do you know as a competitor how much line tension you're pulling at any given time?" I've seen you fly, Daryl. I think you and many of the top contenders are a quick studies and would learn very fast. John -Original Message- From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Soaring Subject: RE: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models Weak links? How do you know as a competitor how much line tension you're pulling at any given time? So you're suggesting penalizing a competitor who has his model properly set up, pops a thermal on tow, gets windgusted... etc The problem with the "you break it, you fly it" mentality isWe are not breaking the lines at anywhere near their rated breaking strength. What's going on is, lines are being abused, worn, and damaged over normal usage. This is going on at different rates at every winch. You are then penalizing a competitor for having weaker line than the next guy. I broke the line at my last Nats a couple of times while tapping. I didn't have monster tension, and was not in any way abusing the equipment. I was told by organizers to bring it down and relight. I also personally witnessed competitors at the first Masters intentionally breaking lines for the opportunity to relight at the end of the group. Line breaks will always be a part of any contest. The way to completely eliminate it as a problem, is to switch to FAI type rules and winches, and make the competitor responsible for his own launch equipment. In the absence of that, (and that may never happen here in the states) we need to make it much harder to break the lines. That means less power. There it is - the Supra solution. Mike - Insanity and Sharon are identical in span... for some reason. Darylperkins.com LLC. 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 www.darylperkins.com > ---- Original Message ---- > Subject: RE: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models > From: "Gospodarek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Thu, December 20, 2007 4:35 pm > To: "Soaring" , "Daryl Perkins" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I like the idea of a weak-link. > If you want a level strength playing field for launches and don't want to > remove the winch tap skill or add new equipment just try this. Make up short > weak-link loops (ahead of the first contest make 50 for the year) to attach > between the line and the ring. If you use 250# winch line, use 200# weak > links. If the line breaks you get a re-launch. If the CD sees that the > weak-link is what is broken, then the pilot is docked a % (CD option say > 15%) of the flight time. Simple but effective! I'm sure that you would not > have many re-launches. > John > -Original Message- > From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:12 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: Soaring@airage.com > Subject: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models > Mike Smith pretty much hit the nail on the head. The problem isn't the > line. The problem isn't the size of the model. Our TD style winches are > unnecessarily strong. I'd love to see the winches restricted at major > contests. > I'm always going to fly large wingspan models at an UNLIMITED thermal > duration contest. I like the way they perform. Period. Sorry, but my > newest model is 3.9M or 153.5". It wasn't designed for F3J. It was > designed for US style UNLIMITED thermal duration. > I often hear CD's complain about guys launching hard. I understand your > need to keep the contest moving. But blaming the competitor for being > competitive U... it's a CONTEST!!! We're competing. You can't > expect a competitor to back off on his competitive spirit. He needs to > be allowed to do whatever he feels he needs to do to gain a competitive > advantage. > Using the line as the "weak link" is not only unfair, it's dangerous. > Limiting winch power is a great way to guarantee winch equality across > the board. Visalia's winches are unbelievably weak, and they have very > few line breaks. SWC winches are usually pretty strong, but are > inconsistent from one winch to the next, and change over the course of > the day. The NATS has the strongest winches I've ever used, and they use > rope line to keep things going. I know... the darn things ruined a > perfectly good Insanity. > Don't limit the models. Don't limit the line size or perceived breaking > strength. Limit the available winch power, and you'll begin to see > models optimized for that available power. > Darylperkins.com LLC. > 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B > Lake Havasu City, AZ
RE: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models
Weak links? How do you know as a competitor how much line tension you're pulling at any given time? So you're suggesting penalizing a competitor who has his model properly set up, pops a thermal on tow, gets windgusted... etc The problem with the "you break it, you fly it" mentality isWe are not breaking the lines at anywhere near their rated breaking strength. What's going on is, lines are being abused, worn, and damaged over normal usage. This is going on at different rates at every winch. You are then penalizing a competitor for having weaker line than the next guy. I broke the line at my last Nats a couple of times while tapping. I didn't have monster tension, and was not in any way abusing the equipment. I was told by organizers to bring it down and relight. I also personally witnessed competitors at the first Masters intentionally breaking lines for the opportunity to relight at the end of the group. Line breaks will always be a part of any contest. The way to completely eliminate it as a problem, is to switch to FAI type rules and winches, and make the competitor responsible for his own launch equipment. In the absence of that, (and that may never happen here in the states) we need to make it much harder to break the lines. That means less power. There it is - the Supra solution. Mike - Insanity and Sharon are identical in span... for some reason. Darylperkins.com LLC. 