Re: alcohol vs butane vs white gas/Ken Shattock Burner
Dear Chuck, You can impress the hell out of a guy. I owe you $10.00 for that formaldehyde course. My specialty is mechanics. Thank you for sending the information. This e-mail I will not erase. Arthur-Mexico City > >
RE: alcohol vs butane vs white gas/Ken Shattock Burner
Oxidation of primary alcohols produces aldehydes. Methyl alcohol will react with hot copper(II) oxide to form formaldehyde. This reaction is especially interesting because of the changes that can be observed in the copper(II) oxide. Specifically the copper(II) oxide is converted to metallic copper which is then returned to copper(II) oxide and the process repeats as long as the copper(II) oxide/ copper metal remain hot. Which is why our wick tubes don't disintegrate. The problem is that this reaction will only take place in the presence of a strong oxidizing agent such as chromic anhydride, CrO3 , in sulfuric acid; potassium dichromate in sulfuric acid; and potassium permanganate, non of which are present. The upshot is that if this reaction is taking place, the amounts of formaldehyde produced should be at the trace level. However, safety always dictates to run engines in well vetillated spaces. H H C-OH + CuO -> H C=O + Cu + HOH H H Methanol + Copper (II) Oxide -> Formaldehyde + Copper + Water My Best, Chuck Charles W. Walters Twin Lakes Railway CEO http://home.twcny.rr.com/twinlakesrw -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Harry Wade Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 10:01 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: alcohol vs butane vs white gas/Ken Shattock Burner At 02:32 AM 3/17/03 EST, you wrote: >Alcohol fired flames applied to copper produces a formaldehyde gas To the List Chemists, How does this happen? It seems to me that some copper would have to be consumed for this to occur, but them I'm no chemist. And maybe this explains why certain alcohol-fired locomotive drivers I know (who shall remain nameless) appear to be pickled most of the time. :-) Regards, Harry
Re: alcohol vs butane vs white gas/Ken Shattock Burner
At 02:32 AM 3/17/03 EST, you wrote: >Alcohol fired flames applied to copper produces a formaldehyde gas To the List Chemists, How does this happen? It seems to me that some copper would have to be consumed for this to occur, but them I'm no chemist. And maybe this explains why certain alcohol-fired locomotive drivers I know (who shall remain nameless) appear to be pickled most of the time. :-) Regards, Harry
Re: alcohol vs butane vs white gas/Ken Shattock Burner
At 02:32 AM 3/17/03 EST, you wrote: >"Its pungent odor will be objectionable if operated in an >unventilated room. but NO Live Steam equipment should be fired in a closed >area without adequate ventilation first provided. Editor" >Bob List, This disclaimer was probably added because the elder Mr. Shattock (Vic) had his well-known (at one time) 1/2" scale live steam layout in his basement. The younger Mr Shattock (Ken) has appeared on the Net in the last few months hawking this burner plan (see below). This is a posting that appeared on the Steam in the Garden discussion board: >>From Dick Moger: "You still haven't answered my question though Ken How stable is the flame? is it subject to blowing out? This has been the downfall of most of the designs that use vaporisation. Wicks are definitely back-level technology and we've been promised their demise for quite some time now!" >>Response from Ken Shattock: Mr.Moger, Sir: My grandfather's vaporizing-type denatured alcohol burner is essentially a very shallow rectangular pan that lies flat within the entire firebox area and is air tight. The alcohol is fed by gravity from the locomotive tender to the firebox by means of a flexible rubber hose.. During the firing up process, a "torch" made by taking a stiff piece of wire and wrapping it around a piece of asbestos wool is made. The torch is dipped in alcohol and then lit. It is inserted thru the firebox door and laid inside on top of the burner plate to pre-heat it. During this time, artificial blower draft of somekind is provided for at the stack. When you think it is pre-heated sufficiently-- you open a needle valve a little and watch inside the firebox and notice if blue flame starts to appear around the size # 60 "jet holes" that are spaced over the burner surface. As the burner appears to be lighting ok, you can turn on more fuel and the entire firebox will be filled with very hot flame. By adjusting your loco's blower valve and with proper setting of the needle valve, you will have more fire than you need.. Once operating the engine, you may re-adjust the fire for optimum performance. To directly answer your very "worrisome" question:-- the burner will NOT blow out on you no matter what, when properly constructed. This burner is the result of much trial and error and many discarded pieces. The final form was designed by my grandfather, Victor Shattock, who was born in Culmstock, Devonshire, England. The final design has been in use over 80+ years and "seems to do the business". You MUST use a GOOD GRADE of alcohol however--a poor grade will raise a terrible stink. My grandfather was also noted (worldwide) for having a complete railroad empire in the basement of his Oakland, California home for some thirty one years. All the locomotives and rolling stock were 2 1/2" gauge (Gauge-3) and burned alcohol. We never had any problems using these burners inside the basement when operating the trains for visitors and the general public. I lived in that house for fourteen years and can attest to that!! Being in the UK-I'm sure you are a dyed-in-the-wool (wick-type burner operator)-- take a moment in time and try something more reliable--you can't go wrong! Contact me direct at my E-Mail shown (any of you guys) and I'll send you info on how to order the drawings. Very inexpensive!"<<
Re: alcohol vs butane vs white gas/Ken Shattock Burner
Thanks Bob, that looks like a good project. Jeff in NC
Re: alcohol vs butane vs white gas/Ken Shattock Burner
OK! I found the article by Ken about his grandfather Victor. The burner is the same as Clark's shay. This is why I had brought his engine into this discussion. Here is a scan of the main drawings on the burner: http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/BobStarr/Pictures/vapor%20burner.jpg This article is written by Ken, but I am surprised he can sell it; as what I have is a copy from Live Steam magazine March 1976. Here is an interesting footnote, tho, that appears from the editor: "For the uninitiated, the "poison gas plant" reference harks back to LBSC, the British designer of small locomotives. Alcohol fired flames applied to copper produces a formaldehyde gas which, as many substances, can be lethal in adequate dosage. Its pungent odor will be objectionable if operated in an unventilated room. but NO Live Steam equipment should be fired in a closed area without adequate ventilation first provided. Editor" Oh now my finger are tired from all that typing! I thought the poison gas part was interesting and have never that. Bob