Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Pete, If I understand correctly what a dead leg lubricator is, then yes the Accu C-16 has it. The C-16 uses an air tank under the running board as a steam oil reservoir. It has only one brass tube running from the reservoir to the steam line. The lubricator tubing tees into the steam line after the super heater, and at the same location where the steam line tees to go to the two steam chests. It uses lots of steam oil, much more so than my Roundhouse loco. Paul --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/28/01 3:01:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did I hear a rumor the new Accucraft C-16 Live Steamer has a DL lubricator? Pete __ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
I have been following this for some time. All my lokies have a dead leg lubricator. I have found that I don't get much condensate but the oil that is left has a high water content. Robb
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Gary, Maybe that is why the lubricator on my Mike isn't working? They are built so that the lube tank is higher than the point where the tube joins the steam line. Same way in the Hudson, but that works OK! Keep your steam up! Walt
RE: Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Gary, Sorry, Your following statement is not correct: "Geoff, and others, Oil floats on water that is the only "pressure " needed. The whole system is under the same pressure" It IS NOT!. I will reply to you off sslivesteam. Pip, Pip Geoff. geoff.Harry, but we are talking about a pressurized system and the water won't just "push" the oil into the steam line--there MUST be a pressure differential! Certainly the water displaces the oil, ( thus a displacement lubricator)- Geoff, and others, Oil floats on water that is the only "presure " needed. The whole system is under the same pressure so where can the differential come from?. Take a small glass tube closed at the bottom, fill it half with oil. Fill the other half with water... Watch what happens. Oil rises to the top,keep pouring water in and in time the oil will be gone with water remaining. This will happen in an open atmosphere or a closed system under pressure. Gary
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
In a message dated 1/28/01 3:01:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did I hear a rumor the new Accucraft C-16 Live Steamer has a DL lubricator? Pete
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Hm, must have had my hearing aids turned off then.n'est pas moi! Mr. Lunkenheimer's associate
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Jim, He would undoubtedly think it was some sort of a hoax! Walt
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Hi, The K-4s model uses what was originally the "train control box" on the real loco as the lubricator for the Aster model. It is in front of the smokebox on the 'front porch.' Fingers do get uncomfortable there on occasion! Walt
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Trent, On an Aster GER I once owned the lubr did not work well--Someone told me to put in the smoke box--I did and it worked well--don't ask me why. The engine was a low pressure beast, perhaps the heat wsrmed the oil so that it fowed more readily. Harry you wrote; " And this is the whole story in a nutshell folks, the only reason and means by which oil leaves the lubricator is by water from condensed steam pushing the oil out. This is the DISPLACEMENT part of displacement lubricator." In a sense you are correct, Harry, but we are talking about a pressurized system and the water won't just "push" the oil into the steam line--there MUST be a pressure differential! Certainly the water displaces the oil, ( thus a displacement lubricator)- it has to as the oil leaves the lubricator but it (the water) doesn't automatically turn into hydraulic pressure which exerts a force on the oil . That is the displacement part and that is why it is called DISPLACEMENT lubricator. The steam moving thru the piping at velocity causes a drop in pressure, thereby drawing out the oil--(or the water at a higher pressure now pushing the oil out)- take your pick!. We have discussed how the steam enters the lubr and I am already getting repetitive-! (as usual!)_ I've rambled too much--This is my last word on the matter.--it's dragging on--back to the Ruby tender! Geoff. Ok guys and gals, another question tossed into this already deep discussion. What difference, if any, would placing the lubricator (dead leg or otherwise) in the smoke box have? For the life of me I can't think of the exact engine that I saw this done on, but only on that one engine. I didn't pay enough attention at the time to remember if it were pass through or dead leg, or to ask why it was placed in the smokebox. It may have only been for cosmetic reasons but I tend to think that that it really had a purpose for being there since the operator complained about the difficult access to the cap. (something about burned fingers grin) Now, that being said, the lubricator MAY have actually been below the smokebox between the frames and only the cap was inside the smokebox so as to hide it from view. I wish I could remember more. Thoughts anyone? Later, Trent
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Jim, Could in fact be the Frank S. Wish I could remember if it were a condensate tank or the actual lubricator. It's actually unimportant other than I was wondering what effect if any would placing the lubricator in the smokebox have. I'm not planning on doing that, only wondering. I stained the carpet in my office at home just last night with my Ruby. My nephew loves all my "choo choos" and wanted a better look at the Ruby so I sat it in the floor to be more on his level. I got the stain out with Windex glass cleaner luckily. (a friend who once did carpet cleaning on the side told me of that "trick") Later, Trent Jim Curry wrote: The Frank S had an exhaust condensate tank with screw cap located in the smokebox. Is this what you're remembering? No doubt this tank was to prevent an oil bath on the train so we could run on the Persian rugs at Christmas, thrilling the children and chagrining the wives:).
