Re: PVC Track Supports

[Trent Dowler]

Don,

   Are you the fellow that poured concrete in the PVC pipe after it was set on
the deck blocks? If so, do you feel that it was worth your time to do so, or
looking back, would you have skipped that part?
   Also, how did you go about getting the tops of the PVC pipe level to each
other? I'm guessing that you used a transit (or similar equipment) and cut the
PVC pipe as required for each block height.
   The green paint really added to the look of the setup. Good job!

Later,
Trent

Charles Brumbelow wrote:

> Looks like all the digging you have to do is just enough to be sure
> the block is level.  Are the block and pipe bonded in any way?
 

Re: PVC Track Supports

[Charles Brumbelow]

Don - Looks like all the digging you have to do is just enough to be sure
the block is level.  Are the block and pipe bonded in any way?  Thanks,
Charles

> >Hi Dave,
> >
> >I finally got my digital camera back.  Here are a couple of pics of the
PVC
> >track supports I use on Walt's frames.
>
> http://www.45mm.com/sslivesteam/files/pvcsupport1.jpg
>
> and
>
> http://www.45mm.com/sslivesteam/files/pvcsupport2.jpg

 

Re: PVC Track Supports

[Dave Cole]

At 4:37 PM -0400 8/20/01, Don Plasterer wrote:
>Hi Dave,
>
>I finally got my digital camera back.  Here are a couple of pics of the PVC
>track supports I use on Walt's frames.
>
>Sorry for the delay.
>
>Don

i've posted don's pictures at

http://www.45mm.com/sslivesteam/files/pvcsupport1.jpg

and

http://www.45mm.com/sslivesteam/files/pvcsupport2.jpg


\dmc

-- 
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
   Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
   
Editor:   TRELLIS & TRESTLE, the newsletter of the
   Bay Area Garden Railway Society 
   
Webconductor: Pacific Coast Live Steamers 
   
^^^ 

Re: Boilers

[Harry Wade]

At 04:57 PM 8/20/01 EDT, you wrote:
>Harry,
>What would you predict the results would be if the boiler was very hot, 
>almost dry, and water was introduced? This was the apparent reason for the 
>traction engine failure recently resulting in loss of life. Obviously size
is 
>of great importance here.
>Walt & Lunk 

 Yes size is of importance, but with regard to the Ohio case despite
official reports there is still a great deal of speculation and
misinformation about what actually happened there, and there are well
respected authorities on boiler design and behavior as well as historical
empirical data which contends that for reasons having to do with the laws
of thermodynamics overpressuring due to flash steam could not have been
sufficient cause as has been widely reported.  Convenient, but not
conclusive.  I don't speculate one way or another because I don't know
enough about any of the circumstances to say but it is safe to say that
like so many other mishaps a number of factors contributed to the accident
which individually were unlikely to have caused it.
 As we all should know by now the amount of heat needed to turn water
to steam rises as the pressure rises.   At one atmosphere the boiling point
of water is 212 deg F.  At 60 psi it's 307 deg F. (153 C.)In an
overheated or stuck valve condition in one of our boilers the pressure will
reach a point where the burner in incapable of adding enough heat to the
system to turn any more water to steam.  Thus it has reached thermal
equilibrium, in my guess below the critical point of the boiler, and will
sit there and sizzle, as I mentioned in my earlier post, but I don't know
where that equilibrium point is.
To answer your question, I have no prediction because I don't know.  My
guess would be that there would be a momentary increase in pressure,
probably large on a % of WP (working pressure) basis, but essentially then,
nothing.  However while the boiler was being run dry the shell was busy
taking on a great deal of additional heat which when presented with a
little more water could indeed flash into enough pressure to be
destructive.  I guess we're just going to have to try it and see.
 I suppose I should add this qualification, which is that all of this
assumes that fittings, closures, gauges (if included), etc., are not the
source of a failure.   Naturally our fittings, such as water gauges, aren't
intended to withstand these conditions and so could not be considered a
'failure".  Bushings on the other hand must be capable of withstanding as
much if not more pressure than the basic boiler shell.

Cheers,
Harry 

Re: New member

[Trent Dowler]

Geoff,

   Any pics available of yours?
   I hope it goes into production.

