Re: Floating Dock

[Vince Sabolik]

On Feb 16, 2017, Charles Thurston  wrote:
>Hello Charles,
>
>See if I can get all the answers in this email:
>
>It is schedule 40 now and had to be centered in the floating section to
>keep it level, This will be 4 feet off center. There is no handrail on
>the floating section so it will be mounted to the deck with 2' risers
>to the hose valves. Leaning toward schedule 10 to save 10# per foot of
>weight.
>
>Art:  
>
>Well from low tide to high tide it has to get 12" shorter, I already
>have a flex hose at the top and there is a custom made Metraflex "V"
>hose at the bottom (now ON the bottom) to handle the movement. The "U"
>hose did not have enough movement range.
>
>Scott:
>
>Nice idea, I will look into those.
>
>Matt:
>
>The water is brackish, Tide going out is fairly fresh, tide coming in
>gets some salt into the area.
>
>John:
>
>I looked into HDPE pipe on the initial install back in 2010. It is
>above ground almost a 900 foot straight run out to the dock head, From
>my notes there was about 6 feet of difference in the length of the pipe
>due to temperature changes where is was not buried, The other was the
>sunlight exposure. I know of 2-3 docks in this area that are closed for
>use due to the HDPE welded joints separating under the decking and
>there is no way to weld it for a repair.
>
>
>Heck we even have a few in this area installed with white schedule 40
>plumbing pipe with glued joints under the decking.
>
>
>
>Thursday, February 16, 2017, 4:01:30 PM, you wrote:
>
>
>Hello Sprinklerforum,
>
>Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for
>the Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural
>failures of the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom
>of the river. Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no
>access under the dock. Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/-
>185' long, last hose valve is about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all
>the way when it was put in 5 years ago.

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Re: Floating Dock

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Charles,

See if I can get all the answers in this email:

It is schedule 40 now and had to be centered in the floating section to keep it 
level, This will be 4 feet off center. There is no handrail on the floating 
section so it will be mounted to the deck with 2' risers to the hose valves. 
Leaning toward schedule 10 to save 10# per foot of weight.

Art:  

Well from low tide to high tide it has to get 12" shorter, I already have a 
flex hose at the top and there is a custom made Metraflex "V" hose at the 
bottom (now ON the bottom) to handle the movement. The "U" hose did not have 
enough movement range.

Scott:

Nice idea, I will look into those.

Matt:

The water is brackish, Tide going out is fairly fresh, tide coming in gets some 
salt into the area.

John:

I looked into HDPE pipe on the initial install back in 2010. It is above ground 
almost a 900 foot straight run out to the dock head, From my notes there was 
about 6 feet of difference in the length of the pipe due to temperature changes 
where is was not buried, The other was the sunlight exposure. I know of 2-3 
docks in this area that are closed for use due to the HDPE welded joints 
separating under the decking and there is no way to weld it for a repair.


Heck we even have a few in this area installed with white schedule 40 plumbing 
pipe with glued joints under the decking.



Thursday, February 16, 2017, 4:01:30 PM, you wrote:


Hello Sprinklerforum,

Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the 
Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of 
the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river. 
Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the dock. 
Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/- 185' long, last hose valve is 
about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all the way when it was put in 5 years ago.

-- 
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile 



-- 
Best regards,
 Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile___
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Re: Pressure Reducing Valve on a Balancing Calculations

[MPhelps]

Hi Jerry,
Have you considered using a pressure sustaining valve on the supply side of the 
pump? It has the effect of limiting the pressure at low flow, then opening up 
to full pressure at high volume. I believe you would need to locate the valve 
upstream of the pump outside of the pump house to meet code.

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2017, at 6:19 PM, Jerry Van Kolken 
mailto:jvankol...@mfpc.us>> wrote:

I have a Fire Pump feeding a HiEX foam and Wet System. The start-up churn on 
the pump will cause the pressure to go over 175 psi so we are putting a 
pressure reducing valve on the wet feed side of the discharge.

I’m not sure how I balance this system anymore due to the PRV. The valve will 
be set at 165 discharge.

Any advice on how to proceed.

Thanks

Jerry Van Kolken
Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
Oceanside, CA 92058
(760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730

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Re: Pressure Reducing Valve on a Balancing Calculations

[Travis Mack]

Is this system installed or still in design?

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
"Follow" us on Facebook: 
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 16, 2017, at 6:19 PM, Jerry Van Kolken  wrote:
> 
> I have a Fire Pump feeding a HiEX foam and Wet System. The start-up churn on 
> the pump will cause the pressure to go over 175 psi so we are putting a 
> pressure reducing valve on the wet feed side of the discharge.
>  
> I’m not sure how I balance this system anymore due to the PRV. The valve will 
> be set at 165 discharge.
>  
> Any advice on how to proceed.
>  
> Thanks
>  
> Jerry Van Kolken
> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
> Oceanside, CA 92058
> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
>  
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Pressure Reducing Valve on a Balancing Calculations

[Jerry Van Kolken]

I have a Fire Pump feeding a HiEX foam and Wet System. The start-up churn on
the pump will cause the pressure to go over 175 psi so we are putting a
pressure reducing valve on the wet feed side of the discharge.

 

I'm not sure how I balance this system anymore due to the PRV. The valve
will be set at 165 discharge.

 

Any advice on how to proceed.

 

Thanks 

 

Jerry Van Kolken

Millennium Fire Protection Corp.

2950 San Luis Rey Rd.

Oceanside, CA 92058

(760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730

 

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RE: Floating Dock

[John Irwin]

I've never actually installed it myself. Priced it once. But I see it all over. 
Yes, typically under the floating docks feeding hose valves from below.





John Irwin
Critical System Solutions Sprinkler Construction Manager
813-618-2781 
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com


Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and 
punctuation gaffes.


 Original message 
From: "Hinson, Ryan" 
Date: 2/16/17 5:40 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Floating Dock

HDPE is only listed for underground suppression piping application.  Are you 
suspending HDPE in air below docks?  What about:

-  Poisson’s ratio of exposed plastic piping being significant due to 
temperature deltas in ambient air as well as pressure/expansion relationships 
between empty and pressurized plastic pipe?

-  HDPE exposure issues from sunlight?

-  Above grade use requiring compliance with NFPA 13 in private yard 
mains per NFPA 24 (2016) Section 10.1.4?

-  Material requirements of standpipe systems per NFPA 14 (2016) 
Sections 4.2.1, 4.2.6,  and Table 4.2.1?

