Re: Suggestions for solder??

[xxyz]

There is always more than one way to skin a cat (no cats were actually harmed while 
composing this e-mail).

I'm assuming that you are talking about SAE660 C-932 or CDA 932 (high leaded 
tin-bronze). This material would also be an excellent choice. The machinabilty rating 
and solderability is slightly better than that of CDA 954 (aluminum bronze). I chose 
the CDA 954 to balance out a few other parameters as well. 954 is available in a 
larger range of sizes from my suppliers than 932. 932 is a general-utility bushing 
purpose material and several sources rate 954 as being superior during intermittent 
unlubricated periods. The following passage is a quote that mirrors several other 
references as well.

"Alloy C954 is the most popular general purpose Aluminum Bronze and it is recommended 
for jobs requiring maximum metal-to-metal wear resistance. This tough, hard alloy 
resists wear, abrasion,
and deformation under high compressive loads and when mating with dissimilar metals. 
Aluminum Bronze stock prolongs parts life, cuts maintenance costs and reduces 
friction, galling and seizing
even under temporary lubrication failure. Aluminum Bronze is ranked among the 
strongest and best acid-reducing alloys with good machine and weldability."

For the working bits of a G1 locomotive there are surely several other material that 
would be just as appropriate. I am sure that there would be no working difference 
between these materials as the pressure/velocity ratio at the valve face of our small 
models is rather small compared to that of most industrial bearing application. I 
chose what I feel has the best balance of properties. If my memory serves me right, I 
believe that several model engineering books recommend Gunmetal (Standard Tin-bronze 
such as CDA903) as the material to be used for cylinders and other wear parts. This is 
a lower performing material than both 954 and 932 as far as bearing properties are 
concerned.


Ken




>Ken,

>I have to disagree with you about the use of aluminum bronze where rubbing
>is involved.  I manufacture worm speed reducers and that's all rubbing.  I
>personally have made destructive tests to check on the AGMA's bronze
>recommendations for sliding surfaces.  SAE bronze with a 9% to 11% al.
>content galls both the steel worm and the bronze worm gear.  The recommended
>bronze to use, where sliding wear needs to be limited, is SAE 92.  It has
>lead in it an that's what's needed.
>Arthur
>Mexico City

 

Re: Suggestions for Solder??

[Arthur S. Cohen]

Ken,

I have to disagree with you about the use of aluminum bronze where rubbing
is involved.  I manufacture worm speed reducers and that's all rubbing.  I
personally have made destructive tests to check on the AGMA's bronze
recommendations for sliding surfaces.  SAE bronze with a 9% to 11% al.
content galls both the steel worm and the bronze worm gear.  The recommended
bronze to use, where sliding wear needs to be limited, is SAE 92.  It has
lead in it an that's what's needed.
Arthur
Mexico City

 

RE: Suggestions for Solder??

[Harry Wade]

At 07:57 PM 11/24/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Thanks for the pointers. Especially the note regarding rusting of shop tools
>caused by brazing fumes. Don't want that happening!!

Ken,
Everything about the silver soldering operation can damage tools by
corrosion of some kind.  Getting flux on the fingers, even an invisible
chemical trace, and then touching tools, even after washing up, will leave
rusty fingerprints.  I make it a practice never to do prep and silver
soldering work and then work with my tools and machines in the same work
session.  The worst thing is getting pickle (acid) residue on drills, taps,
and files as this will eat them up but preventative steps can be taken.
The first is to rinse the soldered parts well a soda bath after pickling,
to neutralize the acid.  Then I use a toothbrush to scrub drills, taps,
files, anything that's touched the boiler, in a bath of penetrating oil,
but even so I  still occasionally discover I've missed one and find it ruined.

Regards,
Harry
 

RE: Suggestions for Solder??

[xxyz]

Jim & Harry

Thanks for the pointers. Especially the note regarding rusting of shop tools
caused by brazing fumes. Don't want that happening!!

I chose 945 Aluminum bronze because it very tolerant of rubbing contact with
steels even with intermittent unlubricated periods, it is a material that is
moderately machineable (index of 60) and according to several sources is
good to solder and braze (crossing the fingers). It is also fairly corrosion
resistant. It's commonly used in bushings, valve parts and gears.

Ken


> I note you are using Aluminum Bronze - any particular reason?  I'd heard
> tha Al.Bornze did NOT like soldering or brazing.  Never tried it though -
> just a half memory from somewhere.




 

Re: Suggestions for Solder??

