Re: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

2021-03-19 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum 
BTW, I probably should have included in my comments, the requirements for floor 
control valve assemblies in NFPA 13, 2019 edition section 16.9.11, which might 
be applicable to Jerry’s situation.  Again, I may have missed the point of the 
original question…. But I’m old so I have an excuse! 




Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
w:  firesprinkler.org   
    
   
   

 

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> On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:35 PM, BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’d ask why. Is the fire sprinkler system acting as detection system for a 
> smoke exhaust system? 
> 
> Best.
> 
> Bruce Verhei
> 
> 
>> On 03/18/2021 8:05 PM Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> We've had cases where the 2 story volume area is required to be protected 
>> from the 1st floor system, but not the entire building just off of one 
>> system because of that.
>> 
>> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, COC, SET
>> Engineering Manager
>> MFP Design
>> 3356 E Vallejo Ct
>> Gilbert, AZ 85298
>> 480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471
>> travis.m...@mfpdesign.com
>> www.mfpdesign.com
>> 
>> Send large files to us via: 
>> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
>> 
>> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
>> Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 5:03 PM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Cc: Jerry Van Kolken 
>> Subject: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard
>> 
>> I've had this review comment come up and want to know if there was any way 
>> to argue it.
>> 
>> I have a project where each level of the building has its own system. There 
>> are areas where the lower level opens into the upper level. Because these 2 
>> level are not complete separate the reviewer is asking me to protect them 
>> with the same system.
>> 
>> Jerry Van Kolken
>> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
>> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
>> Oceanside, CA 92058
>> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
>> 
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the sole use 
>> of the intended recipients and contain information that may be confidential 
>> or legally privileged. If you have received this e-mail in error, please 
>> notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. Any disclosure, 
>> copying, distribution, or use of this communication by someone other than 
>> the intended recipient is prohibited.
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RE: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

2021-03-19 Thread Taylor Schumacher via Sprinklerforum 
I am going through a very similar situation-2 story lobby with the floors zoned 
separately. I couldn't find anything that says explicitly which floor to pick 
this up from. One could certainly argue that it would be first floor based on 
the room number following first floor numbering. I decided to reach out to the 
Fire Marshal before submission and had him authorize us to feed the high 
sprinklers from the second floor zone. He stated that is how he assumed it 
would be fed...

As Bob stated, it is your decision unless it is not acceptable per something 
written. Have the AHJ show you where this is not allowed.


Taylor Schumacher



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 7:45 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Bob Caputo
Subject: Re: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same 
hazard

Jerry,

NFPA 13 is clear that it is the designers responsibility to design the system 
and chose the design method.  It is the AHJs (reviewer’s) responsibility to 
review the submitted design for acceptance to adopted codes and standards.  
Unless the reviewer in your case is the owner’s representative as would be the 
case for an A firm, the design method is the purview of the designer.

Admittedly, the specific comment in NFPA 13, 2019 edition section 19.2.1 is 
speaking to the selection of a design approach ie: density/area; residential; 
room design method… but the statement is clear in the fact that the design is 
required to meet the rules provided in NFPA 13 at the designer’s digression.  
You may not exceed the allowable area per system, not exceed spacing 
limitations and provide proper hanger and bracing components, and so on, unless 
you submit alternatives under section 1.5.

I would not encourage you to pick a fight with an AHJ, who’s purview it is to 
decide what is compliant or not… but they are not the system designer. 

With an apology if I’ve missed the point of your issues…. the information 
provided herein is an informal interpretation of the standard and the opinion 
of the writer and may not be considered a formal interpretation of the 
standard, may not express the opinion of NFPA or its technical committees. 

Bob 




Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
w:  firesprinkler.org   
    
   
   

 

Expand your business with ITM

Professionalize the role of your inspection team with AFSA’s ITM Inspector 
Development Program. This comprehensive 20-month program provides a blended 
learning environment teamed with robust curriculum created by top industry 
leaders. Plus, the first six-months of instruction is online. Now enrolling for 
Spring 2021 .

