Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
Microsoft has been doing XMPP for the last 6 months or so with facebook via an xmpp service running at 'beta.xmpp.messenger.live.com' and it looks like its now public, You can use psi and other xmpp clients to connect but it requires X_MESSENGER_OAUTH2 sasl authentication. Manually specify the host as beta.xmpp.messenger.live.com and connect using username@messenger.live.com
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
connect but it requires X_MESSENGER_OAUTH2 sasl authentication. Is there docs on that somewhere yet?
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On 15 sep. 2011, at 12:05, Kim Alvefur wrote: connect but it requires X_MESSENGER_OAUTH2 sasl authentication. Is there docs on that somewhere yet? It is explained pretty clearly in LiveConnectPrelim.chm, which you can find from http://dev.live.com (you probably need to sign up to access the technical preview). I've been working on getting it to work in Adium, and it appears to be extremely similar to Facebook's OAuth2 mechanism (even their APIs are, to the point where I'm wondering their goal is to allow webmasters to change one URL to change from Facebook Connect to live.com). Thijs
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
15/09/2011, Thijs: It is explained pretty clearly in LiveConnectPrelim.chm, which you can find from http://dev.live.com (you probably need to sign up to access the technical preview). Can anyone with access to that documentation please convert it to a readable format and make it public? Thanks! -- David signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On 15 sep. 2011, at 17:18, David Ammouial wrote: 15/09/2011, Thijs: It is explained pretty clearly in LiveConnectPrelim.chm, which you can find from http://dev.live.com (you probably need to sign up to access the technical preview). Can anyone with access to that documentation please convert it to a readable format and make it public? Thanks! -- David https://xnyhps.nl/~thijs/LiveConnectPrelim.pdf Links seem to be broken after converting it, but the XMPP code samples all link to https://github.com/liveservices/LiveSDK/tree/master/XMPP-Samples, which is still empty. Thijs
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On Thursday, September 15, 2011 02:09:20 AM dmex wrote: Microsoft has been doing XMPP for the last 6 months or so with facebook via an xmpp service running at 'beta.xmpp.messenger.live.com' and it looks like its now public. What do you mean with facebook ?
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
bow chicka wow w-- *AHEM* probably meaning chat.facebook.com. On 9/15/2011 11:00 AM, Justin Karneges wrote: On Thursday, September 15, 2011 02:09:20 AM dmex wrote: Microsoft has been doing XMPP for the last 6 months or so with facebook via an xmpp service running at 'beta.xmpp.messenger.live.com' and it looks like its now public. What do you mean with facebook ? -- -- dyslexic girls just wanna have unf~ -- attachment: coyotama.vcf
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 18:05, Coyo Stormbringer coyot...@gmail.com wrote: bow chicka wow w-- *AHEM* probably meaning chat.facebook.com. On 9/15/2011 11:00 AM, Justin Karneges wrote: On Thursday, September 15, 2011 02:09:20 AM dmex wrote: Microsoft has been doing XMPP for the last 6 months or so with facebook via an xmpp service running at 'beta.xmpp.messenger.live.com' and it looks like its now public. What do you mean with facebook ? Yes, they have apparently the same approach: offering border gateway, to their internal chat system, still running on proprietary protocol. -- Nicolas Vérité (Nÿco) mailto:nicolas.ver...@gmail.com Jabber ID : xmpp:n...@jabber.fr
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On Thursday, September 15, 2011 09:14:05 AM Nicolas Vérité wrote: On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 18:05, Coyo Stormbringer coyot...@gmail.com wrote: bow chicka wow w-- *AHEM* probably meaning chat.facebook.com. On 9/15/2011 11:00 AM, Justin Karneges wrote: On Thursday, September 15, 2011 02:09:20 AM dmex wrote: Microsoft has been doing XMPP for the last 6 months or so with facebook via an xmpp service running at 'beta.xmpp.messenger.live.com' and it looks like its now public. What do you mean with facebook ? Yes, they have apparently the same approach: offering border gateway, to their internal chat system, still running on proprietary protocol. So probably dmex instead meant like facebook ? On first read it sounded like Microsoft and Facebook were interoperating, which is why I wanted clarification. Justin
[Standards] MSN does XMPP
