Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
In a message dated 6/13/2004 11:13:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In a message dated 6/13/2004 3:09:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> my point is that the
> dearth of live steam in garden/back yard railroadways in the US is
probably
> due to something other than fears of litigation- perhaps LGB as Sam
> mentions, and other gauge 1 electric stuff too (Aristocraft, Bachman, etc.
>
I'm a Brit who likes Aster A3s and A4s and UK light rail. I became an
american as well in the late '80s and I found some really neat narrow gauge
railroads, such as the EBT.
My observation, from the perspective of switching to a garden railroad in
the '90s, is that the US didn't have the 2' prototypes and therefore the SM32
concept was a non-starter. So the simple Roundhouse-type live steamers
never
took hold.
However, there was a small, hard-core fraternity running Aster and similar
gauge-1 locos that were too expensive and fiddly for the 'average' guy.
Along
came LGB, creating awareness of the potential outdoors in gauge-1, followed
by Bachmann, Aristo, et al. Then Accucraft jumps in with live steam
versions
of their electric NG locos, and 1:20.3 was off and running.
If you let your mouse wander over to _www.mylargescale.com_
(http://www.mylargescale.com) , you'll find the "Live Steam" forum active
and bursting with
new converts. Check out the photos from the Queen Mary LS Show, where the
mylargescale ("MLS") crew fraternized around two live steam tracks. MLS is
even
running a live steam 'class' to help folk upgrade the Ruby, and has arranged
a bulk purchase of Ruby kits. (I'm always telling them to post complicated
questions here!)
Carolwood has orders for 170 "Fort Wilderness" locos -- mostly from new
converts. That's a lot of orders for just one loco in one batch. There's a
huge
demand out there from newbies.
Jim Stapleton is having his Open House/Steam-up as I write this. There'll
be roughly the same number of Aster 1:32nd locos as usual; maybe 10% more.
But I'll bet there will be a lot of new folk with 1:20.3 locos running NG
models. I've passed invites to quite a few guys I talked to through MLS or
other
1:20.3 venues, such as Roger Cutter's RGS East and Clem's modular 1:20.3
track -- which started as an electric demo for his store, but has been taken
over by live steamers on many occasions!
I'm surprised there aren't any US manufacturers. You know Aristocraft have
promised a chinese-made live steamer sometime? They've already released a
brass railcar.
Perhaps the problem is that there isn't a cottage industry in metal models?
There's lots of wooden models, and a few plastic kits, but no brass etching
or casting. We keep trying -there have been many conversations about
getting
some 1:20.3 wheels made, but none have ever panned out.
Pete
Pete,
Thanks for mentioning the QM steamup, I was not sure if anybody had read my
post here with my links to the pictures. The list of converts is getting to be
very great among the "sparkies". It was they who helped me build the track
so that live steam would not die a sudden death at the Queen Mary Big Train
Show. One of my helpers actualy bought a 3 cylinder shay just to have it to run
on the new track. In the years that I have been running the track there, I
have seen many people run into the show and buy themselves a livesteamer and
camp out at the track for the rest of the show. This year, three of my personal
friends have done exactly that and we will now find them among our ranks.
I do not consider myself any sort of a manufacturer of engines, but every one
of them that I have built has sold immediately. Of course, at the moment I am
out of business since I have no tooling to build them right now. I guess as
far as it goes for American builders we just have to wait for someone with the
right amount of time on their hands and the capital to back themselves up. I
certainly do have to applaud Accucraft for making live steam available to the
masses!
Bob Starr
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Also NorthEast Narrow Gauge in Wiscasset do 1:20 WW&F coach & combine plus Sandy River freight stock as wood kits to run on 32mm. Sam E Keith Taylor wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 12:13 PM > Subject: Re: Imported steam - can the US compete? > > > My observation, from the perspective of switching to a garden railroad > in > > the '90s, is that the US didn't have the 2' prototypes and therefore > the SM32 > > concept was a non-starter. So the simple Roundhouse-type live > steamers never > > took hold. > > > Hi Pete, > I have to disagree with you about the lack of two foot gauge prototypes! > There is a big international following for the two foot gauge railroads > here in Maine! Aside from the Roundhouse Sandy River and Rangeley Lakes > No. 24 and Forney, there are conversion kits to take a Ruby and make it > into a fairly reasonable representation of a Wiscasset, Waterville and > Farmington Forney. And that is but a mere scratch at the surface of what > was available prototype wise. There is a large number of U.S prototypes > to choose from, and there are quite a few models available in electric > power of the maine two footers. If there were steam versions available, > that would run on "O" gauge track, I think there would be a ready made > market of 2' gauge fans, that would love to be able to buy a steamer > that would run in their garden. > Keith TaylorJefferson, Maine USA > (I currently have the brasses from the main and side rods of a 1904 > Vulcan Iron Works 2-4-4 down in my basement shop, from the WW&F Railway > Museum's locomotive restoration project. A dandy cute little fellow that > originally ran in Loiusianna on a sugar plantation) > >