RE: Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Harry, but we are talking about a pressurized system and the water won't just "push" the oil into the steam line--there MUST be a pressure differential! Certainly the water displaces the oil, ( thus a displacement lubricator)- Geoff, and others, Oil floats on water that is the only "presure " needed. The whole system is under the same pressure so where can the differential come from?. Take a small glass tube closed at the bottom, fill it half with oil. Fill the other half with water... Watch what happens. Oil rises to the top,keep pouring water in and in time the oil will be gone with water remaining. This will happen in an open atmosphere or a closed system under pressure. Gary
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Spen, I wonder if the pressure in the line oscillates very rapidly because of the valve action? There would be times when all is closed and other times when you would have partial steam flow, etc. Would that not alter the steam line pressure? I'm not sure I understand all I know about this subject...to quote my wise, but long departed, Grandmother. Keep it up!, your steam that is. Walt Lunk
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Hi, It has been a while since I've given much thought to capillary action, the meniscus factor, etc. As I recall, capillary attraction and capillary rise depends on the viscosity of the fluid, the diameter of the "tube," and type of surface (smooth, rough, etc). A characteristic of good lubricating oils is the ability to form a deep meniscus, I.e. good attraction to the walls of the cylinder and able to "creep" up the walls and stick to the walls. That may account for some of the movement of oil from the lubricator to the injection point at the banjo. Shsh, that danged college physics after me again? Keep your steam up and your cylinder walls slippery Walt Lunk
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Ok guys and gals, another question tossed into this already deep discussion. What difference, if any, would placing the lubricator (dead leg or otherwise) in the smoke box have? For the life of me I can't think of the exact engine that I saw this done on, but only on that one engine. I didn't pay enough attention at the time to remember if it were pass through or dead leg, or to ask why it was placed in the smokebox. It may have only been for cosmetic reasons but I tend to think that that it really had a purpose for being there since the operator complained about the difficult access to the cap. (something about burned fingers grin) Now, that being said, the lubricator MAY have actually been below the smokebox between the frames and only the cap was inside the smokebox so as to hide it from view. I wish I could remember more. Thoughts anyone? Later, Trent
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Tom Eaton wrote:- Keith Bucklitch has a drawing of a dead leg lubricator in his "Brazil" plans. Interesting that the outlet pipe rises up to the connection with the steam tee. And why not? In can go any which way it likes as long as there no sump. Mike
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Steve, Thanks for the heads up on the SiTG issue. I should have remembered that one due to my interest in the VPC. Also, thanks to everyone for all the great ideas and information on the dead leg lubricators. I really like it when a simple question strikes up such interesting conversation. Off to dig up the March-April '98 issue of SiTG. Later, Trent
RE: Dead leg lubricator?