Hi, Thanks for those of you who twitted it: http://www.liveside.net/2011/09/14/messenger-connect-is-now-live-connect-new-apis-for-skydrive-and-hotmail-calendar/ XMPP Interface : You can integrate Messenger into your Web-based, desktop, or mobile instant messaging products by connecting to our XMPP service. It's Microsoft! Quite a sign... but... Now, what we may see is cheating on the protocol, interop risks. What do we have to prevent this? Nothing. Certification is far too complex and costly (for all). Simple tests (like ACID) may be a good way: with public testing and results, it lets the communities booh the cheaters. I think it's the most important task we have now. What is your opinion? -- Nicolas Vérité (Nÿco) mailto:nicolas.ver...@gmail.com Jabber ID : xmpp:n...@jabber.fr
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On Wed Sep 14 18:43:38 2011, Nicolas Vérité wrote: It's Microsoft! Quite a sign... but... Now, what we may see is cheating on the protocol, interop risks. I'd rather assume that any bugs in the implementation are just that - unintentional errors - until we hear otherwise. I hope they do have bugs, mind. If they don't have any bugs in the protocol implementation at all, that'll just make all of the rest of us look really bad... Does anyone have any contacts with the development team? Running some interop tests to help them catch anything would be great. Unusual implementations often highlight bugs in specification and existing implementations, too. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On 9/14/11 12:49 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: On Wed Sep 14 18:43:38 2011, Nicolas Vérité wrote: It's Microsoft! Quite a sign... but... Now, what we may see is cheating on the protocol, interop risks. I'd rather assume that any bugs in the implementation are just that - unintentional errors - until we hear otherwise. Hanlon's Razor and all that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor I hope they do have bugs, mind. If they don't have any bugs in the protocol implementation at all, that'll just make all of the rest of us look really bad... Does anyone have any contacts with the development team? I have contacts. Running some interop tests to help them catch anything would be great. Unusual implementations often highlight bugs in specification and existing implementations, too. Perhaps it's time for another online interop test? I'll commit to helping more this time (last December I was swamped with work on the updated RFCs). Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 20:52, Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im wrote: On 9/14/11 12:49 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: Running some interop tests Perhaps it's time for another online interop test? Perhaps it's time to go further than these interop tests? -- Nicolas Vérité (Nÿco) mailto:nicolas.ver...@gmail.com Jabber ID : xmpp:n...@jabber.fr
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:43:38 AM Nicolas Vérité wrote: Thanks for those of you who twitted it: http://www.liveside.net/2011/09/14/messenger-connect-is-now-live-connect-ne w-apis-for-skydrive-and-hotmail-calendar/ XMPP Interface : You can integrate Messenger into your Web-based, desktop, or mobile instant messaging products by connecting to our XMPP service. Has anyone had any luck viewing the SDK documentation? There's a .chm file and an .msi file, but the former appears to have no content and the latter installs but with no indication that anything has been installed. I'm on Windows 7. Justin
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On 9/14/11 1:12 PM, Nicolas Vérité wrote: On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 20:52, Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im wrote: On 9/14/11 12:49 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: Running some interop tests Perhaps it's time for another online interop test? Perhaps it's time to go further than these interop tests? I'm not disagreeing with that, but I think another round of interop tests would be good preparation for more formal testing at the next XMPP Summit (probably at FOSDEM 2012) and also automated testing at xmpp.org, perhaps leading to certification. The XSF Board of Directors plans to discuss this and related matters at its meeting on September 21, and as always those meetings are open to the public in the chatroom at xmpp:x...@muc.xmpp.org (the meeting will be either at 16:00 UTC or one hour later, I will post again when that's been decided). Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:25:52 PM Justin Karneges wrote:
On Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:43:38 AM Nicolas Vérité wrote:
Thanks for those of you who twitted it:
http://www.liveside.net/2011/09/14/messenger-connect-is-now-live-connect-
ne w-apis-for-skydrive-and-hotmail-calendar/ XMPP Interface : You can
integrate Messenger into your Web-based,
desktop, or mobile instant messaging products by connecting to our
XMPP service.
