Re: Lathes for Live (or limey) Steamers
Tony, It weighs a couple hundred pounds and it's bolted to a large table so the best solution is for you to come on over to try it out! Jeff = Anthony Dixon wrote: > Hi Jeffrey, > Good idea on test run. I may take you up on the offer soon i.e. this > weekend?. > Do you plan on bringing it over or should I walk to your place!!!. > Thank you, > Tony D. > At 06:40 PM 10/1/02 -0700, Jeffrey Williams wrote: > >Tony, > > > >I've got a 1942 South Bend 9 x 24 (between centers) in my shop, fully equiped > >except for taper attachment. You're welcome to try it out to see if this fits > >your needs (note to readers: Tony lives in the same town as I do!). > > > >If I was going to get a different lathe, however, I'd go for a used South Bend > >10", which is much stiffer (important for accuracy, particularly with carbide > >cutting tools) and has a cam-type chuck holder, rather than threaded as on the > >9". Also, the taper attachment is much better than that available for the 9" > >and the drive for the apron uses a separate drive, rather than the lead screw. > >The 9" (and perhaps other small lathes) uses the lead screw both for threading > >and for longitudinal feed. The problem is wear - the lead screw wears in the > >2-3" in front of the chuck due to its regular use as a feed drive. Bigger > >(and > >more expensive) lathes have a separate lead screw for threading independent of > >the drive shaft (usally a spline) for feed. > > > >Jeff > > > > > > >
Re: Lathes for Live (or limey) Steamers
Tony et al. Just a bit of clarification an South Bend 9" lathes. There are three versions and a couple of variations. Most 9" SB lathes are either model A's B's or C's The model A is the most desirable as it has back gears for very slow spindle speeds, power longitudinal feed, and power cross feed. It also has a quick change gear box to easily set feed rates and thread pitches. It uses a key way in the lead screw to move the carriage except when you are threading. Thus you have very little lead screw wear. Prices are usually $600 to $ 1500 (used) for a model A and less for the others, depending on wear and accessories. Logan has similar models at similar prices. There is no comparison between quality and rigidity with a new Chinese lathe, they are not even in the same league as the SB and Logan lathes. The 10" models are even better. My son's boss has a 9" Jet and I have a 9" SB. If he could trade his for mine would he? You bet, in a heartbeat and give me some cash to boot. Larry Buerer
Re: Lathes for Live (or limey) Steamers
Hi Jeffrey, Good idea on test run. I may take you up on the offer soon i.e. this weekend?. Do you plan on bringing it over or should I walk to your place!!!. Thank you, Tony D. At 06:40 PM 10/1/02 -0700, Jeffrey Williams wrote: >Tony, > >I've got a 1942 South Bend 9 x 24 (between centers) in my shop, fully equiped >except for taper attachment. You're welcome to try it out to see if this fits >your needs (note to readers: Tony lives in the same town as I do!). > >If I was going to get a different lathe, however, I'd go for a used South Bend >10", which is much stiffer (important for accuracy, particularly with carbide >cutting tools) and has a cam-type chuck holder, rather than threaded as on the >9". Also, the taper attachment is much better than that available for the 9" >and the drive for the apron uses a separate drive, rather than the lead screw. >The 9" (and perhaps other small lathes) uses the lead screw both for threading >and for longitudinal feed. The problem is wear - the lead screw wears in the >2-3" in front of the chuck due to its regular use as a feed drive. Bigger >(and >more expensive) lathes have a separate lead screw for threading independent of >the drive shaft (usally a spline) for feed. > >Jeff > > >
RE: Lathes for Live Steamers
Hi Ken, Thanks for the good honest feedback. I am a little concerned about minor "rework" neccessary to clean up the machine. But at the $750 price range these may be expected, and sounds like you are very happy with the final results. I wonder if the more expensive G9249 at $1895 needs similar rework. (Possibly, as it comes from the same company)?. Ken Taylor and Bill Kuehsel raised some interesting options regarding advantages of looking at the 2nd hand "industrial/commercial market", and trade offs of more bang for the buck. i.e. More versatility, power, speed, size options etc. Also, if a machine needs some minor rework to trim it out, then better off starting with a "versatile" machine with better capability. I also like the optional motor and control tweeks/suggestions used to gain better speed ranges, on both new and older machines. The kicker is in researching the markets, acknowledging your limits, financial or engineering, whether new or used and "cost of quality" and short or long term investment. So there are still a lot of options still open for review, and seemingly many satisfied users, with their personal preferences. Thanks a lot guys for all the feedback. I am also still plugging away at identifying "local" suppliers/agents to arrange a tyre kicking session, and test drive on both