[sugar] pre-alpha release of Deducto
Hello all A new game by the name of DEDUCTO has been developed for OLPC - XO. The link for downloading the game is : http://code.google.com/p/deducto/downloads/list Kindly report the bugs(if faced any) and your reviews about the game. Any help is highly appreciated. Regards Deducto Team ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] naming, was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 10:54 PM, Eben Eliason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Yamandu Ploskonka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Microsoft Word had something that compared looks as a genius feature, that would set as default (editable) name for the .doc document the first few words of the document, which usually is its title. This type of naming is up to the activity authors to provide, since doing something that makes sense depends on the context of the activity. That said, you're right that we could probably do better in many of them. Opening tickets for specific activities would be quite helpful! Write is a good example. Also, by default DOS would add a number when something repeated a name already in the folder, thus at least we would have 'Write Activity 1', different from 'Write Activity 2'. This, and the better default naming you mentioned above, has been planned for a while, but hasn't been built yet. See http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/3900 and http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/3225 for background. Just updated those tickets with a note about how Browse is setting a default title based on its content. Faisal, perhaps you could do a recipe out of it? Do we have a volunteer for doing the same in other activities? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] Activities can't be hidden any more
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activity_bundles#.info_File_Format still says: - quote - show_launcher = yes This key is optional. If not present, or if present with a value of yes, the activity is shown with its icon in the Sugar panel launcher and a valid 'icon' key/value pair is required. If specified with a value of no, the activity is not shown in the Sugar panel launcher, and the 'icon' key is not required. - end quote - However, as seen with Read, since the Home View redesign this no longer has affect. If Read is starred, it is displayed on the favourites view, not respecting the show_launcher field. Mikus and I have been discussing the implications of this for activities which don't generate content and are only useful if launched from the Journal with content (or joined in a collaborative session which provides content). Can somebody confirm that this field is no longer of effect, so we can update the wiki page and expectations, or if this was an oversight, can we discuss what we really want? Regards Morgan ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] naming
Moodle provides exactly the environment you describe: students get assignments via their Moodle course, upload the completed assignment, the upload is associated with the student via the Moodle database, the teacher can review, grade, and comment on the work of each student. The student is identified via their course enrollment and login. This works now through the school server using the browse activity. ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home view
Well, that's beside my point, it's the list view I find awkward, not the various other layouts. - Bert - Am 09.10.2008 um 14:35 schrieb Walter Bender: You should try the sunflower view (or the spiral I describe in the How to Modify Sugar chapter in the FLOSSmanual. (I am rewriting that chapter in light of Scott's changes to favoriteslayout.py). -walter On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 8:31 AM, Bert Freudenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since we're kicking around ideas again ... I have to admit I hate the list view in the home screen. Maybe if it was simpler to switch between the list and favorites view (repeatedly pressing F3 was suggested, but not implemented) it would be less annoying. But right now I find myself just starring everything and using the freeform layout exclusively, which can easily deal with the number of activities I have installed. So, how about removing the list view and leaving that task to the Journal? It's a much more logical place anyway, the list view is basically a filtered view of the activity bundles in the Journal, right? So if the Journal allowed a filter to just show activities we would not need the list view and remove one point of confusion. - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] journal is hard (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
Hi, On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:20 PM, elana langer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3) Basically - The journal is really hard for people/ kids to use over a longer period of time. Kids and teachers can't find things that they did unless it was done within the last 30 minutes. Could you please elaborate on the difficulties that people have when using the journal? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] Home view
Since we're kicking around ideas again ... I have to admit I hate the list view in the home screen. Maybe if it was simpler to switch between the list and favorites view (repeatedly pressing F3 was suggested, but not implemented) it would be less annoying. But right now I find myself just starring everything and using the freeform layout exclusively, which can easily deal with the number of activities I have installed. So, how about removing the list view and leaving that task to the Journal? It's a much more logical place anyway, the list view is basically a filtered view of the activity bundles in the Journal, right? So if the Journal allowed a filter to just show activities we would not need the list view and remove one point of confusion. - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] saving files (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
Hi, On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:20 PM, elana langer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2) Can't save files - this should probably be the first item on my list. It drives teachers and students crazy. They make something in an application, take some pictures or write something and then have to go through a really tough process to find it and save it on an external drive. Can you explain what do you mean by saving files? Which are the problems when trying to find a file? Do you have any suggestion to improve the process? Once the file is found, which are the problems that kids have when trying to copy it to an external drive? Any suggestion? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] host_version
On the subject of activity.info, http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activity_bundles#.info_File_Format has this to say about the host_version field: Each activity.info file must have a host_version key. The version is a single positive integer. This specifies the version of the Sugar environment which the activity is compatible with. (fixme: need to specify sugar versions somewhere. Obviously we start with 1.) I checked activities I have in jhbuild and checked out from git, and of the selection I have, only the following have host_version: ./chat-activity/activity/activity.info:host_version = 1 ./etoys/activity.info:host_version = 1 ./video-chat-activity/activity/activity.info:host_version = 2 ./colors/activity/activity.info:host_version = 1 So this field seems to be generally unused, despite the requirement above, and not used consistently - well, it's not even defined. We now have other mechanisms to influence the activity updater, so should this field not be deprecated? Regards Morgan ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home view