> On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:35 PM, BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’d ask why. Is the fire sprinkler system acting as detection system for a 
> smoke exhaust system? 
> 
> Best.
> 
> Bruce Verhei
> 
> 
>> On 03/18/2021 8:05 PM Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> We've had cases where the 2 story volume area is required to be protected 
>> from the 1st floor system, but not the entire building just off of one 
>> system because of that.
>> 
>> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, COC, SET
>> Engineering Manager
>> MFP Design
>> 3356 E Vallejo Ct
>> Gilbert, AZ 85298
>> 480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471
>> travis.m...@mfpdesign.com
>> www.mfpdesign.com
>> 
>> Send large files to us via: 
>> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
>> 
>> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
>> Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 5:03 PM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Cc: Jerry Van Kolken 
>> Subject: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard
>> 
>> I've had this review comment come up and want to know if there was any way 
>> to argue it.
>> 
>> I have a project where each level of the building has its own system. There 
>> are areas where the lower level opens into the upper level. Because these 2 
>> level are not complete separate the reviewer is asking me to protect them 
>> with the same system.
>> 
>> Jerry Van Kolken
>> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
>> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
>> Oceanside, CA 92058
>> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
>> 
>>

Re: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

2021-03-19 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum 
Jerry,

NFPA 13 is clear that it is the designers responsibility to design the system 
and chose the design method.  It is the AHJs (reviewer’s) responsibility to 
review the submitted design for acceptance to adopted codes and standards.  
Unless the reviewer in your case is the owner’s representative as would be the 
case for an A firm, the design method is the purview of the designer.

Admittedly, the specific comment in NFPA 13, 2019 edition section 19.2.1 is 
speaking to the selection of a design approach ie: density/area; residential; 
room design method… but the statement is clear in the fact that the design is 
required to meet the rules provided in NFPA 13 at the designer’s digression.  
You may not exceed the allowable area per system, not exceed spacing 
limitations and provide proper hanger and bracing components, and so on, unless 
you submit alternatives under section 1.5.

I would not encourage you to pick a fight with an AHJ, who’s purview it is to 
decide what is compliant or not… but they are not the system designer. 

With an apology if I’ve missed the point of your issues…. the information 
provided herein is an informal interpretation of the standard and the opinion 
of the writer and may not be considered a formal interpretation of the 
standard, may not express the opinion of NFPA or its technical committees. 

Bob 




Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
w:  firesprinkler.org   
    
   
   

 

Expand your business with ITM

Professionalize the role of your inspection team with AFSA’s ITM Inspector 
Development Program. This comprehensive 20-month program provides a blended 
learning environment teamed with robust curriculum created by top industry 
leaders. Plus, the first six-months of instruction is online. Now enrolling for 
Spring 2021 .

> On Mar 18, 2021, at 9:35 PM, BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’d ask why. Is the fire sprinkler system acting as detection system for a 
> smoke exhaust system? 
> 
> Best.
> 
> Bruce Verhei
> 
> 
>> On 03/18/2021 8:05 PM Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> We've had cases where the 2 story volume area is required to be protected 
>> from the 1st floor system, but not the entire building just off of one 
>> system because of that.
>> 
>> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, COC, SET
>> Engineering Manager
>> MFP Design
>> 3356 E Vallejo Ct
>> Gilbert, AZ 85298
>> 480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471
>> travis.m...@mfpdesign.com
>> www.mfpdesign.com
>> 
>> Send large files to us via: 
>> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
>> 
>> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
>> Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 5:03 PM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Cc: Jerry Van Kolken 
>> Subject: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard
>> 
>> I've had this review comment come up and want to know if there was any way 
>> to argue it.
>> 
>> I have a project where each level of the building has its own system. There 
>> are areas where the lower level opens into the upper level. Because these 2 
>> level are not complete separate the reviewer is asking me to protect them 
>> with the same system.
>> 
>> Jerry Van Kolken
>> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
>> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
>> Oceanside, CA 92058
>> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
>> 
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the sole use 
>> of the intended recipients and contain information that may be confidential 
>> or legally privileged. If you have received this e-mail in error, please 
>> notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. Any disclosure, 
>> copying, distribution, or use of this communication by someone other than 
>> the intended recipient is prohibited.
>> ___
>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
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>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>

RE: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

2021-03-18 Thread BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum 
I’d ask why. Is the fire sprinkler system acting as detection system for a 
smoke exhaust system? 

Best.