new and used equipment. Best Regards, Tony D. At 10:48 AM 10/1/02 -0600, XXYZ wrote: >Anthony, > >I would assume that you are speaking of the popular 7x10 and 9x20 size >lathes. I just purchased a Grizzly 9x19 lathe model G4000. I haven't done a >lot of precision work on it yet, but am very impressed with the overall >quality. I did need to do a little amount of cleanup, as you will need to do >with any Chinese made machine. Mostly, removing the "cosmoline", deburring, >lubrication, adjusting gibs, etc. Many people claim that all of the Asian >made lathes of the same size are the same, I don't think this is so. I >looked at the "identical" lathe from Harbor Freight and found that the >machine was not finished nearly as well as the Grizzly model. The castings >appeared to be from the same manufacture (may have been copies), but looked >very rough and poorly finished. There is also the issue of customer service, >which I have heard is much better from some companies than others. > >I chose the 9x20 because it has more horsepower and weight than the 7x10 >lathes do. It also has a quick change gearbox and a chuck that can be >changed more easily than the 7x10. However to make either lathe truly >functional you will want to do some modifications. The most popular (and >needed) modification on the 9x20 is to change the mounting of the compound. >The supplied clamp is pretty wimpy and making a 4 bolt mounting clamp will >increase the rigidity greatly. I also added a cam lock to the tailstock (no >wrench needed) and a quick change tool post (reduced setup time between tool >changes and gives capacity for additional tools). > >The website mini-lathe.com has lots of info on the quality, capabilities and >modifications needed for both size lathes. > >As far as the speed issue, there is an article in this months "Home Shop >Machinist" about adding a second motor to reduce the spindle speed on a >9x20. I have also seen information regarding the use of a hand cranked >spindle for slow threading operations or changing the motor to a DC drive, >which can use an industrial speed controller. > >Overall I am very happy with my 9x20, I figured that some improvements would >need to be made, but it's still been much less expensive than a "quality" >lathe. And I think much better purchase than a used lathe (either really >expensive or trashed). > >Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Grizzly or HF other than being a >customer > >Ken > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > > Behalf Of Anthony Dixon > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 6:00 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam > > Subject: Lathes for Live Steamers > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > Slightly off Topic. > > I am in the market for a lathe, preferably 19" to 36/40" between > > centres, as I find the 10-12" lengths too confining for working room and > > low on power/versatility/expansion etc. > > But I notice a major problem with all these small lathes offered, > > which seems to break down the offerings into two specific groups:- > > The 12" mini lathes, have "infinitely" electronically controlled > > variable speeds from 0- 2500rpm. Which enables really slow speeds for > > screwcutting, reaming etc. > > But I have heard that the control boards can overheat/burnout when loaded > > with slightly heavy cuts, as opposed to stalling), and some users carry > > spare control boards, just in case. These "cheaper" mini lathes also > > require additional reworking on receipt to get them into good working > > order, even when new?. > > Whereas th
Accucraft website
Accucraft updated its website today. No big changes - updated its "New Releases" page
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
JR May wrote: > > > Does anyone have the Sherline mill? I suspect a lot of flex in the machine. > Is that true? > I have the sherline mill. I've never found it to have any accuracy problems. -- Paul Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/victorianmen -- Owner
Re: Lathes for Live (or limey) Steamers
Tony, I've got a 1942 South Bend 9 x 24 (between centers) in my shop, fully equiped except for taper attachment. You're welcome to try it out to see if this fits your needs (note to readers: Tony lives in the same town as I do!). If I was going to get a different lathe, however, I'd go for a used South Bend 10", which is much stiffer (important for accuracy, particularly with carbide cutting tools) and has a cam-type chuck holder, rather than threaded as on the 9". Also, the taper attachment is much better than that available for the 9" and the drive for the apron uses a separate drive, rather than the lead screw. The 9" (and perhaps other small lathes) uses the lead screw both for threading and for longitudinal feed. The problem is wear - the lead screw wears in the 2-3" in front of the chuck due to its regular use as a feed drive. Bigger (and more expensive) lathes have a separate lead screw for threading independent of the drive shaft (usally a spline) for feed. Jeff
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