Has anyone had any luck viewing the SDK documentation? There's a .chm file
and an .msi file, but the former appears to have no content and the latter
installs but with no indication that anything has been installed. I'm on
Windows 7.
Replying to myself. I just learned that .chm files are considered potentially
harmful and by default the operating system blocks loading of their content.
You have to click Unblock in the properties of any such file you care about.
Shows you how much I use Windows..
Details from the docs:
- messenger.live.com is the XMPP domain (there are xmpp-client SRV records
but no xmpp-server).
- login requires using a special SASL mechanism X-MESSENGER-OAUTH2.
- JIDs are {identifier}@messenger.live.com, where {identifier} comes from the
OAuth access token.
- No mention of S2S as far as I can tell, even though the announcement seems
to hint at it: Messenger will now be accessible via XMPP for any application
or *IM network* that wants to interoperate with it. (emphasis mine)
- The docs reference RFCs and XEPs. Very nice. :)
Justin
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 22:00, Justin Karneges justin-keyword-jabber.093...@affinix.com wrote: - login requires using a special SASL mechanism X-MESSENGER-OAUTH2. Is that by any chance http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mills-kitten-sasl-oauth-03 ?
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On Wednesday, September 14, 2011 01:02:13 PM Tobias Markmann wrote: On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 22:00, Justin Karneges justin-keyword-jabber.093...@affinix.com wrote: - login requires using a special SASL mechanism X-MESSENGER-OAUTH2. Is that by any chance http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mills-kitten-sasl-oauth-03 ? I am not an OAuth person but I don't think it's quite the same thing. At least, the docs say to just pass an access token as the SASL payload, while the above draft has a special HTTP-formatted SASL payload. Justin
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
14/09/2011, Justin:
- login requires using a special SASL mechanism
X-MESSENGER-OAUTH2.
- JIDs are {identifier}@messenger.live.com, where {identifier}
comes from the OAuth access token.
Could it be linked to this old, deferred specification?
http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0235.html
Whatever it is, I hope they'll document it at some point.
I'm confident that they will – if they want to allow connection via
traditional clients, it would be counter-productive to force
developpers to reverse-engineer the authentication protocol.
--
David
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On 9/14/11 3:14 PM, David Ammouial wrote:
14/09/2011, Justin:
- login requires using a special SASL mechanism
X-MESSENGER-OAUTH2. - JIDs are {identifier}@messenger.live.com,
where {identifier} comes from the OAuth access token.
Could it be linked to this old, deferred specification?
http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0235.html
No, that wasn't for authentication with the server.
Whatever it is, I hope they'll document it at some point. I'm
confident that they will – if they want to allow connection via
traditional clients, it would be counter-productive to force
developpers to reverse-engineer the authentication protocol.
Agreed.
