RE: Kerosene fueling
Hi, Thanks for the further input. I think that the next step will be to get a small camping stove and put a liter of water in a small pressure vessel and time how long it takes to boil with different fuels, and measure the amount of fuel used. Should I be feeling extra enthusiastic I could also get a similar sizes gas stove, and try the same thing out with gas. It would of course be a propane/butane mix (of probably unspecified proportions) however... Candle power could also be tested, however burning wood or coal (or goose fat for that matter) is probably not a great idea in the apartment as, if nothing else, I am sure the smoke alarm will be triggered (it works well enough for burnt toast!). There are two stages of boiling water though. First there is the raising the temperature to c.100 degrees Centigrade, then there is the actual conversion of the water liquid to a gas vapor. The latter apparently requires a lot more energy. It is this latent energy (as heat) that is stored in gaseous H2O that differentiates it from compressed air at a similar pressure. This is probably why flash steam, whilst great in principle, is a lot harder to implement satisfactorily in real life. This type of physics isn't my thing, so I am a bit hazy about the maths. However I have been told that 100 grams of water requires about 230 kilo-joules at 100% heat transfer efficiency to turn it into steam. Actual boiler efficiencies would be rather less. My guess is perhaps 20% maximum, or am I being outrageously optimistic? Any ideas, facts or figures on this one? Best wishes, Susan. P.S. Sorry for the use of SI units in an American-centric list, but I don't know the imperial ones. I am having a hard enough time getting used to decimal and fractional inches for drawing instead of the millimeters which I am used to. And I am old enough to remember using British pre decimal LSD (Pounds, Shillings and Pence) money! S.
RE: Kerosene fueling
Thanks for the info Steve, The drip feed on the logging loco was smoky--except when the builder fired it-he had it down to a fine art! Geoff. Thanks SteveSusan, Geoff, Walt and the List: > >My sailboat had a gimbled, single-burner Primus kerosene stove that was >often in use under way. I always considered kerosene a safe fuel, because >to extinguish the stove one opened a vent valve in the fuel tank to >depressurize it, and the vent valve was adjacent to the burner. This is not >something that a gasoline or alcohol stove would allow. > >The Primus burner is preheated by a small open alcohol flame. After it burns >a minute or so the fuel tank is pumped to deliver liquid kerosene to the >burner. The kerosene vaporizes, burns above a jet, and plays on the >vaporizing portion of the burner to keep it hot. The fuel tank is sealed. >Heat conducts from the burner down the supply tube to the tank and >pressurizes the air above the kerosene, which pushes it up the supply line >to the burner. There was no flame regulation on my stove except to release >pressure in the tank as required. > >There is essentially no vaporized kerosene in the Primus fuel tank. If one >pumps the fuel before the burner is hot enough to vaporize it then the >burner floods, but no flare up occurs. Kerosene needs to be hot to really >burn. > >I had a second primus stove in my shop that ran on paint thinner that had >been used to clean paint brushes. The paint and varnish solids in the >thinner were allowed to settle before decanting the clear liquid off the >top. I do not recommend paint thinner as a fuel and only mention it because >it worked, and the paint thinner seemed to have a lot fewer BTU's than >kerosene. > >Aladdin in the UK used to make small kerosene space heaters for use in >yachts. Maybe their burner design, which uses a wick, could be adapted to >small steam locomotive use. Sears used to sell kerosene space heaters that >had a drip-feed burner similar to what Geoff described on his logging loco. >They required a stovepipe connection to a chimney so they must have smoked a >lot. I had one in a drafty old house North Carolina, but I never took it >apart to see how it worked because it was my only source of heat. > >I have have experimented with an Aladdin lamp burner, and fiddled with other >small kerosene lamps, and I have concluded that there are some real subtle >aspects to wick-type kerosene burner design. Without a chimney a kerosene >lamp will be very smokey and have an orange flame because of incomplete >combustion. My guess is that the chimney holds the heat around the wick and >burner which helps to vaporize the kerosene and improve combustion. With the >chimney in place and a correctly-trimmed wick a kerosene lamp burns hot and >brightly. > >Steve >
Re: Kerosene fueling