Later,
Trent

Geoff Waldorf wrote:

> Well for the last few days I have had a 4 wheel tender behind my
> Iver!
> A prototype which, I understand is nothing like the production Tender, If it
> is produced
 

RE: Boilers

[Geoff Waldorf]

Just a question from the side, how would you get enough water into one of
our type of boilers, I can see possibly how on a traction engine but not our
type, there is no where for the water to lodge! must go ,It's 22.13 here.
best regards
  Geoff Waldorf

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 20 August 2001 21:58
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
Subject: Re: Boilers


Harry,
What would you predict the results would be if the boiler was very hot,
almost dry, and water was introduced? This was the apparent reason for the
traction engine failure recently resulting in loss of life. Obviously size
is
of great importance here.
Keep your steam up!
Walt & Lunk
 

Re: Boilers

[WaltSwartz]

Harry,
What would you predict the results would be if the boiler was very hot, 
almost dry, and water was introduced? This was the apparent reason for the 
traction engine failure recently resulting in loss of life. Obviously size is 
of great importance here.
Keep your steam up!
Walt & Lunk 

RE: New member

[Geoff Waldorf]

Well for the last few days I have had a 4 wheel tender behind my
Iver!
A prototype which, I understand is nothing like the production Tender, If it
is produced, I have to say that pulling it around the track full of bronze
off cuts really has helped to run my engine in, by operating the R/C using
just the trim control I can get Iver down to a crawl!! seriously good fun,
much better on the paintwork too!.
All the best
Geoff Waldorf
Chairman- Cheddar Steam Club  Somerset, England.
 www.cheddar-steam-club.co.uk





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Trent Dowler
Sent: 20 August 2001 21:06
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
Subject: Re: New member


Hello Geoff,

   You seem very knowledgeable of the Iver and perhaps have an inside
connection
of the current Cheddar happenings.
   At one time on the Cheddar site they made mention of the possibility of a
4
wheel tender with hand feed pump for Iver. Is this still being considered,
or in
production?

Later,
Trent
 

Re: New member

[Trent Dowler]

Hello Geoff,

   You seem very knowledgeable of the Iver and perhaps have an inside connection
of the current Cheddar happenings.
   At one time on the Cheddar site they made mention of the possibility of a 4
wheel tender with hand feed pump for Iver. Is this still being considered, or in
production?

Later,
Trent

Geoff Waldorf wrote:

>  Chairman- Cheddar Steam Club  Somerset, England.
> www.cheddar-steam-club.co.uk
 

RE: Boilers

[Harry Wade]

At 06:03 PM 8/20/01 +0100, you wrote:
>In the UK we have to have any boiler with a working pressure of 30psi
>& over, & a capacity of over 1 UK pint tested every two years for our public
>liability insurance,

Small scale live steamers should be aware that in the U.S. many
(but not all) state boiler codes (laws), most of which are based either
entirely or in part upon the A.S.M.E. Standards for Pressure Vessels,
contain clauses which exclude boilers below a certain volume or grate area
from compliance with state regulation or having to be built to "code"
standards.  (A copper boiler cannot be "code" no matter how it's built.)
The majority of these exclusions were negotiated by large scale live steam
clubs to make running miniature (read "model") boilers legal.  (The
A.S.M.E. definition of "miniature boiler" and our meaning of the term are
different.)  Those model boilers which can be built to "code" (steel) are,
those which can't (copper) are in most cases excluded.Based upon
this, garden gauge boilers in the U.S. will almost certainly be excluded
and there is not as yet, as far as I know, a hard connection between
testing and certification and insurability in the U.S.  There will probably
come a time when changes in our society will force more strict and
comprehensive regulation upon us, but for the moment we have our cake and
can eat it too, that is why some of us feel it's important to preserve our
record of 100% safety.