Bruce Verhei


> On 03/18/2021 8:05 PM Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
>  
> We've had cases where the 2 story volume area is required to be protected 
> from the 1st floor system, but not the entire building just off of one system 
> because of that.
> 
> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, COC, SET
> Engineering Manager
> MFP Design
> 3356 E Vallejo Ct
> Gilbert, AZ 85298
> 480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471
> travis.m...@mfpdesign.com
> www.mfpdesign.com
> 
> Send large files to us via: 
> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
> 
> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
> Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 5:03 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Jerry Van Kolken 
> Subject: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard
> 
> I've had this review comment come up and want to know if there was any way to 
> argue it.
> 
> I have a project where each level of the building has its own system. There 
> are areas where the lower level opens into the upper level. Because these 2 
> level are not complete separate the reviewer is asking me to protect them 
> with the same system.
> 
> Jerry Van Kolken
> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
> Oceanside, CA 92058
> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
> 
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the sole use 
> of the intended recipients and contain information that may be confidential 
> or legally privileged. If you have received this e-mail in error, please 
> notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. Any disclosure, 
> copying, distribution, or use of this communication by someone other than the 
> intended recipient is prohibited.
> ___
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RE: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

2021-03-18 Thread Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum 
I ask because this time it will require a 40'-0" drop and seismic assembly for 
each sprinkler

Jerry Van Kolken
Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
Oceanside, CA 92058
(760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 5:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Jerry Van Kolken 
Subject: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

I've had this review comment come up and want to know if there was any way to 
argue it.

I have a project where each level of the building has its own system. There are 
areas where the lower level opens into the upper level. Because these 2 level 
are not complete separate the reviewer is asking me to protect them with the 
same system.

Jerry Van Kolken
Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
Oceanside, CA 92058
(760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the sole use of 
the intended recipients and contain information that may be confidential or 
legally privileged. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify 
the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, 
distribution, or use of this communication by someone other than the intended 
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RE: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

2021-03-18 Thread Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum 
I believe there was a change somewhere, or just good practice, but responders 
like the ability to shut the system off from the floor they are standing on.

In other words, if you can see it, then the control valve should be on the 
level you are standing.

I have been meaning to research this more in depth as we had similar 
discussions.

I will dig in some more.

After some sleep.

R/
Matt

If 

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 6:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Jerry Van Kolken 
Subject: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

I've had this review comment come up and want to know if there was any way to 
argue it.

I have a project where each level of the building has its own system. There are 
areas where the lower level opens into the upper level. Because these 2 level 
are not complete separate the reviewer is asking me to protect them with the 
same system.

Jerry Van Kolken
Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
Oceanside, CA 92058
(760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the sole use of 
the intended recipients and contain information that may be confidential or 
legally privileged. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify 
the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, 
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RE: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

2021-03-18 Thread Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum 
We've had cases where the 2 story volume area is required to be protected from 
the 1st floor system, but not the entire building just off of one system 
because of that.

Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, COC, SET
Engineering Manager
MFP Design
3356 E Vallejo Ct
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271 ext. 700 C: 480-272-2471
travis.m...@mfpdesign.com
www.mfpdesign.com

Send large files to us via: 
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2021 5:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Jerry Van Kolken 
Subject: Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

I've had this review comment come up and want to know if there was any way to 
argue it.

I have a project where each level of the building has its own system. There are 
areas where the lower level opens into the upper level. Because these 2 level 
are not complete separate the reviewer is asking me to protect them with the 
same system.

Jerry Van Kolken
Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
Oceanside, CA 92058
(760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the sole use of 
the intended recipients and contain information that may be confidential or 
legally privileged. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify 
the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, 
distribution, or use of this communication by someone other than the intended 
recipient is prohibited.
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Different Levels of protection open to each other in the same hazard

2021-03-18 Thread Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum 
I've had this review comment come up and want to know if there was any way to 
argue it.

I have a project where each level of the building has its own system. There are 
areas where the lower level opens into the upper level. Because these 2 level 
are not complete separate the reviewer is asking me to protect them with the 
same system.

Jerry Van Kolken
Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
Oceanside, CA 92058
(760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the sole use of 
the intended recipients and contain information that may be confidential or 
legally privileged. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify 
the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. Any disclosure, copying, 
distribution, or use of this communication by someone other than the intended 
recipient is prohibited.
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