I had a Kenyon two burner alcohol stove in my live-aboard sailboat. It did a good job, but cooking was slow. By merely changing the burners, I converted the stove to kerosene. Pre heating with alcohol was still required, and the fuel tank had to be pressurized. BTU output seemed to double with the conversion. I could even make pressure cooker bread! The "danger" of the kerosene conversion was that if there was a leak of kerosene that ignited, water would spread the flames because the fuel floats on water whereas alcohol is soluble in water and does not float on top and continue to burn. This is a possible drawback to using kerosene burners on our loco's -- a spill, if ignited, would be spread by water, not extinguished. Also, thehe increased BTU output could also be a problem for some boilers, and could mean that water would be used up before the fuel was depleted. May you have a fresh breeze in your sails and steam in your cylinders.. Mr. Lunkenheimer's associate, Walt
RE: Kerosene fueling
Susan, Geoff, Walt and the List: My sailboat had a gimbled, single-burner Primus kerosene stove that was often in use under way. I always considered kerosene a safe fuel, because to extinguish the stove one opened a vent valve in the fuel tank to depressurize it, and the vent valve was adjacent to the burner. This is not something that a gasoline or alcohol stove would allow. The Primus burner is preheated by a small open alcohol flame. After it burns a minute or so the fuel tank is pumped to deliver liquid kerosene to the burner. The kerosene vaporizes, burns above a jet, and plays on the vaporizing portion of the burner to keep it hot. The fuel tank is sealed. Heat conducts from the burner down the supply tube to the tank and pressurizes the air above the kerosene, which pushes it up the supply line to the burner. There was no flame regulation on my stove except to release pressure in the tank as required. There is essentially no vaporized kerosene in the Primus fuel tank. If one pumps the fuel before the burner is hot enough to vaporize it then the burner floods, but no flare up occurs. Kerosene needs to be hot to really burn. I had a second primus stove in my shop that ran on paint thinner that had been used to clean paint brushes. The paint and varnish solids in the thinner were allowed to settle before decanting the clear liquid off the top. I do not recommend paint thinner as a fuel and only mention it because it worked, and the paint thinner seemed to have a lot fewer BTU's than kerosene. Aladdin in the UK used to make small kerosene space heaters for use in yachts. Maybe their burner design, which uses a wick, could be adapted to small steam locomotive use. Sears used to sell kerosene space heaters that had a drip-feed burner similar to what Geoff described on his logging loco. They required a stovepipe connection to a chimney so they must have smoked a lot. I had one in a drafty old house North Carolina, but I never took it apart to see how it worked because it was my only source of heat. I have have experimented with an Aladdin lamp burner, and fiddled with other small kerosene lamps, and I have concluded that there are some real subtle aspects to wick-type kerosene burner design. Without a chimney a kerosene lamp will be very smokey and have an orange flame because of incomplete combustion. My guess is that the chimney holds the heat around the wick and burner which helps to vaporize the kerosene and improve combustion. With the chimney in place and a correctly-trimmed wick a kerosene lamp burns hot and brightly. Steve
RE: Kerosene fueling
Isn't Susan a great asset to our list? Lot's of thought provoking ideas. Anyone for solar heat--the oven baking cake with a light bulb submitted by Trent gave me this thought. Of course it wouldn't work inside at DH but there is always a lot of "hot" air lurking around--(don't look at me!) I mentioned once some time ago-sorry for the repeat, that I owned a vertical boiler freelance logging loco S/B by a friend. 3-1/2'-3/4" scale: It had a lava rock bed (firebox) that was kerosene gravity fed and very uncomplicated. It was a fantastic runner and the needle valve feed could control the fire very well with some practice. It was reasonable safe too, as it needed the exhaust or blower to keep the fire up. There was some danger in carelessness in over feed causing a nice track fire--tho that NEVER happened to me--Ha you say!! Well just one tiny little fire --once! Later, the little boiler was damaged 'cos I let a steamer not accustomed to feed pumps run it (my fault for lack of instructions)-- they thought that if the bypass valve was open it would feed water to the boiler!! There were 50 tubes in that boiler and it took some repair!! There was still some blow which kept the fire going enough to damage the tubes at the top of the boiler OK Susan--your design for a solar run loco