Cheers,
Harry 

Re: Boilers

[Harry Wade]

At 10:55 AM 8/20/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Now for your next act maybe a display showing the results of destructive
>tests performed on  2" x 8" center flue butane boilers.  One that the safety
>didn't work, another that the boiler was run dry
>Jim

Jim,
  As much as I enjoy engaging in unneccessary theatrics, and as much of
a crowd pleaser as it sounds like, I'm afraid the results would be
disappointing (as just now alluded to by Geoff Waldorf).  This same sort of
test has been done here with similar results.  If I were to take the
average Ga1 boiler, say 2" x 8" and 16ga (.062"/1.5mm +/-) copper all
around, fill it to brimming with water, and set to it with an oxy/acetylene
torch, eventually I could create some excitement, but the reality of course
is that we hardly use enough fire to scorch the end of a medium sized
cigar.  COAL fires are a different matter altogether so we need to be
careful not to assume that the behavior and effects of coal fires will eb
the same as spirit or gas firing.
  I feel that in order for test or demonstration of this kind to have
any validity and carry weight it must be realistic in both design and
presentation.  Of course we could demonstrate the dangers inherent in a Ga1
boiler by heating it with a virtually unlimited heat source, such as an
oxy/acetylene torch, but how many of us fire with oxy/acetylene (only one
or two that I know of :-).  My feeling is that as long as the heat source
is limited, such as ours are, the potential for outright failure of an
otherwise sound boiler is limited.  To conduct unrealistic tests and then
publicize the results, such as an exploded Ga1 boiler, exploded only
because it was heated to incandescence with oxy/acetyl, would do us far
more harm than good.   
   A realistic test would be to take a typical Ga1 boiler, filled to
operating level, and using a typical Ga1 burner, either gas or spirits,
fire up, and watch what happens.  My own guess (and this is a guess) . . .
nothing, because the ability of copper to absorb and conduct heat away from
its source exceeds the ability of our burners to add sufficient heat to the
system to bring it to near critical temperature.  Critical temperature
would mean the point at which either the silver solder or the copper would
lose its strength causing a joint failure.   IMHO the temperature of the
vessel and pressure, at a given firing rate, would reach an equalibrium and
beyond that point it would just sit there and sizzle.  I am not prepared to
venture a guess as to what pressures might be developed in such a test.  It
would be interesting to find out.

Cheers,
Harry 

RE: New member

[Geoff Waldorf]

I think I sent a message to the wrong mail address, sorry if it gets
duplicated, this was it

Hi from England,
I was just surfing by & fell over your list. I own an Iver (boiler #172)
After running in I am finding it to be a very willing performer.( It now has
about 5 hours running both static & track) However I think some of your
members may have missed the point of the engine & that is that it is an
entry level garden steam railway engine aimed at new members of the hobby &
for just over £400 including R/C In England is priced  below other engines
with less performance than Iver for sale in this country. On the subject of
performance can you clear up the matter of this item about winning a pulling
comp at Diamondhead or St Louis, where did it win?,& what did it win?, of
course It could be true that if it did win  6th place then it is a winner.
I have seen Iver called 'an oil pig' This is only true if the boiler is
filled over 3/4 full. In this condition on steam up the boiler will prime &
blow all the oil out of the displacement lubricator as will be seen with
water & oil being forced from the funnel/smoke stack all over the outside of
the loco, if you reduce the amount of water in the boiler it will use the
correct amount of oil, run much cleaner & run longer as the water will not
have siphoned out at the start. I hope this will help your members get hours
of enjoyment from their Iver's.
May your boilers never run dry!
Geoff Waldorf
 Chairman- Cheddar Steam Club  Somerset, England.
www.cheddar-steam-club.co.uk
 

RE: Boilers

[Geoff Waldorf]

Dear All,
this sort of test has been carried out by Cheddar Models on one of the
marine boilers which is about the same volume, all that happened was that
the flu tube went phu! & distorted as I understand it, basically no big
deal!. In the UK we have to have any boiler with a working pressure of 30psi
& over, & a capacity of over 1 UK pint tested every two years for our public
liability insurance, That includes the safety valve. I understand that small
steam loco's in the UK don't have a requirement for testing, Also our marine
refillable gas tanks have to be tested with the same frequency which I think
is a nonsense as our marine gas tanks are built like brick privies (or
outside john's to you guys across the pond) I just thought this might be of
some interest to you all.
Best regards
   Geoff Waldorf Chairman, Cheddar Steam Club
www.cheddar-steam-club.co.uk



  May I suggest that you do that particular demo out in the open lot between
the
DH bowling alley and the nightclub across the parking lot. I think I have
plans
during that time and won't be able to attend. 

Later,
Trent

Jim Curry wrote:

> Harry:
>
> Now for your next act maybe a display showing the results of destructive
> tests performed on  2" x 8" center flue butane boilers.  One that the
safety
> didn't work, another that the boiler was run dry

 

Re: Boilers

[Trent Dowler]

Jim,

   I like that idea better now. 
   It would certainly show the importance of a properly built, maintained, and
operated boiler.

Later,
Trent

Jim Curry wrote:

> I didn't mean it as a demo.  I suggested he bring the results of the tests
> for show and tell.
 

Re: Boilers

[Jim Curry]

I didn't mean it as a demo.  I suggested he bring the results of the tests
for show and tell.

Jim
 

Re: Boilers

[Trent Dowler]

  May I suggest that you do that particular demo out in the open lot between the
DH bowling alley and the nightclub across the parking lot. I think I have plans
during that time and won't be able to attend. 

Later,
Trent

Jim Curry wrote:

> Harry:
>
> Now for your next act maybe a display showing the results of destructive
> tests performed on  2" x 8" center flue butane boilers.  One that the safety
> didn't work, another that the boiler was run dry
 

Re: Boilers

[Jim Curry]

Harry:

Now for your next act maybe a display showing the results of destructive
tests performed on  2" x 8" center flue butane boilers.  One that the safety
didn't work, another that the boiler was run dry

Jim
 

Re: Greetings

[SALTYCRABB]

In a message dated 08/20/01 9:17:52 AM Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< The link is broken. >>

I just went right to it -- no problem.  However, on a previous cut and paste 
job about ten minutes ago I accidentally included the trailing parenthesis 
mark which gave me a "page not found message."  Darn computers are SOo 
picky.   8-)

Jim Crabb
Seabrook

RE: Greetings

[David M. Cole]

At 10:16 AM -0400 8/20/01, Charles W. Walters wrote:
>The link is broken.

try it again please ... http://www.45mm.com/events/gte-010630/

... i realized after i posted the url that the reason i hadn't 
publicized it was that i hadn't finished it ... it still has a ways 
to go but while i was working on it i had to kill the directory 
(which is when you tried it, i bet).

\dmc


-- 
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
David M. Cole[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Editor & Publisher: The Cole Papers; NEWSINC.V: (650) 557-9595
Consultant: The Cole Group   F: (650) 557-9696
http://colegroup.com/P.O. Box 719, Pacifica, CA 94044-0719
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+ 

RE: Diamond Head

[Charles W. Walters]

Lots of spending money for all the goodies you can buy!


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Peter Foley
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 10:15 AM
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
Subject: Re: Diamond Head


At 08:09 AM 20/08/01 -0500, Chris Wolcott wrote:
>My wife and I have made plans to go to next year's Diamond Head
>Steamup  What should I bring besides my Ruby, some tools, and fuel?

Benzedrine.

pf



 

RE: Greetings

[Charles W. Walters]

Dave,

The link is broken.

Charles W. Walters, CEO
Twin Lakes Railway
 .-.
 ] [.-.  _ .-.
   ."       """| .--`
  (:--:--:--:--:--:--:-| [___..
   | :  :  :  :  :  :  : [_9_] |'='|.-Twin Lakes-.|
  /|.|___|'-._.-.___.-._.'|
 / ||_.--._.--..--._ |---\'-\-/=\-.-/=\-/'/
/__;^=(==)=(==)(==)=^~^^^ ^^^(-)^(-)^(-)^^
  ~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~^^~~~^~~~^~~~^~~~^~^^~~~^~~~



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 9:50 AM
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
Subject: Re: Greetings


At 9:58 PM -0400 8/18/01, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Nice web site. Like to see some more pics of your Accu C-16 under steam.

roger:

as eric points out, that's harlan barr's engine ... you can see more of it
at

http://www.45mm.com/events/gte-010630/

which, i just realized, i have never publicly acknowledged was available ...

sorry.

\dmc

--
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
   Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
   
Editor:   TRELLIS & TRESTLE, the newsletter of the
   Bay Area Garden Railway Society 
   
Webconductor: Pacific Coast Live Steamers 
   
^^^
 

Re: Diamond Head

[Peter Foley]

At 08:09 AM 20/08/01 -0500, Chris Wolcott wrote:
>My wife and I have made plans to go to next year's Diamond Head 
>Steamup  What should I bring besides my Ruby, some tools, and fuel?