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 12:13 PM Subject: Re: Imported steam - can the US compete? > My observation, from the perspective of switching to a garden railroad in > the '90s, is that the US didn't have the 2' prototypes and therefore the SM32 > concept was a non-starter. So the simple Roundhouse-type live steamers never > took hold. > Hi Pete, I have to disagree with you about the lack of two foot gauge prototypes! There is a big international following for the two foot gauge railroads here in Maine! Aside from the Roundhouse Sandy River and Rangeley Lakes No. 24 and Forney, there are conversion kits to take a Ruby and make it into a fairly reasonable representation of a Wiscasset, Waterville and Farmington Forney. And that is but a mere scratch at the surface of what was available prototype wise. There is a large number of U.S prototypes to choose from, and there are quite a few models available in electric power of the maine two footers. If there were steam versions available, that would run on "O" gauge track, I think there would be a ready made market of 2' gauge fans, that would love to be able to buy a steamer that would run in their garden. Keith TaylorJefferson, Maine USA (I currently have the brasses from the main and side rods of a 1904 Vulcan Iron Works 2-4-4 down in my basement shop, from the WW&F Railway Museum's locomotive restoration project. A dandy cute little fellow that originally ran in Loiusianna on a sugar plantation)
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Well, well Young Sam, I'm 32 yrs older than the Hunslet--hell, I'm closer to the 1890 design! Wheezing Groan Geoff, It's>Clue, loco was built in 1954 as part of a gift to Sierra Leone (former >colony)from the UK, on getting its independence. The basic design IIRC >dates to the 1890's?. N#ow that would age me!! > >Best > >Sam E > >Geoff Spenceley wrote: >> >> Sam, >> >> The prototype two years younger than you? doesn't that make you rather >> old?? Heck, it must be 50 yrs younger than me!! >> >> I sold my two Merlins to Tom Toth, gotta raise money for those expensive >> Asters as I prefer 1/32 scale. Expensive is right tho', we live in a shack >> in the woods, our autos are 10 and 16 years old, my wife hasn't had a new >> dress in 10 years and I dress in the '70s. Soon I will have to distill my >> own alcohol to run the dam things and use old crankcase oil as steam oil. >> The children won't talk to us as there aint going to be any inheritance >> except a bunch of old steam engines. Now there is going to be an Aster LMS >> Sutherland Duchess next year. I'll have to resort to gigoloism again! Well >> gotta get the priorities right! >> >> Happily steaming in this great hobby, >> >> Senile Geoff >> >> My first loco was the Merlin Hunslet. I still have it and it still >> >steams. As a member of the W&LLR I always thought No 85b a rather >> >elegant little engine & when Tom did his model >> > >> >A small irony, the full-sized loco is actually two years younger than >> >me! >> > >> >Best >> > >> >Sam E >> > >> >Geoff Spenceley wrote: >> >> >> >> Right Sam, >> >> >> >> It was Aster and then Tom Cooper's Merlins who helped me into live steam. >> >> Tom needs a great deal of credit as a pioneer. His Merlin Hunslet was a >> >> terrific performer despite some minor defects. I had one for 18 years, >> >> some repairs of course but how it steamed! Big boiler, big butane tank, >> >> very accurate to the prototype, judging by some photos I had. >> >> >> >> Geoff. >> >> >> >> It probably has more to do with what re-sparked the interest in garden >> >> >railways in both countries. >> >> > >> >> >In the UK it is commonly credited to Stuart Browne of Archangel Models >> >> >who made affordable 16mm 'scale' live steamers that WORKED in a garden >> >> >environment. He had his apostles who wrote in the various model mags >> >> >stirring up enthusiasm. Stuart's prices rose quickly, however the baton >> >> >was taken up by Roundhouse Engineering, who provided entry level models >> >> >at reasonable prices. >> >> > >> >> >An unsung hero is Tom Cooper of Merlin models who really introduced >> >> >radio control and gas firing to the 'new' garden rail fraternity. Most >> >> >of his products were sold as radio controlled and I believe that special >> >> >order or retro-engineering was required if you wanted manual control. >> >> > >> >> >The gas-fired boiler provided a halfway house between a plain boiler >> >> >and a 'forced draught' boiler. It freed the manufacturers from having >> >> >to accomodate flame shields in their designs and was less expensive to >> >> >make than an internally fired boiler (whatever the fuel). Roundhouse >> >> >followed Tom's lead and eventually dropped meths firing from their >> >> >range. >> >> > >> >> >Tom also introduced 16mm scale on 45mm gauge to the UK. >> >> > >> >> >In the US my understanding is that LGB provided the spark, particularly >> >> >when they started to make US prototypes. >> >> > >> >> >I stand to be corrected on any of this but I imagine it has a lot to do >> >> >with why both countrys went down different roads. >> >> > >> >> >Sam E >> >> > >> >> >Bede McCormack wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> >> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung >>up in >> >> >> > the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we >>suspect >> >> >> > that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious >>country >> >> >> > may have put folk off. >> >> >> >> >> >> Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. >> >>Setting >> >> >> the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, >> >>watering and >> >> >> oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. >> >> >> >> >> >> Bede McCormack >> >> >> Brooklyn, NY >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
In a message dated 6/13/2004 3:09:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> my point is that the
> dearth of live steam in garden/back yard railroadways in the US is
probably
> due to something other than fears of litigation- perhaps LGB as Sam
> mentions, and other gauge 1 electric stuff too (Aristocraft, Bachman, etc.
>
I'm a Brit who likes Aster A3s and A4s and UK light rail. I became an
american as well in the late '80s and I found some really neat narrow gauge
railroads, such as the EBT.
My observation, from the perspective of switching to a garden railroad in
the '90s, is that the US didn't have the 2' prototypes and therefore the SM32
concept was a non-starter. So the simple Roundhouse-type live steamers never
took hold.
However, there was a small, hard-core fraternity running Aster and similar
gauge-1 locos that were too expensive and fiddly for the 'average' guy. Along
came LGB, creating awareness of the potential outdoors in gauge-1, followed
by Bachmann, Aristo, et al. Then Accucraft jumps in with live steam versions
of their electric NG locos, and 1:20.3 was off and running.