please! Geoff. As Susan wrote: >Many thanks to everyone for their comments on and off the list. > >I have been cautioned as to kerosene, however I can assure everyone that I >am not intending to make a fireball in the kitchen (flambeed custards >perhaps). > >Just to widen the discussion for the moment I am listing some fuels with >comments for you to add to or correct (I have probably missed a few). > > >Wood: >Not appropriate, in my case, as the prototype was oil fired. > >Coal: >Not appropriate as the prototype was oil fired. > >Methanol: >Low heat generation: Safe(ish) as often used in "toy" steamers e.g. Mammod. >N.B: Not safe to drink, some health issues. > >Ethanol: >Higher heat generation. Safe(ish) as can be extinguished with water. >I don't know how practical this is in the UK as the Customs and Excise >people tax this stuff like you Americans wouldn't believe (or maybe post >Prohibition you would). Probably better off burning dollar bills or Malt >Whiskey (the latter would smell better than JP-5 aviation kerosene too). >Wick burners commonly used. >Pro: Left overs can be added to the punch bowl. Some health issues from >over exposure (*hic*). > >White Spirit: >? >Use in Primus style burner. >Safety issues? > >Petrol (lead free preferred): >Use in Primus style burner. >Safety issues? > >Kerosene: >Cannot be extinguished with water. >Smell problem when used indoors? >Gravity fed porous "rock" or pressurized vapor burner. > >Diesel: >Similar problems to Kerosene. > >Butane: >Gas of choice? >Ceramic burner or gas jet(s). >Problems with maintaining feed pressure when cold. > >Propane or Butane/Propane mix: >Not allowed by G1 society as considered too dangerous. >Could use camping gaz cartridges placed in tender to supply gas directly >which might overcome the safety concerns but these are far too large for >1/32nd scale use. > >Electricity: >Pro: Clean and on demand: >Con: Huge battery required for any sort of reasonable operating time (like >truck battery size), or fully electrified track (*sizzle-sizzle*). > >Candles: >Hum, night light power! >Might be possible to make a multi wick candle using night lights in a >special holder. >Can't see how to make it work in my locomotive because of access problems. >But might be possible for other designs. >Certainly would chuck out a fair amount of heat. The 24 candles (a token >amount, I am older than that) on my birthday cake last summer melted the >chocolate icing in very short order, the cake had to do an emergency stop >in the freezer before being sliced up. Although in the end it didn't save >the chocolate (*sticky smile*). > >Other Fuels/Energy Sources:
Re: Kerosene fueling
Susan, 'Toy' steamers whether Mamods or Asters are generally fired by methylated spirits ie 'meths' NOT methanol. Meths is just ethanol(& a good dose of absorbed water)fouled up according to requirements of local Customs & Excise people to prevent the public drinking it & avoiding the crippling tax govs like to impose. I seem to remember a mailing from Capt. Lunkenheimer a while back reporting increased vigour from his toys by fuelling with methanol - the incresed volatility presumably outweighing the lower calorific value as per the butane/propane situation. GIMRA is a bit neurotic re B/P mixes which personally I think are OK in tender gas tanks - but we don't wish to reopen that debate I am sure ! Wait till they find out the transpondies have access to isobutane ! Good luck with the kerosene firing - can be done & is done in larger scales. But if you feel less adventurous, meths & the various gas firing arrangements are established procedures. Art Walker, Guildford, England
RE: Kerosene fueling
Hi, Many thanks to everyone for their comments on and off the list. I have been cautioned as to kerosene, however I can assure everyone that I am not intending to make a fireball in the kitchen (flambeed custards perhaps). Just to widen the discussion for the moment I am listing some fuels with comments for you to add to or correct (I have probably missed a few). Wood: Not appropriate, in my case, as the prototype was oil fired. Coal: Not appropriate as the prototype was oil fired. Methanol: Low heat generation: Safe(ish) as often used in "toy" steamers e.g. Mammod. N.B: Not safe to drink, some health issues. Ethanol: Higher heat generation. Safe(ish) as can be extinguished with water. I don't know how practical this is in the UK as the Customs and Excise people tax this stuff like you Americans wouldn't believe (or maybe post Prohibition you would). Probably better off burning dollar bills or Malt Whiskey (the latter would smell better than JP-5 aviation kerosene too). Wick burners commonly used. Pro: Left overs can be added to the punch bowl. Some health issues from over exposure (*hic*). White Spirit: ? Use in Primus style