-  Material requirements for above grade use per NFPA 13 (2016) 
Sections 6.3.1.1, 6.3.9.1.1, Table 6.3.1.1?

Both NFPA 24 (2016) Section 10.1.4.1 and NFPA 13 (2016) Section 6.3.1.1.1 limit 
‘underground piping’ to the first 2 ft above grade ONLY.

How is “fire protection lines” defined as referred to on page 3 of 8 of the 
Yelomine brochure?

All ‘nonmetallic’ piping I am aware of is listed or approved for UNDERGROUND 
installation only when used in a fire protection system.

See also Scot Deal’s prior forum emails regarding melted lead-ins where 
non-metallic pipe was used.

I personally do not believe one can or should be using any non-ferrous, 
‘nonmetallic’ piping other than CPVC (as listed) above grade in any fire 
suppression-type system without explicit manufacturer listing/testing 
literature approved by both the knowledgeable EOR and the AHJ.

Even then, I personally would not recommend it.

Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET**  \  Burns & McDonnell
Senior Fire Protection Engineer
O 952-656-3662 \  M 320-250-5404  \  F 952-229-2923
rhin...@burnsmcd.com  \  burnsmcd.com
8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300  \  Bloomington, MN 55437
*Registered in: MN, PA, & TX
**NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Irwin
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:57 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Floating Dock

We have a lot of these systems around here. Almost always HDPE pipe with 
stainless steel victaulic grooved fitting.

I also here this yellow mine product is becoming popular.


https://www.certainteed.com/resources/Yelomine_Product_Brochure_11-16-11.pdf







John Irwin
Critical System Solutions Sprinkler Construction Manager
813-618-2781 
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com


Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and 
punctuation gaffes.


 Original message 
From: Matt Grise mailto:m...@afpsprink.com>>
Date: 2/16/17 4:44 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Floating Dock
You mention river - any salt water exposure?

Matt



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:40 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Floating Dock

How much movement where dock connects to shore?

Metraflex Co has flex U loop that may be of value.
Can you support pipe on the floor outside the hand rail?


Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Mark Phillips
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:09 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org;
 Charles Thurston
Subject: Re: Floating Dock

Galvanized sch 40
Flexible couplings as it crosses any joints and a thermal expansion join to 
land connection.
I think victaulic made one but you coukd make it by using flexible coupling 
every six inches on a three foot section



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid
On Feb 16, 2017 4:02 PM, Charles Thurston 
mailto:charl...@mbfsg.com>> wrote:
Hello Sprinklerforum,

Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the 
Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of 
the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river.
Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the dock. 
Do

RE: Floating Dock

[Hinson, Ryan]

HDPE is only listed for underground suppression piping application.  Are you 
suspending HDPE in air below docks?  What about:

-  Poisson’s ratio of exposed plastic piping being significant due to 
temperature deltas in ambient air as well as pressure/expansion relationships 
between empty and pressurized plastic pipe?

-  HDPE exposure issues from sunlight?

-  Above grade use requiring compliance with NFPA 13 in private yard 
mains per NFPA 24 (2016) Section 10.1.4?

-  Material requirements of standpipe systems per NFPA 14 (2016) 
Sections 4.2.1, 4.2.6,  and Table 4.2.1?

-  Material requirements for above grade use per NFPA 13 (2016) 
Sections 6.3.1.1, 6.3.9.1.1, Table 6.3.1.1?

Both NFPA 24 (2016) Section 10.1.4.1 and NFPA 13 (2016) Section 6.3.1.1.1 limit 
‘underground piping’ to the first 2 ft above grade ONLY.

How is “fire protection lines” defined as referred to on page 3 of 8 of the 
Yelomine brochure?

All ‘nonmetallic’ piping I am aware of is listed or approved for UNDERGROUND 
installation only when used in a fire protection system.

See also Scot Deal’s prior forum emails regarding melted lead-ins where 
non-metallic pipe was used.

I personally do not believe one can or should be using any non-ferrous, 
‘nonmetallic’ piping other than CPVC (as listed) above grade in any fire 
suppression-type system without explicit manufacturer listing/testing 
literature approved by both the knowledgeable EOR and the AHJ.

Even then, I personally would not recommend it.

Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET**  \  Burns & McDonnell
Senior Fire Protection Engineer
O 952-656-3662 \  M 320-250-5404  \  F 952-229-2923
rhin...@burnsmcd.com  \  burnsmcd.com
8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300  \  Bloomington, MN 55437
*Registered in: MN, PA, & TX
**NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Irwin
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:57 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Floating Dock

We have a lot of these systems around here. Almost always HDPE pipe with 
stainless steel victaulic grooved fitting.

I also here this yellow mine product is becoming popular.


https://www.certainteed.com/resources/Yelomine_Product_Brochure_11-16-11.pdf







John Irwin
Critical System Solutions Sprinkler Construction Manager
813-618-2781 
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com


Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and 
punctuation gaffes.


 Original message 
From: Matt Grise mailto:m...@afpsprink.com>>
Date: 2/16/17 4:44 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Floating Dock
You mention river - any salt water exposure?

Matt



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:40 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Floating Dock

How much movement where dock connects to shore?

Metraflex Co has flex U loop that may be of value.
Can you support pipe on the floor outside the hand rail?


Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Mark Phillips
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:09 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org;
 Charles Thurston
Subject: Re: Floating Dock

Galvanized sch 40
Flexible couplings as it crosses any joints and a thermal expansion join to 
land connection.
I think victaulic made one but you coukd make it by using flexible coupling 
every six inches on a three foot section



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid
On Feb 16, 2017 4:02 PM, Charles Thurston 
mailto:charl...@mbfsg.com>> wrote:
Hello Sprinklerforum,

Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the 
Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of 
the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river.
Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the dock. 
Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/- 185' long, last hose valve is 
about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all the way when it was put in
5 years ago.

--
Best regards,
Charles Thurston
charl...@mbfsg.com>
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile

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RE: Floating Dock

[John Irwin]

We have a lot of these systems around here. Almost always HDPE pipe with 
stainless steel victaulic grooved fitting.

I also here this yellow mine product is becoming popular.


https://www.certainteed.com/resources/Yelomine_Product_Brochure_11-16-11.pdf







John Irwin
Critical System Solutions Sprinkler Construction Manager
813-618-2781 
jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com


Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and 
punctuation gaffes.


 Original message 
From: Matt Grise 
Date: 2/16/17 4:44 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Floating Dock

You mention river - any salt water exposure?