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 www.darylperkins.com > Original Message > Subject: RE: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models > From: "Gospodarek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Thu, December 20, 2007 4:35 pm > To: "Soaring" , "Daryl Perkins" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I like the idea of a weak-link. > If you want a level strength playing field for launches and don't want to > remove the winch tap skill or add new equipment just try this. Make up short > weak-link loops (ahead of the first contest make 50 for the year) to attach > between the line and the ring. If you use 250# winch line, use 200# weak > links. If the line breaks you get a re-launch. If the CD sees that the > weak-link is what is broken, then the pilot is docked a % (CD option say > 15%) of the flight time. Simple but effective! I'm sure that you would not > have many re-launches. > John > -Original Message- > From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:12 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: Soaring@airage.com > Subject: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models > Mike Smith pretty much hit the nail on the head. The problem isn't the > line. The problem isn't the size of the model. Our TD style winches are > unnecessarily strong. I'd love to see the winches restricted at major > contests. > I'm always going to fly large wingspan models at an UNLIMITED thermal > duration contest. I like the way they perform. Period. Sorry, but my > newest model is 3.9M or 153.5". It wasn't designed for F3J. It was > designed for US style UNLIMITED thermal duration. > I often hear CD's complain about guys launching hard. I understand your > need to keep the contest moving. But blaming the competitor for being > competitive U... it's a CONTEST!!! We're competing. You can't > expect a competitor to back off on his competitive spirit. He needs to > be allowed to do whatever he feels he needs to do to gain a competitive > advantage. > Using the line as the "weak link" is not only unfair, it's dangerous. > Limiting winch power is a great way to guarantee winch equality across > the board. Visalia's winches are unbelievably weak, and they have very > few line breaks. SWC winches are usually pretty strong, but are > inconsistent from one winch to the next, and change over the course of > the day. The NATS has the strongest winches I've ever used, and they use > rope line to keep things going. I know... the darn things ruined a > perfectly good Insanity. > Don't limit the models. Don't limit the line size or perceived breaking > strength. Limit the available winch power, and you'll begin to see > models optimized for that available power. > Darylperkins.com LLC. > 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B > Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 > www.darylperkins.com > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and > "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and > unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. > Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in > text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models
I like the idea of a weak-link. If you want a level strength playing field for launches and don't want to remove the winch tap skill or add new equipment just try this. Make up short weak-link loops (ahead of the first contest make 50 for the year) to attach between the line and the ring. If you use 250# winch line, use 200# weak links. If the line breaks you get a re-launch. If the CD sees that the weak-link is what is broken, then the pilot is docked a % (CD option say 15%) of the flight time. Simple but effective! I'm sure that you would not have many re-launches. John -Original Message- From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] re:contest launch equipment vs large models Mike Smith pretty much hit the nail on the head. The problem isn't the line. The problem isn't the size of the model. Our TD style winches are unnecessarily strong. I'd love to see the winches restricted at major contests. I'm always going to fly large wingspan models at an UNLIMITED thermal duration contest. I like the way they perform. Period. Sorry, but my newest model is 3.9M or 153.5". It wasn't designed for F3J. It was designed for US style UNLIMITED thermal duration. I often hear CD's complain about guys launching hard. I understand your need to keep the contest moving. But blaming the competitor for being competitive U... it's a CONTEST!!! We're competing. You can't expect a competitor to back off on his competitive spirit. He needs to be allowed to do whatever he feels he needs to do to gain a competitive advantage. Using the line as the "weak link" is not only unfair, it's dangerous. Limiting winch power is a great way to guarantee winch equality across the board. Visalia's winches are unbelievably weak, and they have very few line breaks. SWC winches are usually pretty strong, but are inconsistent from one winch to the next, and change over the course of the day. The NATS has the strongest winches I've ever used, and they use rope line to keep things going. I know... the darn things ruined a perfectly good Insanity. Don't limit the models. Don't limit the line size or perceived breaking strength. Limit the available winch power, and you'll begin to see models optimized for that available power. Darylperkins.com LLC. 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 www.darylperkins.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