[Alison and Jim Gregg]

Hi Ken.

I agree with Harry - a high Silver content is the way to go.  Minimum 35% 
Silver, prefferably 45 - 50%.   Can't offer suggestions for USA brands / 
part numbers, but Harry's suggestions sound right.

One alloy will usually do it all.   When you make a joint two things happen 
- sone of the brazing alloy evaporates off -eg Zinc and Cadmium (if used), 
so the characteristics and melting point change, and secondly the braze 
material alloys with the parent metal you are joining, and some of that 
migrates into the braze material. Net reuslt is that the alloy forming 
the joint is different to what you started with, and will have a 
subtantially higher melting point than that quoted for the brazing material.

I use a Cadmium bearing material (SBA 245 or 250 by CIG), and so work in 
the open air as Cadmium fumes are really nasty healthwise.

It is always a good idea to do any brazing / welding outdoors - the flux 
by-products tend to cause furious rusting of all of your machine tools and 
other toolls if you od it in the workshop.   Been there done that!

I note you are using Aluminium Bornze - any particular reason?  I'd heard 
tha Al.Bornze did NOT like soldering or brazing.  Never tried it though - 
just a half memory from somewhere.

Jim Gregg

At 08:15 PM 11/20/03 -0700, you wrote:
Hi all,

I would like to get some of your thoughts on what kind of silver solder
"brazing silver" I should be looking to have on hand for the construction of
my "American project" locomotive.
In particular I would like to know if two solders with different flow
characteristics and melting points are preferred for building boilers over a
single solder. Some of the books mention using a high melting point solder
for the early work and a lower melting point for the later assembly. What is
your preferred method and please feel free to give brands and names of the
products you like to use. Keep in mind availability in the USA.
Also, I am going to attempt to produce a "built-up" cylinder "casting" for
the American. I am wondering if anyone who has made this kind of cylinder
assembly can shed some light on the fabrication methods used. Here is what I
have in mind. The cylinder blanks will be silver brazed to a saddle. This
assembly will have the steam passages milled across  the top. A cap will
then be soldered to cover the steam passages. The cylinders will be rough
bored and the steam ports milled through the cap and into the passages, the
passages from cylinder to valve port will be added now as well. The top of
the cap also is the face for the valves. The cylinders will be honed and
valve faces polished to finish.
The question is. Can I use brazing silver with different melting points to
solder the cylinders and later the cap or should I silver braze the
cylinders and use a much lower melting point silver solder to attach the
cap? If silver braze can be used for this assembly can it be the same as for
the boiler. The cylinder material is SAE 954 Aluminum bronze. The valve and
piston material will probably be 304 stainless. I will be using O-rings or
lubricated acetal for the cylinder rings so the only metal to metal contact
is at the valve faces.
I have a lot of experience (albeit 15 years ago) with brazing and soldering
(steel, brass and silver), so I am more interested in the technical aspects
of this kind of assembly and the products used, than I am in the basic
aspect of brazing.
This weekend I am planning to build my brazing table. I picked up some fire
bricks and am going to make a steel frame so the table can easily be moved
and stored when not in use. This will provide a nice fireproof work surface.
I have cut the lower saddle and cylinder blanks. However I think I am going
to remake the cylinder blanks a bit longer so that there is a bit of extra
length to allow for bell mouthing at the ends if the cylinder bores when
they are honed. The cylinders will be faced to length after the honing.
Thanks in advance

Ken
Lafayette, CO

Re: Suggestions for Solder??

[Jeffrey Williams]

Check out

http://www.handyharmancanada.com/TheBrazingBook/bbook.htm

Lots of info on brazing materials.

Other manufacturers of brazing materials will have Handy and Harmon 
equivalent alloys