In a message dated 10/1/02 1:43:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Does anyone have the Sherline mill? >> I have had one for years, both mill and lathe. Right now it is my only mill. While you can't take great big bites out of metal, any kind, it does the job. I definetly would like something more substantial but I have no room. Bob
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
In a message dated 10/1/02 2:08:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Very happy owner of a 1916 South Bend lathe! >> And me with my 11 x 36 1937 Southbend. I agree Keith! I found mine in one of my client's garage and paid $140! Bob
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
This just proves you do not have to go all the way back to 1916 for a good machine. I'm perfectly happy with my 1917 Seneca Falls Star with factory risers to make it a 12 x 48. Included was a taper attachment, coolant pump, and a mill/drill. That big forward/reverse lever allows you to cut threads without using a thread dial. A newbie talked me out of the mill drill for more than I paid for both machines. I then bought an ENCO knee mill with DRO's and have been happy ever since. It always amazes me what people will do when they hear "Make me an offer." I bought a collection of steam whistles from a fellow. I made an offer and he must have known how much was in my checking account, because he asked for $200.00 less than the balance. He got his asking price and was glad to make a good deal. I later found out that one of the whistles was worth three times what I paid him for all of them, and another one was twice as much as that. He's one of my best friends to this day. We both felt we had made a good deal, and neither one of us knew there were some sleepers there. Keep your steam up! Walt & Lunk
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
Hi Jim, Thanks for the feedback. Which size Grizzly did you buy?. Regards, Tony D. At 03:46 PM 10/1/02 -0400, James Curry wrote: >Tony: > >I too took delivery of a HF mini-lathe. Never made a part, one look told me >it wasn't up to snuff. Thank God they took it back no questions asked. >Bought the Griz lathe and love it for small work. > >Jim >
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
In a message dated 10/1/02 5:08:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << I personally use a 1916 built South Bend lathe (9" swing 16" between centers) without the VFD, and have been very happy with that lathe. With it's back gears, I can cut threads on 3" diam stainless. (not fun, but can be done) or running at top speed, turn parts for gauge one steamers. Jim Curry can testify to it's ability to work to closer tolerences that I am capable of working to! I would much rather have an older machine, that had been well taken care of, by a machinst or amateur, than virtually any new machine on the market >> For my 2 cents, I fully agree with Keith's viewpoint. I have a South Bend 10K, fully equipped, that I picked up used for practically nothing. Yes, it had some wear, but it served me fine for 10 years. Even though it didn't meet factory specs, it was still sufficiently accurate for anything I had to do in my early years. Recently, I had it rebuilt to tool room specs. The total cost, original cost plus rebuild, was probably less than the cost of a comparable new Asian lathe. New, I have a machine that would cost $1000s, if I had to purchase it new. I did the same thing with a Mikron Swiss toolmakers lathe for the watch industry, which I also got for next to nothing. Because it was 3 phase power and it wasn't screw cutting no one was interested. Picked up some spare parts at the same time, e.g., bronze headstock bearings, etc., and had it refurbished last year for a total investment of under 1K. Schaublin and Mikron are of similar quality. Try buying a Schaublin today and you will spend mega bucks. Buy taking the route that Keith recommends, you can get high quality machines at a reasonable price that will last a lifetime. and which will meet your most exacting needs. Shop around, the stuff is out there. It may take some time, but in the end I think you will be better off. Bill Kuehsel Cold Spring, NY
RE: Lathes for Live Steamers
Tony, You're on. I priced a ten-foot length of 2" copper pipe at Home Depot last Sunday. You start making wheels and I'll tell you when to stop. But seriously, coal-fired is what I have in mind, and a basic 4-4-0 or 4-6-0 American-style loco in 1:20 might be big enough and have the right proportions to accommodate a home-made coal-fired boiler. It's only an idea right now. Regards, Steve
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