If you let your mouse wander over to _www.mylargescale.com_
(http://www.mylargescale.com) , you'll find the "Live Steam" forum active and
bursting with
new converts. Check out the photos from the Queen Mary LS Show, where the
mylargescale ("MLS") crew fraternized around two live steam tracks. MLS is even
running a live steam 'class' to help folk upgrade the Ruby, and has arranged
a bulk purchase of Ruby kits. (I'm always telling them to post complicated
questions here!)
Carolwood has orders for 170 "Fort Wilderness" locos -- mostly from new
converts. That's a lot of orders for just one loco in one batch. There's a huge
demand out there from newbies.
Jim Stapleton is having his Open House/Steam-up as I write this. There'll
be roughly the same number of Aster 1:32nd locos as usual; maybe 10% more.
But I'll bet there will be a lot of new folk with 1:20.3 locos running NG
models. I've passed invites to quite a few guys I talked to through MLS or other
1:20.3 venues, such as Roger Cutter's RGS East and Clem's modular 1:20.3
track -- which started as an electric demo for his store, but has been taken
over by live steamers on many occasions!
I'm surprised there aren't any US manufacturers. You know Aristocraft have
promised a chinese-made live steamer sometime? They've already released a
brass railcar.
Perhaps the problem is that there isn't a cottage industry in metal models?
There's lots of wooden models, and a few plastic kits, but no brass etching
or casting. We keep trying -there have been many conversations about getting
some 1:20.3 wheels made, but none have ever panned out.
Pete
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Bede and all, As far as I can determine the lack of "live steam in the garden" or garden railroading at all is that most poeple are not aware of either Neither run "out of the box". Both take a fair amount of effort and dare I say "commitment" to a long term project. Along with these aspects, Model Railroading, even with it's resurgence is not nearly as popular as it once was. The Model Train Hobby has yet to reach into "mainstream America" with T.V. or even Radio ads (ouch, did I say Radio? that age thing again) the occasional blurb on a local cable channel does not count. Steam for the masses? I doubt that will happen. The "Yahoo Factor" , with it's soldered safety valves, gasoline instead of "meths", too much J.D, not enough water in the boiler, you name it, it will happen or be rumoured to happen and will keep the mass popularity down. Too bad. I'll close as I opened, It's a shame there is no U.S. built live steam loccies in 45 or 32 mm. I'm convinced it could be changed, perhaps the very problem of the exchange rates will bring it on. Time to play trains..hey y'all, watch this!. Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers!
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Clue, loco was built in 1954 as part of a gift to Sierra Leone (former colony)from the UK, on getting its independence. The basic design IIRC dates to the 1890's?. N#ow that would age me!! Best Sam E Geoff Spenceley wrote: > > Sam, > > The prototype two years younger than you? doesn't that make you rather > old?? Heck, it must be 50 yrs younger than me!! > > I sold my two Merlins to Tom Toth, gotta raise money for those expensive > Asters as I prefer 1/32 scale. Expensive is right tho', we live in a shack > in the woods, our autos are 10 and 16 years old, my wife hasn't had a new > dress in 10 years and I dress in the '70s. Soon I will have to distill my > own alcohol to run the dam things and use old crankcase oil as steam oil. > The children won't talk to us as there aint going to be any inheritance > except a bunch of old steam engines. Now there is going to be an Aster LMS > Sutherland Duchess next year. I'll have to resort to gigoloism again! Well > gotta get the priorities right! > > Happily steaming in this great hobby, > > Senile Geoff > > My first loco was the Merlin Hunslet. I still have it and it still > >steams. As a member of the W&LLR I always thought No 85b a rather > >elegant little engine & when Tom did his model > > > >A small irony, the full-sized loco is actually two years younger than > >me! > > > >Best > > > >Sam E > > > >Geoff Spenceley wrote: > >> > >> Right Sam, > >> > >> It was Aster and then Tom Cooper's Merlins who helped me into live steam. > >> Tom needs a great deal of credit as a pioneer. His Merlin Hunslet was a > >> terrific performer despite some minor defects. I had one for 18 years, > >> some repairs of course but how it steamed! Big boiler, big butane tank, > >> very accurate to the prototype, judging by some photos I had. > >> > >> Geoff. > >> > >> It probably has more to do with what re-sparked the interest in garden > >> >railways in both countries. > >> > > >> >In the UK it is commonly credited to Stuart Browne of Archangel Models > >> >who made affordable 16mm 'scale' live steamers that WORKED in a garden > >> >environment. He had his apostles who wrote in the various model mags > >> >stirring up enthusiasm. Stuart's prices rose quickly, however the baton > >> >was taken up by Roundhouse Engineering, who provided entry level models > >> >at reasonable prices. > >> > > >> >An unsung hero is Tom Cooper of Merlin models who really introduced > >> >radio control and gas firing to the 'new' garden rail fraternity. Most > >> >of his products were sold as radio controlled and I believe that special > >> >order or retro-engineering was required if you wanted manual control. > >> > > >> >The gas-fired boiler provided a halfway house between a plain boiler > >> >and a 'forced draught' boiler. It freed the manufacturers from having > >> >to accomodate flame shields in their designs and was less expensive to > >> >make than an internally fired boiler (whatever the fuel). Roundhouse > >> >followed Tom's lead and eventually dropped meths firing from their > >> >range. > >> > > >> >Tom also introduced 16mm scale on 45mm gauge to the UK. > >> > > >> >In the US my understanding is that LGB provided the spark, particularly > >> >when they started to make US prototypes. > >> > > >> >I stand to be corrected on any of this but I imagine it has a lot to do > >> >with why both countrys went down different roads. > >> > > >> >Sam E > >> > > >> >Bede McCormack wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> > > >> >> > I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in > >> >> > the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect > >> >> > that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country > >> >> > may have put folk off. > >> >> > >> >> Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. > >>Setting > >> >> the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, > >>watering and > >> >> oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. > >> >> > >> >> Bede McCormack > >> >> Brooklyn, NY > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