Trent, I checked Steam in the Garden last night. The March-April 1998 issue features the construction of the Vest Pocket Climax (VPC) boiler. The VPC uses a dead-leg lubricator. It is positioned in the cab at the backhead. The steam line to it is teed off the steam line to the superheater. The steam line enters the lubricator near the top just below the screw-in filler cap. Steve
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Mike, thank you very much for this lubricator information. Would you
address the hole size more specifically? I'm lucky enough to own several
different steamers, including your 24T and Heisler. Most run without
excessive oil in the chimney exhaust, but, for example, three Aster
Bayern S 2/6's that I have seen run, produce a ring of brown oil and
froth and what seems excessive spray when run. Specifically, then, would
this not be improved by some restriction in the hole size in the
lubricator? Or might it be piston fit or valves?
{My name has been mentioned once or twice in this discussion, so below I
reproduce an FAQ I published some time ago:-
The purpose of the lubricator, (and I include this for those who are new
to
steam locomotives), is to add oil to the steam feed and form a
lubricating
film between the sliding parts of the cylinders and steam chest. There
are
two principal types of lubricator used on model steam locomotives.-}
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
James S. Burns, Jr. wrote: Mike, thank you very much for this lubricator information. Would you address the hole size more specifically? I'm lucky enough to own several different steamers, including your 24T and Heisler. Most run without excessive oil in the chimney exhaust, but, for example, three Aster Bayern S 2/6's that I have seen run, produce a ring of brown oil and froth and what seems excessive spray when run. Specifically, then, would this not be improved by some restriction in the hole size in the lubricator? Or might it be piston fit or valves? You've got to believe this - I have no idea how big the hole is in my lubricators. I just take a piece of 3/32" o/d copper tube off the rack and solder it into the lubricator. I repeat - what seems to matter is the volume of the steam space above the oil and in the steamchests. I understand, however, that the hole size can make a difference in the "cross tube" type as fitted, for instance, to Roundhouse locos where I've seen the oil supply reduced by partially blocking the hole with a piece of fine wire. I've found with the internally fired locos which I've made from time to time that excessive oiling can be caused by suddenly opening the throttle - in fact it's been known since the early days that a loco which is run at a steady pace can stiffen up due to lack of oil after a while and the old timers would give it a burst of throttle to get the oil flowing every 10-15 minutes. Mike http://www.mikechaney.fsnet.co.uk
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Hi All Keith Bucklitch has a drawing of a dead leg lubricator in his "Brazil" plans. He starts with a .5mm (.020") hole and recommends opening the hole up in steps until a maximum of 1mm (.040") Interesting that the outlet pipe rises up to the connection with the steam tee. http://www.fls.org.jm/users/fls/kerrst/steamtee.html#lub Keep steaming, Tom
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
In a message dated 01-01-27 20:52:02 EST, you write: Seems that I remember Kevin O'Connor using a dead leg on a locomotive but can't recall the details. Kevin used one on his Ruby, he showed it to me at DH01 and if I recall correctly it came from a Frank S (?). A very clean installation and was shown in one of the back issues of Steam in the Garden. Salty CCBW
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
My name has been mentioned once or twice in this discussion, so below I
reproduce an FAQ I published some time ago:-
The purpose of the lubricator, (and I include this for those who are new to
steam locomotives), is to add oil to the steam feed and form a lubricating
film between the sliding parts of the cylinders and steam chest. There are
two principal types of lubricator used on model steam locomotives.
1. Mechanical, where a pump is driven by the motion of the locomotive.
These are more normal on the larger "ride-behind" gauges and uncommon, but
not unknown, in Gauge 1.
2. Displacement, where steam is introduced into the top of a sealed
container containing oil, condenses into water which, being denser, sinks to
the bottom displacing oil as it does so.
