Re: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks?
How Struts is better than Thinlets.Performance-wise which one is best? Thanks, Sridhar -Original Message- From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 4:59 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks? Craig R. McClanahan wrote: The other evidence is that Struts gets many thousands of downloads every single day ... and support for it is built in (or easily plugged in) to a wide variety of popular application development tools ... SOMEBODY must think it makes a pretty reasonable platform for building web applications. :-) In other words, "You don't get fired for choosing S-T-R-U-T-S." :> -T. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks?
>I now use dbMonster to generate lots of db data and DiselTest to stress >test. (linked on baseBeans.com downloads and cheat sheet pages) Thanks for the pointers Vic. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks?
Testing is allways a good idea! You can validate that the advice is correct, but testing save time in other ways, so do QA, regresion, unit test, etc. I now use dbMonster to generate lots of db data and DiselTest to stress test. (linked on baseBeans.com downloads and cheat sheet pages) As far as benchmarks I did, a PC class machine can do over a thousand concurent users sub second with Struts and a good db (pgSQL I use). As server class machine can do about 2 thousand concruent users sub second. Ex: NewiSys 2100. In testing, you can find that Sun boxes are expensive and slow (also www.tpc.org rates fast machines). One thing Struts helps you with in testing is that it is layerd MVC. So you can just test the speed of your Model only. Or all 3 layers. Anyway, I have done Struts P&T (performance & tunning) and stored procedures is where it's at mostly. Good luck. Sundar Narasimhan wrote: I've been following this thread w/ interest. Thanks for all the posts. Overall, it sounds like your team is likely to succumb to "premature optimization" anti-patterns, and totally fail to understand what is really important about web application design. That's pretty tragic when it happens, because it's totally needless -- most of the things your team is stressing over are TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the end user's perception of performance of your application. They are worried about the wrong things, at the wrong time in the development cycle. Craig -- I think that would be a bit premature. It has been my experience that a lot of IT shops would like to know what kind of hardware to buy etc. (i.e. down to the model number of the load balancer). Personally speaking a lot of it is pre-mature (in fact I've even had one IT manager proudly point out how he got a "fixed price for 90 days" extension from a hardware manufacturer -- firmly forgetting the fact that if you wait 90 days most such hardware will go down in price :), but .. people need guidelines because the lead-cycles organizationally on such architectural decisions tends to be all over the map. One possible approach would be to build a prototype using Struts, and exactly the same functionality using whatever design approach your team thinks will work better. It's pretty much a waste of effort, but some people won't be convinced any other way. I think it would be great if people could post their experiences wrt. performance. i.e. at what point did splitting servers, more advanced containers make sense etc. Personally speaking, I'm going through a major struts based project myself. Things seem to be working well so far, but I must admit that now the load is going from the tens to the hundreds of simultaneous users.. and the latency of some of the accesses are from far away (separated by multiple routers) I'm wondering what our next steps ought to be -- if customers start complaining :) Thus far we've been able to get away with apache + tomcat instances. (The critical piece of our application is one where users sort some pretty large datasets.. which can also be modified by other users.. right now the design reads the db. upon each significant re-sort operation, but paging thru and editing is done entirely w/ the data set cached in session). Benchmarks to me are not only about tee-ing off against alternatives. Benchmarks often tell me what combinations of hardware/software people ended up using, and I often find that useful. My $.02 cents. -- Vic Cekvenich, Struts Instructor, 1-800-917-JAVA Advanced Struts Training and project recovery in North East. Open Source Content Management basicPortal sofware Best practiceStruts Support v.1.1 helper ScafflodingXPress
Re: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks?
I've been following this thread w/ interest. Thanks for all the posts. >Overall, it sounds like your team is likely to succumb to "premature >optimization" anti-patterns, and totally fail to understand what is really >important about web application design. That's pretty tragic when it >happens, because it's totally needless -- most of the things your team is >stressing over are TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the end user's perception of >performance of your application. They are worried about the wrong things, >at the wrong time in the development cycle. Craig -- I think that would be a bit premature. It has been my experience that a lot of IT shops would like to know what kind of hardware to buy etc. (i.e. down to the model number of the load balancer). Personally speaking a lot of it is pre-mature (in fact I've even had one IT manager proudly point out how he got a "fixed price for 90 days" extension from a hardware manufacturer -- firmly forgetting the fact that if you wait 90 days most such hardware will go down in price :), but .. people need guidelines because the lead-cycles organizationally on such architectural decisions tends to be all over the map. >One possible approach would be to build a prototype using Struts, and >exactly the same functionality using whatever design approach your team >thinks will work better. It's pretty much a waste of effort, but some >people won't be convinced any other way. I think it would be great if people could post their experiences wrt. performance. i.e. at what point did splitting servers, more advanced containers make sense etc. Personally speaking, I'm going through a major struts based project myself. Things seem to be working well so far, but I must admit that now the load is going from the tens to the hundreds of simultaneous users.. and the latency of some of the accesses are from far away (separated by multiple routers) I'm wondering what our next steps ought to be -- if customers start complaining :) Thus far we've been able to get away with apache + tomcat instances. (The critical piece of our application is one where users sort some pretty large datasets.. which can also be modified by other users.. right now the design reads the db. upon each significant re-sort operation, but paging thru and editing is done entirely w/ the data set cached in session). Benchmarks to me are not only about tee-ing off against alternatives. Benchmarks often tell me what combinations of hardware/software people ended up using, and I often find that useful. My $.02 cents. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks?