Peter
--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On 9/14/11 1:49 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: On 9/14/11 1:12 PM, Nicolas Vérité wrote: On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 20:52, Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im wrote: On 9/14/11 12:49 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: Running some interop tests Perhaps it's time for another online interop test? Perhaps it's time to go further than these interop tests? I'm not disagreeing with that, but I think another round of interop tests would be good preparation for more formal testing at the next XMPP Summit (probably at FOSDEM 2012) and also automated testing at xmpp.org, perhaps leading to certification. The XSF Board of Directors plans to discuss this and related matters at its meeting on September 21, and as always those meetings are open to the public in the chatroom at xmpp:x...@muc.xmpp.org (the meeting will be either at 16:00 UTC or one hour later, I will post again when that's been decided). The meeting will be held on 2011-09-21 at 16:00 UTC. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On 9/14/11 3:53 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: On 9/14/11 1:49 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: On 9/14/11 1:12 PM, Nicolas Vérité wrote: On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 20:52, Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im wrote: On 9/14/11 12:49 PM, Dave Cridland wrote: Running some interop tests Perhaps it's time for another online interop test? Perhaps it's time to go further than these interop tests? I'm not disagreeing with that, but I think another round of interop tests would be good preparation for more formal testing at the next XMPP Summit (probably at FOSDEM 2012) and also automated testing at xmpp.org, perhaps leading to certification. The XSF Board of Directors plans to discuss this and related matters at its meeting on September 21, and as always those meetings are open to the public in the chatroom at xmpp:x...@muc.xmpp.org (the meeting will be either at 16:00 UTC or one hour later, I will post again when that's been decided). The meeting will be held on 2011-09-21 at 16:00 UTC. Oh, and for your convenience: http://xmpp.org/calendar/xsf-board.ics Or even: http://xmpp.org/calendar/xsf-all.ics /psa
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
On 9/14/11 3:52 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
On 9/14/11 3:14 PM, David Ammouial wrote:
14/09/2011, Justin:
- login requires using a special SASL mechanism
X-MESSENGER-OAUTH2. - JIDs are {identifier}@messenger.live.com,
where {identifier} comes from the OAuth access token.
Could it be linked to this old, deferred specification?
http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0235.html
No, that wasn't for authentication with the server.
Whatever it is, I hope they'll document it at some point. I'm
confident that they will – if they want to allow connection via
traditional clients, it would be counter-productive to force
developpers to reverse-engineer the authentication protocol.
Agreed.
See also:
http://adium.im/pipermail/devel_adium.im/2011-September/008736.html
/psa
Re: [Standards] MSN does XMPP
Agreed... I would like Microsoft to pass through XEP-0301 (In-Band Real-Time Text). I know that someone from Microsoft's team contacted me inquiring about this; an steps from Microsoft should be encouraged. Standardized tests such as Acid made Microsoft Internet Explorer 9 much more compliant, so I think an Acid style test for XMPP might be an interesting idea. We need to raise XMPP compliance to a much higher level. Facebook's XMPP is also having some interop issues on XMPP, it is rejecting certain protocols, too. Someone would just slap together a standard XMPP testing client that runs on two ends, and tests various XMPP protocols, ranging from simple message deliveries, status changes, etc, to see if the system goes through. The two clients could bounce back results through the clear XMPP messaging channel as a log (simple approach), or would also talk to each other separately (directly or via a trusted Jabber server) to compare notes (more complex approach). Even a simplistic test client (1,000 lines of source code running on a pre-existing Jabber library), could be slapped together by one of us. It would only test just a few tests, and only brief undocumented extension passing (can just be a small amount of random XML data in a message payload to begin with) -- could be our Acid Version 1 to begin with. Mark Rejhon On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Nicolas Vérité nicolas.ver...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Thanks for those of you who twitted it: http://www.liveside.net/2011/09/14/messenger-connect-is-now-live-connect-new-apis-for-skydrive-and-hotmail-calendar/ XMPP Interface : You can integrate Messenger into your Web-based, desktop, or mobile instant messaging products by connecting to our XMPP service. It's Microsoft! Quite a sign... but... Now, what we may see is cheating on the protocol, interop risks. What do we have to prevent this? Nothing. Certification is far too complex and costly (for all). Simple tests (like ACID) may be a good way: with public testing and results, it lets the communities booh the cheaters. I think it's the most important task we have now. What is your opinion? -- Nicolas Vérité (Nÿco) mailto:nicolas.ver...@gmail.com Jabber ID : xmpp:n...@jabber.fr