> Therefore personal experience/recommendations from fellow modelers > also carries a lot of weight towards search and final choice. Tony, Are you absolutely locked into getting a brand new lathe? Since the introduction of CNC machining, there is a glut of machines on the market of Industrial quality with almost no wear, but as they are obsolete as far as industry is concerned, can be had cheaply and will get you a much better lathe for the money. Even the old bugaboo of 3 phase powers is meaningless anymore! The advent of Variable frequency drives allowsa n infinitly variable speed control on older three phase motors with a 220 V. single pahase line in, and a 3 phase output that will give you the full H.P. potential of the original motor! I even know of one gent who took off a perfectly good single phase motor, and replaced it with a 3 phase motor so he could gain the advantages of the VFD! You can jog the motor, a portion of a turn, or run up to full speed. Or, set the running speed, and the motor will automatically slowly accelerate to the set speed. I personally use a 1916 built South Bend lathe (9" swing 16" between centers) without the VFD, and have been very happy with that lathe. With it's back gears, I can cut threads on 3" diam stainless. (not fun, but can be done) or running at top speed, turn parts for gauge one steamers. Jim Curry can testify to it's ability to work to closer tolerences that I am capable of working to! I would much rather have an older machine, that had been well taken care of, by a machinst or amateur, than virtually any new machine on the market. One posting mentioned how happy he was, but then went on to talk of de-burring, gib adjusting, cleaning etc. I bought my lathe, did none of thiose chores, started right from the get go and probably paid half of what a new machine goes for! You just need to be patient, and look in places you don't expect. Tell everyone you know what you are looking for. You never know when someone will say, "Hey, I know where there's one of those gathering dust in my Uncles basement!" I bought a beautiful Derbyshire Model A Instrument makers lathe at a meeting of Clock and Watch collectors! Keith Taylor Very happy owner of a 1916 South Bend lathe!
RE: Lathes for Live Steamers
Hi Steve, Ok. You make the boilers, casings, fine woodwork, and detailing, and I will machine the wheels, crank shaft eccentric for the internal cylinders on your 8-12-4, 4 cylinder compound and all the "round" parts. Now we just need Gary Broader to mill the connecting rods and valve gear. Option- Have you considered a "project" Alleghanney!. Coal fired of course. Should be able to undercut Aster's $20,000 price a little!. Let me know when you plan to start, scale, prints, Bill of Materials, schedule and a cost model. Who is our painting expert?. Regards, Tony D. PS. Will this engine be left hand or right hand drive?. At 06:24 AM 10/1/02 -0700, Shyvers, Steve wrote: >Tony, > >I'm delighted to hear that you are in the market for a lathe. I was worried >about how I was going to get the drivers turned for my "American Project", >since my Taig lathe is on the small side for turning driver castings. It's >great to know that a trained, experienced friend, with lathe, will be >around. > >For my "American Project" I think I'll sketch up, oh, maybe a 8-12-4 so that >when you get finished turning the wheels for me I'll have enough to build >the 4-4-0, the 4-6-0, and the 2-2-4 that so far have eluded my machining >capabilities. > >Thanks in advance. > >Steve > >
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
I know it is a bit small, but how hammered would I get if I said I love my Sherline lathe? I have done nice work on it over the past 25 years or so, both big and small pushing the limits on both ends of the spectrum. Parts are easy to get as well. I have bigger machines, but always seem to come back to the Sherline. The vertical mill attachment is not the greatest, but for vertical mill work, I bolt the Sherline head to my Burke horizontal mill using a face plate bored to fit the ram. I know its crude, but it works so darn nice. Does anyone have the Sherline mill? I suspect a lot of flex in the machine. Is that true? J.R. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: James Curry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 3:46 PM Subject: Re: Lathes for Live Steamers > Tony: > > I too took delivery of a HF mini-lathe. Never made a part, one look told me > it wasn't up to snuff. Thank God they took it back no questions asked. > Bought the Griz lathe and love it for small work. > > Jim > > >
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
this site does some comparisons http://www.mini-lathe,com Clint - Original Message - From: "Anthony Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:19 PM Subject: Re: Lathes for Live Steamers > Hi Paul, > Understand and thank you. > This would be the ideal situation, to see, and compare all the makes > under one roof. Problem is the dealers are spread all over the US. I am > having a hard time finding Machine Tool agents in the Bay Area who carry a > selection, or any smaller lathes, which will enable actual physical > contact. Therefore personal experience/recommendations from fellow modelers > also carries a lot of weight towards search and final choice. > Best regards, > Tony D. > At 08:23 PM 9/30/02 -0400, Paul Anderson wrote: > >Anthony Dixon wrote: > > > > > > > > > Questions regarding both groups:- > > > What do you not like, and would change on your current lathe or trade > > > up for?. > > > > >Before you buy the machine, make sure you get a chance to play with it. > > > > > >-- > >Paul Anderson > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/victorianmen -- Owner >