Craig R. McClanahan wrote: The other evidence is that Struts gets many thousands of downloads every single day ... and support for it is built in (or easily plugged in) to a wide variety of popular application development tools ... SOMEBODY must think it makes a pretty reasonable platform for building web applications. :-) In other words, "You don't get fired for choosing S-T-R-U-T-S." :> -T. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks?
On Tue, 27 May 2003, Tin Pham wrote: > Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:16:34 -0400 > From: Tin Pham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks? > > Hi David, Craig, > > Thanks for your replies. I will forward them to my team. > > I made the same points about multi-threading verbally and following up with > research and references for the team. > > They seem to be itching for benchmarks though, so I'll give it to them by > building a single, then multi-servlet app and using Introscope with some > load test simulators. I was hoping somebody in a situation such as myself > already had done it. > That's pretty easy to deal with ... make THEM prove that single instances are worse. Where is THEIR evidence? After all, THEY are the ones that don't get it. :-) :-) > Now the next matter of opposition I'm getting is does struts work well in a > distributed environment for example load balancing. I will post this a > separate thread with what I have told them already. That is almost totally an issue of what your servlet container provides in terms of load balancing support. Struts (or any other app level framework) is going to be pretty much irrelevant to that kind of discussion, because the load balancing support is basically transparent to the application or to the framework. Overall, it sounds like your team is likely to succumb to "premature optimization" anti-patterns, and totally fail to understand what is really important about web application design. That's pretty tragic when it happens, because it's totally needless -- most of the things your team is stressing over are TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the end user's perception of performance of your application. They are worried about the wrong things, at the wrong time in the development cycle. One possible approach would be to build a prototype using Struts, and exactly the same functionality using whatever design approach your team thinks will work better. It's pretty much a waste of effort, but some people won't be convinced any other way. As for evidence that the approach Struts encourages makes sense, you've got your pick of almost every J2EE-related design patterns book in existence. Any of them would be incredibly helpful to you, but one whose binding on my copy is always breaking (because I have it open all the time) is "Core J2EE Patterns" by Alur, Crupi, Malks et. al. (Prentice Hall, 2001). Besides finding out that Struts implements many of the recommended web tier patterns, you'll also learn a lot of good stuff about setting up the non-web-UI portions of your overall architecture. The other evidence is that Struts gets many thousands of downloads every single day ... and support for it is built in (or easily plugged in) to a wide variety of popular application development tools ... SOMEBODY must think it makes a pretty reasonable platform for building web applications. :-) Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks?
They seem to be itching for benchmarks though, so I'll give it to them by building a single, then multi-servlet app and using Introscope with some load test simulators. I was hoping somebody in a situation such as myself already had done it. It's a shame that you're required to do this because an explanation of how Java threading works should suffice. Simply put, it doesn't matter how many servlet instances exist, it only matters how many threads are running through one instance at a time. David Now the next matter of opposition I'm getting is does struts work well in a distributed environment for example load balancing. I will post this a separate thread with what I have told them already. "Craig R. McClanahan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > On Thu, 22 May 2003, Tin Pham wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:09:09 -0400 > > From: Tin Pham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks? > > > > Hi, I have been scouring the internet with no results. > > > > Does anybody have any resources on the performance of Struts applications. > > Any > > benchmarks versus standard development. > > > > One "bottle-neck" brought up by members of my team is the single action > > servlet everything must pass through. Are there currently or going to be > > programming solutions to this? > > > > If your team believes that this issue is a bottleneck, then some training > and a more complete understanding of how multithreading works in Java > might be appropriate -- the fact that a single instance of the action > servlet (and of the actions themselves) has zero impact on performance, > and it reduces memory consumption of your app by avoiding useless extra > copies. > > > For example, maybe we can have more than one action servlet and use a > > different mapping.. ie, instead of *.do, *.jspx ? But then would global > > forwards from the two different actions still work? > > > > This won't work, but not for performance reasons -- Struts supports only a > single mapping to the controller servlet, and only one controller servlet > per webapp. > > > Personally, I argue that we should simply go to load balancing if it comes > > to > > that and adding more servlets wouldn't do much anyway. From my rudimentary > > undestanding of java servlets, other resources will choke on you way before > > the single servlet chokes anyhow. > > > > See above -- the most important factors in webapp performance have nothing > to do with this issue at all. In fact, the most important factors are > typically: > > * Overall application architecture (things like caching where it is > appropriate, but not doing premature optimization -- there are lots > of good books on optimizing server-side Java apps around to draw > ideas from). > > * Database performance (be sure to use connection pooling effectively) > > * Network performance > > * The quality of the code generated by your JSP page compiler > for pages using lots of custom tags. > > Craig McClanahan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks?