I suspect that the reason litigation was far from the TE owner's mind was that the machine was probably legally insured without inspection as per your comment' so from that point of view he was covered. I wonder how many garden railway steamologists have 3rd party insurance? Apart from the financial aspect of repairing the boiler there was also a significant 'It will never happen to me factor' involved. IIRC the investigators could not determine whether a contributory cause was the safeties sticking as they were too mangled to tell. We have had modellers over here doing stupid things like soldering safeties shut to 'get more power'. Sadly similar things happened in the past on the full size with engine drivers screwing down safeties to get more wallop with spectacular and fatal results. My portable (alas no longer in my ownership) had two safeties, one a Salter with easy screw adjustment, the other padlocked by the insurance company so that the driver could not interfere with it. As I said steam is relatively safe if you respect it and pay due care. Sadly, events like Medina tar all steam vehicles with the same brush regardless of size, and many newbies are probably leery of live steam simply because they are not conversant with the realities. One final irony. At an enquiry into an explosion, a survivor reported that the fireman had been vigorously shovelling coal into the fire because the pressure gauge showed zero and somehow he thought this state of affairs was due to faulty safety valves. Had he looked more closely he would have seen that the pressure gauge needle was hard up against the stop peg ON THE WRONG SIDE. The well over stressed Bourdon tube had ensured that when the investigators viewed the gauge the true state of affairs was readily apparent. Sam E Bede McCormack wrote: > > Yes, I did have the traction engine explosion in mind- I guess I was making > the tenuous assumption that if the late owner of the TE was unconcerned > enough about litigation to drive a full-sized time bomb into a State fair, > then perhaps many 1:19th et al. scale live steamers' concern about being > sued is a fraction of his (a nineteenth even?!). SO, my point is that the > dearth of live steam in garden/back yard railroadways in the US is probably > due to something other than fears of litigation-
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Sam, The prototype two years younger than you? doesn't that make you rather old?? Heck, it must be 50 yrs younger than me!! I sold my two Merlins to Tom Toth, gotta raise money for those expensive Asters as I prefer 1/32 scale. Expensive is right tho', we live in a shack in the woods, our autos are 10 and 16 years old, my wife hasn't had a new dress in 10 years and I dress in the '70s. Soon I will have to distill my own alcohol to run the dam things and use old crankcase oil as steam oil. The children won't talk to us as there aint going to be any inheritance except a bunch of old steam engines. Now there is going to be an Aster LMS Sutherland Duchess next year. I'll have to resort to gigoloism again! Well gotta get the priorities right! Happily steaming in this great hobby, Senile Geoff My first loco was the Merlin Hunslet. I still have it and it still >steams. As a member of the W&LLR I always thought No 85b a rather >elegant little engine & when Tom did his model > >A small irony, the full-sized loco is actually two years younger than >me! > >Best > >Sam E > >Geoff Spenceley wrote: >> >> Right Sam, >> >> It was Aster and then Tom Cooper's Merlins who helped me into live steam. >> Tom needs a great deal of credit as a pioneer. His Merlin Hunslet was a >> terrific performer despite some minor defects. I had one for 18 years, >> some repairs of course but how it steamed! Big boiler, big butane tank, >> very accurate to the prototype, judging by some photos I had. >> >> Geoff. >> >> It probably has more to do with what re-sparked the interest in garden >> >railways in both countries. >> > >> >In the UK it is commonly credited to Stuart Browne of Archangel Models >> >who made affordable 16mm 'scale' live steamers that WORKED in a garden >> >environment. He had his apostles who wrote in the various model mags >> >stirring up enthusiasm. Stuart's prices rose quickly, however the baton >> >was taken up by Roundhouse Engineering, who provided entry level models >> >at reasonable prices. >> > >> >An unsung hero is Tom Cooper of Merlin models who really introduced >> >radio control and gas firing to the 'new' garden rail fraternity. Most >> >of his products were sold as radio controlled and I believe that special >> >order or retro-engineering was required if you wanted manual control. >> > >> >The gas-fired boiler provided a halfway house between a plain boiler >> >and a 'forced draught' boiler. It freed the manufacturers from having >> >to accomodate flame shields in their designs and was less expensive to >> >make than an internally fired boiler (whatever the fuel). Roundhouse >> >followed Tom's lead and eventually dropped meths firing from their >> >range. >> > >> >Tom also introduced 16mm scale on 45mm gauge to the UK. >> > >> >In the US my understanding is that LGB provided the spark, particularly >> >when they started to make US prototypes. >> > >> >I stand to be corrected on any of this but I imagine it has a lot to do >> >with why both countrys went down different roads. >> > >> >Sam E >> > >> >Bede McCormack wrote: >> >> >> >> > From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > >> >> > I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in >> >> > the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect >> >> > that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country >> >> > may have put folk off. >> >> >> >> Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. >>Setting >> >> the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, >>watering and >> >> oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. >> >> >> >> Bede McCormack >> >> Brooklyn, NY >> >> >> > >> >> >
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
My first loco was the Merlin Hunslet. I still have it and it still steams. As a member of the W&LLR I always thought No 85b a rather elegant little engine & when Tom did his model A small irony, the full-sized loco is actually two years younger than me! Best Sam E Geoff Spenceley wrote: > > Right Sam, > > It was Aster and then Tom Cooper's Merlins who helped me into live steam. > Tom needs a great deal of credit as a pioneer. His Merlin Hunslet was a > terrific performer despite some minor defects. I had one for 18 years, > some repairs of course but how it steamed! Big boiler, big butane tank, > very accurate to the prototype, judging by some photos I had. > > Geoff. > > It probably has more to do with what re-sparked the interest in garden > >railways in both countries. > > > >In the UK it is commonly credited to Stuart Browne of Archangel Models > >who made affordable 16mm 'scale' live steamers that WORKED in a garden > >environment. He had his apostles who wrote in the various model mags > >stirring up enthusiasm. Stuart's prices rose quickly, however the baton > >was taken up by Roundhouse Engineering, who provided entry level models > >at reasonable prices. > > > >An unsung hero is Tom Cooper of Merlin models who really introduced > >radio control and gas firing to the 'new' garden rail fraternity. Most > >of his products were sold as radio controlled and I believe that special > >order or retro-engineering was required if you wanted manual control. > > > >The gas-fired boiler provided a halfway house between a plain boiler > >and a 'forced draught' boiler. It freed the manufacturers from having > >to accomodate flame shields in their designs and was less expensive to > >make than an internally fired boiler (whatever the fuel). Roundhouse > >followed Tom's lead and eventually dropped meths firing from their > >range. > > > >Tom also introduced 16mm scale on 45mm gauge to the UK. > > > >In the US my understanding is that LGB provided the spark, particularly > >when they started to make US prototypes. > > > >I stand to be corrected on any of this but I imagine it has a lot to do > >with why both countrys went down different roads. > > > >Sam E > > > >Bede McCormack wrote: > >> > >> > From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > > >> > I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in > >> > the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect > >> > that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country > >> > may have put folk off. > >> > >> Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. Setting > >> the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, watering and > >> oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. > >> > >> Bede McCormack > >> Brooklyn, NY > >> > > > >
