Re: [sqlalchemy] sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12505: TNS:listener does not currently know of SID given in connect descriptor
Michael Bayer wrote: On Dec 17, 2011, at 1:52 AM, jo wrote: create_engine(oracle://user:password@SHELL) could you tell me how it becomes in sqlalchemy.dburi on tg prod.cfg ? sqlalchemy.dburi=oracle://username:password@host:port/service_name I tried in this way: sqlalchemy.dburi=oracle://username:password@SHELL:1521/SHELL but... sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12545: Connect failed because target host or object does not exist er, without the /db or port, host becomes the tns name, as in the example: sqlalchemy.dburi=oracle://user:password@SHELL SHELL is a tns name, cx_oracle looks it up in the local tnsnames file to get all the correct connection information. I tried as you said Michael and this is the error message: sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12154: TNS:could not resolve the connect identifier specified I tried like so: sqlalchemy.dburi=oracle://user:password@SHELL and I also tried using the port number: sqlalchemy.dburi=oracle://user:password@SHELL:1521 but the error is always the same. j -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.
Re: [sqlalchemy] performance vs. psycopg2
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 15:58, Jon Nelson jnel...@jamponi.net wrote: Revised to use: for row in rows: dict(row) # throw away result count += 1 I wonder how this could even work... iterating over the row yields individual values, not tuples?! I wonder what kind of column types you are using. Could you post your code for both your tests (with and without SA)? SQLAlchemy: 115,000 to 120,000 rows/s (vs. psycopg2 @ 480K - 580K, or psycopg2 COPY @ 620K). I suspect the issue is that I'm only selecting one column, so the per-row overhead is exaggerated. That is certainly a factor but even then, your numbers seem strange (at least to me). -- Gaëtan de Menten -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.
[sqlalchemy] Re: Error after upgrading from v0.6.6 to 0.7.4
Hi! Sorry for the late answer. I got it now: There was a relation called 'status' in the parent class and a function called status() in the derived class. After renaming the function everything seems to work correct. So the error does not belong to sqlalchemy, but concerns some bad coding by myself. A short description is below the message. Thank you very much for your help! Uwe Seher What i have done: changes in mapper.py: def _is_userland_descriptor(self, obj): try: return not isinstance(obj, (MapperProperty, attributes.QueryableAttribute)) and \ hasattr(obj, '__get__') and not \ isinstance(obj.__get__(None, obj), attributes.QueryableAttribute) except: import pdb, sys e,m,tb = sys.exc_info() pdb.post_mortem(tb) What happens: uwe@pallas:~/dev/python/endb ./test_api.py /usr/local/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/endblib/model/endbauth.py:42: SADeprecationWarning: useexisting is deprecated. Use extend_existing. schema=schemata['pub'], useexisting=True) /usr/local/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/endblib/model/endbauth.py:51: SADeprecationWarning: useexisting is deprecated. Use extend_existing. schema=schemata['pub'], useexisting=True) /usr/local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/SQLAlchemy-0.7.4-py2.6-linux- x86_64.egg/sqlalchemy/ext/declarative.py:1172: SADeprecationWarning: useexisting is deprecated. Use extend_existing. **table_kw) /usr/local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/SQLAlchemy-0.7.4-py2.6-linux-x86_64.egg/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py(1459)_is_userland_descriptor() - isinstance(obj.__get__(None, obj), (Pdb) args self = Mapper|Facility|facilities obj = unbound method Facility.status (Pdb) The error does not happen anymore when importing the lib in idle, but when running my testscript and using it. The method in obj looks like this and is not finished at the moment. If i comment it out, everything works. On 15 Dez., 16:48, Michael Bayer mike...@zzzcomputing.com wrote: On Dec 15, 2011, at 2:38 AM, useher wrote: I write a library with some classes that has to bundle function for different applications accessing data on a PostgreSQL-9.x Server. sqlalchemy is installed and maintained by easy_install not by packetmanagement. After upgrading to 0.7.4 the following error occurs: File build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py, line 1481, in _should_exclude File build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py, line 1458, in _is_userland_descriptor TypeError: Error when calling the metaclass bases issubclass() arg 1 must be a class I need to see what arg actually is here - you'll note the SQLAlchemy code in question isn't calling issubclass(), it's calling isinstance(). It suggests that SQLA's invocation of the descriptor itself is resulting in an issubclass() call, though when I try to simulate this error the stack trace is explicit: File /Users/classic/dev/sqlalchemy/lib/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py, line 1458, in _is_userland_descriptor isinstance(obj.__get__(None, obj), File test.py, line 9, in __get__ if issubclass(owner, object): TypeError: Error when calling the metaclass bases issubclass() arg 1 must be a class so not sure why the actual source of issubclass() is not present in your stack trace. Can you just pdb into that section using pdb.post_mortem() and figure out what the descriptor in question is actually doing ? I'd like to understand what's going on before just putting in a blunt except:. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.
