Re: (No subject)

[Michael Martin]

Impressive macro work with that new camera Dave!  Thanks for sharing.

Mike 

Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[Dave Cole]

At 8:53 PM -0500 3/3/03, mdenning wrote:
what 'should' it have read!?!?!
Michael
Florida
USA
Iron Nut
 >
 > > I think this is a more atheistic solution
 >
i think he was going for aesthetic (relating to the beauty of 
something, usually a work of art), but he missed and the 
spell-checker gave him atheistic (relating to one who does not 
believe in God or gods).

\dmc

--
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
  Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
  
ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 17-20, 2003
For more information, visit the web site at 
^^^ 

Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[mdenning]

what 'should' it have read!?!?!
Michael 
Florida
USA
Iron Nut

- Original Message - 
From: "xxyz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: RE: Steam domes, bushes & glasses


> Apparently, I was using my "Moron's Dictionary" today. Sorry
> 
> Ken
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 2:15 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
> Subject: RE: Steam domes, bushes & glasses
> 
> 
> > I think this is a more atheistic solution 
> 
> More advice: turn off the spell checker in your e-mail program (or 
> consult your dictionary more :-).
> 
> regards,
>   -vance-
> 
> Vance Bass
> Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
> Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
>  

Re: G1MRA Newsletter and Journal #196

[mart.towers]

I checked today with our printers & distributers.

G1MRA NL&J #196 went down the chute on 15 January.
So, transpondies, for those of you on surface delivery, it may be a few days
yet

Art Walker
Editor


- Original Message -
From: "James Curry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: G1MRA Newsletter and Journal #196


> Hi Guys:
>
> I made some inquiries.  I don't yet know when the magazines were put in
the
> mail in England however, checking on the Royal Mail's website they quote
an
> 8 weeks window for 'outside Europe' surface deliveries.
>
> Which means a 1-1-03 mailing is due this week.  A 1-15 mailing isn't due
> yet.
>
> Jim
>
>

 

Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[Peter Trounce]

My understanding is that the stinken tube is made from brass sheet and the
seam is soft soldered and needs to be kept coolish, hence the pigtail to
keep the gauge isolated from the heat.
Since the pressure gauge is pretty important it's placed close to the
engineer's eyeballs, so the pigtail needs to go into the boiler somewhere
nearby to avoid a vulnerable long floppy tube.
If the gauge pops, you don't want to have to hunt around your boot-tops for
the shutoff valve.
So there is a lot of logic in this.
The pressure at the mudring is only maybe 3-4 psi more than the steam space.
The pigtail tube is made curly so that some steam condenses and water stays
in the curly bit so that steam stays away from the soft-soldered Bourdon .
But you (in our sizes) can take pressure from anywhere, except I would stay
away from sludgy areas where the connection might get plugged perhaps.
Cheers,
Peter Trounce.
Toronto.

- Original Message -
From: "JR May" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses


> Hmmm, again from the prototype world, the pressure gauge is generally
taken
> off a high spot in the boiler.  My experience has been off the high side
of
> the barrel with a pig tail and shut off valve.  This would measure the
> actual STEAM pressure of the boiler.
>
> In taking my boiler license tests here in New Jersey, one question which
is
> asked is where is the greatest pressure in a boiler?  Its at the lowest
> point in the mud ring where the pressure of the boiler and the WEIGHT of
the
> water combine to give you a higher pressure.  I suppose that if you figure
> various water levels as conditions change while running  that the pressure
> at the bottom of the boiler may vary.  I suppose we could burn up a lot of
> electrons on this issue alone.
>
> Also, at the bottom of the boiler there are very few valves.  In my mind,
> you want as few things as possible to go wrong down that low as if you
loose
> a valve down there, you loose your water and can expose your crown sheet.
>
> I would assume too that the water at the low point in the boiler is pretty
> freakin' hot.  At 150 psi I think the boiling temperature is around 400
> degrees (or something along those lines).  The pig tail I thought was to
> protect the gauge from the heat of the steam so that pressure causes the
> little tube (what is the name of that damn tube) to move and not heat
> expansion.
>
> At least in my mind, the pressure gauge needs to stay high, at least from
a
> full size stand point.
>
> Now I'm going to have to go home tonight and look up the name of that
> stinken tube inside the gauge.
>
> Sleepless in Jersey
>
>  Original Message -
> From: Mike Chaney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 3:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses
>
>
> > Ken asked Harry:-
> >
> >
> > >Could the bottom water glass bush in the backhead also service the
> > > pressure gauge?
> >
> > ...and Harry replied:-
> >
> > >It could but you don't want it to.  The gauge is best taken off
a
> > > high (dry) bush, or the fountain. 
> >
> > . and Ken got confused:-
> >
> > > I am a bit confused by this. On one hand it makes sense to take the
> pressure
> > > of the steam directly. But, aren't gauges required to be separated
from
> the
> > > steam through the use of a siphon? If the gauge needs to "read water"
> then
> > > why not take the pressure from the "wet" part of the boiler..
> >
> > Good thinking, Ken, "but we've always done it that way".
> >
> > When I first started in this steam lark, I was advised to put some steam
> oil in
> > the syphon to keep the steam away from the pressure gauge.  I keep
> forgetting to
> > do it, of course, but I don't think I've lost a pressure gauge as a
> result.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