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi all,

I would like to get some of your thoughts on what kind of silver solder
"brazing silver" I should be looking to have on hand for the construction of
my "American project" locomotive.
In particular I would like to know if two solders with different flow
characteristics and melting points are preferred for building boilers over a
single solder. Some of the books mention using a high melting point solder
for the early work and a lower melting point for the later assembly. What is
your preferred method and please feel free to give brands and names of the
products you like to use. Keep in mind availability in the USA.
Also, I am going to attempt to produce a "built-up" cylinder "casting" for
the American. I am wondering if anyone who has made this kind of cylinder
assembly can shed some light on the fabrication methods used. Here is what I
have in mind. The cylinder blanks will be silver brazed to a saddle. This
assembly will have the steam passages milled across  the top. A cap will
then be soldered to cover the steam passages. The cylinders will be rough
bored and the steam ports milled through the cap and into the passages, the
passages from cylinder to valve port will be added now as well. The top of
the cap also is the face for the valves. The cylinders will be honed and
valve faces polished to finish.
The question is. Can I use brazing silver with different melting points to
solder the cylinders and later the cap or should I silver braze the
cylinders and use a much lower melting point silver solder to attach the
cap? If silver braze can be used for this assembly can it be the same as for
the boiler. The cylinder material is SAE 954 Aluminum bronze. The valve and
piston material will probably be 304 stainless. I will be using O-rings or
lubricated acetal for the cylinder rings so the only metal to metal contact
is at the valve faces.
I have a lot of experience (albeit 15 years ago) with brazing and soldering
(steel, brass and silver), so I am more interested in the technical aspects
of this kind of assembly and the products used, than I am in the basic
aspect of brazing.
This weekend I am planning to build my brazing table. I picked up some fire
bricks and am going to make a steel frame so the table can easily be moved
and stored when not in use. This will provide a nice fireproof work surface.
I have cut the lower saddle and cylinder blanks. However I think I am going
to remake the cylinder blanks a bit longer so that there is a bit of extra
length to allow for bell mouthing at the ends if the cylinder bores when
they are honed. The cylinders will be faced to length after the honing.
Thanks in advance

Ken
Lafayette, CO
 

Re: Suggestions for Solder??

[Harry Wade]

At 08:15 PM 11/20/03 -0700, you wrote:
>In particular I would like to know if two solders with different flow
>characteristics and melting points are preferred for building boilers over a
>single solder.

Ken,
For small scale work, where it's likely the boiler will be done in one
or two heats, only a single solder is really necessary.  Something to keep
in mind is that previously placed silver solder takes somewhat more heat to
bring it to flow temperature a second time so in a way this problem takes
care of itself. Any 45% or greater solder should do fine.  I use Harris
Safety-Silv 45 and Silvaloy A50N, both of which are non-cadmuium bearing.

>Also, I am going to attempt to produce a "built-up" cylinder "casting" for
>the American. I am wondering if anyone who has made this kind of cylinder
>assembly can shed some light on the fabrication methods used.

   This should be fairly straightforward but I'd keep in mind introducing
shallow "channels" between mating surfaces to insure that solder fully
penetrates the joints, especially between flat faces, as completely as
possible.  A good channel depth would be .005" or so.  Dead flat mating
faces, squeezed together, will not take solder well.  You are after all
making a "casting" so you can afford to file relief almost anywhere.  

>If silver braze can be used for this assembly can it be the same as for
>the boiler.

   Probably so, but I'm not familiar with the soldering characteristics of
aluminum-bronzes so I can't say for sure.

>The cylinder material is SAE 954 Aluminum bronze. The valve and
>piston material will probably be 304 stainless.

   I would check the mechanical compatibilty charts (wherever those are) be
sure these material were compatible in hot lubricated sliding contact.  My
feeling is a bit of red bronze or cast iron would be a better match than SS.

Regards,
Harry
 

Suggestions for Solder??

[xxyz]

Hi all,

I would like to get some of your thoughts on what kind of silver solder
"brazing silver" I should be looking to have on hand for the construction of
my "American project" locomotive.

In particular I would like to know if two solders with different flow
characteristics and melting points are preferred for building boilers over a
single solder. Some of the books mention using a high melting point solder
for the early work and a lower melting point for the later assembly. What is
your preferred method and please feel free to give brands and names of the
products you like to use. Keep in mind availability in the USA.

Also, I am going to attempt to produce a "built-up" cylinder "casting" for
the American. I am wondering if anyone who has made this kind of cylinder
assembly can shed some light on the fabrication methods used. Here is what I
have in mind. The cylinder blanks will be silver brazed to a saddle. This
assembly will have the steam passages milled across  the top. A cap will
then be soldered to cover the steam passages. The cylinders will be rough
bored and the steam ports milled through the cap and into the passages, the
passages from cylinder to valve port will be added now as well. The top of
the cap also is the face for the valves. The cylinders will be honed and
valve faces polished to finish.

The question is. Can I use brazing silver with different melting points to
solder the cylinders and later the cap or should I silver braze the
cylinders and use a much lower melting point silver solder to attach the
cap? If silver braze can be used for this assembly can it be the same as for
the boiler. The cylinder material is SAE 954 Aluminum bronze. The valve and
piston material will probably be 304 stainless. I will be using O-rings or
lubricated acetal for the cylinder rings so the only metal to metal contact
is at the valve faces.