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
At 05:05 PM 6/12/04 -0400, you wrote: >Yes, I did have the traction engine explosion in mind- I guess I was making >the tenuous assumption that if the late owner of the TE was unconcerned >enough about litigation I would guess that the whole lot of them were unconcerned about anything except running their engines. It's my observation, and I would suspect it here, that the "old boy" thing is very much alive and well in various levels of live steam, and in many similar pursuits. What happens, understandably, is nobody wants to be the one to tell Bubba (who may have hauled a trailer 600 miles) he can't fire up his engine, so nobody tells him and they all look the other way. I once asked the "boiler inspector" of my own club, which prides itself in seeing 30-60 locomotives appear at bi-annual meets, year in year out, "When was the last time you refused a visiting engineer permission to steam up because of an expired certificate, no certificate, failure of a test, or refusal to be tested? The answer: "Never, . . . we let them run as a courtesy." Certainly there were metalurgical and structural problems, and catastrophies are always the result of a series of co-dependent conditons and events, but in addition to that my guess is a bunch of them good old boys up there in Medina were looking the other way, as a courtesy you understand. Regards, Harry
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Yes, I did have the traction engine explosion in mind- I guess I was making the tenuous assumption that if the late owner of the TE was unconcerned enough about litigation to drive a full-sized time bomb into a State fair, then perhaps many 1:19th et al. scale live steamers' concern about being sued is a fraction of his (a nineteenth even?!). SO, my point is that the dearth of live steam in garden/back yard railroadways in the US is probably due to something other than fears of litigation- perhaps LGB as Sam mentions, and other gauge 1 electric stuff too (Aristocraft, Bachman, etc. Even Acucraft makes electric engines!) And yes, that Medina accident report is fascinating reading- I believe it was a Case engine, and the key pieces (crown sheet, etc.) went to Case-Western University for metallurgical analysis. Kind of ironic. And actually I think that at the time of the explosion, Ohio didn't even require boiler certs on boilers of that type. They even had to bring in the director of boiler inspections for the state of Pennsylvania to conduct the investigation! I imagine Ohio has stricter standards now... Bede McC. > From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 15:40:49 +0100 > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Imported steam - can the US compete? > > Oh yes, and what is less gratifying about preparing and firing up a loco > and 8 mins later having a REAL steam engine to use. > > If you are referring to the traction engine explosion at the State Fair; > according to the official report (copy on web), that was down to the > owner avoiding having his boiler tested (and thus not having to do > expensive repairs) by registering it in another state where the > regulations were less stringent. Lesson: steam is safe enough if you do > not cut corners. > > Also not being able to scale nature cuts both ways and both Ga 1 and > 16mm boilers are inherently safer than the full sized thing providing > they have been made properly. I'd say worries probably start to cut in > at 2.5" ga and in 10.25" you really are beginning to enter the realms of > full-sized problems, tho I defer to any one who KNOWS better. > > Best > > Sam E > > Bede McCormack wrote: >> >>> From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in >>> the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect >>> that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country >>> may have put folk off. >> >> Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. Setting >> the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, watering and >> oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. >> >> Bede McCormack >> Brooklyn, NY >> > >
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Right Sam, It was Aster and then Tom Cooper's Merlins who helped me into live steam. Tom needs a great deal of credit as a pioneer. His Merlin Hunslet was a terrific performer despite some minor defects. I had one for 18 years, some repairs of course but how it steamed! Big boiler, big butane tank, very accurate to the prototype, judging by some photos I had. Geoff. It probably has more to do with what re-sparked the interest in garden >railways in both countries. > >In the UK it is commonly credited to Stuart Browne of Archangel Models >who made affordable 16mm 'scale' live steamers that WORKED in a garden >environment. He had his apostles who wrote in the various model mags >stirring up enthusiasm. Stuart's prices rose quickly, however the baton >was taken up by Roundhouse Engineering, who provided entry level models >at reasonable prices. > >An unsung hero is Tom Cooper of Merlin models who really introduced >radio control and gas firing to the 'new' garden rail fraternity. Most >of his products were sold as radio controlled and I believe that special >order or retro-engineering was required if you wanted manual control. > >The gas-fired boiler provided a halfway house between a plain boiler >and a 'forced draught' boiler. It freed the manufacturers from having >to accomodate flame shields in their designs and was less expensive to >make than an internally fired boiler (whatever the fuel). Roundhouse >followed Tom's lead and eventually dropped meths firing from their >range. > >Tom also introduced 16mm scale on 45mm gauge to the UK. > >In the US my understanding is that LGB provided the spark, particularly >when they started to make US prototypes. > >I stand to be corrected on any of this but I imagine it has a lot to do >with why both countrys went down different roads. > >Sam E > >Bede McCormack wrote: >> >> > From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > >> > I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in >> > the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect >> > that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country >> > may have put folk off. >> >> Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. Setting >> the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, watering and >> oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. >> >> Bede McCormack >> Brooklyn, NY >> >