[sqlalchemy] Re: Error after upgrading from v0.6.6 to 0.7.4
Hi! Sorry for the late answer. I got it now: There was a relation called 'status' in the parent class and a function called status() in the derived class. After renaming the function everything seems to work correct. So the error does not belong to sqlalchemy, but concerns some bad coding by myself. A short description is below the message. Thank you very much for your help! Uwe Seher What i have done: changes in mapper.py: def _is_userland_descriptor(self, obj): try: return not isinstance(obj, (MapperProperty, attributes.QueryableAttribute)) and \ hasattr(obj, '__get__') and not \ isinstance(obj.__get__(None, obj), attributes.QueryableAttribute) except: import pdb, sys e,m,tb = sys.exc_info() pdb.post_mortem(tb) What happens: uwe@pallas:~/dev/python/endb ./test_api.py /usr/local/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/endblib/model/endbauth.py:42: SADeprecationWarning: useexisting is deprecated. Use extend_existing. schema=schemata['pub'], useexisting=True) /usr/local/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/endblib/model/endbauth.py:51: SADeprecationWarning: useexisting is deprecated. Use extend_existing. schema=schemata['pub'], useexisting=True) /usr/local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/SQLAlchemy-0.7.4-py2.6-linux- x86_64.egg/sqlalchemy/ext/declarative.py:1172: SADeprecationWarning: useexisting is deprecated. Use extend_existing. **table_kw) /usr/local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/SQLAlchemy-0.7.4-py2.6-linux-x86_64.egg/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py(1459)_is_userland_descriptor() - isinstance(obj.__get__(None, obj), (Pdb) args self = Mapper|Facility|facilities obj = unbound method Facility.status (Pdb) The error does not happen anymore when importing the lib in idle, but when running my testscript and using it. The method in obj looks like this and is not finished at the moment. If i comment it out, everything works. On 15 Dez., 16:48, Michael Bayer mike...@zzzcomputing.com wrote: On Dec 15, 2011, at 2:38 AM, useher wrote: I write a library with some classes that has to bundle function for different applications accessing data on a PostgreSQL-9.x Server. sqlalchemy is installed and maintained by easy_install not by packetmanagement. After upgrading to 0.7.4 the following error occurs: File build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py, line 1481, in _should_exclude File build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py, line 1458, in _is_userland_descriptor TypeError: Error when calling the metaclass bases issubclass() arg 1 must be a class I need to see what arg actually is here - you'll note the SQLAlchemy code in question isn't calling issubclass(), it's calling isinstance(). It suggests that SQLA's invocation of the descriptor itself is resulting in an issubclass() call, though when I try to simulate this error the stack trace is explicit: File /Users/classic/dev/sqlalchemy/lib/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py, line 1458, in _is_userland_descriptor isinstance(obj.__get__(None, obj), File test.py, line 9, in __get__ if issubclass(owner, object): TypeError: Error when calling the metaclass bases issubclass() arg 1 must be a class so not sure why the actual source of issubclass() is not present in your stack trace. Can you just pdb into that section using pdb.post_mortem() and figure out what the descriptor in question is actually doing ? I'd like to understand what's going on before just putting in a blunt except:. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.
Re: [sqlalchemy] How to work with python3.2 and mysql?
Le 18/12/2011 19:07, Michael Bayer a écrit : On Dec 18, 2011, at 6:29 AM, Florent Angebault wrote: Hello. I tried many different configurations to connect to mysql5 server using python3.2 and sqlalchemy 0.7.4 but couldn't have success. I always end with an error due to the fact that some string data is of type 'bytes' instead of 'str'. Below are 2 test cases that both fail. The first one uses PyMySQL3-0.5 and the second one uses mysql-connector-0.3.2-devel. I don't know if I made mistakes with my configuration, or if it's a bug I should report. If I made a mistake, I'd be glad if someone could give me a link to the appropriate documentation. If it's a bug, I don't know where I should report it: sqlalchemy, mysqlconnector or pymysql project? OK well take a look at supported DBs: http://www.sqlalchemy.org/docs/core/engines.html#supported-databases The only drivers supported for MySQL + Py3K are OurSQL and MySQL-connector/python. In particular OurSQL runs pretty well and is on our continuous integration environment, with not quite all but most tests passing. I tried oursql and had some difficulties to have it work correctly: I managed to compile version 0.9.2 but then I had to patch it a bit (bug #805983 that seems to be fixed in 0.9.3). Version 0.9.3 for py3k is not released yet and I failed to compile it (I'm not familiar with those compilation things). My locally-patched oursql-0.9.2 is currently good enough for me to continue working. When I have more time (or when I'll encounter another problem with oursql) I'll give another try to MySQL-connector/python. Thanks for your help. -- Florent Angebault -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.
Re: [sqlalchemy] Re: Error after upgrading from v0.6.6 to 0.7.4
On Dec 19, 2011, at 5:03 AM, useher wrote: Hi! Sorry for the late answer. I got it now: There was a relation called 'status' in the parent class and a function called status() in the derived class. After renaming the function everything seems to work correct. So the error does not belong to sqlalchemy, but concerns some bad coding by myself. A short description is below the message. Thank you very much for your help! thanks for the info ! I've captured this as http://www.sqlalchemy.org/trac/ticket/2352 where we might add a more informative error message. Uwe Seher What i have done: changes in mapper.py: def _is_userland_descriptor(self, obj): try: return not isinstance(obj, (MapperProperty, attributes.QueryableAttribute)) and \ hasattr(obj, '__get__') and not \ isinstance(obj.__get__(None, obj), attributes.QueryableAttribute) except: import pdb, sys e,m,tb = sys.exc_info() pdb.post_mortem(tb) What happens: uwe@pallas:~/dev/python/endb ./test_api.py /usr/local/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/endblib/model/endbauth.py:42: SADeprecationWarning: useexisting is deprecated. Use extend_existing. schema=schemata['pub'], useexisting=True) /usr/local/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/endblib/model/endbauth.py:51: SADeprecationWarning: useexisting is deprecated. Use extend_existing. schema=schemata['pub'], useexisting=True) /usr/local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/SQLAlchemy-0.7.4-py2.6-linux- x86_64.egg/sqlalchemy/ext/declarative.py:1172: SADeprecationWarning: useexisting is deprecated. Use extend_existing. **table_kw) /usr/local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/SQLAlchemy-0.7.4-py2.6-linux-x86_64.egg/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py(1459)_is_userland_descriptor() - isinstance(obj.__get__(None, obj), (Pdb) args self = Mapper|Facility|facilities obj = unbound method Facility.status (Pdb) The error does not happen anymore when importing the lib in idle, but when running my testscript and using it. The method in obj looks like this and is not finished at the moment. If i comment it out, everything works. On 15 Dez., 16:48, Michael Bayer mike...@zzzcomputing.com wrote: On Dec 15, 2011, at 2:38 AM, useher wrote: I write a library with some classes that has to bundle function for different applications accessing data on a PostgreSQL-9.x Server. sqlalchemy is installed and maintained by easy_install not by packetmanagement. After upgrading to 0.7.4 the following error occurs: File build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py, line 1481, in _should_exclude File build/bdist.linux-x86_64/egg/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py, line 1458, in _is_userland_descriptor TypeError: Error when calling the metaclass bases issubclass() arg 1 must be a class I need to see what arg actually is here - you'll note the SQLAlchemy code in question isn't calling issubclass(), it's calling isinstance(). It suggests that SQLA's invocation of the descriptor itself is resulting in an issubclass() call, though when I try to simulate this error the stack trace is explicit: File /Users/classic/dev/sqlalchemy/lib/sqlalchemy/orm/mapper.py, line 1458, in _is_userland_descriptor isinstance(obj.__get__(None, obj), File test.py, line 9, in __get__ if issubclass(owner, object): TypeError: Error when calling the metaclass bases issubclass() arg 1 must be a class so not sure why the actual source of issubclass() is not present in your stack trace. Can you just pdb into that section using pdb.post_mortem() and figure out what the descriptor in question is actually doing ?I'd like to understand what's going on before just putting in a blunt except:. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.
Re: [sqlalchemy] sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12505: TNS:listener does not currently know of SID given in connect descriptor
Michael Bayer wrote: On Dec 19, 2011, at 3:28 AM, jose soares wrote: I tried as you said Michael and this is the error message: sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12154: TNS:could not resolve the connect identifier specified I tried like so: sqlalchemy.dburi=oracle://user:password@SHELL and I also tried using the port number: sqlalchemy.dburi=oracle://user:password@SHELL:1521 but the error is always the same. j OK, but if you connect with cx_oracle: cx_Oracle.connect(user='user', password='password', dsn='SHELL') then it connects ? it should be the exact same thing. not in this way: cx_Oracle.connect(user='user', password='password', dsn='SHELL') but in this way: cx_Oracle.connect(user='user', password='password', dsn=cx_Oracle.makedsn('myhost',1521,'SHELL').replace('SID','SERVICE_NAME')) j -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.
Re: [sqlalchemy] sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12505: TNS:listener does not currently know of SID given in connect descriptor
On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:17 AM, jose soares wrote: Michael Bayer wrote: On Dec 19, 2011, at 3:28 AM, jose soares wrote: I tried as you said Michael and this is the error message: sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12154: TNS:could not resolve the connect identifier specified I tried like so: sqlalchemy.dburi=oracle://user:password@SHELL and I also tried using the port number: sqlalchemy.dburi=oracle://user:password@SHELL:1521 but the error is always the same. j OK, but if you connect with cx_oracle: cx_Oracle.connect(user='user', password='password', dsn='SHELL') then it connects ? it should be the exact same thing. not in this way: cx_Oracle.connect(user='user', password='password', dsn='SHELL') but in this way: cx_Oracle.connect(user='user', password='password', dsn=cx_Oracle.makedsn('myhost',1521,'SHELL').replace('SID','SERVICE_NAME')) this is weird. What's in your tnsnames.ora ?Is there the chance that just modifying tnsnames.ora or adding a new entry would solve this ? Sorry for all the questions I just need to determine what SQLAlchemy should do here, either add some new connect styles or just tell users to modify their tns files -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.
Re: [sqlalchemy] sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12505: TNS:listener does not currently know of SID given in connect descriptor
Michael Bayer wrote: On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:17 AM, jose soares wrote: Michael Bayer wrote: On Dec 19, 2011, at 3:28 AM, jose soares wrote: I tried as you said Michael and this is the error message: sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12154: TNS:could not resolve the connect identifier specified I tried like so: sqlalchemy.dburi=oracle://user:password@SHELL and I also tried using the port number: sqlalchemy.dburi=oracle://user:password@SHELL:1521 but the error is always the same. j OK, but if you connect with cx_oracle: cx_Oracle.connect(user='user', password='password', dsn='SHELL') then it connects ? it should be the exact same thing. not in this way: cx_Oracle.connect(user='user', password='password', dsn='SHELL') but in this way: cx_Oracle.connect(user='user', password='password', dsn=cx_Oracle.makedsn('myhost',1521,'SHELL').replace('SID','SERVICE_NAME')) this is weird. What's in your tnsnames.ora ?Is there the chance that just modifying tnsnames.ora or adding a new entry would solve this ? Sorry for all the questions I just need to determine what SQLAlchemy should do here, either add some new connect styles or just tell users to modify their tns files this is my tnsnames.ora: # tnsnames.ora Network Configuration File: /usr/share/oracle/app/oracle/product/11.2.0/dbhome_1/network/admin/tnsnames.ora # Generated by Oracle configuration tools. LISTENER_SICER = (ADDRESS = (PROTOCOL = TCP)(HOST = myhost.net )(PORT = 1521)) SFERACARTA_CONN = (DESCRIPTION = (ADDRESS = (PROTOCOL = TCP)(HOST = myhost.net )(PORT = 1521)) (CONNECT_DATA = (SERVER = DEDICATED) (SERVICE_NAME = SHELL)) ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.
Re: [sqlalchemy] sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12505: TNS:listener does not currently know of SID given in connect descriptor
On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:43 AM, jose soares wrote: this is my tnsnames.ora: # tnsnames.ora Network Configuration File: /usr/share/oracle/app/oracle/product/11.2.0/dbhome_1/network/admin/tnsnames.ora # Generated by Oracle configuration tools. LISTENER_SICER = (ADDRESS = (PROTOCOL = TCP)(HOST = myhost.net )(PORT = 1521)) SFERACARTA_CONN = (DESCRIPTION = (ADDRESS = (PROTOCOL = TCP)(HOST = myhost.net )(PORT = 1521)) (CONNECT_DATA = (SERVER = DEDICATED) (SERVICE_NAME = SHELL)) ) so if you added (SID = SHELL) underneath the SERVICE_NAME, what happens ? I've used Oracle for well over twelve years and still have no clue what the difference between SERVICE_NAME and SID is. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.
Re: [sqlalchemy] sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12505: TNS:listener does not currently know of SID given in connect descriptor
Michael Bayer wrote: On Dec 19, 2011, at 10:43 AM, jose soares wrote: this is my tnsnames.ora: # tnsnames.ora Network Configuration File: /usr/share/oracle/app/oracle/product/11.2.0/dbhome_1/network/admin/tnsnames.ora # Generated by Oracle configuration tools. LISTENER_SICER = (ADDRESS = (PROTOCOL = TCP)(HOST = myhost.net )(PORT = 1521)) SFERACARTA_CONN = (DESCRIPTION = (ADDRESS = (PROTOCOL = TCP)(HOST = myhost.net )(PORT = 1521)) (CONNECT_DATA = (SERVER = DEDICATED) (SERVICE_NAME = SHELL)) ) so if you added (SID = SHELL) underneath the SERVICE_NAME, what happens ? I've used Oracle for well over twelve years and still have no clue what the difference between SERVICE_NAME and SID is. if I change SERVICE_NAME with SID the error returns: sqlalchemy.exc.DatabaseError: (DatabaseError) ORA-12505: TNS:listener does not currently know of SID given in connect descriptor How SID is different from SERVICE_NAME in oracle tnsnames.ora? In short: SID = the unique name of your DB, Service_name = the alias used when connecting http://stackoverflow.com/questions/43866/how-sid-is-different-from-service-name-in-oracle-tnsnames-ora -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.
[sqlalchemy] help decrypting exception re session management error?
Ok, I know this is my fault but maybe someone can help me know what kind of error I'm producing here, in saving a user, I'm getting the following expection, but only occasionally ( like 10% of the time? ) 15:13:18,160 INFO [xornot.dram.views] EditAction.post() Exception from self.update: Can't attach instance Group at 0xb660d6c; another instance with key (class 'xornot.auth.model.group.Group', (3L,)) is already present in this session. I suspect it as to do with this code which tries to add the everyone group to everyone before update: def pre_update_hook(self): log.info(UserActionMixing.pre_update_hook()) # users can never be removed from the Everyone group everyone = self.model.get_by(Group, name='Everyone') admin = self.model.get_by(Group, name='Admin') if everyone not in self.valid_values['groups']: self.valid_values['groups'].append(everyone) It's a long shot, but does the above info give anyone any idea what kind of thing I might be doing wrong and how to track down something like this? thanks Iain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sqlalchemy+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en.