Re: 13R Test and Drain Question
The thread title threw me off. I was seeing test and drain relating to floor control drains. I don't have codes handy but is the 6.9.1 referenced in 6.10.4 the system or sectional drain or is it a low point drain, or...? Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:55 PM Pete Schwab wrote: > I will agree with Larry on the analysis of what is allowed. If we do not > use a manifold with the built in test and drain but have the sawn > sprinkler, then the official drain line is restricted by the sawn > sprinkler. Of the thousands of NFPA 13R installations we do like this, we > have been only questioned once or twice by the AHJ. The reality is that > even through the orifice the system can be drained. There is not a time > limitation on how fast the system needs to be drained. > > > > This is my opinion and not that of the NFPA being on the RSS committee. > > > > Pete > > > > P.S. If you are going to attend the AFSA 37 in DC, please attend my class > on NFPA 13R. > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum *On > Behalf Of *Larry Keeping > *Sent:* Thursday, September 20, 2018 1:55 PM > *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > *Subject:* RE: 13R Test and Drain Question > > > > We can always agree to disagree. From my perspective: > > > > - 6.10.2 says: *The test connection pipe shall be at least 1 in. > (25 mm) nominal diameter and terminate in an orifice equal to or smaller > than the same size as the smallest sprinkler installed in the system.* > > - 6.10.3 says: A valve shall be installed in the test connection > piping. > > > > And then: > > > > - 6.10.4 says: *When the drain required in 6.9.1 is arranged as > a test connection (ie. as per the above), a separate test connection isn’t > required.* > > > > When I read what is in the standard, I don’t see anything about a test > port being taken off the drain line. > > > > So, as I see, it if you configure your drain in accordance with 6.10.2 & > 6.10.3, the assembly can serve as both the drain and the test pipe. > > > > Just my personal opinion. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Larry Keeping > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum *On > Behalf Of *Ron Greenman > *Sent:* September-20-18 11:47 AM > *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > *Subject:* Re: 13R Test and Drain Question > > > > Larry, I’d disagree with that interpretation as the minimum drain size is > 1 inch. I believe that “connection” is the key word here asboth drains and > test piers are not part of the system but attached to it. I think what’s > being said is you can take the test port off of the drain line if properly > configured rather than need a separate connection to the system. > > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:41 AM Larry Keeping > wrote: > > I would say that test pipe would do the job, based on what it says in > 6.10.4: > > > > *6.10.4 When the drain required in 6.9.1 is arranged as a test connection, > a separate test connection shall not be required.* > > > > Larry Keeping > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum *On > Behalf Of *James Litvak > *Sent:* September-20-18 11:00 AM > *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > *Subject:* 13R Test and Drain Question > > > > On a 13R system, 6.9.2 specifies that the drain piping must be at least 1" > nominal size. If a residential system riser has a 1" drain pipe to outside > that has either a test valve with a 1/2" orifice or terminates at a broken > sprinkler with a 1/2" orifice, does that drain piping still meet the > requirements of 6.9.2? > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > -- > > Sent from Gmail Mobile > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: 13R Test and Drain Question
I will agree with Larry on the analysis of what is allowed. If we do not use a manifold with the built in test and drain but have the sawn sprinkler, then the official drain line is restricted by the sawn sprinkler. Of the thousands of NFPA 13R installations we do like this, we have been only questioned once or twice by the AHJ. The reality is that even through the orifice the system can be drained. There is not a time limitation on how fast the system needs to be drained. This is my opinion and not that of the NFPA being on the RSS committee. Pete P.S. If you are going to attend the AFSA 37 in DC, please attend my class on NFPA 13R. From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Larry Keeping Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 1:55 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: 13R Test and Drain Question We can always agree to disagree. From my perspective: - 6.10.2 says: The test connection pipe shall be at least 1 in. (25 mm) nominal diameter and terminate in an orifice equal to or smaller than the same size as the smallest sprinkler installed in the system. - 6.10.3 says: A valve shall be installed in the test connection piping. And then: - 6.10.4 says: When the drain required in 6.9.1 is arranged as a test connection (ie. as per the above), a separate test connection isn’t required. When I read what is in the standard, I don’t see anything about a test port being taken off the drain line. So, as I see, it if you configure your drain in accordance with 6.10.2 & 6.10.3, the assembly can serve as both the drain and the test pipe. Just my personal opinion. Best regards, Larry Keeping From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: September-20-18 11:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: 13R Test and Drain Question Larry, I’d disagree with that interpretation as the minimum drain size is 1 inch. I believe that “connection” is the key word here asboth drains and test piers are not part of the system but attached to it. I think what’s being said is you can take the test port off of the drain line if properly configured rather than need a separate connection to the system. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:41 AM Larry Keeping mailto:lkeep...