 

Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[Keith Taylor]

The pig tail I thought was to
> protect the gauge from the heat of the steam so that pressure causes
the
> little tube (what is the name of that damn tube) to move and not heat
> expansion.


J.R.
It is the Bourdon tube.
Keith Taylor

 

Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[Harry Wade]

At 04:12 PM 3/3/03 -0500, you wrote:
>Hmmm, again from the prototype world, the pressure gauge is generally
taken off a high spot in the boiler. (snip)

  Couldn't have said it better myself.

>I am a bit confused by this.

 As Mike says, we've always done it that way.  But just to make
sure I checked our local preserved locomotives, . . . all gauges taken from
the fountain.  I then checked through a half-dozen or so designs in Live
Steam Magazine, . . . all gauges taken from the fountain or a top mounted
bush.  Next I checked a dozen or so locomotive and boiler articles in Model
Engineer, and likewise four or five in Engineering in Miniature, and all of
them locate the gauges off the fountain or a bush in the steam space.  So
for me it's monkey see monkey do.
 The siphon is another monkey see monkey do.  In full size practice
the siphon was intended to create a place for a plug of condensation which
sheilds the gauge innards from contact with live steam.  In our scales the
steam temperature isn't nearly so much a danger to the gauge but we do
siphons anyway.

Regards,
Harry
 

RE: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[xxyz]

Apparently, I was using my "Moron's Dictionary" today. Sorry

Ken

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 2:15 PM
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
Subject: RE: Steam domes, bushes & glasses


> I think this is a more atheistic solution 

More advice: turn off the spell checker in your e-mail program (or 
consult your dictionary more :-).

regards,
  -vance-

Vance Bass
Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
  

RE: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[xxyz]

Hey all,

O.K. Not so confused now. I did a bit of digging and the reason to connect
to the steam space is not because "I said so" or as Mike said "but we've
always done it that way". But, because it's required by the National Boiler
Code as far as full size boilers are concerned, as quoted below.

Of course, the code doesn't directly apply to us as our boilers are usually
exempted because they are so small. This is why we don't need to have our
boilers tested by the state authorities (as far as I know). I also believe
it allows some fudging of the design because they don't need to meet the
"letter of the law". Obviously, safety is still of the utmost importance.

The liquid (usually water) in the siphon is to prevent live steam from
contacting the bourdon tube in the gauge possibly damaging it mainly due to
the high temperature of the steam. The siphon seems to be a temperature
buffer.

quote> §5421. Pressure Gages
A. Each boiler shall have a pressure gage so located that it is easily
readable. The pressure gage shall be
installed so that it shall at all times indicate the pressure in the boiler.
Each steam boiler shall have the pressure gage
connected to the steam space or to the water column or its steam connection
A valve or cock may be located near the
boiler providing it is locked or sealed in the open position. No other
shutoff valves shall be located between the
gage and the boiler. The pipe connection shall be of ample size and arranged
so that it maybe cleared by blowing
out. For a steam boiler the gage or connection shall contain a siphon or
equivalent device which will develop and
maintain a water seal that will prevent steam from entering the gage tube.
Pressure gage connections shall be
suitable for the maximum allowable working pressure and temperature but, if
the temperature exceeds 406€ F, brass
or copper pipe or tubing shall not be used. The connections to the boiler,
except the siphon, if used, shall not be less
than ¼ inch inside the diameter standard pipe size but where steel or
wrought iron pipe or tubing is used they shall
not be less than ½ inch. The minimum size of a siphon, if used, shall be ¼
inch inside diameter. The dial of the
pressure gage shall be graduated to approximately double the pressure at
which the safety valve is set, but in no case
to less than one and 1½ times this pressure.

Hope this is some interest.


Ken




 

Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[JR May]

Hmmm, again from the prototype world, the pressure gauge is generally taken
off a high spot in the boiler.  My experience has been off the high side of
the barrel with a pig tail and shut off valve.  This would measure the
actual STEAM pressure of the boiler.