burner. Safety issues? Petrol (lead free preferred): Use in Primus style burner. Safety issues? Kerosene: Cannot be extinguished with water. Smell problem when used indoors? Gravity fed porous "rock" or pressurized vapor burner. Diesel: Similar problems to Kerosene. Butane: Gas of choice? Ceramic burner or gas jet(s). Problems with maintaining feed pressure when cold. Propane or Butane/Propane mix: Not allowed by G1 society as considered too dangerous. Could use camping gaz cartridges placed in tender to supply gas directly which might overcome the safety concerns but these are far too large for 1/32nd scale use. Electricity: Pro: Clean and on demand: Con: Huge battery required for any sort of reasonable operating time (like truck battery size), or fully electrified track (*sizzle-sizzle*). Candles: Hum, night light power! Might be possible to make a multi wick candle using night lights in a special holder. Can't see how to make it work in my locomotive because of access problems. But might be possible for other designs. Certainly would chuck out a fair amount of heat. The 24 candles (a token amount, I am older than that) on my birthday cake last summer melted the chocolate icing in very short order, the cake had to do an emergency stop in the freezer before being sliced up. Although in the end it didn't save the chocolate (*sticky smile*). Other Fuels/Energy Sources: ? What have I missed? Comments? I will be buying a foam fire extinguisher and fire blanket before trying any of the above. Should really have them for the kitchen anyway (not that I do any deep fat frying). And yes, I will let the list know of any progress. Don't hold you breaths though, as I am just about to start with the front 4 wheel truck. It is my intention to put up a web site at some point, and to include source material (e.g. wheel tire profiles) as well as drawings and pictures. The above fuel list could well be a page in it's own right. Best wishes for the New Year, Susan.
RE: Kerosene fueling [was: Electric Steam / Cold Steam]
Let's see: A Honey bee weighs, say, 8 pounds and has a wingarea of 0.01 square inches... hey, you're right, a Honey Bee should not be able to fly! Seriously though, this is how this urban myth first arose. An engineer was asked by a reporter how something as heavy as a bumble bee could fly and did a quick calculation on the back of an envelope...and got it wrong. By the time he had corrected his calculation it was too late and the story had been printed. I do agree with your sentiments though, it always helps to look at problems from other points of view. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: den 27 december 2000 22:42 To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: Kerosene fueling [was: Electric Steam / Cold Steam] In a message dated 00-12-27 06:49:09 EST, you write: << and much of what I am considering is because "I don't know any better" i.e. nobody has told me it can't be done, tain't natural, etc., etc. >> Go for it Susan Keep us advised. Remember the Honey Bee is not supposed to be able to fly because its body is too large for it's wing area. The Honey Bee does not know that -so it flys anyhow.In my 35+ years in various positions in the truck manufacturing industry I saw many ingenious designs come from people who were not mechanical engineers. Steamers Forever Salty
Re: Kerosene fueling
Susan If you want a lot of ideas in a small space, try contacting The Locomotive Works at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and purchasing their book of drawings and instructions for their 1/4" locomotives. The price is 12 USD. The book, which I got from them about 10 years ago, consists of reprints of a series of construction articles by Martin Lewis. The series was copyrighted in 1941 and appeared, I believe, in a publication called The Model Craftsman. Martin Lewis was the designer of the locomotives which are now available in kit form from The Locomotive Works. In the book, Lewis states that the locos are designed for alcohol, kerosene, Diesel oil, gasoline, or propane. He illustrates a wick burner for alcohol which I suppose would also work with kerosene. However, and this might be of more interest to you, he also illustrates two generating burners. One is a simple, elegant design which does not require a pressure tank. He says a head of only 2" provides enough pressure to operate the burner, which is designed for alcohol, kerosene, or Diesel. The other generating burner (which does require a pressure tank holding six to ten lbs. pressure) was designed primarily for gasoline, but he indicates that it can also burn alcohol. It should burn kerosene also, but that would require a more elaborate lighting procedure. This burner, sans generating tube, also handles propane well. The book has dimensioned drawings and