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Oh yes, and what is less gratifying about preparing and firing up a loco and 8 mins later having a REAL steam engine to use. If you are referring to the traction engine explosion at the State Fair; according to the official report (copy on web), that was down to the owner avoiding having his boiler tested (and thus not having to do expensive repairs) by registering it in another state where the regulations were less stringent. Lesson: steam is safe enough if you do not cut corners. Also not being able to scale nature cuts both ways and both Ga 1 and 16mm boilers are inherently safer than the full sized thing providing they have been made properly. I'd say worries probably start to cut in at 2.5" ga and in 10.25" you really are beginning to enter the realms of full-sized problems, tho I defer to any one who KNOWS better. Best Sam E Bede McCormack wrote: > > > From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in > > the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect > > that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country > > may have put folk off. > > Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. Setting > the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, watering and > oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. > > Bede McCormack > Brooklyn, NY >
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
It probably has more to do with what re-sparked the interest in garden railways in both countries. In the UK it is commonly credited to Stuart Browne of Archangel Models who made affordable 16mm 'scale' live steamers that WORKED in a garden environment. He had his apostles who wrote in the various model mags stirring up enthusiasm. Stuart's prices rose quickly, however the baton was taken up by Roundhouse Engineering, who provided entry level models at reasonable prices. An unsung hero is Tom Cooper of Merlin models who really introduced radio control and gas firing to the 'new' garden rail fraternity. Most of his products were sold as radio controlled and I believe that special order or retro-engineering was required if you wanted manual control. The gas-fired boiler provided a halfway house between a plain boiler and a 'forced draught' boiler. It freed the manufacturers from having to accomodate flame shields in their designs and was less expensive to make than an internally fired boiler (whatever the fuel). Roundhouse followed Tom's lead and eventually dropped meths firing from their range. Tom also introduced 16mm scale on 45mm gauge to the UK. In the US my understanding is that LGB provided the spark, particularly when they started to make US prototypes. I stand to be corrected on any of this but I imagine it has a lot to do with why both countrys went down different roads. Sam E Bede McCormack wrote: > > > From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in > > the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect > > that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country > > may have put folk off. > > Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. Setting > the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, watering and > oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. > > Bede McCormack > Brooklyn, NY >
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
On 12/6/04 8:46 am, "Bede McCormack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in >> the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect >> that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country >> may have put folk off. > > Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. Setting > the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, watering and > oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. How boring - would be even easier to watch a video ;-) -- Tag Gorton Editor Garden Rail Atlantic Publishers http://www.atlanticpublishers.com/GR.html Editor 16mm Today http://www.16mmngmodellers.org.uk/
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
> From: Sam Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in > the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect > that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country > may have put folk off. Actually, I suspect it has more to do with instant gratification. Setting the two-rail engine on the track and powering up beats fueling, watering and oiling 'round 90% of the time over here. Remember Medina OH. Bede McCormack Brooklyn, NY
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
On 12/6/04 4:46 am, "Daniel McGrath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is Aster actually "Made in Japan"? I cannont say, I've never seen one up > close. As far as small production runs, seems that both Cheddar and > Roundhouse are able to do it. There are a few more to be sure. Never say > it's impossible. a labor of love, perhaps but even that could get you > somewhere. Food for thought, you just never know... This has been an interesting thread. Both Roundhouse and Cheddar started some years before the movement of Accucraft into live steam - although Cheddar have only comparatively recently moved into locomotive production. Both provide products that are significantly more expensive than the Chinese built equivalent, but both provide added value in other ways - such as excellent product support and personal contact with the people who construct the models. Cheddar do not compete with the increasingly more detailed Chinese built locomotives, preferring to build simple garden railway locomotives to a very high standard of engineering. I would here refer particularly to fully sprung chassis, gas pressure regulation and fully bushed running gear. Even the cheapest of the locomotives also have gauge glass and boiler fill system. I quite like this because it allows me to personalise and detail my models myself. Roundhouse ARE now building more detailed models with the same good engineering design and well balanced steam plants that they always have always used - with refinements as development goes on. Their latest VoR locomotive is a delightful model which also has gauge glass, boiler fill, whistle and draincock effect. It is, with adjustment for r/c fitting, just about twice the price of the Accucraft L&B Baldwin and therefore SHOULD have sales affected by this sort of imported model. This is however, their best selling new locomotive to date in terms of the order book. The already well developed market for this sort of model in the UK is still expanding and these two firms are both increasing sales despite the advent of a significant range of British locomotives from Accucraft. There are also perhaps another half a dozen builders who supply steam models in our scales who make a living from so doing. I think there are several reasons for this. First of all I consider that Accucraft have actually 'grown' the market here in the UK. One can buy an Accucraft 'Caradoc' here for around 550 ukp and I suspect that this