Benzedrine.

pf


 

Re: Diamond Head

[Dave Cole]

At 8:09 AM -0500 8/20/01, Chris Wolcott wrote:
>My wife and I have made plans to go to next year's Diamond Head 
>Steamup.  (MS)  This will be our first time.  How do you get track 
>time, and is there anything I have to get done before I can run ? 
>(Boiler certification, etc.)  What should I bring besides my Ruby, 
>some tools, and fuel?

Chris:

To back up Jim, I'm sure you'll enjoy Diamondhead. My only problems 
there were getting there too late and having to leave too early.

The one thing you should do is to fill out the registration form 
(available at http://www.diamondhead.org/)  and send it to Jerry 
Reshew, so that he can plan for your attendance. Now would be a good 
time to get into the Ramada Inn, if you want the full Diamondhead 
experience.

And Jim is right: you don't even need to bring fuel -- on the 
official steamup days (Jan. 11-13), the fuel is part of your 
registration fee. If you come early (they've been setting up as early 
as the Monday before), Jerry will sell you fuel at wholesale prices.

It's looking better and better that I will be there (this year I'm 
going to have to come early and leave early).

\dmc


-- 
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
   Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
   
Editor:   TRELLIS & TRESTLE, the newsletter of the
   Bay Area Garden Railway Society 
   
Webconductor: Pacific Coast Live Steamers 
   
^^^ 

Boilers and Diamond Head

[Harry Wade]

At 08:09 AM 8/20/01 -0500, you wrote:
>and is there anything I have to get done before I can run?
>(Boiler certification, etc.)

 Hah!  Several years ago at DH, in a Q&A period after a boiler seminar,
I made the statement that eventually this would become necessary for our
own good, and as an indication to the general public (and the courts) that
personal safety is a foremost concern in small scale live steam, and that
we should begin to develop a certification process, or at least be aware
that it would eventually come.  I was nearly chased from the podium.  One
hombre went for his shootin' arn.
This doesn't mean that I advocate required certifications.  Not at all,
and when talking about this subject it should be kept in mind that in the
U.S., in most states, what you do within the confines of private property
with your invited guests is your own business.  It's when we operate in the
presence of the uninformed public (like DH) that the atmosphere changes.
All one has to do is to look around at large scale clubs and associations
in the US, England, and Australia to see that ALL of organized live steam
has adopted programs and requirements to certify and demonstrate that the
well being of the general public is of concern to us.

Regards,
Harry Wade
Nashville, Tn
 

Re: Greetings

[Dave Cole]

At 9:58 PM -0400 8/18/01, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Nice web site. Like to see some more pics of your Accu C-16 under steam.

roger:

as eric points out, that's harlan barr's engine ... you can see more of it at

http://www.45mm.com/events/gte-010630/

which, i just realized, i have never publicly acknowledged was available ...

sorry.

\dmc

-- 
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
   Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
   
Editor:   TRELLIS & TRESTLE, the newsletter of the
   Bay Area Garden Railway Society 
   
Webconductor: Pacific Coast Live Steamers 
   
^^^ 

Re: Diamond Head

[Jim Curry]

Chris:

With the steamup beginning Monday afternoon, for the most part with 3 double
line tracks available getting track time is not a problem.  On Friday, Sat,
Sun there is a sign up board for running from noon till 5:00 in half hour
runs.  These are traditionally the busiest running times during the week.
No need to bring fuel, your registration fee covers the cost of butane,
alcohol, and coal.  Water is also provided.  In years past steam oil was
donated by suppliers but don't count on it.  Jerry also has a supply of rags
for wipe down.  No boiler cert's are required.

Just bring your engine and a grin from ear to ear, you'll think you've died
and gone to heaven.

Jim
 

Diamond Head

[Chris Wolcott]

My wife and I have made plans to go to next year's Diamond Head 
Steamup.  (MS)  This will be our first time.  How do you get track time, 
and is there anything I have to get done before I can run ?  (Boiler 
certification, etc.)  What should I bring besides my Ruby, some tools, 
and fuel?