In taking my boiler license tests here in New Jersey, one question which is
asked is where is the greatest pressure in a boiler?  Its at the lowest
point in the mud ring where the pressure of the boiler and the WEIGHT of the
water combine to give you a higher pressure.  I suppose that if you figure
various water levels as conditions change while running  that the pressure
at the bottom of the boiler may vary.  I suppose we could burn up a lot of
electrons on this issue alone.

Also, at the bottom of the boiler there are very few valves.  In my mind,
you want as few things as possible to go wrong down that low as if you loose
a valve down there, you loose your water and can expose your crown sheet.

I would assume too that the water at the low point in the boiler is pretty
freakin' hot.  At 150 psi I think the boiling temperature is around 400
degrees (or something along those lines).  The pig tail I thought was to
protect the gauge from the heat of the steam so that pressure causes the
little tube (what is the name of that damn tube) to move and not heat
expansion.

At least in my mind, the pressure gauge needs to stay high, at least from a
full size stand point.

Now I'm going to have to go home tonight and look up the name of that
stinken tube inside the gauge.

Sleepless in Jersey

 Original Message -
From: Mike Chaney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses


> Ken asked Harry:-
>
>
> >Could the bottom water glass bush in the backhead also service the
> > pressure gauge?
>
> ...and Harry replied:-
>
> >It could but you don't want it to.  The gauge is best taken off a
> > high (dry) bush, or the fountain. 
>
> . and Ken got confused:-
>
> > I am a bit confused by this. On one hand it makes sense to take the
pressure
> > of the steam directly. But, aren't gauges required to be separated from
the
> > steam through the use of a siphon? If the gauge needs to "read water"
then
> > why not take the pressure from the "wet" part of the boiler..
>
> Good thinking, Ken, "but we've always done it that way".
>
> When I first started in this steam lark, I was advised to put some steam
oil in
> the syphon to keep the steam away from the pressure gauge.  I keep
forgetting to
> do it, of course, but I don't think I've lost a pressure gauge as a
result.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
 

Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[Keith Taylor]

> > I think this is a more atheistic solution 
> 
> More advice: turn off the spell checker in your e-mail program (or 
> consult your dictionary more :-).
> 
Vance,
I take it you don't think this is a religious problem?

Keith   ( chuckling away up in Maine!)
 

RE: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[vrbass]

> I think this is a more atheistic solution 

More advice: turn off the spell checker in your e-mail program (or 
consult your dictionary more :-).

regards,
  -vance-

Vance Bass
Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
 

Re: (No subject)

[Dave Cole]

this reminds me ...

here are some pix i made on saturday at dr. dan liebowitz' in woodside, calif.

http://www.p-c-l-s.com/steamups/030301-liebowitz/

though i concentrated on jeff williams' k-27, there were at least a 
dozen steamers there and quite a few locos.

the long rake of cars of jeff's loco was courtesy of steve heselton, 
who loaned a few of his to supplement jeff's consist.

other -- better -- photographers were there and will probably post too.

thanks dan for a wonderful day.

\dmc

At 12:03 PM -0800 3/3/03, Anthony Dixon wrote:
Hi Dan,
Many thanks for your steamup event and hospitality of yourself 
and Rusty last Saturday.
We had a great time, especially running on the new modified top 
loop. I will try to do more laps next time, so you can witness the 
event.
I am sure everyone had some good running time and thoroughly 
enjoyed the event.
Very Best Regards,
Tony and Pat Dixon


--
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
  Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
  
ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 17-20, 2003
For more information, visit the web site at 
^^^ 

(No subject)

[Anthony Dixon]

Hi Dan,
Many thanks for your steamup event and hospitality of yourself and 
Rusty last Saturday.
We had a great time, especially running on the new modified top loop. I 
will try to do more laps next time, so you can witness the event.
I am sure everyone had some good running time and thoroughly enjoyed 
the event.
Very Best Regards,
Tony and Pat Dixon

Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[Mike Chaney]

Ken asked Harry:-


>Could the bottom water glass bush in the backhead also service the
> pressure gauge?

...and Harry replied:-

>It could but you don't want it to.  The gauge is best taken off a
> high (dry) bush, or the fountain. 

. and Ken got confused:-

> I am a bit confused by this. On one hand it makes sense to take the pressure
> of the steam directly. But, aren't gauges required to be separated from the
> steam through the use of a siphon? If the gauge needs to "read water" then
> why not take the pressure from the "wet" part of the boiler..

Good thinking, Ken, "but we've always done it that way".