I have a lot of experience (albeit 15 years ago) with brazing and soldering
(steel, brass and silver), so I am more interested in the technical aspects
of this kind of assembly and the products used, than I am in the basic
aspect of brazing.

This weekend I am planning to build my brazing table. I picked up some fire
bricks and am going to make a steel frame so the table can easily be moved
and stored when not in use. This will provide a nice fireproof work surface.
I have cut the lower saddle and cylinder blanks. However I think I am going
to remake the cylinder blanks a bit longer so that there is a bit of extra
length to allow for bell mouthing at the ends if the cylinder bores when
they are honed. The cylinders will be faced to length after the honing.

Thanks in advance

Ken
Lafayette, CO

 

Re: suggestions

[Trent Dowler]

Hello Vance,

 Thanks for the verification. Made perfect sense, but thanks anyway for the
offer to post the pic.

Later,
Trent


Vance Bass wrote:

> The Berkeley butane filling extender is much simpler than the adapter SSSM
> sells.
>
> Did that make sense?  I can post a pic, if not.
 

Re: suggestions

[vree]

Fellas,

The Berkeley Locomotive Works "extender" and the longer fill adapter sold by
Sulphur Springs are the same thing.  They are an absolute necessity for
filling the Cricket fuel tank since the cab roof is immobile.  As most of
you are aware, I use Gaz, as recommended by Cmdr. O'Connor, so the Hadden
adapter is must, as well.  I
was grousing that I had bent the fill adapter for my French profile Cricket
when I was fueling at Tony Dixon's this summer, but  Tom King's Cricket fill
extender was even worse.  Nonetheless they still worked.  Since Michael
O'Rourke is
not exactly operating Berkeley Locomotive and hasn't sold it, either, your
best source is Sulphur Springs Steam unless you make your own copper
adapter.

Vickie-Marie
(No, I still haven't painted any of my locos pink, thank you very much!)

- Original Message -
From: "Trent Dowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: suggestions


> Dave and All,
>
>  It's possible that I'm not fully understanding the Berkeley
"extender"
> since I'm not an owner of a Cricket (yet), but Sulphur Springs also sells
a
> longer version of the fill adapter. Sorry, I don't have my catalog handy
at the
> moment so I can't advise on price or part number.
>  If you have any metal working skills at all, you can cut the tip in
half on
> the short version and solder in an extension made of brass tubing to make
a fill
> adapter of any length you need.
>
> Later,
> Trent
>
> Dave Cole wrote:
>
> >
> > >   Would it be possible to make a simple telescoping
> > >tube extension.  Has anyone done this?
> > >I believe by gas valve is the venting type that is found on Roundhouse
> > >engines.
> >
> > our fine friends at sulphur springs steam models (www.sssmodels.com)
> > have a "gas filler adaptor for butane gas cans (threaded camping
> > style cans) -- long neck" which should solve your problem.
> >
> > the most recent price was $17.50; you might also consider getting a
> > "Hadden" style gas filler adapter (a few bucks more) so that you can
> > beg or borrow gas from pretty much anyone.
>

 

Re: suggestions

[Vance Bass]

Trent,

The Berkeley butane filling extender is much simpler than the adapter SSSM 
sells.  The Berkeley thing was just a long piece of brass tubing with the same 
inside diameter as the tip of the butane tank valve.  At one end, there is 
another piece of brass tubing soldered on, sized so its inside diameter is the 
same as the outside diameter as the butan can adapters.  So, you stick the 
extender through the little hole in the cab roof and over the filler valve, 
then press your can adapter into the big end and the extender opens the tank 
valve and carries the butane from the adapter into the tank.

Did that make sense?  I can post a pic, if not.

regards,
  -vance-

Vance Bass
Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
 

Re: suggestions

[Trent Dowler]

Dave and All,

 It's possible that I'm not fully understanding the Berkeley "extender"
since I'm not an owner of a Cricket (yet), but Sulphur Springs also sells a
longer version of the fill adapter. Sorry, I don't have my catalog handy at the
moment so I can't advise on price or part number.
 If you have any metal working skills at all, you can cut the tip in half on
the short version and solder in an extension made of brass tubing to make a fill
adapter of any length you need.