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
Tony: I too took delivery of a HF mini-lathe. Never made a part, one look told me it wasn't up to snuff. Thank God they took it back no questions asked. Bought the Griz lathe and love it for small work. Jim
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
Hi Paul, Understand and thank you. This would be the ideal situation, to see, and compare all the makes under one roof. Problem is the dealers are spread all over the US. I am having a hard time finding Machine Tool agents in the Bay Area who carry a selection, or any smaller lathes, which will enable actual physical contact. Therefore personal experience/recommendations from fellow modelers also carries a lot of weight towards search and final choice. Best regards, Tony D. At 08:23 PM 9/30/02 -0400, Paul Anderson wrote: >Anthony Dixon wrote: > > > > > > Questions regarding both groups:- > > What do you not like, and would change on your current lathe or trade > > up for?. > > >Before you buy the machine, make sure you get a chance to play with it. > > >-- >Paul Anderson >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/victorianmen -- Owner
Re: American Project
Hi There are multipals of 4-4-0 s in britain ( ie ) the Dee as per Dicks ;;; the LMS and midland railway produced two ( ie ) the 2P and the 4 P these # s represented the duty they were produced , I am presently producing a MR Compound 4-4-0 but with a single cylinder and a 3 to 1 gear drive wich produces 6 power strokes per rev ;;; the loco itself is finished but a tender is now underway . Graham S, - Original Message - From: XXYZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:31 PM Subject: RE: American Project > Vance, and all > > Thanks for the interesting information! > > My intention, and the origin of this thread, was to develop a "project", Dee > type book for an American prototype 4-4-0 (American) in 1/32 scale. (What do > they call a 4-4-0 in Britain?) > > I don't see any reason that there couldn't be an option for a 1:20 or 1:19 > trim (cab, pilot, etc.). I seem to recall seeing a 4-4-0 running on the > Cumbres & Toltec somewhere on the web. It looked for all practical purposes > like any other 4-4-0. Any one have any info? It depend on how big a project > this becomes on whether I decide to add these options (or do anything at > all). I was thinking it would be nice, since I am building the locomotive > for myself and since I am designing it in CAD (3d solids) before I do any > chip making, that it would be only a bit more work, and a big benefit to > those like myself, who really like the Dee, but would prefer an more local > prototype, to put the instructions and drawings into a book. My intention is > to have as few "manufactured" parts as needed to keep in the spirit of the > Dee/Project books. So far wheel castings will be the only parts that are not > currently available in the size/style that is needed. Tender trucks and > other small detail castings appear to be available through the current > trade. > > Thanks to all for the wonderful discussion and suggestions, so far. > > Ken > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > > Behalf Of VR Bass > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:07 AM > > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam > > Subject: Re: American Project > > > > > > > However, I do agree that a 4-4-0 steam engine could easily be converted > > > from 1/32nd std gauge to 1/20.3 NG, just by changing the cab size and > > > adjusting a few details. > > > > This brings up an interesting possibility. Converting standard gauge > > locomotives to narrow gauge (or vice versa) was accomplished by > > moving the > > wheels from outside to inside the frames (or vice versa). Since > > you have to > > remove the wheels and replace the axles, you would want to > > replace the wheels > > with some of the proper type (no. of spokes, no crankpin boss, etc), thus > > answering Art's concern. > > > > Now, we're still talking about a 4-4-0 type, right? There were very few > > outside-frame 4-4-0s made, but they're very interesting locos. > > The 30" gauge > > E. de F. Oeste de Minas in southeastern Brasil, now a preserved > > line, still has > > a couple from Baldwin in operating condition. They're lovely > > little kettles, > > and would be extraordinarily charming as scale steamers. They also have > > outside-frame 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s, any of which I would love to > > have in small- > > scale live steam. > > > > But I have noticed that some people don't care for exotic > > prototypes, even if > > built in Philadelphia using US practices. So, you may not find > > the notion of > > an outside-frame 4-4-0 appealing, in which case I think this idea > > is not going > > to be very productive. You can't just bang the wheels closer > > together on the > > axles -- there are frames and valve gear in between which will > > hamper that > > operation. > > > > So, back to the original topic: what are the impediments to doing > > a standard > > gauge, "project" type 4-4-0? Just the willingness to undertake > > it, I would > > say. The G1MRA Project Book should give most of the general construction > > methods, and it would be up to you to modify them to suit the > > prototype. Not a > > screw-together kit, but doable. > > > > regards, > > -vance- > > > > Vance Bass > > Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA > > Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass > > > > >
RE: American Project
Vance, and all Thanks for the interesting information! My intention, and the origin of this thread, was to develop a "project", Dee type book for an American prototype 4-4-0 (American) in 1/32 scale. (What do they call a 4-4-0 in Britain?) I don't see any reason that there couldn't be an option for a 1:20 or 1:19 trim (cab, pilot, etc.). I seem to recall seeing a 4-4-0 running on the Cumbres & Toltec somewhere on the web. It looked for all practical purposes like any other 4-4-0. Any one have any info? It depend on how big a project this becomes on whether I decide to add these options (or do anything at all). I was thinking it would be nice, since I am building the locomotive for myself and since I am designing it in CAD (3d solids) before I do any chip making, that it would be only a bit more work, and a big benefit to those like myself, who really like the Dee, but would prefer an more local prototype, to put the instructions and drawings into a book. My intention is to have as few "manufactured" parts as needed to keep in the spirit of the Dee/Project books. So far wheel castings will be the only parts that are not currently available in the size/style that is needed. Tender trucks and other small detail castings appear to be available through the current trade. Thanks to all for the wonderful discussion and suggestions, so far. Ken > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf Of VR Bass > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:07 AM > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam > Subject: Re: American Project > > > > However, I do agree that a 4-4-0 steam engine could easily be converted > > from 1/32nd std gauge to 1/20.3 NG, just by changing the cab size and > > adjusting a few details. > > This brings up an interesting possibility. Converting standard gauge > locomotives to narrow gauge (or vice versa) was accomplished by > moving the > wheels from outside to inside the frames (or vice versa). Since > you have to > remove the wheels and replace the axles, you would want to > replace the wheels > with some of the proper type (no. of spokes, no crankpin boss, etc), thus > answering Art's concern. > > Now, we're still talking about a 4-4-0 type, right? There were very few > outside-frame 4-4-0s made, but they're very interesting locos. > The 30" gauge > E. de F. Oeste de Minas in southeastern Brasil, now a preserved > line, still has > a couple from Baldwin in operating condition. They're lovely > little kettles, > and would be extraordinarily charming as scale steamers. They also have > outside-frame 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s, any of which I would love to > have in small- > scale live steam. > > But I have noticed that some people don't care for exotic > prototypes, even if > built in Philadelphia using US practices. So, you may not find > the notion of > an outside-frame 4-4-0 appealing, in which case I think this idea > is not going > to be very productive. You can't just bang the wheels closer > together on the > axles -- there are frames and valve gear in between which will > hamper that > operation. > > So, back to the original topic: what are the impediments to doing > a standard > gauge, "project" type 4-4-0? Just the willingness to undertake > it, I would > say. The G1MRA Project Book should give most of the general construction > methods, and it would be up to you to modify them to suit the > prototype. Not a > screw-together kit, but doable. > > regards, > -vance- > > Vance Bass > Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA > Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass > >
Re: American Project
> However, I do agree that a 4-4-0 steam engine could easily be converted > from 1/32nd std gauge to 1/20.3 NG, just by changing the cab size and > adjusting a few details. This brings up an interesting possibility. Converting standard gauge locomotives to narrow gauge (or vice versa) was accomplished by moving the wheels from outside to inside the frames (or vice versa). Since you have to remove the wheels and replace the axles, you would want to replace the wheels with some of the proper type (no. of spokes, no crankpin boss, etc), thus answering Art's concern. Now, we're still talking about a 4-4-0 type, right? There were very few outside-frame 4-4-0s made, but they're very interesting locos. The 30" gauge E. de F. Oeste de Minas in southeastern Brasil, now a preserved line, still has a couple from Baldwin in operating condition. They're lovely little kettles, and would be extraordinarily charming as scale steamers. They also have outside-frame 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s, any of which I would love to have in small- scale live steam. But I have noticed that some people don't care for exotic prototypes, even if built in Philadelphia using US practices. So, you may not find the notion of an outside-frame 4-4-0 appealing, in which case I think this idea is not going to be very productive. You can't just bang the wheels closer together on the axles -- there are frames and valve gear in between which will hamper that operation. So, back to the original topic: what are the impediments to doing a standard gauge, "project" type 4-4-0? Just the willingness to undertake it, I would say. The G1MRA Project Book should give most of the general construction methods, and it would be up to you to modify them to suit the prototype. Not a screw-together kit, but doable. regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
RE: Lathes for Live Steamers
Anthony, I would assume that you are speaking of the popular 7x10 and 9x20 size lathes. I just purchased a Grizzly 9x19 lathe model G4000. I haven't done a lot of precision work on it yet, but am very impressed with the overall quality. I did need to do a little amount of cleanup, as you will need to do with any Chinese made machine. Mostly, removing the "cosmoline", deburring, lubrication, adjusting gibs, etc. Many people claim that all of the Asian made lathes of the same size are the same, I don't think this is so. I looked at the "identical" lathe from Harbor Freight and found that the machine was not finished nearly as well as the Grizzly model. The castings appeared to be from the same manufacture (may have been copies), but looked very rough and poorly finished. There is also the issue of customer service, which I have heard is much better from some companies than others. I chose the 9x20 because it has more horsepower and weight than the 7x10 lathes do. It also has a quick change gearbox and a chuck that can be changed more easily than the 7x10. However to make either lathe truly functional you will want to do some modifications. The most popular (and needed) modification on the 9x20 is to change the mounting of the compound. The supplied clamp is pretty wimpy and making a 4 bolt mounting clamp will increase the rigidity greatly. I also added a cam lock to the tailstock (no wrench needed) and a quick change tool post (reduced setup time between tool changes and gives capacity for additional tools). The website mini-lathe.com has lots of info on the quality, capabilities and modifications needed for both size lathes. As far as the speed issue, there is an article in this months "Home Shop Machinist" about adding a second motor to reduce the spindle speed on a 9x20. I have also seen information regarding the use of a hand cranked spindle for slow threading operations or changing the motor to a DC drive, which can use an industrial speed controller. Overall I am very happy with my 9x20, I figured that some improvements would need to be made, but it's still been much less expensive than a "quality" lathe. And I think much better purchase than a used lathe (either really expensive or trashed). Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Grizzly or HF other than being a customer Ken > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf Of Anthony Dixon > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 6:00 PM > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam > Subject: Lathes for Live Steamers > > > Hi Guys, > Slightly off Topic. > I am in the market for a lathe, preferably 19" to 36/40" between > centres, as I find the 10-12" lengths too confining for working room and > low on power/versatility/expansion etc. > But I notice a major problem with all these small lathes offered, > which seems to break down the offerings into two specific groups:- > The 12" mini lathes, have "infinitely" electronically controlled > variable speeds from 0- 2500rpm. Which enables really slow speeds for > screwcutting, reaming etc. > But I have heard that the control boards can overheat/burnout when loaded > with slightly heavy cuts, as opposed to stalling), and some users carry > spare control boards, just in case. These "cheaper" mini lathes also > require additional reworking on receipt to get them into good working > order, even when new?. > Whereas the larger 19" plus, mechanically adjustable speed lathes > (belt or geared driven), although more powerful for taking heavier cuts, > have a typical speed range from approx 2000rpm down to 130rpm. > The 130 rpm > minimum being far to high for screw cutting, reaming etc. > Some lathes in the $2500 price range have a 70rpm minimum speed, > which is ok for running along the od of a shaft, but still too high if > running up to a shoulder, even with an undercut. i.e need lightning > reflexes to back out without hitting the shoulder and breaking the tool. > It seems that one has to forgo the higher power and versatility for > very slow speeds, on the mini lathes, and the slow speed ranges > for higher > power on the 19" plus lathes. > Which causes the 19" plus lathes to have less anticipated versatily than > expected. > It is only when one gets into the $4,000 plus lathes that the lower > ranges become available.And I know follows the axiom, you get > what you pay for. > > Questions:- 12" Group. > I would be interested in hearing from the 12" group, "what they > consider a heavy cut before burning out a control board, and how > often are > replacements needed at what cost. > Also typical screwcutting/ reaming applications used on > these lathes. > > 19" plus Group:- Preferably under $2,000 costs. > Do any of these lathes offered come with capability of a "back gear > low speed range?. > (I would have thought the builders would have stated this in their > ads if so). > H