excellent 'first ' locomotive actually encourages people to see the more expensive locomotives as affordable - it really depends on the pleasure that one gets from one's hobby. Here in the UK very few people actually stick to one locomotive and - while initial costs are high, these models hold there price in a way other products don't. For instance I could sell my very first locomotive (purchased about 18 years ago) for at least the same price that I paid for it. Others I have sold for more than I have paid given the inflation of new costs. To put this in perspective think about how much an eighteen year old car would fetch :-) Because of this I buy locomotives as they become more sophisticated and sell on older models without too much of a financial hit and my next steam model will be running number 16 - I don't still own this number of locomotives but from a suppliers point of view this is 16 new sales. The other significant factor I think is that the US market is much smaller for steam locomotion. I can think of around ten garden lines in my scale within a radius of thirty miles of my own and if the proportion of steam buyers was the same then their would be lots of room for at least couple of premium businesses such as Roundhouse or Cheddar. As it is, with Accucraft already established, I think any new startup would need to take a hard look at what people are actually buying - and I would go for quality engineering and longevity every time. -- Tag Gorton Editor Garden Rail Atlantic Publishers http://www.atlanticpublishers.com/GR.html Editor 16mm Today http://www.16mmngmodellers.org.uk/
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
> The only way to beat low-labor-cost manufacturers is to maximize > automation and minimize labor costs so that shipping costs and delays > from overseas negate the labor cost competitiveness of imports. Ahem, so how does any one afford to buy anything when they are either a) out of work b) paid peanuts. Henry Ford recognised this point when he paid his workforce what was a high wage for the day. When asked why, he replied how else were his workers going to afford his cars. I don't know the economics, but I expect Henery went for high volume, low profit margin to make his money. Bean-counters these days won't allow this as the lower return per item is not an 'efficient' use of capital. The relative affluence of the american worker means that companies look to low labor cost countries to maintain their margins and in many cases fat cat managerial salaries. I am surprised a little bit that no Roundhouse clone has sprung up in the US, you have a far greater potential market. In the UK we suspect that high product liability insurance in your highly litigious country may have put folk off. Sam E
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Is Aster actually "Made in Japan"? I cannont say, I've never seen one up close. As far as small production runs, seems that both Cheddar and Roundhouse are able to do it. There are a few more to be sure. Never say it's impossible. a labor of love, perhaps but even that could get you somewhere. Food for thought, you just never know...
>From: Jeffrey Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: Imported steam - can the US compete? >Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:15:32 -0700 > >Wasn't ASTER a manufacturer of mechanical calculators who switched >to live steam locos after electronic calculators took over their >market? In the US, Marchant Calculators Inc. couldn't figure out >what to do with their capability to manufacture lots of very small >precision moving parts and assemblies so made a different choice - >they went out of business. > >Ask Mike ("Cricket") ORourke about the trials and tribulations of >manufacturing locos in the US. This was a labor of love, not >profit, or even break-even. > >Several of us are building John Barrett coal-fired Atlantic kits >from the UK. Mr. Barrett is having production problems because one >of his employees passed away and another has health problems >associated with advanced age. This is not an indication of vigorous >capitalism at its finest. This is an example of some dedicated >craftsmen who do what they do for love, not money. > >When you spend your $4000 at Accucraft for a China-built D&RGW K-27 >locomotive, I'll guess that $3000 of that stays in the US, either in >import duties, taxes, salaries of American employees or profits. >When you spend $7000 for an ASTER locomotive I'll guess that a whole >lot less than $3000 stays in the US. Accucraft is US owned, their >locomotives are US designed, mostly US developed, mostly US >marketed, mostly US retailed and mostly US serviced. That probably >isn't true of ASTER. > >My Toyota was designed in Toyota's California design studio (Toyota >doesn't sell most US models in Japan), built in Lexington, Kentucky >by United Auto Workers from a mixture of US, Canadian and Japanese >manufactured parts. Did I buy an imported car? > >The only way to beat low-labor-cost manufacturers is to maximize >automation and minimize labor costs so that shipping costs and >delays from overseas negate the labor cost competitiveness of >imports. Check out the "imported" tires on your car. The "French" >Michelins on my "Japanese" Toyota are made in the US, just like the >car. The reason that this works is that tires and cars have a very >high production quantity, low profit per cubic foot and low profit >per pound and the manufacture of which can be significantly >automated. The problem with live steam locomotives in this context >is that they are inherently low production quantity and are high >cost per volume and high cost per pound, so the shipping cost >advantage is significantly reduced. > >So here's the dream/fantasy: Paperless CAD design, computer >simulation for development (see Mike Martin's www.panyo.com), 3-D >photolithography to check assembly, look, fit and feel, automatic >electronic translation of CAD drawings to tool paths on machine >tools: Numerically Controlled (NC) lathe, NC milling machine, NC >precision grinder, NC laser cutter, NC sheet metal punch and NC >sheet metal forming tools. Inert gas or vacuum furnace brazing, >instead of torch to make boilers. Capital investment of a couple >million bucks required. Then of course, you still need real (paid >in Dollars) people to paint, assemble, test, decal, package, ship >the product. Now the really difficult question: Can you do it with >200 unit-sized production runs and not go broke? Clearly ASTER is >able to do it. The Japanese worker makes pretty a large fraction of >the salary of a US worker. > >Is it possible for a US manufacturer to compete with foreign >manufacturers of live-steam locomotives? "Maybe" is my answer. I >applaud anyone with a lot of capital and nerve who will try it and >above all, anyone who will regard it as a labor of love, not profit. > > > > >Gary wrote: >>Speaking of buying American, I have Chevy and Dodge van, but since >>our kids >>have graduated from college we are looking over roadsters and most >>are >>imports that catch our eye. Trains, hmmm, let's see, I buy from >>American >>hobby shops, but most is made in Germany, Japan, China or >>Switzerland. This >>is a tough hobby to buy American unless we buy a custom made item. >
Re: Imported steam - can the US compete?