Later,
Trent

Dave Cole wrote:

>
> >   Would it be possible to make a simple telescoping
> >tube extension.  Has anyone done this?
> >I believe by gas valve is the venting type that is found on Roundhouse
> >engines.
>
> our fine friends at sulphur springs steam models (www.sssmodels.com)
> have a "gas filler adaptor for butane gas cans (threaded camping
> style cans) -- long neck" which should solve your problem.
>
> the most recent price was $17.50; you might also consider getting a
> "Hadden" style gas filler adapter (a few bucks more) so that you can
> beg or borrow gas from pretty much anyone.
 

Re: suggestions

[Cgnr]

In a message dated 11/29/02 5:34:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

<< 15% tax. >>
Yeow!!
Bob 

Re: suggestions

[Matthias Warmbold]

Live steamers living in Canada or crossing the border
from the US, could visit a larger Wal-Mart store here
to check the price of butane. In the Camping Section,
they sell 227 g of Butane (cans with nozzels that fit
directly into Ronson valves) for about US $1.50 or CAN
$2.30 plus 15% tax.
 
The only caveat is, one needs good boots to reach the
store walking through snow and slush from the parking
lot!

Matthias
 
--- The Sagers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Trent,
> Thanks for forwarding Patrick's Butane info.


__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com 

Re: suggestions

[Gary]

I buy my butane from Cash & Carry (a commercial grocery supply business that
carries butane for those single burner catering burners) for about $2.00 for
7.8 oz. can if I buy a case.
Gary - Steaming in Eugene, Oregon
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor


Vance and List,

 One subject that comes up every month or so is where to buy Butane. I
saved the message that Patrick Darby compiled (attached below) comparing
Butane
prices from internet sources. Although the prices may be out of date now, it
gives a good starting point.
 Also to be added to the Butane source list should be the always
mentioned
Asian markets, Wal-Mart, camping supplies stores, Army Surplus outlets,
etc.,
etc..
 Hope it helps.

Later,
Trent
 

Re: suggestions

[The Sagers]

Dave,
Yes, I'd like a drawing of the tube.
I also own the Hadden filler and also the screw-on type.
Sorry you didn't understand my problem with reaching my venting gas filler
valve.
It is down inside what is the dummy water hatch on the tender of my Forney.
That is what the 5/8"x5/8" dimension was for.
I did not measure the nozzle length on the Butane cans from my local Asian
market.  I suppose that would be the quickest way to find out.

Anyway,
Thanks for your response and awaiting the sketch!
Vic in CA
- Original Message -
From: "Dave Cole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: suggestions


> At 10:17 AM -0800 11/29/02, The Sagers wrote:
> >Trent,
> >Thanks for forwarding Patrick's Butane info.
> >
> >I wonder though how I would be able to fill my gas tank with one of those
> >Asian Stove containers.
>
> i was with you until you wrote ...
>
> >I have a 5/8" deep by 5/8" dia tube with my gas valve down inside.  Would
I
> >be able to reach it with an Asian style stove can?(They have that
threading
> >collar gizmo attached)
>
>
> ... thread collar gizmo ... the asian stove containers i've seen all
> have direct ronson-style connectors, not the threaded type. primus
> and a few others are the ones that have screw-ons, so you must have
> stumbled upon a supplier of non-standard butane cooking devices.
>
> >   Would it be possible to make a simple telescoping
> >tube extension.  Has anyone done this?
> >I believe by gas valve is the venting type that is found on Roundhouse
> >engines.
>
> our fine friends at sulphur springs steam models (www.sssmodels.com)
> have a "gas filler adaptor for butane gas cans (threaded camping
> style cans) -- long neck" which should solve your problem.
>
> the most recent price was $17.50; you might also consider getting a
> "Hadden" style gas filler adapter (a few bucks more) so that you can
> beg or borrow gas from pretty much anyone.
>
> i also have a butane "extender" that was included with my Berkeley
> Steam Motor's Cricket (the gas tank is in the cab and the roof
> doesn't come off; there's a hole in the roof and you stick this
> little brass tube down onto the ronson valve and put your can of
> butane on the other end of the tube, which has a ronson-like
> fitting). unfortunately, berkeley steam motor is no longer with us,
> but if you had some metal skills i could draw one up for you and you
> could make your own.
>
> \dmc
>
>
>
> --
> ^^^
> Dave Cole
> Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
>Pacifica, Calif. USA <http://45mm.com/>
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> ^^^
>
 

Re: suggestions

[Dave Cole]

At 10:17 AM -0800 11/29/02, The Sagers wrote:

Trent,
Thanks for forwarding Patrick's Butane info.

I wonder though how I would be able to fill my gas tank with one of those
Asian Stove containers.


i was with you until you wrote ...


I have a 5/8" deep by 5/8" dia tube with my gas valve down inside.  Would I
be able to reach it with an Asian style stove can?(They have that threading
collar gizmo attached)



... thread collar gizmo ... the asian stove containers i've seen all 
have direct ronson-style connectors, not the threaded type. primus 
and a few others are the ones that have screw-ons, so you must have 
stumbled upon a supplier of non-standard butane cooking devices.

  Would it be possible to make a simple telescoping
tube extension.  Has anyone done this?
I believe by gas valve is the venting type that is found on Roundhouse
engines.


our fine friends at sulphur springs steam models (www.sssmodels.com) 
have a "gas filler adaptor for butane gas cans (threaded camping 
style cans) -- long neck" which should solve your problem.

the most recent price was $17.50; you might also consider getting a 
"Hadden" style gas filler adapter (a few bucks more) so that you can 
beg or borrow gas from pretty much anyone.

i also have a butane "extender" that was included with my Berkeley 
Steam Motor's Cricket (the gas tank is in the cab and the roof 
doesn't come off; there's a hole in the roof and you stick this 
little brass tube down onto the ronson valve and put your can of 
butane on the other end of the tube, which has a ronson-like 
fitting). unfortunately, berkeley steam motor is no longer with us, 
but if you had some metal skills i could draw one up for you and you 
could make your own.

\dmc



--
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
  Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
  

^^^ 

Re: suggestions

[The Sagers]

Trent,
Thanks for forwarding Patrick's Butane info.

I wonder though how I would be able to fill my gas tank with one of those
Asian Stove containers.
I have a 5/8" deep by 5/8" dia tube with my gas valve down inside.  Would I
be able to reach it with an Asian style stove can?(They have that threading
collar gizmo attached)  Would it be possible to make a simple telescoping
tube extension.  Has anyone done this?
I believe by gas valve is the venting type that is found on Roundhouse
engines.
Vic in CA

- Original Message -
From: "Trent Dowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: suggestions


> Vance and List,
>
>  One subject that comes up every month or so is where to buy Butane. I
> saved the message that Patrick Darby compiled (attached below) comparing
Butane
> prices from internet sources. Although the prices may be out of date now,
it
> gives a good starting point.
>  Also to be added to the Butane source list should be the always
mentioned
> Asian markets, Wal-Mart, camping supplies stores, Army Surplus outlets,
etc.,
> etc..
>  Hope it helps.
>
> Later,
> Trent
>
>
> PATRICK DARBY wrote:
>
> >In case anyone is interested I have made a comparison of the
recent
> > internet
> > sites mentioned on this list where butane can be purchased:
> >
> > South Summit: http://www.southsummit.com/glowmaster%20stoves.html
> > GMF2-- 12 cans butane, 8 oz per can-- $21.95 +$7.97 ship32
cents/oz.
> > GMF3-- 24 cans butane, 8 oz per can-- $69.95 +$12.97 ship  43
cents/oz.
> >
> > REI camping
> >
http://www.rei.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/REI/search.d2w/input?query=b
> > utane&brand=any&min=0&max=999&x=32&y=15
> > GAZ470-- 6 cans butane/propane 80/20-- $33.00 + $2.99 ship  37.5
cents/oz.
> > GAZ270-- 6 cans butane/propane 80/20-- $27.00 + $2.99 ship  56.8
cents/oz.
> > MSR Isobutane-- 6 cans-- $23.10 + $2.99 ship  72 cents/oz.
> > Primus 215g-- 6 cans butane/propane/isobutane--$25.80 + $2.99 ship--57.5
> > cents/oz.
> > Primus 450g-- 6 cans butane/propane/isobutane--$43.49 + $2.99 ship--45.3
> > cents/oz.
> >
> > Lucienne  http://store.yahoo.com/a-zlighters/r1.html
> > 13 oz. butane triple refined   6 cans for $24.00 plus shipping
$7.50(est)--
> > 40.3 cents/oz.
> >
> >  Filling adapters for the GAZ and Primus are friction fit and can be
> > obtained from Sulphur Springs Models
> >   http://www.steamup.com/sulphur
> >  Adapters for the MSR and South Summit butane are screw-on and can
be
> > obtained from Sulphur Springs also.
> >  The Lucienne cans have their own plastic filler spouts.
> >
> > PATRICK DARBY
> > TIMBER & TALLOW BRANCH RR
> > COVINGTON, LA
>
>
 

Re: suggestions

[Trent Dowler]

Vance and List,

 One subject that comes up every month or so is where to buy Butane. I
saved the message that Patrick Darby compiled (attached below) comparing Butane
prices from internet sources. Although the prices may be out of date now, it
gives a good starting point.
 Also to be added to the Butane source list should be the always mentioned
Asian markets, Wal-Mart, camping supplies stores, Army Surplus outlets, etc.,
etc..
 Hope it helps.

Later,
Trent


PATRICK DARBY wrote:

>In case anyone is interested I have made a comparison of the recent
> internet
> sites mentioned on this list where butane can be purchased:
>
> South Summit: http://www.southsummit.com/glowmaster%20stoves.html
> GMF2-- 12 cans butane, 8 oz per can-- $21.95 +$7.97 ship32 cents/oz.
> GMF3-- 24 cans butane, 8 oz per can-- $69.95 +$12.97 ship  43 cents/oz.
>
> REI camping
> http://www.rei.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/REI/search.d2w/input?query=b
> utane&brand=any&min=0&max=999&x=32&y=15
> GAZ470-- 6 cans butane/propane 80/20-- $33.00 + $2.99 ship  37.5 cents/oz.
> GAZ270-- 6 cans butane/propane 80/20-- $27.00 + $2.99 ship  56.8 cents/oz.
> MSR Isobutane-- 6 cans-- $23.10 + $2.99 ship  72 cents/oz.
> Primus 215g-- 6 cans butane/propane/isobutane--$25.80 + $2.99 ship--57.5
> cents/oz.
> Primus 450g-- 6 cans butane/propane/isobutane--$43.49 + $2.99 ship--45.3
> cents/oz.
>
> Lucienne  http://store.yahoo.com/a-zlighters/r1.html
> 13 oz. butane triple refined   6 cans for $24.00 plus shipping $7.50(est)--
> 40.3 cents/oz.
>
>  Filling adapters for the GAZ and Primus are friction fit and can be
> obtained from Sulphur Springs Models
>   http://www.steamup.com/sulphur
>  Adapters for the MSR and South Summit butane are screw-on and can be
> obtained from Sulphur Springs also.
>  The Lucienne cans have their own plastic filler spouts.
>
> PATRICK DARBY
> TIMBER & TALLOW BRANCH RR
> COVINGTON, LA
 

Re: Mike, the return tripAlcohol Stove Fuel/ suggestions

[WaltSwartz]

Mr. Bow Wow Lunkenheimer will be pleased to share a Milk Bone with you if you 
wish to visit the SWAMP RR. 

Re: Mike, the return tripAlcohol Stove Fuel/ suggestions

[Phil. Paskos]

Hi Walt and List;

O.K. on the OJ break. Sounds like a typical college group to me.  The
axle pump sounds  like it might be a good thing after all. Try the little
steamup trick to blow the lubricator clear if you haven't tried it.

By the way, did anybody guess what the BW stood for? My guess is Bow
Wow.
Phil.P. Reading,Pa.




> Phil,
> A retired chemist told me this afternoon that denatured alcohol is kind of
> like buying bottled milk back in the old days. There was no promise then
as
> to the butterfat content. He says denatured alcohol is grain alcohol with
> additives to make it poisonous, generally methanol (wood alcohol) --
trouble
> is, they do not have to specify the "proof," so the amount of water in it
can
> vary considerably. In Grad School I used absolute grain alcohol in my lab
> work, only a few ml per sample, but I requisitioned it in 5 gal carboy's.
We
> had a catch pan with hose under the carboy, soon after opening it the
juice
> started to flow as the pure quill absorbed atmospheric moisture. We were a
> bunch of "health nut" grad students, or so the faculty thought. We took an
> orange juice break twice a day. Guess what we reconstituted the OJ with!!
> The axle pump makes the Mike a decent loco, my water stops only amount
to
> the time it takes to dump another 200 cc of water in the tender. The pump
> seems to be "seating" itself now and will do a little better than keep up
> with the usage.
> As far as the steam oil is concerned, there is steam coming into the lube
> tank, but water does not seem to be condensing. I'll have to figure where
the
> outlet is since this was a factory built, not a kit. If it has a separate
> outlet, it may be plugged.
> I predict that Mike operators will gain about 15 pounds per year if
they
> have the axle pump.  Uninterrupted time for beer intake is much greater
than
> what Ruby operators get, I know, I've got one.
> Keep your steam up!]
> Walt & Lunk
>
 

Re: Mike, the return tripAlcohol Stove Fuel/ suggestions

[WaltSwartz]