Matt



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:40 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Floating Dock

How much movement where dock connects to shore?

Metraflex Co has flex U loop that may be of value.
Can you support pipe on the floor outside the hand rail?


Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Mark Phillips
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:09 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; Charles Thurston
Subject: Re: Floating Dock

Galvanized sch 40
Flexible couplings as it crosses any joints and a thermal expansion join to 
land connection.
I think victaulic made one but you coukd make it by using flexible coupling 
every six inches on a three foot section



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid
On Feb 16, 2017 4:02 PM, Charles Thurston  wrote:
Hello Sprinklerforum,

Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the 
Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of 
the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river.
Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the dock. 
Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/- 185' long, last hose valve is 
about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all the way when it was put in
5 years ago.

--
Best regards,
Charles Thurston
charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile

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RE: Floating Dock

[Matt Grise]

You mention river - any salt water exposure?

Matt 
 


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Art Tiroly
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:40 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Floating Dock

How much movement where dock connects to shore?

Metraflex Co has flex U loop that may be of value.
Can you support pipe on the floor outside the hand rail?


Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Mark Phillips
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:09 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; Charles Thurston
Subject: Re: Floating Dock

Galvanized sch 40
Flexible couplings as it crosses any joints and a thermal expansion join to 
land connection.
I think victaulic made one but you coukd make it by using flexible coupling 
every six inches on a three foot section



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid
On Feb 16, 2017 4:02 PM, Charles Thurston  wrote:
Hello Sprinklerforum,

Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the 
Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of 
the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river.
Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the dock. 
Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/- 185' long, last hose valve is 
about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all the way when it was put in
5 years ago.

--
Best regards,
Charles Thurston
charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile

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RE: Floating Dock

[Mitchell, Scott]

http://www.ebaa.com/products/flex

The second one seems promising for your dock to land transition.  Says it is 
"particularly suited for use in above ground applications".

J. Scott Mitchell, PE
Senior Fire Protection Engineer
Mission Engineering
CNS Y-12 | 865-576-5258
CNS PTX | 806-477-5883


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Mark Phillips
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:09 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; Charles Thurston 

Subject: Re: Floating Dock

Galvanized sch 40
Flexible couplings as it crosses any joints and a thermal expansion join to 
land connection.
I think victaulic made one but you coukd make it by using flexible coupling 
every six inches on a three foot section



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid
On Feb 16, 2017 4:02 PM, Charles Thurston  wrote:
Hello Sprinklerforum,

Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the 
Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of 
the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river. 
Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the dock. 
Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/- 185' long, last hose valve is 
about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all the way when it was put in 5 years ago.

--
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  
charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile

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RE: Floating Dock

[Art Tiroly]

How much movement where dock connects to shore?

Metraflex Co has flex U loop that may be of value.
Can you support pipe on the floor outside the hand rail?


Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Mark Phillips
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:09 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; Charles Thurston
Subject: Re: Floating Dock

Galvanized sch 40
Flexible couplings as it crosses any joints and a thermal expansion join to
land connection.
I think victaulic made one but you coukd make it by using flexible coupling
every six inches on a three foot section



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid
On Feb 16, 2017 4:02 PM, Charles Thurston  wrote:
Hello Sprinklerforum,

Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the
Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of
the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river.
Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the
dock. Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/- 185' long, last hose
valve is about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all the way when it was put in
5 years ago.

--
Best regards,
Charles Thurston
charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile

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Re: Floating Dock

[Mark Phillips]

Galvanized sch 40
Flexible couplings as it crosses any joints and a thermal expansion join to 
land connection.
I think victaulic made one but you coukd make it by using flexible coupling 
every six inches on a three foot section



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid
On Feb 16, 2017 4:02 PM, Charles Thurston  wrote:
Hello Sprinklerforum,

Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the 
Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of 
the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river. 
Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the dock. 
Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/- 185' long, last hose valve is 
about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all the way when it was put in 5 years ago.

--
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  
charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile

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Floating Dock

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Sprinklerforum,

 Looking for suggestions for pipe to use on top of a floating dock for the 
Manual Dry standpipe. We had pipe under it but due to structural failures of 
the dock the pipe is now in 3-5 feet of muck in the bottom of the river. 
Looking to run the pipe on top of the dock. There is no access under the dock. 
Dock is Aluminum decking welded into place, +/- 185' long, last hose valve is 
about 1000 feet from the FDC. Had 6" all the way when it was put in 5 years ago.

-- 
Best regards,
Charles Thurston  charl...@mbfsg.com
MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP
A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety
1445 Cannon Road
Myrtle Beach, SC 29577
(843) 916 - 8787
(843) 839 - 3473 facsimile ___
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Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Bruce Verhei]

Replying to SL's comments re: Individual shut off and flow switches to 
individual tenant spaces in larger malls. True malls, larger than 50k sf have 
required active smoke control. Automatic detection is required. 

This may be by smoke detectors, or by flow switches configured as observed by 
SL.

Of course a considerable benefit is dealing with T/I's.

Best

Bruce Verhei 

> On Feb 16, 2017, at 10:29,   
> wrote:
> 
> In a perfect world, they are not getting an occupancy permit on the “vacant 
> spaces”. In that case it could be looked upon as no occupancy, no fire 
> hazard. If the spaces are vacant with no combustible load and no occupancy, 
> it behaves much like a noncombustible concealed space above the ceiling.
> Mark at Aero
> 602 820-7894
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Roland Huggins
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:03 AM
> To: SprinklerFORUM
> Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls
>  
> I don’t see how that could comply with the building code?
>  
>  
> Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
> American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
> Dallas, TX
> http://www.firesprinkler.org
>  
> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
>  
>  
>  
>  
> On Feb 16, 2017, at 9:29 AM, Steve Leyton  wrote:
>  
> Good point.   There are two basic ways to sprinkler a multi-tenant mall:  run 
> mains and branches throughout with capacity for TI’s or run just mains and 
> let each tenant build their own system by cutting into the main with a 
> saddle.   Over the years, I’ve worked on a couple of regional-sized malls 
> where the tenant suites were served by bulk mains only and each one had its 
> own control valve and alarm switch.   
>  
> SL
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:27 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls
>  
> Would it not be conceivable that the building owner is simply deferring the 
> cost of the sprinkler installation to the individual tenants when and if they 
> lease a shop/space in the building?
>  
> Mark at Aero
> 602 820-7894
>  
> F
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RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[MPhelps]

In a perfect world, they are not getting an occupancy permit on the “vacant 
spaces”. In that case it could be looked upon as no occupancy, no fire hazard. 
If the spaces are vacant with no combustible load and no occupancy, it behaves 
much like a noncombustible concealed space above the ceiling.
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Roland Huggins
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:03 AM
To: SprinklerFORUM
Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

I don’t see how that could comply with the building code?


Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




On Feb 16, 2017, at 9:29 AM, Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:

Good point.   There are two basic ways to sprinkler a multi-tenant mall:  run 
mains and branches throughout with capacity for TI’s or run just mains and let 
each tenant build their own system by cutting into the main with a saddle.   
Over the years, I’ve worked on a couple of regional-sized malls where the 
tenant suites were served by bulk mains only and each one had its own control 
valve and alarm switch.

SL

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:27 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

Would it not be conceivable that the building owner is simply deferring the 
cost of the sprinkler installation to the individual tenants when and if they 
lease a shop/space in the building?

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

F
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RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Steve Leyton]

Because if it’s a non-combustible building and the owner isn’t trying to obtain 
a certificate of occupancy for the rough tenant suites, then they can request 
final inspection on the common and back-of-house areas and defer the tenant 
suites.  It’s actually a low-drama scenario at the statutory level.

SML

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Roland Huggins
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:03 AM
To: SprinklerFORUM
Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

I don’t see how that could comply with the building code?


Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




On Feb 16, 2017, at 9:29 AM, Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:

Good point.   There are two basic ways to sprinkler a multi-tenant mall:  run 
mains and branches throughout with capacity for TI’s or run just mains and let 
each tenant build their own system by cutting into the main with a saddle.   
Over the years, I’ve worked on a couple of regional-sized malls where the 
tenant suites were served by bulk mains only and each one had its own control 
valve and alarm switch.

SL

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:27 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

Would it not be conceivable that the building owner is simply deferring the 
cost of the sprinkler installation to the individual tenants when and if they 
lease a shop/space in the building?

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

F
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Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Roland Huggins]

I don’t see how that could comply with the building code?


Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org 

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




> On Feb 16, 2017, at 9:29 AM, Steve Leyton  wrote:
> 
> Good point.   There are two basic ways to sprinkler a multi-tenant mall:  run 
> mains and branches throughout with capacity for TI’s or run just mains and 
> let each tenant build their own system by cutting into the main with a 
> saddle.   Over the years, I’ve worked on a couple of regional-sized malls 
> where the tenant suites were served by bulk mains only and each one had its 
> own control valve and alarm switch.   
>  
> SL
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> ] On Behalf Of 
> mphe...@aerofire.com 
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:27 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> 
> Subject: RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls
>  
> Would it not be conceivable that the building owner is simply deferring the 
> cost of the sprinkler installation to the individual tenants when and if they 
> lease a shop/space in the building?
>  
> Mark at Aero
> 602 820-7894
>  
> F
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Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Roland Huggins]

8.16.4.3 often gets referenced when the mains pass through unprotected portions 
of the building.


Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org 

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




> On Feb 16, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Shawn Chapman  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Steve, point well taken.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Steve Leyton 
> To: sprinklerforum 
> Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2017 10:11 am
> Subject: RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls
> 
> Careful with that claim Shawn.  NFPA 13 does NOT require a building or part 
> of a building to be furnished with sprinklers, just as NFPA 14 doesn't 
> require standpipes in buildings and NFPA 20 doesn't require pumps on FP 
> systems, etc., etc.   The adopted building code requires sprinklers in 
> buildings or only partially in buildings or not at all.  NFPA 13 prescribes 
> HOW to sprinkler those buildings or parts of buildings that are required to 
> be sprinklered.So if the building and/or fire officials apply/interpret 
> the code to allow this configuration then that's what it is and you sprinkler 
> those affected portions per NFPA 13.
> 
> I'm curious as to why certain parts of such a "building" would require 
> sprinklers and others not.  I understand there are "different" occupancies 
> but are they "separate" occupancies?   Or "separate" buildings?  If a fire 
> wall is required, each one of those assemblies is likely more expensive and 
> intrusive than sprinklers would be in an adjacent space.
> 
> Steve L.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Shawn Chapman
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:39 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls
> 
> I apologize for leaving out the Subject heading.  Ron, that is exactly what I 
> have always done, roughed in sprigs in the shell spaces to await future 
> build-outs.  However, the AHJ is allowing mains piped through unsprinkled 
> lease spaces, with only the tenants sprinklered.  They claim an IBC 
> allowance, while I claim that NFPA 13 doesn't allow this. 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: rongreenman . 
> To: sprinklerforum 
> Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2017 3:18 pm
> Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls
> 
> 
> 
> What I usually see up here is 80-100 sqft spacing calced to OH2 in for the 
> strip mall shell with a 1" nipple out of the side of branch lines to a 1" ell 
> with a 1" x 1/2" or 3/4" bushing to the head (allowed for temporary install) 
> in non-combustible construction and the nipple to a !" x 1/2" x 1" tee, half 
> inch up with a head, and a plug in the 1" pointing down in combustible 
> construction. The tight spacing leaves plenty of outlets for TIs and the OH2 
> covers any type of typical strip mall tenant.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Steve Leyton  
> wrote:
> Hey Shawn:
> 
> Remember to put a subject heading on every email so Roland and Frank have an 
> easier go of things on Archive Fridays.
> 
> Have never seen this but I'm in California where such horror is amended out 
> of our code.   You would need to have fire-rated occupancy or building 
> separations between the sprinklered and unsprinklered portions and I can see 
> a host of other issues, like having to run sprinkler pipe through 
> unsprinklered spaces.
> 
> You have M and A and maybe B group occupancies in this building (or chain of 
> buildings)?
> 
> Steve L.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Shawn Chapman
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:59 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject:
> 
> Are you folks seeing strip malls which are using some IBC code?? that 
> supposedly allows unsprinklered spaces in only certain assembly occupancy 
> lease spaces.  For instance, a strip mall that has 2 of 6 spaces only 
> sprinklered with 4 only having feed mains through unsprinklered space?  I 
> thought 13 was all or nothing..
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ron Greenman
> 
> rongreen...@gmail.com
> 
> 253.576.9700
> 
> 
> 
> The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner 
> Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[rongreenman .]

I've worked on those kinds of malls and typical up here is the bulk mains
running in the back of the spaces with cross-main locations on either
separate control valves or just flanges, with white painted frying pans on
chains, but I thought the conversation was about strip malls.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 9:29 AM, Steve Leyton 
wrote:

> Good point.   There are two basic ways to sprinkler a multi-tenant mall:
> run mains and branches throughout with capacity for TI’s or run just mains
> and let each tenant build their own system by cutting into the main with a
> saddle.   Over the years, I’ve worked on a couple of regional-sized malls
> where the tenant suites were served by bulk mains only and each one had its
> own control valve and alarm switch.
>
>
>
> SL
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *On Behalf Of *mphe...@aerofire.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:27 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls
>
>
>
> Would it not be conceivable that the building owner is simply deferring
> the cost of the sprinkler installation to the individual tenants when and
> if they lease a shop/space in the building?
>
>
>
> Mark at Aero
>
> 602 820-7894 <(602)%20820-7894>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org ] *On Behalf Of *Roland
> Huggins
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:27 AM
> *To:* SprinklerFORUM
> *Subject:* Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls
>
>
>
> Whether or not the swiss cheese passive construction is tight or not
> doesn’t change the owner’s building code driven options.  Their insurance
> carrier will obvious adjust their premiums accordingly.
>
>
>
> I never said it was the smart thing to do, just that it is allowed.  I was
> one of the initial somewhat loud voices saying one could not even mix
> different systems.  Then after a long discussion with a very patient Chris
> with the ICC, he turned on the light with a simple question.  How can I say
> that systems can never be mixed when it is possible to have large portions
> of an otherwise sprinklered building with NO SPRINKLERS at all.
>
>
>
> It’s still a stupid thing to do (for the few combinations that allow it)
> but it can be done.  Of course when there is a loss (just like the
> approximate 1 out of a 1000 fire events with 13R where the attic is
> involved), the owner is going to want to sue some one for not MAKING them
> spend the extra money up front for additional protection while all along
> fighting spending ANY MONEY on such things.
>
>
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
>
> American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
>
> Dallas, TX
>
> http://www.firesprinkler.org
>
>
>
> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 16, 2017, at 8:07 AM,  
> wrote:
>
>
>
> It’s totally conceivable that based on the Building Code occupancy
> classification of areas that there would be leased spaces that would not
> require an automatic fire sprinkler system.  However it is highly
> unlikely that during construction of the building that the owner would
> provide the proper fire rated separations between occupancies since it
> would be near impossible to anticipate future uses of the building.
>
>
>
> So unless they can provide compliant rated separations, it would be hard
> to defend with a blanket statement that no sprinklers are required in
> random areas.  Most of the time that kind of statement is made based on
> preference (the preference not to spend money) and unsubstantiated opinion
> and not so much on factual code data.
>
>
>
> But as the installing contractor, you should have been provided with
> engineering documents stating the requirements based on some sort of
> engineering/code analysis.  Hopefully.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Craig L. Prahl*
>
>
>
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> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>


-- 
Ron Greenman

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner
Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera
director (1942-)
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RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Steve Leyton]

Good point.   There are two basic ways to sprinkler a multi-tenant mall:  run 
mains and branches throughout with capacity for TI’s or run just mains and let 
each tenant build their own system by cutting into the main with a saddle.   
Over the years, I’ve worked on a couple of regional-sized malls where the 
tenant suites were served by bulk mains only and each one had its own control 
valve and alarm switch.

SL

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:27 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

Would it not be conceivable that the building owner is simply deferring the 
cost of the sprinkler installation to the individual tenants when and if they 
lease a shop/space in the building?

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Roland Huggins
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:27 AM
To: SprinklerFORUM
Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

Whether or not the swiss cheese passive construction is tight or not doesn’t 
change the owner’s building code driven options.  Their insurance carrier will 
obvious adjust their premiums accordingly.

I never said it was the smart thing to do, just that it is allowed.  I was one 
of the initial somewhat loud voices saying one could not even mix different 
systems.  Then after a long discussion with a very patient Chris with the ICC, 
he turned on the light with a simple question.  How can I say that systems can 
never be mixed when it is possible to have large portions of an otherwise 
sprinklered building with NO SPRINKLERS at all.

It’s still a stupid thing to do (for the few combinations that allow it) but it 
can be done.  Of course when there is a loss (just like the approximate 1 out 
of a 1000 fire events with 13R where the attic is involved), the owner is going 
to want to sue some one for not MAKING them spend the extra money up front for 
additional protection while all along fighting spending ANY MONEY on such 
things.

Roland


Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




On Feb 16, 2017, at 8:07 AM, 
mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>> 
mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>> wrote:

It’s totally conceivable that based on the Building Code occupancy 
classification of areas that there would be leased spaces that would not 
require an automatic fire sprinkler system.  However it is highly unlikely that 
during construction of the building that the owner would provide the proper 
fire rated separations between occupancies since it would be near impossible to 
anticipate future uses of the building.

So unless they can provide compliant rated separations, it would be hard to 
defend with a blanket statement that no sprinklers are required in random 
areas.  Most of the time that kind of statement is made based on preference 
(the preference not to spend money) and unsubstantiated opinion and not so much 
on factual code data.

But as the installing contractor, you should have been provided with 
engineering documents stating the requirements based on some sort of 
engineering/code analysis.  Hopefully.



Craig L. Prahl

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RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[MPhelps]

Would it not be conceivable that the building owner is simply deferring the 
cost of the sprinkler installation to the individual tenants when and if they 
lease a shop/space in the building?

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Roland Huggins
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:27 AM
To: SprinklerFORUM
Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

Whether or not the swiss cheese passive construction is tight or not doesn’t 
change the owner’s building code driven options.  Their insurance carrier will 
obvious adjust their premiums accordingly.

I never said it was the smart thing to do, just that it is allowed.  I was one 
of the initial somewhat loud voices saying one could not even mix different 
systems.  Then after a long discussion with a very patient Chris with the ICC, 
he turned on the light with a simple question.  How can I say that systems can 
never be mixed when it is possible to have large portions of an otherwise 
sprinklered building with NO SPRINKLERS at all.

It’s still a stupid thing to do (for the few combinations that allow it) but it 
can be done.  Of course when there is a loss (just like the approximate 1 out 
of a 1000 fire events with 13R where the attic is involved), the owner is going 
to want to sue some one for not MAKING them spend the extra money up front for 
additional protection while all along fighting spending ANY MONEY on such 
things.

Roland


Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




On Feb 16, 2017, at 8:07 AM, 
mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>> 
mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>> wrote:

It’s totally conceivable that based on the Building Code occupancy 
classification of areas that there would be leased spaces that would not 
require an automatic fire sprinkler system.  However it is highly unlikely that 
during construction of the building that the owner would provide the proper 
fire rated separations between occupancies since it would be near impossible to 
anticipate future uses of the building.

So unless they can provide compliant rated separations, it would be hard to 
defend with a blanket statement that no sprinklers are required in random 
areas.  Most of the time that kind of statement is made based on preference 
(the preference not to spend money) and unsubstantiated opinion and not so much 
on factual code data.

But as the installing contractor, you should have been provided with 
engineering documents stating the requirements based on some sort of 
engineering/code analysis.  Hopefully.



Craig L. Prahl

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Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Shawn Chapman]

Thanks Steve, point well taken.


-Original Message-
From: Steve Leyton 
To: sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2017 10:11 am
Subject: RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

Careful with that claim Shawn.  NFPA 13 does NOT require a building or part of 
a building to be furnished with sprinklers, just as NFPA 14 doesn't require 
standpipes in buildings and NFPA 20 doesn't require pumps on FP systems, etc., 
etc.   The adopted building code requires sprinklers in buildings or only 
partially in buildings or not at all.  NFPA 13 prescribes HOW to sprinkler 
those buildings or parts of buildings that are required to be sprinklered.
So if the building and/or fire officials apply/interpret the code to allow this 
configuration then that's what it is and you sprinkler those affected portions 
per NFPA 13.

I'm curious as to why certain parts of such a "building" would require 
sprinklers and others not.  I understand there are "different" occupancies but 
are they "separate" occupancies?   Or "separate" buildings?  If a fire wall is 
required, each one of those assemblies is likely more expensive and intrusive 
than sprinklers would be in an adjacent space.

Steve L.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Shawn Chapman
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:39 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

I apologize for leaving out the Subject heading.  Ron, that is exactly what I 
have always done, roughed in sprigs in the shell spaces to await future 
build-outs.  However, the AHJ is allowing mains piped through unsprinkled lease 
spaces, with only the tenants sprinklered.  They claim an IBC allowance, while 
I claim that NFPA 13 doesn't allow this. 


-Original Message-
From: rongreenman . 
To: sprinklerforum 
Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2017 3:18 pm
Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls



What I usually see up here is 80-100 sqft spacing calced to OH2 in for the 
strip mall shell with a 1" nipple out of the side of branch lines to a 1" ell 
with a 1" x 1/2" or 3/4" bushing to the head (allowed for temporary install) in 
non-combustible construction and the nipple to a !" x 1/2" x 1" tee, half inch 
up with a head, and a plug in the 1" pointing down in combustible construction. 
The tight spacing leaves plenty of outlets for TIs and the OH2 covers any type 
of typical strip mall tenant.


On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Steve Leyton  
wrote:
Hey Shawn:

Remember to put a subject heading on every email so Roland and Frank have an 
easier go of things on Archive Fridays.

Have never seen this but I'm in California where such horror is amended out of 
our code.   You would need to have fire-rated occupancy or building separations 
between the sprinklered and unsprinklered portions and I can see a host of 
other issues, like having to run sprinkler pipe through unsprinklered spaces.

You have M and A and maybe B group occupancies in this building (or chain of 
buildings)?

Steve L.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Shawn Chapman
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject:

Are you folks seeing strip malls which are using some IBC code?? that 
supposedly allows unsprinklered spaces in only certain assembly occupancy lease 
spaces.  For instance, a strip mall that has 2 of 6 spaces only sprinklered 
with 4 only having feed mains through unsprinklered space?  I thought 13 was 
all or nothing..
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rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700



The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, 
screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-)






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Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Roland Huggins]

Whether or not the swiss cheese passive construction is tight or not doesn’t 
change the owner’s building code driven options.  Their insurance carrier will 
obvious adjust their premiums accordingly.  

I never said it was the smart thing to do, just that it is allowed.  I was one 
of the initial somewhat loud voices saying one could not even mix different 
systems.  Then after a long discussion with a very patient Chris with the ICC, 
he turned on the light with a simple question.  How can I say that systems can 
never be mixed when it is possible to have large portions of an otherwise 
sprinklered building with NO SPRINKLERS at all.

It’s still a stupid thing to do (for the few combinations that allow it) but it 
can be done.  Of course when there is a loss (just like the approximate 1 out 
of a 1000 fire events with 13R where the attic is involved), the owner is going 
to want to sue some one for not MAKING them spend the extra money up front for 
additional protection while all along fighting spending ANY MONEY on such 
things.

Roland 


Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org 

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




> On Feb 16, 2017, at 8:07 AM,   
> wrote:
> 
> It’s totally conceivable that based on the Building Code occupancy 
> classification of areas that there would be leased spaces that would not 
> require an automatic fire sprinkler system.  However it is highly unlikely 
> that during construction of the building that the owner would provide the 
> proper fire rated separations between occupancies since it would be near 
> impossible to anticipate future uses of the building. 
>  
> So unless they can provide compliant rated separations, it would be hard to 
> defend with a blanket statement that no sprinklers are required in random 
> areas.  Most of the time that kind of statement is made based on preference 
> (the preference not to spend money) and unsubstantiated opinion and not so 
> much on factual code data. 
>  
> But as the installing contractor, you should have been provided with 
> engineering documents stating the requirements based on some sort of 
> engineering/code analysis.  Hopefully.
>  
>  
> 
> Craig L. Prahl 

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Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Roland Huggins]

Oh ye of little faith:  "could be interpreted” and “alluding” indeed.

As doubting Ron stated, in a non-separated mixed use, the most demanding 
applies throughout.  In a separated, mixed occupation, it depends of the 
occupancies, type of construction, height, application of trade-offs etc.  It’s 
not a quick and easy determination and is driven by the EOR and the folks 
providing the building permit.  It’s an explicit process with definitive 
variables - just follow the bouncing ball.

Roland

Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org 

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




> On Feb 16, 2017, at 7:49 AM, rongreenman .  wrote:
> 
> I think the building code would allow, or could be interpreted, to mean what 
> Roland is alluding to in his short post. Then the same with Steve. Is the AHJ 
> calling for sprinklers per occupancy definitions in the building code? You 
> can make a case that in a mixed use you need a OH2 in the auto-parts store, 
> an LH in the restaurant dining area, nothing in the real estate office 
> equipped with a FAP and pull stations, etc. Or you can argue that this is a 
> mixed use building and the entire thing needs sprinklering throughout and to 
> the highest hazard occupant unless there are separations that 
> compartmentalize the apparent single building into attached multiple 
> buildings. Language s so imprecise, especially when multiple groups use the 
> same word with different meanings. 
> 

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RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Craig.Prahl]

It's totally conceivable that based on the Building Code occupancy 
classification of areas that there would be leased spaces that would not 
require an automatic fire sprinkler system.  However it is highly unlikely that 
during construction of the building that the owner would provide the proper 
fire rated separations between occupancies since it would be near impossible to 
anticipate future uses of the building.

So unless they can provide compliant rated separations, it would be hard to 
defend with a blanket statement that no sprinklers are required in random 
areas.  Most of the time that kind of statement is made based on preference 
(the preference not to spend money) and unsubstantiated opinion and not so much 
on factual code data.

But as the installing contractor, you should have been provided with 
engineering documents stating the requirements based on some sort of 
engineering/code analysis.  Hopefully.



Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Roland Huggins
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:17 AM
To: SprinklerFORUM 
Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls [EXTERNAL]

I did an article in 2013 on when different parts of  a single building can have 
different levels of protection.  IT started off with when you could have a 
portion with a 13 system and others with a 13R.  It morphed into when you can 
have parts with NO protection.  Shoot me an email off line if anyone wants a 
copy.

Roland


Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




On Feb 16, 2017, at 7:10 AM, Steve Leyton 
mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:

Careful with that claim Shawn.  NFPA 13 does NOT require a building or part of 
a building to be furnished with sprinklers, just as NFPA 14 doesn't require 
standpipes in buildings and NFPA 20 doesn't require pumps on FP systems, etc., 
etc.   The adopted building code requires sprinklers in buildings or only 
partially in buildings or not at all.  NFPA 13 prescribes HOW to sprinkler 
those buildings or parts of buildings that are required to be sprinklered.
So if the building and/or fire officials apply/interpret the code to allow this 
configuration then that's what it is and you sprinkler those affected portions 
per NFPA 13.

I'm curious as to why certain parts of such a "building" would require 
sprinklers and others not.  I understand there are "different" occupancies but 
are they "separate" occupancies?   Or "separate" buildings?  If a fire wall is 
required, each one of those assemblies is likely more expensive and intrusive 
than sprinklers would be in an adjacent space.

Steve L.

---
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Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[rongreenman .]

I think the building code would allow, or could be interpreted, to mean
what Roland is alluding to in his short post. Then the same with Steve. Is
the AHJ calling for sprinklers per occupancy definitions in the building
code? You can make a case that in a mixed use you need a OH2 in the
auto-parts store, an LH in the restaurant dining area, nothing in the real
estate office equipped with a FAP and pull stations, etc. Or you can argue
that this is a mixed use building and the entire thing needs sprinklering
throughout and to the highest hazard occupant unless there are separations
that compartmentalize the apparent single building into attached multiple
buildings. Language s so imprecise, especially when multiple groups use the
same word with different meanings.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 7:17 AM, Roland Huggins 
wrote:

> I did an article in 2013 on when different parts of  a single building can
> have different levels of protection.  IT started off with when you could
> have a portion with a 13 system and others with a 13R.  It morphed into
> when you can have parts with NO protection.  Shoot me an email off line if
> anyone wants a copy.
>
> Roland
>
>
> Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
> American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
> Dallas, TX
> http://www.firesprinkler.org
>
> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 16, 2017, at 7:10 AM, Steve Leyton 
> wrote:
>
> Careful with that claim Shawn.  NFPA 13 does NOT require a building or
> part of a building to be furnished with sprinklers, just as NFPA 14 doesn't
> require standpipes in buildings and NFPA 20 doesn't require pumps on FP
> systems, etc., etc.   The adopted building code requires sprinklers in
> buildings or only partially in buildings or not at all.  NFPA 13 prescribes
> HOW to sprinkler those buildings or parts of buildings that are required to
> be sprinklered.So if the building and/or fire officials apply/interpret
> the code to allow this configuration then that's what it is and you
> sprinkler those affected portions per NFPA 13.
>
> I'm curious as to why certain parts of such a "building" would require
> sprinklers and others not.  I understand there are "different" occupancies
> but are they "separate" occupancies?   Or "separate" buildings?  If a fire
> wall is required, each one of those assemblies is likely more expensive and
> intrusive than sprinklers would be in an adjacent space.
>
> Steve L.
>
> ---
>
>
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> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>


-- 
Ron Greenman

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner
Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera
director (1942-)
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Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Roland Huggins]

I did an article in 2013 on when different parts of  a single building can have 
different levels of protection.  IT started off with when you could have a 
portion with a 13 system and others with a 13R.  It morphed into when you can 
have parts with NO protection.  Shoot me an email off line if anyone wants a 
copy.

Roland


Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org 

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




> On Feb 16, 2017, at 7:10 AM, Steve Leyton  wrote:
> 
> Careful with that claim Shawn.  NFPA 13 does NOT require a building or part 
> of a building to be furnished with sprinklers, just as NFPA 14 doesn't 
> require standpipes in buildings and NFPA 20 doesn't require pumps on FP 
> systems, etc., etc.   The adopted building code requires sprinklers in 
> buildings or only partially in buildings or not at all.  NFPA 13 prescribes 
> HOW to sprinkler those buildings or parts of buildings that are required to 
> be sprinklered.So if the building and/or fire officials apply/interpret 
> the code to allow this configuration then that's what it is and you sprinkler 
> those affected portions per NFPA 13.
> 
> I'm curious as to why certain parts of such a "building" would require 
> sprinklers and others not.  I understand there are "different" occupancies 
> but are they "separate" occupancies?   Or "separate" buildings?  If a fire 
> wall is required, each one of those assemblies is likely more expensive and 
> intrusive than sprinklers would be in an adjacent space.
> 
> Steve L.
> 
> ---
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RE: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Steve Leyton]

Careful with that claim Shawn.  NFPA 13 does NOT require a building or part of 
a building to be furnished with sprinklers, just as NFPA 14 doesn't require 
standpipes in buildings and NFPA 20 doesn't require pumps on FP systems, etc., 
etc.   The adopted building code requires sprinklers in buildings or only 
partially in buildings or not at all.  NFPA 13 prescribes HOW to sprinkler 
those buildings or parts of buildings that are required to be sprinklered.
So if the building and/or fire officials apply/interpret the code to allow this 
configuration then that's what it is and you sprinkler those affected portions 
per NFPA 13.

I'm curious as to why certain parts of such a "building" would require 
sprinklers and others not.  I understand there are "different" occupancies but 
are they "separate" occupancies?   Or "separate" buildings?  If a fire wall is 
required, each one of those assemblies is likely more expensive and intrusive 
than sprinklers would be in an adjacent space.

Steve L.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Shawn Chapman
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:39 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

I apologize for leaving out the Subject heading.  Ron, that is exactly what I 
have always done, roughed in sprigs in the shell spaces to await future 
build-outs.  However, the AHJ is allowing mains piped through unsprinkled lease 
spaces, with only the tenants sprinklered.  They claim an IBC allowance, while 
I claim that NFPA 13 doesn't allow this. 


-Original Message-
From: rongreenman . 
To: sprinklerforum 
Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2017 3:18 pm
Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls



What I usually see up here is 80-100 sqft spacing calced to OH2 in for the 
strip mall shell with a 1" nipple out of the side of branch lines to a 1" ell 
with a 1" x 1/2" or 3/4" bushing to the head (allowed for temporary install) in 
non-combustible construction and the nipple to a !" x 1/2" x 1" tee, half inch 
up with a head, and a plug in the 1" pointing down in combustible construction. 
The tight spacing leaves plenty of outlets for TIs and the OH2 covers any type 
of typical strip mall tenant.


On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Steve Leyton  
wrote:
Hey Shawn:

Remember to put a subject heading on every email so Roland and Frank have an 
easier go of things on Archive Fridays.

Have never seen this but I'm in California where such horror is amended out of 
our code.   You would need to have fire-rated occupancy or building separations 
between the sprinklered and unsprinklered portions and I can see a host of 
other issues, like having to run sprinkler pipe through unsprinklered spaces.

You have M and A and maybe B group occupancies in this building (or chain of 
buildings)?

Steve L.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Shawn Chapman
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject:

Are you folks seeing strip malls which are using some IBC code?? that 
supposedly allows unsprinklered spaces in only certain assembly occupancy lease 
spaces.  For instance, a strip mall that has 2 of 6 spaces only sprinklered 
with 4 only having feed mains through unsprinklered space?  I thought 13 was 
all or nothing..
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rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700



The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, 
screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-)






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Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls

[Shawn Chapman]

I apologize for leaving out the Subject heading.  Ron, that is exactly what I 
have always done, roughed in sprigs in the shell spaces to await future 
build-outs.  However, the AHJ is allowing mains piped through unsprinkled lease 
spaces, with only the
tenants sprinklered.  They claim an IBC allowance, while I claim that NFPA 13 
doesn't allow this. 


-Original Message-
From: rongreenman . 
To: sprinklerforum 
Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2017 3:18 pm
Subject: Re: Unsprinklered spaces in strip malls



What I usually see up here is 80-100 sqft spacing calced to OH2 in for the 
strip mall shell with a 1" nipple out of the side of branch lines to a 1" ell 
with a 1" x 1/2" or 3/4" bushing to the head (allowed for temporary install) in 
non-combustible construction and the nipple to a !" x 1/2" x 1" tee, half inch 
up with a head, and a plug in the 1" pointing down in combustible construction. 
The tight spacing leaves plenty of outlets for TIs and the OH2 covers any type 
of typical strip mall tenant.


On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Steve Leyton  
wrote:
Hey Shawn:

Remember to put a subject heading on every email so Roland and Frank have an 
easier go of things on Archive Fridays.

Have never seen this but I'm in California where such horror is amended out of 
our code.   You would need to have fire-rated occupancy or building separations 
between the sprinklered and unsprinklered portions and I can see a host of 
other issues, like having to run sprinkler pipe through unsprinklered spaces.

You have M and A and maybe B group occupancies in this building (or chain of 
buildings)?

Steve L.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Shawn Chapman
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:59 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject:

Are you folks seeing strip malls which are using some IBC code?? that 
supposedly allows unsprinklered spaces in only certain assembly occupancy lease 
spaces.  For instance, a strip mall that has 2 of 6 spaces only sprinklered 
with 4 only having feed mains through unsprinklered space?  I thought 13 was 
all or nothing..
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rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700



The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, 
screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-)






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RE: Owner Info Certificate

[Todd Williams]

Thanks

Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT Office: 
860-535-2080 Cell: 860-608-4559 [tel:860-608-4559] Fax: 860-553-3553
On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 12:23 PM, Travis Allen- Allen Engineering 
 wrote:
Here’s an Word form for your use: 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15560791/Project%20Information%20Certificate.docx
 
[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15560791/Project%20Information%20Certificate.docx]



-Travis



Travis E. Allen, PE

Principal



Allen Engineering, PLLC



From: Todd Williams [mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Owner Info Certicate



Actually I wouldn't mind a copy either if you would like to share

Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

Office: 860-535-2080

Cell: 860-608-4559 [tel:860-608-4559]

Fax: 860-553-3553



On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Paul Cetani < pa...@norcalfire.com 
[pa...@norcalfire.com] > wrote:

Hey Scott,

I would love a copy of that in Word as well if you wouldn’t mind. It would save 
me the time to create my own….



Paul B. Cetani

Exec. Vice President



Nor Cal Fire, Inc.

16840 Joleen Way, Bldg A

Morgan Hill, CA 95037

T 408-776-1580

F 408-776-1590

pa...@norcalfire.com [pa...@norcalfire.com]

www.norcalfire.com [http://www.norcalfire.com/]



From: Sprinklerforum [ mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] ] On Behalf Of Scott Futrell
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 5:24 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org]
Subject: RE: Owner Info Certicate



Todd,

We don’t start bid documents without these filled out and signed by the 
occupants – we have a Word document we send them.

We don’t start plan review without them included in the submittal.



Scott



Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2

Cell: (612) 759-5556



From: Sprinklerforum [ mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] ] On Behalf Of Todd Williams
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 10:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org]
Subject: Re: Owner Info Certicate



Does anyone actually get those?

Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

Office: 860-535-2080

Cell: 860-608-4559 [tel:860-608-4559]

Fax: 860-553-3553



On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Travis Mack, SET < tm...@mfpdesign.com 
[tm...@mfpdesign.com] > wrote:

Does anyone have this in a word or excel format that they wouldn't mind
sending me?


--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com [http://www.mfpdesign.com]
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 
[https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692]
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign 
[https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack 
[https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack]

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