instructions for all the burners but not for the pressure tank. Victor Lacy -Original Message- From: Susan Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 5:48 AM Subject: RE: Kerosene fueling [was: Electric Steam / Cold Steam] >Hi Trent, Phil et Al, > >I have been considering the whole "heating water to make steam" business >for a while, and have two versions currently in mind. I would add that all >this is very much "thoughts in progress, and may be changed at any time" >(sounds very much like woman's prerogative doesn't it (*grin*)!). > >Firstly I am considering a burner based on the camping style pressurized >stove for liquid fuel - which could be kerosene, white spirit or even >alcohol for that matter. > >Secondly I am considering alternative boiling methods including a semi >flash steam marine style unit, or even a full flash steam if I can get it >right. Okay, deviating from prototype practice, but then we don't put >several hundred tubes into our boilers either - some things don't scale >neatly. Ultimately I am looking at options to be able to have a pipe rather >than a pressure vessel based steam generator to make as much of the steam >"on demand" as possible. > >To my mind liquid fuel has a number of advantages over gas including the >fact that it is a liquid at normal temperatures (*duh*) and does not need >to be stored or held in a pressurized container. Well, other than any >pressure that might be required to feed the liquid, which could be quickly >removed. And the UK G1 Soc. doesn't permit Propane mixes for safety >reasons, so is has to be straight Butane for gas. > >As to the burner itself there is the conventional camping stove >(blowtorch?) type technology, or as an alternative I am looking at the >possibility to use steam to inject the fuel (and atomize it at the same >time) into the combustion chamber (as per prototype practice). Some form of >mechanical pumping would obviously be needed initially to get the first >steam raised. > >I would note at this point that I am an electronics hardware designer >rather than a mechanical engineer by profession. I have lots of ideas, no >doubt many of which are impractical for one reason or another, and much of >what I am considering is because "I don't know any better" i.e. nobody has >told me it can't be done, tain't natural, etc., etc. > >I am also experimenting (being a practical hands on type) and I do >understand that what may work at 1/16th or bigger scale may well not be >practical at 1/32nd. So I am very much open to comments and advise from >those who actually have real experience with live steamers - as I have yet >to raise (locomotive) steam of any kind (*sigh*). To be honest still >struggling to get my lathe sorted out (*more sighs*). > >So any examples of "current practice" i.e. anything that actually worked in >the last 100 years (isn't steam technology wonderful - not like electronics >which changes so fast that even a few months can outdate things) is of >interest. I have the Virginia and Caribou original articles from the Model >Engineer, but otherwise there is a dearth of American outline designs >available here in the UK. My primary reference source is my 1916 Locomotive >D
Re: Kerosene fueling
Susan, Like Salty said, sometimes the best ideas or new approachs to problems comes from someone who has never been told, "you can't do that". I've personally seen it happen twice with results that could only be dreamed of by professionals that had been in the field for many years. Please keep us informed of what discoveries you make. It certainly has my attention. Later, Trent
Re: Kerosene fueling [was: Electric Steam / Cold Steam]
Gary, A cherished possesion for sure. Any pics available? Trent Gary Broeder wrote: > I have a model traction engine that my Grandfather > scratch built in about 1905
RE: RE: Kerosene fueling [was: Electric Steam / Cold Steam]
>Firstly I am considering a burner based on the camping style pressurized >stove for liquid fuel - which could be kerosene, white spirit or even >alcohol for that matter. >Susan. Susan, The white gas or spirit as you call it will indeed work. I have a model traction engine that my Grandfather scratch built in about 1905 with just that. One of the tanks at the rear holds "camp stove fuel" which is pumped up just like the old camp stoves. The burner is rather noisy just as the old stoves and lanterns. It does work well and I still steam it up on special days. GaryB
Re: Kerosene fueling [was: Electric Steam / Cold Steam]
In a message dated 00-12-27 06:49:09 EST, you write: << and much of what I am considering is because "I don't know any better" i.e. nobody has told me it can't be done, tain't natural, etc., etc. >> Go for it Susan Keep us advised. Remember the Honey Bee is not supposed to be able to fly because its body is too large for it's wing area. The Honey Bee does not know that -so it flys anyhow.In my 35+ years in various positions in the truck manufacturing industry I saw many ingenious designs come from people who were not mechanical engineers. Steamers Forever Salty