Re: American Project
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:56 PM Subject: Re: American Project > In a message dated Tue, 1 Oct 2002 2:01:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > However, I do agree that a 4-4-0 steam engine could easily be converted > from 1/32nd std gauge to 1/20.3 NG, just by changing the cab size and adjusting a few details. -Yes, like chopping out a lot of the wheel spokes !!! Art Walker
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
To Steve, I have a lot of experience in machine tools of all sorts and I would like to offer you a suggestion about machining pieces that fit on a machine but that are actually beyond the capacity of the machine. The trick is to be able to slow down the RPM of the rotating object sufficiently so the cutting tool doesn't "burn" up. The work piece has to be held solidly. Then take very light cuts, like .002 or .003" when turning or milling and use a light feed like the cut in the case of a very light lathe. Drilling a hole with a lathe is a bit different. You should start out with the proper speed as the dis/un-balance of the piece will allow. In the case of a 1/2" bore you should start out with a center drill to mark the center, then use a 3/16" drill, then a drill 1/32" larger, and keep increasing the bit's diameter until you get the diameter you want leaving maybe .010" or .015" for the finishing 2 cuts that should be made with a small boring bar. If the bore is a cylinder for a piston you should leave the last .001" or .002" to be sized with a reamer. Cutting oil should be used with steels and aluminums. Brass and bronze are better machined dry. Usually cast iron can be machined dry but cutting oil is required when tapping. I hope this helps you tackle a job you thought you couldn't do. Arthur---Mexico - Original Message - From: "Shyvers, Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 8:24 AM Subject: RE: Lathes for Live Steamers > Tony, > > I'm delighted to hear that you are in the market for a lathe. I was worried > about how I was going to get the drivers turned for my "American Project", > since my Taig lathe is on the small side for turning driver castings. It's > great to know that a trained, experienced friend, with lathe, will be > around. > > For my "American Project" I think I'll sketch up, oh, maybe a 8-12-4 so that > when you get finished turning the wheels for me I'll have enough to build > the 4-4-0, the 4-6-0, and the 2-2-4 that so far have eluded my machining > capabilities. > > Thanks in advance. > > Steve > > >
RE: American Project
With respect to Pete's comments about 1:20 loco availability, I would welcome a 4-4-0 project that had the potential to be converted to 1:20 narrow gauge. I have eyed Aster's C&S 2-6-0 thinking that it would make a nice little 1:20 loco conversion because the wheels, cylinders, valves, and valve gear are all there, but the Aster price is a bit too much for me to spend for a project starting point. If the "American Project" were to offer a tested functional design, basic machining and fabrication guidelines, and a source for the unique parts and castings, then I would definitely be interested. Steve
Re: American Project
In a message dated Tue, 1 Oct 2002 2:01:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Regarding Pete's suggestion: because 1:20.3 is pretty well > supported right now, there's not nearly as much need to develop > something else in that scale. I thought I was actually addrssing the issue of what such a 'project' could pull - there aren't many 1/32nd freight cars or coaches available. And there are not many 1:20.3 steam engines. Acccucraft only make 3 or 4 types (ccounting Ruby variants as 1!) But there are lots of cars and coaches of different eras available to make up a train. However, I do agree that a 4-4-0 steam engine could easily be converted from 1/32nd std gauge to 1/20.3 NG, just by changing the cab size and adjusting a few details. Pete
RE: Lathes for Live Steamers
Tony, I'm delighted to hear that you are in the market for a lathe. I was worried about how I was going to get the drivers turned for my "American Project", since my Taig lathe is on the small side for turning driver castings. It's great to know that a trained, experienced friend, with lathe, will be around. For my "American Project" I think I'll sketch up, oh, maybe a 8-12-4 so that when you get finished turning the wheels for me I'll have enough to build the 4-4-0, the 4-6-0, and the 2-2-4 that so far have eluded my machining capabilities. Thanks in advance. Steve