When I first started in this steam lark, I was advised to put some steam oil in
the syphon to keep the steam away from the pressure gauge.  I keep forgetting to
do it, of course, but I don't think I've lost a pressure gauge as a result.

Mike

 

RE: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[xxyz]

Harry,

Thanks for the feedback (and Thanks from everyone else as well). This, of
course leads another question.


Could the bottom water glass bush in the backhead also service the
pressure gauge?

   It could but you don't want it to.  The gauge is best taken off a
high (dry) bush, or the fountain. 

I am a bit confused by this. On one hand it makes sense to take the pressure
of the steam directly. But, aren't gauges required to be separated from the
steam through the use of a siphon? If the gauge needs to "read water" then
why not take the pressure from the "wet" part of the boiler. My reference
material is thin in this area, so I may be missing something. The Dee book
shows the pressure gauge bush located below the top of the firebox and I
would assume that this means below water level as well?


   Do your preliminary sheet layout and rolling using shirt
cardboard.
It's much less expensive than copper. 

The really cool thing is that the boiler is drawn as a 3D solid model and I
can use the software to "flatten" the conical course of the boiler. I can
accurately plot this onto paper and use it as a template to cut the copper.
I will probably do a mock-up in paper before making chips, just to be sure.
I know the CAD software is accurate, I'm more worried about my cutting,
shaping and soldering skills it's been awhile and there probably really
rusty (corroded?).

I like Vance's idea regarding a stepped boiler with the tapered course as a
"false wrapper". I think this is a more atheistic solution than a 2"
straight boiler shell. I plan on using this idea as plan B if the tapered
course is too difficult to form. It would also be a good option for those
that don't want to deal with forming the taper, if this design becomes
published.

I also like Art's suggestion about locating the formed backhead using pips
before brazing. It looks like the flat backplate filet soldered onto the
boiler shell is plenty strong and I would think preferable to forming from a
work standpoint. Is it bad practice to cut the plate oversized, solder, then
finish file the overlapping edge of the plate to match the contour of the
boiler shell? This is how I built silver soldered boxes for jewelry use. I
would assume that if the joint isn't filed into it should be full strength.


Ken

 

Re: Alisan plume?

[Geoff Spenceley]

Of Course,

Geoff




Hi Gary et al.
>
>I would differ n the point that a Meths (WICK) fire is a constant fire -
>It is definately not so.  The meths fire does have a maximum firing rate
>(Heat Output), when the wicks are delivering the maximum flow rate of
>spirit to  the area where it is vapourised at or near the top of the wick
>tube  This is controlled by the capilliary attraction of the meths in the
>spaces  between wick fibres and this  also varies by the amount  (ie rate)
>by which  meths is vapourised from the top of the wicks.   A wick will run
>at much  lower flow rates than this maximum if the draft is less, ie the
>loco is not  working so hard or blower is off.   The spirit does behave
>with the same   sort of self regulation as a coal fire based on the draft
>from the  exhaust.  However the range over which it will do this is less
>than that of  a coal fire, but still emphatically usable.

>Note all of the above refers specifically to internally fired boilers -
>"Smithies", loco type, the various JvR designs, the "Project " type etc.,
>fired by wick type burners only.  It does not apply to pot boilers or
>other externally fired types eg the Aster BR 86, Mamod etc.  Nor does it
>apply to  vapourising type spirit burners which are much more akin to gas
>(poker or  radiant) fired boilers ie a constant fire.


>Jim Gregg.

>


 

Re: Steam domes, backhead bushes & sight glasses - Long

[Paul Trevaskis]

>  The bush (or an insert into the
> bush) is a cup with holes in the bottom to allow steam up into the dome
> while minimizing water uptake. The cup also has the steam take off pipe
> coming up through it's center and protruding into the dome. The filling of
> the boiler would be done by adding water to the cup part of the bush and
> then the dome would be screwed on sealing the boiler. If this doesn't make
> sense, I could post a picture.

Ken
Something to think about, if these holes are too small you will not be able to
fill the boiler or it will take forever.
1/8 might be too small.
Paul
 

Re: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

[mart.towers]

- Original Message -
From: "Harry Wade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 3:23 AM
Subject: Steam domes, bushes & glasses

> whereas a flanged
> plate will hold itself in place.

- generaally so, but as my plate forming is perhaps less precise than
Harry's, I have had plates shift a little when heating up. Probably of no
structural significance but unsightly.
Therefore, before placing the plate I stick a wooden rolling pin ex-kitchen
into the boiler tube & put in a ring of three or four pips from the outside
with a BLUNTED centre pop to ensure that the plate goes where it is meant to
go & doesn't shift when heat is applied when the barrel is mounted
vertically.

Art Walker