Displacement lubricators may then be further sub-divided:-
a) In-Line. The steam pipe passes through the lubricator on its way from
regulator (throttle) to the cylinders. A small hole in the pipe allows
steam to escape into the lubricator and the displaced oil to enter the steam
line. This type is often located in the cab, which means that the oil has
to pass through any steam drying or superheating pipes on its way to the
cylinders, which may cause carbonisation and eventual blocking and failure
of the steam pipe.
b) Dead-Leg. A small diameter pipe is teed into the main steam pipe or the
steamchest, its other end terminating inside the lubricator. Its action is
otherwise the same as the in-line type. The dead-leg has many advantages of
which the principal one is that it can be mounted downstream of the
superheater, close to the cylinders. It is also much easier to fit some
form of needle regulator to adjust the oil delivery. There are those who
claim that it cannot possibly work. (Aerodynamicists have proved that the
bumble-bee cannot possibly fly. The bumble-bee however, having no knowledge
of science, just carries on flying.) In fact, the constantly varying
pressure in the steamchest whilst the loco in in motion causes a pumping
action allowing the alternate passage of steam an oil, in opposite
directions, down the same pipe. ("Alternate" is used in it's Britspeak
meaning of "one and then the other and so on".) For it to work, there must
be space in the top of the lubricator for the steam to compress and expand
and there must be NO sump in the pipe where condensate may collect.
c) Parallel-Feed (for want of a better name.) A variation on the In-Line,
where a separate feed is taken from the regulator, via a metering valve, to
the lubricator. The outlet pipe bypasses any superheater and is fed
directly to the steamchest. Although more complicated to make, this is
probably the most effective as oil is only delivered when the regulator is
open, and the flow may be adjusted as the loco becomes run in and needs less
oil, resulting in a cleaner engine.
Peter Foley wrote:
A little hole in the end of the pipe is better than a big one - Again
quoting Mike Chaney (this is a foggy memory hear, wish he were here to
make
sure I get it right) a No.50 drill is about perfect.
I'm here, Peter - just lurking, mostly.
The size of the hole is not important - what seems to matter is the steam
space above the oil and the volume of the steamchest (or its equivalent), as
these determine the extent of the pumping action. In both cases, the larger
they are, the more oil you get. In my lubricators (Mamod-Mod, Kitten, Hero,
Catatonk 24T Shay and 14T Heisler), the filler cap is hollowed out to give
the optimum conditions.
In another post, Kevin Strong wrote:-
What you describe sounds a lot like the lubricator that Mike Chaney
designed for the Mamod/Jane/Creekside, and other similar if not
identical locomotives.
I know nothing of the Creekside, but the "designer" of the Jane phoned once
me and spent about 10 minutes telling me all the things he had altered so
that the Jane lubricator could not be called a copy of my design. I have no
idea why he called. Perhaps he felt guilty - silly twit! Incidentally,
the Jane meths burner works better if you lower it about 1/8" to give the
flames a bit more room to burn - he didn't copy that from me either!
[rant mode off]
I have one installed on my Creekside locomotive.
Unfortunately, I don't get good enough runs out of her to tell one way
or another the extent to which it's working. I do get a good amount of
oil on the cylinder face plates, so I can only assume it's getting some,
but the amount of condensate I get out of the drain plug is minimal or
nonexistant. This could have something to do with the "S" curve in the
supply pipe that I had to put in to place the lubricator.
You could be right. The pipe may go "up and over" but never "down and
under" an obstruction. As I wrote in the FAQ, water will collect in the dip
and prevent the oil from passing.
Mike
http://www.mikechaney.fsnet.co.uk
RE: Dead leg lubricator?
