Re: Java Server Faces stage?
Summary: I am considering bypassing JSF for XFORMS. Details: Adolfo, I have sent several longish feedback's to JCP/EG, and mostly gotten wait till next release. But I do not see them accepting input so far, true to the reputation of JCP. After calling Ms. Cleo, here is yet another opinion on JSF, with all respects due Craig (my guess is that even he can't get them to change): 1. The reference implementation of JSF, and most that follow, it will likely be non- scalable, and of no use to sites with large loads. As anyone can read the spec., it tends to do most of the rich GUI processing on the server, not on the browser. (Because it might not use a browser?) 2. JSF seems design seems design by committee, where no one said no. It is designed for many exceptions. - It does HTTP and other protocols. - It does HTML and other devices, like the long dead WAP. Thus, I expect it to be not particularly good at any. The design should have been design for the rule, not the exception, so it should have been a HTTP/HTML design. Example where they made it complex is this state management stuff. If you work mostly on HTTP/HTML, there is a more standard way of doing things .* Same as EJB is distributed and cached and local and persistence and does not use SQL, but EQL. As people in project management know, to succeeds on a project, you must be able to say no. (or read about it at why projects succeed at softwarereality.com) JSF is sort of like a design for a submarine that is also a lawn mower. State can be managed just fine as is. See links at: http://jibbering.com/2002/4/httprequest.html 3. http://asp.net/webmatrix/default.aspx?tabindex=4tabid=46 I asked JCP/EG to have a real client that has production web app that have rich GUI be involved in some way. MS I think is closer to being useful, yet again. My guess is that EG is more focused on technology for the sake of technology. 4. Multiple beans on a page? That is not MVC. That means in the view you are creating master detail relationships. In Struts, you have a single form bean. That means that you can create a business bean with master detail processing, or many to many processing and unit test it and reuse it elsewhere, with no code in the view. (you do this by overriding iterators next, and CRUD events in the bean). So not very MVC. Also, it talks a bit about expression language instead of DAO, making it harder to overload/ovreride, which IMO is not OO, thus not productive or reusable. 5. The RI is not open source. Enough said. Right now, Ms. Cleo thinks JSF will be a flash in a pan, and will go the way of EJB. So I will refer baseBeans and MVC clients to stick with JavaScript for now. But I will demo JSF features (and bad Sides) at all my public and private training's. (2 coming up in DC and NYC, and also at each of the training everyone gets a FREE AUTOGRAPHED book on Struts by Husted). So what does Ms. Cleo tell me will win? .NET? Ever heard of W3.org standards? http://www.w3.org/2002/11/xforms-pressrelease.html.en and one plug in http://www.formsplayer.com/introduction.htm As J2EE vendors jump on, see attached and links at: http://www.novell.com/xforms (by SilverStream) * Attached shows drag and drop on XFORMS. I hope you see how this is much more competitive with .NET. Can you do JSF with XFORMS? Not sure, it appears that you would then process 2 sets of events. It takes a lot of change management to switch technologies, and JSF might be in and out, not worth learning. Keep you eye on XFORMS. .V (917) 345 1445 ps: for a preview of new baseBeans.com site see proj.com. It has XML content in DB, and uses JSTL:X tranform to render, among other cool things. Craig R. McClanahan wrote: On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Adolfo Miguelez wrote: Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 16:22:47 + From: Adolfo Miguelez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Java Server Faces stage? I have been looking at glance the JSF Tutorial, at my idea idea, is that Craig, do the things as they should be done. I mean, I large large thought, planning, ordering ideas and short implementation. Sounds goods. Just a set of very well ordered ideas rather that I huge development. Good. However, there is a point where I got worried: it seems (correct me, please, if I am mistaking) that Craig policy is back in server the components running in the client. In Struts, ActionForms back the info introduced in the HTML forms, in JSF, it goes beyond and a whole component behaviour (events, value, validation) is backed in server, e.g. drown-down lists are backed by an UISelectOne class. In simple terms, yes -- UIComponents in JavaServer Faces provide the same server side backing storage for UI state that ActionForms do for Struts apps. However, they are actually somewhat more powerful (for example, you'll be able to choose from different approaches on *how* the state is saved
Re: Java Server Faces stage?