Phil,
A retired chemist told me this afternoon that denatured alcohol is kind of 
like buying bottled milk back in the old days. There was no promise then as 
to the butterfat content. He says denatured alcohol is grain alcohol with 
additives to make it poisonous, generally methanol (wood alcohol) -- trouble 
is, they do not have to specify the "proof," so the amount of water in it can 
vary considerably. In Grad School I used absolute grain alcohol in my lab 
work, only a few ml per sample, but I requisitioned it in 5 gal carboy's. We 
had a catch pan with hose under the carboy, soon after opening it the juice 
started to flow as the pure quill absorbed atmospheric moisture. We were a 
bunch of "health nut" grad students, or so the faculty thought. We took an 
orange juice break twice a day. Guess what we reconstituted the OJ with!!
The axle pump makes the Mike a decent loco, my water stops only amount to 
the time it takes to dump another 200 cc of water in the tender. The pump 
seems to be "seating" itself now and will do a little better than keep up 
with the usage.
As far as the steam oil is concerned, there is steam coming into the lube 
tank, but water does not seem to be condensing. I'll have to figure where the 
outlet is since this was a factory built, not a kit. If it has a separate 
outlet, it may be plugged.
I predict that Mike operators will gain about 15 pounds per year if they 
have the axle pump.  Uninterrupted time for beer intake is much greater than 
what Ruby operators get, I know, I've got one.
Keep your steam up!]
Walt & Lunk 

Re: Mike, the return tripAlcohol Stove Fuel/ suggestions

[Phil. Paskos]

Hi Walt:
I just consulted with the local Mike Expert ( Jeff Runge) .We had our
own good steam up today, but more on that later. Jeff goes to Sears and buys
the stuff in green/white can. It's denatured alcohol and is made by
stripeze. He and everyone up here that uses it likes it. It's less than
$7.00 a gallon in these parts. The trick, which you probably know, is to put
what you need in your fuel bottle and immediately recap the can. Alcohol is
hydroscopic and sucks up water quickly. The life expectancy  of an open can
in SE Pennsylvania is about 6 to 8 months.

Take the cap off your lubricator on the Mike and roll it forward after
putting a bit of oil in. It should suck it right up. If it doesn't, close
the throttle (regulator) and get some steam up. You don't need much steam
pressure at all. Block the Mike up so it doesn't roll and open the throttle
with the cap off. Put a rag over the lubricator as you'll be making an oily
mess. That will blow the line clear.

Jeff and I chased each other around the PLS track this afternoon and had
our own great Steamup.  I ran my Roundhouse SR&RL 24 and he ran his Mike.
He runs some looong trains with that Mike. He normally gets about an hour
run on an alcohol fill and I'm not sure how many water stops he makes. Jeff
added the trackside pump in place of the standard Aster pump and pumps a lot
less. He just bought the axle pump, but hasn't installed it as yet. I
finally got a test run in on a recently acquired (used) Catatonk 14 ton
shay. Great runner, but a small boiler means I have to keep checking the
water level.. I've made some decals and the Greenfields Lumber Company is in
business.

Later;

Phil.P. Reading,Pa.




> Hi,
> The Canadian fuel is made by RECOCHEM Inc. Montreal, Toronto, Edmonton,
> Vancouver. "Pure Shellac Thinner"
> Solvent Alcohol
> thinner for shellac based finishes
> fuel for unpressurized alcohol stoves
> water miscible
> bar code 0   56438  133940
> Bob Hekemian sent this to me from NJ. I have not been able to find the
same
> brand here. The stuff I get here is made by:
> United Specialties of America
> USA
> Denatured Alcohol Solvent
> bar code 076590  000911
> I've also used the Ace Hardware brand of shellac thinner, and it is not as
> good as the USA.
> There must be someone out there that knows more about fuel chemistry than
I
> do, am I'm thinking about adding a little kerosene(sp?)
> It was a very common cooking stove fuel up till the early 50's. We had a
two
> burner one that was used mostly in the summer when it was too hot to fire
up
> the wood burning cook stove in the house. OK, so we lived in the sticks in
> Western Pa. and did not have electricity, running water, or indoor
plumbing
> of any kind, and yes the outhouse was damned cold in the winter! BUT, the
> smell of homemade bread baking in a big old wood cook stove is something a
> lot of people have never experienced, and I'm glad I had that experience.
Did
> you ever hear of a double planked house that had no framing?
> Keep your steam up!
> Walt & Lunk
>