Wasn't ASTER a manufacturer of mechanical calculators who switched to
live steam locos after electronic calculators took over their market?
In the US, Marchant Calculators Inc. couldn't figure out what to do with
their capability to manufacture lots of very small precision moving
parts and assemblies so made a different choice - they went out of
business.
Ask Mike ("Cricket") O’Rourke about the trials and tribulations of
manufacturing locos in the US. This was a labor of love, not profit, or
even break-even.
Several of us are building John Barrett coal-fired Atlantic kits from
the UK. Mr. Barrett is having production problems because one of his
employees passed away and another has health problems associated with
advanced age. This is not an indication of vigorous capitalism at its
finest. This is an example of some dedicated craftsmen who do what they
do for love, not money.
When you spend your $4000 at Accucraft for a China-built D&RGW K-27
locomotive, I'll guess that $3000 of that stays in the US, either in
import duties, taxes, salaries of American employees or profits. When
you spend $7000 for an ASTER locomotive I'll guess that a whole lot less
than $3000 stays in the US. Accucraft is US owned, their locomotives
are US designed, mostly US developed, mostly US marketed, mostly US
retailed and mostly US serviced. That probably isn't true of ASTER.
My Toyota was designed in Toyota's California design studio (Toyota
doesn't sell most US models in Japan), built in Lexington, Kentucky by
United Auto Workers from a mixture of US, Canadian and Japanese
manufactured parts. Did I buy an imported car?
The only way to beat low-labor-cost manufacturers is to maximize
automation and minimize labor costs so that shipping costs and delays
from overseas negate the labor cost competitiveness of imports. Check
out the "imported" tires on your car. The "French" Michelins on my
"Japanese" Toyota are made in the US, just like the car. The reason
that this works is that tires and cars have a very high production
quantity, low profit per cubic foot and low profit per pound and the
manufacture of which can be significantly automated. The problem with
live steam locomotives in this context is that they are inherently low
production quantity and are high cost per volume and high cost per
pound, so the shipping cost advantage is significantly reduced.
So here's the dream/fantasy: Paperless CAD design, computer simulation
for development (see Mike Martin's www.panyo.com), 3-D photolithography
to check assembly, look, fit and feel, automatic electronic translation
of CAD drawings to tool paths on machine tools: Numerically Controlled
(NC) lathe, NC milling machine, NC precision grinder, NC laser cutter,
NC sheet metal punch and NC sheet metal forming tools. Inert gas or
vacuum furnace brazing, instead of torch to make boilers. Capital
investment of a couple million bucks required. Then of course, you
still need real (paid in Dollars) people to paint, assemble, test,
decal, package, ship the product. Now the really difficult question:
Can you do it with 200 unit-sized production runs and not go broke?
Clearly ASTER is able to do it. The Japanese worker makes pretty a
large fraction of the salary of a US worker.
Is it possible for a US manufacturer to compete with foreign
manufacturers of live-steam locomotives? "Maybe" is my answer. I
applaud anyone with a lot of capital and nerve who will try it and above
all, anyone who will regard it as a labor of love, not profit.
Gary wrote:
Speaking of buying American, I have Chevy and Dodge van, but since our kids
have graduated from college we are looking over roadsters and most are
imports that catch our eye. Trains, hmmm, let's see, I buy from American
hobby shops, but most is made in Germany, Japan, China or Switzerland. This
is a tough hobby to buy American unless we buy a custom made item. I don't
think any track is made here other than Sunset Valley
http://www.svrronline.com/ and Laagas Creek http://www.llagastrack.com/. I
didn't want aluminum and I discovered Sunset Valley after I had laid my
track. H & R Trains track is French I believe and far more expensive than
Aristo Craft's China made rail. If LGB can manufacture in Germany and
compete world wide, why can't we in the USA?
If anyone has a list of actually made in good ol USA garden train products,
I would be interested in keeping that list handy.
Speaking of smoking . . . I don't, but club members have suggested when I
move to have a trestle fire. Some want to watch the trestle burn and others
want me to sell or give away bents. I expect a fire would require fire
permits and a pumper truck with engine idling otherwise I would burn down
two or more trees.
Steaming & Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor
