Re: Friday Flashback #238
Hm - me getting it wrong is certainly a possibility. But when I'm picking my memory about this, little bits and pieces seem to bubble up. There was this studio owner who had a DS, and he came by all excited, asking me for a softimage 3D scene and corresponding render for testing. I was surprised since they didn’t do 3D at their studio - he explained it was for testing on the DS and I didn’t quite get what they were trying to do. The 'clip on the timeline, done with softimage 3D' (under the hood) sure sounds like what I have in mind. It surely wasn’t a 3D import, I don’t recall seeing any wireframe - just entering the path to the 3D scene and probably just horizontal and vertical transform parameters. Probably the texture scaled at SD video resolution was the source layer for the clip. I'm not sure on version - but it was '98 or '99, certainly before v4 , and quite possibly not a public release. I recall having a discussion about what sense it made to do a correction on a system that was billed 4 times more than a 3D station. If you had a correction, just send it to the people who made the 3D. In any case, what were the odds of having a client requesting a correction on shifting a texture a bit left or right on the 3D model, that was already rendered and delivered? It would be a miracle for that one to come up I thought. I remember looking for buckets vs scanlines being rendered to confirm that it was mental ray which didn’t do scanline to my knowledge - and remember that it seemed very slow. I did 3D on sgi/irix and DS being on win/intergraph, I expected rendering to be very fast on a PC. I was constantly asking my studio to get me one. Sounds like it might have happened - you tell me? -Original Message- From: Luc-Eric Rousseau Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 3:21 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Friday Flashback #238 I remember opening a softimage 3D asset in the DS timeline, and changing the texture placement on it, and having it re-render, right there in the editing timeline, with mental ray - 15 years ago. It wasn’t all that useful, but it hinted of some very exciting future links between 3D and editing/comp. Did you dream it? DS never really had that, they always dreamed of having mental ray or importing 3D scenes. In 1997 there was a pre-Sumatra demo shown around where you could create a 3D clip on the timeline and paint on it, that was built using Softimage|3D. It never passed the prototype stage. At one point a colleague put the dotXSI viewer as a plugin in DS and that was a demo which AFAIK never shipped. You could do basic 3D with the built-in Marquee tool in DS - a product Avid acquired - that's it. All of these were OpenGL only. That said, you were able to import Softimage|3D scenes in Eddie and render them in there. But then Avid drove a wedge between DS and XSI, Avid wasn't smart enough to scheme like that and AFAIK didn't do any such thing. Early on, we couldn't get anything done with the source code constantly changing by another team with their own priorities while we were trying to wind down and ship, so we branched out. After XSI V1.0, it was very difficult to consider merging back because it's emergencies after emergencies, and XSI wasn't made to run inside other application so it took over a lot of things that DS has other ideas for, and there were conflicting changes in both branches. Also their code version was increasingly not portable back to unix, something they don't care about. And it something would lead them to their demise as they couldn't port anything to Mac where Avid wanted to be. And we disagreed on many things. For example, the DS team wanting to control all the UI like the FCurve editor, but wanting to be focus on non-animators, or controlling the architecture of operators to conform it to their vision. So you're trying to make a 3D animation product, but you have to negotiate with another team that wants you do to things for them and their clients. You have to explain, justify and negotiate everything. Same thing for the mixer UI or the rendertree, they wanted to own that, but on their own terms. The principles of DS is that DS provides everything as shared service (ex: the FCurve editor, toolbars, menu, hotkey mapping, etc) and then you can plug your mini-app in it as a plug-in, a clip on its timeline. Only one such third party plugin was ever made, Toonz. In retrospect it's DS that should have been built on XSI, not the reverse - but DS shipped 2 years before XSI v1.0. Because 3D apps have become frameworks, XSI is the one that's the superset, with scripting, expressions, construction history, lots of viewport tools, etc. But in DS team's mind, the NLE market was 100 times bigger and the 3D market is shrinking, so it should be up to the 3D team to follow, not the reverse. Different points of views! In any case, nowadays it's kind of illogical to think of a Softimage
Re: Friday Flashback #238
' Each application also needed to go in directions that didn't make sense for the other. ' yes of course. I've always been hoping for more convergence/integration between 3D and comp in one streamlined package. but then there's the hard reality of studios, and their needs and projects - which lie elsewhere, 3D and postprod/editing being quite different crowds. -Original Message- From: Matt Lind Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 12:20 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: Friday Flashback #238 If memory serves, the main reason for splitting DS and XSI was architectural, not sales driven. XSI needed more than DS could provide, and vice versa. Each application also needed to go in directions that didn't make sense for the other. 'Twister' was split for the incompatibility reasons as well. Yes, very exciting but unfulfilled dream. What should've been. Matt Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:40:20 +0200 From: pete...@skynet.be Subject: Re: Friday Flashback #238 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com ah DS discontinued by Avid and XSI discontinued by AD. and what?s there to fill that particular void? they shared architecture and interface to a degree, and both had some very interesting forward thinking (visionary?) concepts at their origin. I remember opening a softimage 3D asset in the DS timeline, and changing the texture placement on it, and having it re-render, right there in the editing timeline, with mental ray - 15 years ago. It wasn?t all that useful, but it hinted of some very exciting future links between 3D and editing/comp. But then Avid drove a wedge between DS and XSI, pushing DS into a very awkward position in the Avid portfolio, and XSI into a kind of no mans land ? like an unwanted child they ended up with, not knowing what to do with. Somehow, that child managed to survive Avid and even start to show promise, then got sold off to AD, and even survived that and prospered. A while. I guess the industry as a whole didn?t need that integrated Digital Studio, and few really used DS and XSI in tandem - but I feel we are all the poorer without it. Sure, there?s some interesting convergence happening between 3D and comp these days ? but how I miss that particular Softimage spin on it.
Re: Friday Flashback #238
I too wouldnt be surprised something would come out of the Nk/Modo relationship, (a question of time?) And indeed at least for now, is 3D in nuke not just a little bit clunky. Doesn't need to be like complete DCC tools, but things like managing, manipulating and fixing projections, parenting things (sounds silly but) and other relationships. (very very clunky for now) On 08/28/15 16:54, Jordi Bares Dominguez wrote: The future is around the corner, we just need to look at the right place. Nuke and its ever expanding 3D capabilities integrated into the NukeStudio and Mari is in my opinion the natural evolution, albeit clunky still, but certainly interesting enough for me to invest my time. If you add on top of that Modo is becoming a serious contender, there is a sense of things to come that I guess was where DS+XSI were heading into, ahead of its time for sure were 3D was not what it is today, a semi-mechanised industry. jb On 28 Aug 2015, at 21:40, pete...@skynet.be wrote: ah DS discontinued by Avid and XSI discontinued by AD. and what’s there to fill that particular void? they shared architecture and interface to a degree, and both had some very interesting forward thinking (visionary?) concepts at their origin. I remember opening a softimage 3D asset in the DS timeline, and changing the texture placement on it, and having it re-render, right there in the editing timeline, with mental ray - 15 years ago. It wasn’t all that useful, but it hinted of some very exciting future links between 3D and editing/comp. But then Avid drove a wedge between DS and XSI, pushing DS into a very awkward position in the Avid portfolio, and XSI into a kind of no mans land – like an unwanted child they ended up with, not knowing what to do with. Somehow, that child managed to survive Avid and even start to show promise, then got sold off to AD, and even survived that and prospered. A while. I guess the industry as a whole didn’t need that integrated Digital Studio, and few really used DS and XSI in tandem - but I feel we are all the poorer without it. Sure, there’s some interesting convergence happening between 3D and comp these days – but how I miss that particular Softimage spin on it. From: Stephen Blair Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 9:58 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Friday Flashback #238 SOFTIMAGE|DS: Originality distinguishes art from craft http://wp.me/powV4-3dT
Re: Friday Flashback #238
If memory serves, the main reason for splitting DS and XSI was architectural, not sales driven. XSI needed more than DS could provide, and vice versa. Each application also needed to go in directions that didn't make sense for the other. 'Twister' was split for the incompatibility reasons as well. Yes, very exciting but unfulfilled dream. What should've been. Matt Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 22:40:20 +0200 From: pete...@skynet.be Subject: Re: Friday Flashback #238 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com ah DS discontinued by Avid and XSI discontinued by AD. and what?s there to fill that particular void? they shared architecture and interface to a degree, and both had some very interesting forward thinking (visionary?) concepts at their origin. I remember opening a softimage 3D asset in the DS timeline, and changing the texture placement on it, and having it re-render, right there in the editing timeline, with mental ray - 15 years ago. It wasn?t all that useful, but it hinted of some very exciting future links between 3D and editing/comp. But then Avid drove a wedge between DS and XSI, pushing DS into a very awkward position in the Avid portfolio, and XSI into a kind of no mans land ? like an unwanted child they ended up with, not knowing what to do with. Somehow, that child managed to survive Avid and even start to show promise, then got sold off to AD, and even survived that and prospered. A while. I guess the industry as a whole didn?t need that integrated Digital Studio, and few really used DS and XSI in tandem - but I feel we are all the poorer without it. Sure, there?s some interesting convergence happening between 3D and comp these days ? but how I miss that particular Softimage spin on it.
Re: Friday Flashback #238
The future is around the corner, we just need to look at the right place. Nuke and its ever expanding 3D capabilities integrated into the NukeStudio and Mari is in my opinion the natural evolution, albeit clunky still, but certainly interesting enough for me to invest my time. If you add on top of that Modo is becoming a serious contender, there is a sense of things to come that I guess was where DS+XSI were heading into, ahead of its time for sure were 3D was not what it is today, a semi-mechanised industry. jb On 28 Aug 2015, at 21:40, pete...@skynet.be wrote: ah DS discontinued by Avid and XSI discontinued by AD. and what’s there to fill that particular void? they shared architecture and interface to a degree, and both had some very interesting forward thinking (visionary?) concepts at their origin. I remember opening a softimage 3D asset in the DS timeline, and changing the texture placement on it, and having it re-render, right there in the editing timeline, with mental ray - 15 years ago. It wasn’t all that useful, but it hinted of some very exciting future links between 3D and editing/comp. But then Avid drove a wedge between DS and XSI, pushing DS into a very awkward position in the Avid portfolio, and XSI into a kind of no mans land – like an unwanted child they ended up with, not knowing what to do with. Somehow, that child managed to survive Avid and even start to show promise, then got sold off to AD, and even survived that and prospered. A while. I guess the industry as a whole didn’t need that integrated Digital Studio, and few really used DS and XSI in tandem - but I feel we are all the poorer without it. Sure, there’s some interesting convergence happening between 3D and comp these days – but how I miss that particular Softimage spin on it. From: Stephen Blair mailto:stephenrbl...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 9:58 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Friday Flashback #238 SOFTIMAGE|DS: Originality distinguishes art from craft http://wp.me/powV4-3dT http://wp.me/powV4-3dT
Re: Friday Flashback #238
ah DS discontinued by Avid and XSI discontinued by AD. and what’s there to fill that particular void? they shared architecture and interface to a degree, and both had some very interesting forward thinking (visionary?) concepts at their origin. I remember opening a softimage 3D asset in the DS timeline, and changing the texture placement on it, and having it re-render, right there in the editing timeline, with mental ray - 15 years ago. It wasn’t all that useful, but it hinted of some very exciting future links between 3D and editing/comp. But then Avid drove a wedge between DS and XSI, pushing DS into a very awkward position in the Avid portfolio, and XSI into a kind of no mans land – like an unwanted child they ended up with, not knowing what to do with. Somehow, that child managed to survive Avid and even start to show promise, then got sold off to AD, and even survived that and prospered. A while. I guess the industry as a whole didn’t need that integrated Digital Studio, and few really used DS and XSI in tandem - but I feel we are all the poorer without it. Sure, there’s some interesting convergence happening between 3D and comp these days – but how I miss that particular Softimage spin on it. From: Stephen Blair Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 9:58 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Friday Flashback #238 SOFTIMAGE|DS: Originality distinguishes art from craft http://wp.me/powV4-3dT
Friday Flashback #238
SOFTIMAGE|DS: Originality distinguishes art from craft http://wp.me/powV4-3dT
Re: Friday Flashback #238
I remember opening a softimage 3D asset in the DS timeline, and changing the texture placement on it, and having it re-render, right there in the editing timeline, with mental ray - 15 years ago. It wasn’t all that useful, but it hinted of some very exciting future links between 3D and editing/comp. Did you dream it? DS never really had that, they always dreamed of having mental ray or importing 3D scenes. In 1997 there was a pre-Sumatra demo shown around where you could create a 3D clip on the timeline and paint on it, that was built using Softimage|3D. It never passed the prototype stage. At one point a colleague put the dotXSI viewer as a plugin in DS and that was a demo which AFAIK never shipped. You could do basic 3D with the built-in Marquee tool in DS - a product Avid acquired - that's it. All of these were OpenGL only. That said, you were able to import Softimage|3D scenes in Eddie and render them in there. But then Avid drove a wedge between DS and XSI, Avid wasn't smart enough to scheme like that and AFAIK didn't do any such thing. Early on, we couldn't get anything done with the source code constantly changing by another team with their own priorities while we were trying to wind down and ship, so we branched out. After XSI V1.0, it was very difficult to consider merging back because it's emergencies after emergencies, and XSI wasn't made to run inside other application so it took over a lot of things that DS has other ideas for, and there were conflicting changes in both branches. Also their code version was increasingly not portable back to unix, something they don't care about. And it something would lead them to their demise as they couldn't port anything to Mac where Avid wanted to be. And we disagreed on many things. For example, the DS team wanting to control all the UI like the FCurve editor, but wanting to be focus on non-animators, or controlling the architecture of operators to conform it to their vision. So you're trying to make a 3D animation product, but you have to negotiate with another team that wants you do to things for them and their clients. You have to explain, justify and negotiate everything. Same thing for the mixer UI or the rendertree, they wanted to own that, but on their own terms. The principles of DS is that DS provides everything as shared service (ex: the FCurve editor, toolbars, menu, hotkey mapping, etc) and then you can plug your mini-app in it as a plug-in, a clip on its timeline. Only one such third party plugin was ever made, Toonz. In retrospect it's DS that should have been built on XSI, not the reverse - but DS shipped 2 years before XSI v1.0. Because 3D apps have become frameworks, XSI is the one that's the superset, with scripting, expressions, construction history, lots of viewport tools, etc. But in DS team's mind, the NLE market was 100 times bigger and the 3D market is shrinking, so it should be up to the 3D team to follow, not the reverse. Different points of views! In any case, nowadays it's kind of illogical to think of a Softimage as a plugin for a video editing app. The 3D app is going to be bigger and more ambitious in scope than an NLE app that's just got a timeline/compositing/vectorpaint/video capture and text. And in fact, as you know XSI almost has all of that without any help from DS.