Hi David, Craig, Thanks for your replies. I will forward them to my team. I made the same points about multi-threading verbally and following up with research and references for the team. They seem to be itching for benchmarks though, so I'll give it to them by building a single, then multi-servlet app and using Introscope with some load test simulators. I was hoping somebody in a situation such as myself already had done it. Now the next matter of opposition I'm getting is does struts work well in a distributed environment for example load balancing. I will post this a separate thread with what I have told them already. "Craig R. McClanahan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > On Thu, 22 May 2003, Tin Pham wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:09:09 -0400 > > From: Tin Pham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks? > > > > Hi, I have been scouring the internet with no results. > > > > Does anybody have any resources on the performance of Struts applications. > > Any > > benchmarks versus standard development. > > > > One "bottle-neck" brought up by members of my team is the single action > > servlet everything must pass through. Are there currently or going to be > > programming solutions to this? > > > > If your team believes that this issue is a bottleneck, then some training > and a more complete understanding of how multithreading works in Java > might be appropriate -- the fact that a single instance of the action > servlet (and of the actions themselves) has zero impact on performance, > and it reduces memory consumption of your app by avoiding useless extra > copies. > > > For example, maybe we can have more than one action servlet and use a > > different mapping.. ie, instead of *.do, *.jspx ? But then would global > > forwards from the two different actions still work? > > > > This won't work, but not for performance reasons -- Struts supports only a > single mapping to the controller servlet, and only one controller servlet > per webapp. > > > Personally, I argue that we should simply go to load balancing if it comes > > to > > that and adding more servlets wouldn't do much anyway. From my rudimentary > > undestanding of java servlets, other resources will choke on you way before > > the single servlet chokes anyhow. > > > > See above -- the most important factors in webapp performance have nothing > to do with this issue at all. In fact, the most important factors are > typically: > > * Overall application architecture (things like caching where it is > appropriate, but not doing premature optimization -- there are lots > of good books on optimizing server-side Java apps around to draw > ideas from). > > * Database performance (be sure to use connection pooling effectively) > > * Network performance > > * The quality of the code generated by your JSP page compiler > for pages using lots of custom tags. > > Craig McClanahan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks?
On Thu, 22 May 2003, Tin Pham wrote: > Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 00:09:09 -0400 > From: Tin Pham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Struts Performance - Any Benchmarks? > > Hi, I have been scouring the internet with no results. > > Does anybody have any resources on the performance of Struts applications. > Any > benchmarks versus standard development. > > One "bottle-neck" brought up by members of my team is the single action > servlet everything must pass through. Are there currently or going to be > programming solutions to this? > If your team believes that this issue is a bottleneck, then some training and a more complete understanding of how multithreading works in Java might be appropriate -- the fact that a single instance of the action servlet (and of the actions themselves) has zero impact on performance, and it reduces memory consumption of your app by avoiding useless extra copies. > For example, maybe we can have more than one action servlet and use a > different mapping.. ie, instead of *.do, *.jspx ? But then would global > forwards from the two different actions still work? > This won't work, but not for performance reasons -- Struts supports only a single mapping to the controller servlet, and only one controller servlet per webapp. > Personally, I argue that we should simply go to load balancing if it comes > to > that and adding more servlets wouldn't do much anyway. From my rudimentary > undestanding of java servlets, other resources will choke on you way before > the single servlet chokes anyhow. > See above -- the most important factors in webapp performance have nothing to do with this issue at all. In fact, the most important factors are typically: * Overall application architecture (things like caching where it is appropriate, but not doing premature optimization -- there are lots of good books on optimizing server-side Java apps around to draw ideas from). * Database performance (be sure to use connection pooling effectively) * Network performance * The quality of the code generated by your JSP page compiler for pages using lots of custom tags. Craig McClanahan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