On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, V. Cekvenich wrote: Summary: I am considering bypassing JSF for XFORMS. XFORMS is pretty cool, but this is not an either-or decision. It's going to be straightforward to create a JavaServer Faces RenderKit that uses XFORMS to render the UI, while still allowing the application to program to the standard JSF component APIs. I expect we'll see several implementations of JSF that include support for XFORMS from various folks. Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces stage? (fwd)
(Apache's mail server was hiccuping when I sent this the first time, so I'm not positive it got through. Apologies if you get it more than once.) -- Forwarded message -- Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:30:06 -0800 (PST) From: Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Java Server Faces stage? On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, V. Cekvenich wrote: Summary: I am considering bypassing JSF for XFORMS. XFORMS is pretty cool, but this is not an either-or decision. It's going to be straightforward to create a JavaServer Faces RenderKit that uses XFORMS to render the UI, while still allowing the application to program to the standard JSF component APIs. I expect we'll see several implementations of JSF that include support for XFORMS from various folks. Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces stage?
I have been looking at glance the JSF Tutorial, at my idea idea, is that Craig, do the things as they should be done. I mean, I large large thought, planning, ordering ideas and short implementation. Sounds goods. Just a set of very well ordered ideas rather that I huge development. Good. However, there is a point where I got worried: it seems (correct me, please, if I am mistaking) that Craig policy is back in server the components running in the client. In Struts, ActionForms back the info introduced in the HTML forms, in JSF, it goes beyond and a whole component behaviour (events, value, validation) is backed in server, e.g. drown-down lists are backed by an UISelectOne class. Despite it seems a priori, at nice approach, it makes me wonder, if would it not be a strong burden for the server to respond every event in every client with a new HTML page? Sorry if this question is stupid in some way since I am still understanding the JSF philosophy. Thanks in advance, Adolfo. From: Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Java Server Faces stage? Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:54:26 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Adolfo Miguelez wrote: Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 12:13:00 + From: Adolfo Miguelez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Java Server Faces stage? Hi All, last days I have seen, the availability of the new technology Java Server Faces. It seems a really promissing technology. I have discovered recently that there is already a reference implementation available apart from the specs. I would like to know if if is currently possible to migrate our JSP projects to JSF. Any practical experience to share would be appreciated, It would be possible, but it's just a little early at this point. When the next release of JavaServer Faces is available (sorry, can't tell you when at this point :-), I plan to make available an integration library that makes integration with Struts very easy. I wrote a message to the mailing list several months ago about the strategic relationship between Struts and JSF (and JSTL as well) -- check the mailing list archives for a subject line that included Forward Looking. thanks in advance, Adolfo. Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces stage?
On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Adolfo Miguelez wrote: Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 16:22:47 + From: Adolfo Miguelez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Java Server Faces stage? I have been looking at glance the JSF Tutorial, at my idea idea, is that Craig, do the things as they should be done. I mean, I large large thought, planning, ordering ideas and short implementation. Sounds goods. Just a set of very well ordered ideas rather that I huge development. Good. However, there is a point where I got worried: it seems (correct me, please, if I am mistaking) that Craig policy is back in server the components running in the client. In Struts, ActionForms back the info introduced in the HTML forms, in JSF, it goes beyond and a whole component behaviour (events, value, validation) is backed in server, e.g. drown-down lists are backed by an UISelectOne class. In simple terms, yes -- UIComponents in JavaServer Faces provide the same server side backing storage for UI state that ActionForms do for Struts apps. However, they are actually somewhat more powerful (for example, you'll be able to choose from different approaches on *how* the state is saved and restored), and do not require you to encapsulate all your state into a single bean the way that Struts does. Despite it seems a priori, at nice approach, it makes me wonder, if would it not be a strong burden for the server to respond every event in every client with a new HTML page? JavaServer Faces is primarily a *framework* for building UI components. As such, it needs to accomodate a large variety of client devices (HTML browsers are by no means the only target) and capabilities. Not all of those client devices have much in the way of client side scripting support (consider a browser with JavaScript turned off). Should we design JSF to *require* client side scripting? No, that would disenfranchise a pretty large population of potential users. Should we design JSF so that it does not take advantage of powerful clients? That doesn't make sense either. Consider the creation of a complex component like a tree control where you can expand and contract the nodes. In JSF terminology, clicking on the node to expand or contract a branch would usually be modelled as a request event. It is entirely legal to build a JavaServer Faces version of a tree control in any of the following ways: * HTML only, where the request events are handled on the server side (for amusement, you might want to look at the Admin Application of Tomcat 4.1, which is based on Struts and includes a tree control that works this way). * DHTML+JavaScript where the request events are handled on the client side (so node expands and contracts are totally local) * Java Applet, where the request events are handled on the client side * Lots of other ways I haven't thought of yet. Note that your application logic doesn't care about how this is implemented -- all it cares about is configuring the available tree nodes. It's never bothered by request events, even if they *are* sent to the server. JavaServer Faces has to support server side request events in order to cover the entire universe of possible target devices. But it's up to the component designer, and the RenderKit implementer, to decide how a UISelectOne or UISelectMany will *actually* get rendered. Sorry if this question is stupid in some way since I am still understanding the JSF philosophy. It's not a stupid question. It's a pretty good illustration of the tradeoffs that go into creating a comprehensive framework like Faces. Thanks in advance, Adolfo. Craig From: Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Java Server Faces stage? Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:54:26 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Adolfo Miguelez wrote: Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 12:13:00 + From: Adolfo Miguelez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Java Server Faces stage? Hi All, last days I have seen, the availability of the new technology Java Server Faces. It seems a really promissing technology. I have discovered recently that there is already a reference implementation available apart from the specs. I would like to know if if is currently possible to migrate our JSP projects to JSF. Any practical experience to share would be appreciated, It would be possible, but it's just a little early at this point. When the next release of JavaServer Faces is available (sorry, can't tell you when at this point :-), I plan to make available an integration library that makes integration with Struts very easy. I wrote a message to the mailing list several months ago about the strategic relationship
Java Server Faces stage?
Hi All, last days I have seen, the availability of the new technology Java Server Faces. It seems a really promissing technology. I have discovered recently that there is already a reference implementation available apart from the specs. I would like to know if if is currently possible to migrate our JSP projects to JSF. Any practical experience to share would be appreciated, thanks in advance, Adolfo. _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces stage?
Check this out: http://www.mail-archive.com/struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org/msg08457.html from:Adolfo Miguelez [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Thu, 05 Dec 2002 12:13:00 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Java Server Faces stage? Hi All, last days I have seen, the availability of the new technology Java Server Faces. It seems a really promissing technology. I have discovered recently that there is already a reference implementation available apart from the specs. I would like to know if if is currently possible to migrate our JSP projects to JSF. Any practical experience to share would be appreciated, thanks in advance, Adolfo. _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21placement=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java Server Faces stage?
Been having a bit of a read of the draft specs the last few days. Its very exciting. :-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 20:17 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Java Server Faces stage? Check this out: http://www.mail-archive.com/struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org/msg08457.html from:Adolfo Miguelez [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Thu, 05 Dec 2002 12:13:00 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Java Server Faces stage? Hi All, last days I have seen, the availability of the new technology Java Server Faces. It seems a really promissing technology. I have discovered recently that there is already a reference implementation available apart from the specs. I would like to know if if is currently possible to migrate our JSP projects to JSF. Any practical experience to share would be appreciated, thanks in advance, Adolfo. _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21placemen t=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java Server Faces stage?
I am sure Craig will chime in on this but there still seems a lot that could / will change. If you build a system be aware that there will be changes. Edgar -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 7:17 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Re: Java Server Faces stage? Check this out: http://www.mail-archive.com/struts-dev@jakarta.apache.org/msg08457.html from:Adolfo Miguelez [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Thu, 05 Dec 2002 12:13:00 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Java Server Faces stage? Hi All, last days I have seen, the availability of the new technology Java Server Faces. It seems a really promissing technology. I have discovered recently that there is already a reference implementation available apart from the specs. I would like to know if if is currently possible to migrate our JSP projects to JSF. Any practical experience to share would be appreciated, thanks in advance, Adolfo. _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21plac ement=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces stage?
On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Adolfo Miguelez wrote: Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 12:13:00 + From: Adolfo Miguelez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Java Server Faces stage? Hi All, last days I have seen, the availability of the new technology Java Server Faces. It seems a really promissing technology. I have discovered recently that there is already a reference implementation available apart from the specs. I would like to know if if is currently possible to migrate our JSP projects to JSF. Any practical experience to share would be appreciated, It would be possible, but it's just a little early at this point. When the next release of JavaServer Faces is available (sorry, can't tell you when at this point :-), I plan to make available an integration library that makes integration with Struts very easy. I wrote a message to the mailing list several months ago about the strategic relationship between Struts and JSF (and JSTL as well) -- check the mailing list archives for a subject line that included Forward Looking. thanks in advance, Adolfo. Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