@plcfire.com>> wrote: I would say that test pipe would do the job, based on what it says in 6.10.4: 6.10.4 When the drain required in 6.9.1 is arranged as a test connection, a separate test connection shall not be required. Larry Keeping From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of James Litvak Sent: September-20-18 11:00 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: 13R Test and Drain Question On a 13R system, 6.9.2 specifies that the drain piping must be at least 1" nominal size. If a residential system riser has a 1" drain pipe to outside that has either a test valve with a 1/2" orifice or terminates at a broken sprinkler with a 1/2" orifice, does that drain piping still meet the requirements of 6.9.2? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org<http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org> -- Sent from Gmail Mobile ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: 13R Test and Drain Question
We can always agree to disagree. From my perspective: * 6.10.2 says: The test connection pipe shall be at least 1 in. (25 mm) nominal diameter and terminate in an orifice equal to or smaller than the same size as the smallest sprinkler installed in the system. * 6.10.3 says: A valve shall be installed in the test connection piping. And then: * 6.10.4 says: When the drain required in 6.9.1 is arranged as a test connection (ie. as per the above), a separate test connection isn’t required. When I read what is in the standard, I don’t see anything about a test port being taken off the drain line. So, as I see, it if you configure your drain in accordance with 6.10.2 & 6.10.3, the assembly can serve as both the drain and the test pipe. Just my personal opinion. Best regards, Larry Keeping From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: September-20-18 11:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: 13R Test and Drain Question Larry, I’d disagree with that interpretation as the minimum drain size is 1 inch. I believe that “connection” is the key word here asboth drains and test piers are not part of the system but attached to it. I think what’s being said is you can take the test port off of the drain line if properly configured rather than need a separate connection to the system. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:41 AM Larry Keeping mailto:lkeep...@plcfire.com>> wrote: I would say that test pipe would do the job, based on what it says in 6.10.4: 6.10.4 When the drain required in 6.9.1 is arranged as a test connection, a separate test connection shall not be required. Larry Keeping From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of James Litvak Sent: September-20-18 11:00 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: 13R Test and Drain Question On a 13R system, 6.9.2 specifies that the drain piping must be at least 1" nominal size. If a residential system riser has a 1" drain pipe to outside that has either a test valve with a 1/2" orifice or terminates at a broken sprinkler with a 1/2" orifice, does that drain piping still meet the requirements of 6.9.2? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Sent from Gmail Mobile ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: 13R Test and Drain Question
Larry, I’d disagree with that interpretation as the minimum drain size is 1 inch. I believe that “connection” is the key word here asboth drains and test piers are not part of the system but attached to it. I think what’s being said is you can take the test port off of the drain line if properly configured rather than need a separate connection to the system. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:41 AM Larry Keeping wrote: > I would say that test pipe would do the job, based on what it says in > 6.10.4: > > > > *6.10.4 When the drain required in 6.9.1 is arranged as a test connection, > a separate test connection shall not be required.* > > > > Larry Keeping > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum *On > Behalf Of *James Litvak > *Sent:* September-20-18 11:00 AM > *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > *Subject:* 13R Test and Drain Question > > > > On a 13R system, 6.9.2 specifies that the drain piping must be at least 1" > nominal size. If a residential system riser has a 1" drain pipe to outside > that has either a test valve with a 1/2" orifice or terminates at a broken > sprinkler with a 1/2" orifice, does that drain piping still meet the > requirements of 6.9.2? > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: 13R Test and Drain Question
I would say that test pipe would do the job, based on what it says in 6.10.4: 6.10.4 When the drain required in 6.9.1 is arranged as a test connection, a separate test connection shall not be required. Larry Keeping From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of James Litvak Sent: September-20-18 11:00 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: 13R Test and Drain Question On a 13R system, 6.9.2 specifies that the drain piping must be at least 1" nominal size. If a residential system riser has a 1" drain pipe to outside that has either a test valve with a 1/2" orifice or terminates at a broken sprinkler with a 1/2" orifice, does that drain piping still meet the requirements of 6.9.2? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: 13R Test and Drain Question
I think you’d need to use one of the commercially manufactured test and drain valves where you have the option of running full or at the k factor you need for the testing part or you can split the drain near the terminus and valve one way to the drain and one way to the test port. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:00 AM James Litvak wrote: > On a 13R system, 6.9.2 specifies that the drain piping must be at least 1" > nominal size. If a residential system riser has a 1" drain pipe to outside > that has either a test valve with a 1/2" orifice or terminates at a broken > sprinkler with a 1/2" orifice, does that drain piping still meet the > requirements of 6.9.2? > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