Trent, You are correct, the Frank S. has a dead-leg or "Roscoe" lubricator. Unfortunately I do not have any info at hand about the correct configuration for this type of lubricator. A Steam in the Garden article a while back showed one in a loco design. I will take a look and report back on Monday. Steve
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
What you describe sounds a lot like the lubricator that Mike Chaney designed for the Mamod/Jane/Creekside, and other similar if not identical locomotives. I have one installed on my Creekside locomotive. Unfortunately, I don't get good enough runs out of her to tell one way or another the extent to which it's working. I do get a good amount of oil on the cylinder face plates, so I can only assume it's getting some, but the amount of condensate I get out of the drain plug is minimal or nonexistant. This could have something to do with the "S" curve in the supply pipe that I had to put in to place the lubricator. One of these days, I'll get a better burner in her, and see if I can get something that actually resembles a good run. Then, I'll be better able determine whether the lubricator is working or not. Later, K
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
At 02:31 PM 27/01/01 -0600, Trent Dowler wrote: On the plans and original notes it mentions a dead leg lubricator and my friend asked what that was since there is no diagram of it anywhere snip Correct, or do I once again have a lesson to learn? Correct If my friend were to use the dead leg type lubricator, shouldn't the lubricator be placed as close as possible to the cylinders? Mike Chaney has put dead leg lubricators on his engines for years. In an e-discussion with him he offered the opinion that they were as good or better than the pass-through type. As you suggest, they do need to be close to the cylinders, which has the added benefit of being downstream from the superheater, meaning that you don't end up with oil gunk baked onto the inside of the pipe. The DL type also seems to deliver less oil (empirical observation on my part), which I think is a good thing. With the low temperature/low pressure of our steam, the little beasts don't need anywhere near the dose of steam oil that most pass-through lubricators deliver. rta, pf
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Kevin and Trent, I aint no expert on steam but air was my business--I thought, well, one wouldn't get much water in a dead leg lubricator if it works like air --and you have confirmed that when you say you found little or no condensate, Kevin. It works like this: the velocity of a gas passing through a tube or pipe will create a vacuum as it passes a tee or inlet, thus drawing in any air or sand, or oil--whatever you require. It's much the same principle as some sandblast pots, industrial air vacuums, or even the blowers on our little locos. The nice part about a dead leg lubricator is; that the more steam one uses and the faster the loco speeds, the more oil you get--'ows that for grammar? Geoff. What you describe sounds a lot like the lubricator that Mike Chaney designed for the Mamod/Jane/Creekside, and other similar if not identical locomotives. I have one installed on my Creekside locomotive. Unfortunately, I don't get good enough runs out of her to tell one way or another the extent to which it's working. I do get a good amount of oil on the cylinder face plates, so I can only assume it's getting some, but the amount of condensate I get out of the drain plug is minimal or nonexistant. This could have something to do with the "S" curve in the supply pipe that I had to put in to place the lubricator. One of these days, I'll get a better burner in her, and see if I can get something that actually resembles a good run. Then, I'll be better able determine whether the lubricator is working or not. Later, K
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Thanks to everyone for confirming the dead leg lubricator. My friend and I are clear on it being as I thought but now we both have a new question. Does the suppy line need to be routed from the bottom or near the top of the lubricator? If it's the vacuum that draws the oil from the lubricator I would assume that the line should come from the bottom. If it's a displacement lubricator then it should come from the top. Correct? open "can of worms" here I thumbed through my past issues of SiTG but didn't catch the picture that was mentioned. I'll try again later when more time is available. Seems that I remember Kevin O'Connor using a dead leg on a locomotive but can't recall the details. Any other input or thoughts on the dead leg? Sometimes "hands on" knowledge is better than pictures and/or specs. Thanks again. Later, Trent
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
At 07:50 PM 27/01/01 -0600, Trent Dowler wrote: Does the suppy line need to be routed from the bottom or near the top of the lubricator? The end of the line coming into the lubricator from the bottom should be at the top of the lubricator. It works by the same displacement method as the pas-through type of lubricator - steam in, condenses and displaces an equal volume of oil into the dead leg line. How the two (oil and steam) co-exist in the line, let alone pass each other on this one lane road is something I'll leave to fluid mechanics expert. All I know is, it works! If it's the vacuum that draws the oil from the lubricator I would assume that the line should come from the bottom. No vacuum involved Any other input or thoughts on the dead leg? Sometimes "hands on" knowledge is better than pictures and/or specs. A little hole in the end of the pipe is better than a big one - Again quoting Mike Chaney (this is a foggy memory hear, wish he were here to make sure I get it right) a No.50 drill is about perfect. rta, pf
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Geoff, Does that type of lubricator require a venturi type tube? That produces a vacuum on the down side, similar to most sand blasters? Keep your steam up! Walt Lunk