Re: Kerosene fueling [was: Electric Steam / Cold Steam]
Hi, I have often wondered why someone has not adapted sa "primus" type burner to our hobby. The primus kero burner is very hot, maybe too hot for our Cu boilers. The primus alcohol burner is used extensively in boats, or at least was used extensively on them when I lived aboard my sailboat, but that was in the 70's and early 80's. The advantage of the alcohol primus was the fact that the fire could be put out with water, something you had access to in s sailboat. The kero burner required a fire extinguisher, something you also had but that might not have enough capacity if the pressure fuel tank sprung a leak and sprayed kero all about. I do know that the kero primus allowed me to make conch chowder, or bake pressure cooker bread, in half the time of the alcohol burner. Keep your steam up! ( in the manner of your choice) Walt, Mr. Lunkenheimers associate
RE: Kerosene fueling [was: Electric Steam / Cold Steam]
Hi Trent, Phil et Al, I have been considering the whole "heating water to make steam" business for a while, and have two versions currently in mind. I would add that all this is very much "thoughts in progress, and may be changed at any time" (sounds very much like woman's prerogative doesn't it (*grin*)!). Firstly I am considering a burner based on the camping style pressurized stove for liquid fuel - which could be kerosene, white spirit or even alcohol for that matter. Secondly I am considering alternative boiling methods including a semi flash steam marine style unit, or even a full flash steam if I can get it right. Okay, deviating from prototype practice, but then we don't put several hundred tubes into our boilers either - some things don't scale neatly. Ultimately I am looking at options to be able to have a pipe rather than a pressure vessel based steam generator to make as much of the steam "on demand" as possible. To my mind liquid fuel has a number of advantages over gas including the fact that it is a liquid at normal temperatures (*duh*) and does not need to be stored or held in a pressurized container. Well, other than any pressure that might be required to feed the liquid, which could be quickly removed. And the UK G1 Soc. doesn't permit Propane mixes for safety reasons, so is has to be straight Butane for gas. As to the burner itself there is the conventional camping stove (blowtorch?) type technology, or as an alternative I am looking at the possibility to use steam to inject the fuel (and atomize it at the same time) into the combustion chamber (as per prototype practice). Some form of mechanical pumping would obviously be needed initially to get the first steam raised. I would note at this point that I am an electronics hardware designer rather than a mechanical engineer by profession. I have lots of ideas, no doubt many of which are impractical for one reason or another, and much of what I am considering is because "I don't know any better" i.e. nobody has told me it can't be done, tain't natural, etc., etc. I am also experimenting (being a practical hands on type) and I do understand that what may work at 1/16th or bigger scale may well not be practical at 1/32nd. So I am very much open to comments and advise from those who actually have real experience with live steamers - as I have yet to raise (locomotive) steam of any kind (*sigh*). To be honest still struggling to get my lathe sorted out (*more sighs*). So any examples of "current practice" i.e. anything that actually worked in the last 100 years (isn't steam technology wonderful - not like electronics which changes so fast that even a few months can outdate things) is of interest. I have the Virginia and Caribou original articles from the Model Engineer, but otherwise there is a dearth of American outline designs available here in the UK. My primary reference source is my 1916 Locomotive Dictionary, an awesome book full of fascinating detail (of course its all 12" scale stuff). And to those who wonder why she doesn't just buy herself an Aster kit (Allengheny!) or such like I guess I am enjoying the challenge of doing/learning something new and as a hobby rather than electronics (i.e. my profession in some form) based. Of course me being me I have gone from idle interest to full head on design, and now my idle thoughts are whether I could ever take my design and build it full size! (Assuming the mythical lotto win of course.) Totally "la-la land", but something to ponder when making pastry, preparing vegetables, or doing the dishes. Thanks. Best wishes, Susan.