So, how about removing the list view and leaving that task to the Journal? It's a much more logical place anyway, the list view is basically a filtered view of the activity bundles in the Journal, right? So if the Journal allowed a filter to just show activities we would not need the list view and remove one point of confusion. When I install Activities I do so through 'sugar-install-bundle', not through the Journal. In this proposal, I would be left without a GUI listing of the Activities installed on my system. [I believe a customization key does not journalize the Activities it installs, either.] My perception of the list view in Home is here is an user interface specifically suited for the manipulation of activity bundles. I'd prefer to delete/upgrade/install activities through here, rather than through Journal. [The other views of Home show activity labels only with hovering - I have way too many activities installed for me to try to remember what each icon represents.] mikus ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home view
Am 09.10.2008 um 14:20 schrieb Mikus Grinbergs: So, how about removing the list view and leaving that task to the Journal? It's a much more logical place anyway, the list view is basically a filtered view of the activity bundles in the Journal, right? So if the Journal allowed a filter to just show activities we would not need the list view and remove one point of confusion. When I install Activities I do so through 'sugar-install-bundle', not through the Journal. In this proposal, I would be left without a GUI listing of the Activities installed on my system. [I believe a customization key does not journalize the Activities it installs, either.] Well, it should. And using the command line should have the same result as using the GUI. My perception of the list view in Home is here is an user interface specifically suited for the manipulation of activity bundles. I'd prefer to delete/upgrade/install activities through here, rather than through Journal. [The other views of Home show activity labels only with hovering - I have way too many activities installed for me to try to remember what each icon represents.] Good point. The favorites view should be able to show labels, too. But the list view gets in the way more often than it is useful for me (and using activities surely outweighs installing/removing activities by far). - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] re Journal Requirements and preparing kids (was something else)
Hi Tomeu, Thanks for asking. The product manager role is only meaningful if developers and users feel they benefit from it :-) A note on my perspective. So far I have been able to focus exclusively on XO + Sugar Software. I don't think much about other OSes on XO (e.g. Fedora or Windows) or Sugar/XO software on on other HW or OSes. Its all 8.2, 9.1 etc for me, so far. Two points: 1 - On your question of preparing kids for using computers, that has come up. It's usually in the context of the need for Windows. That is, many decision makers seem to think that learning to use Windows is an important skill to prepare people for jobs which use computers. We can try to dissuade them by pointing to Linux as the future or explaining that understanding computers is the central idea and transferable to any OS (no matter how abstracted the processes and file system :-). The main idea that the purpose of XOs is to teach kids about computers is something I think many on this list ascribe to. Others (e.g. me) look at XOs as more of a tool to learn whatever the kids want to learn, be it computers or animal husbandry or theology or whatever. Most people probably want to see some of both. FYI for earlier comment on this, see Design section of this page: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Learning_Vision and my comment on it: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Learning_Vision#Very_Inspirational I'll give one example. I heard of a small country where a trial deployment was to be funded by a large corporation. The company uses Windows and .Net. One of their goals was to find and train the bright kids who would become their future programmers so they were interested in Windows. They have other more altruistic goals too so everyone can benefit, but it gives you a sense of how this goal of learning computers is motivated. 2 - On the Journal design. I think we are closing in on a rough consensus for goals of an updated Journal. The last piece will be the hardest but let me see if we have agreement on the first two points. a - Journal/datastore must not lose data due to bugs or errors. If the user meant to save, or some part of the OS meant to save the data must be saved! I think/hope everyone is on board with that one. b - We should allow access to the file system directly. This is the point most adamantly express by John Gilmore (btw there was a round of applause by some engineers in the office on reading that one morning :-). That is, the Journal should show the full path and file name to every file. Should probably show the size and maybe other file attributes too. The file names should be human readable and accessible easily by applications and by terminal commands. It doesn't have to be the only way to see files in the GUI but it has to be easily available. That is the main way we address the question: will kids learn to use computers by having an XO? Not sure we have consensus on that but I think we are close. c - We should allow access to files via other paradigms, tags, search tools etc. This is where I think we have the most work to do. I look forward to Scott's proposal and more discussion. I said previously that I hadn't heard the need for this from the field. Elana and Erik have given solid, end user motivated feedback that ~its hard to find stuff in the Journal so I'm completely on board now. Making that better is where I think we can add the most value. Any DOS machine in the last 25 years can do the first two. IMHO point c is where we can break new ground and lead the industry. Especially if we come up with something that really resonates and works for kids and teachers. HTHs. Let's nail down point a and b above as must have, baseline functionality for 9.1. Then let's kick around as many ideas for point c as we can until we find a clear winner. Thanks, Greg S Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:16:14 +0200 From: Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [sugar] sugar and the digital age (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia) To: elana langer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: iaep [EMAIL PROTECTED], OLPC Devel [EMAIL PROTECTED],Sugar Mailing List sugar@lists.laptop.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Elana, On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:48 PM, elana langer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: d) Although I think building a tagging tool around kids natural ways of thinking is really exciting, most teachers/schools/gov'ts are really concerned that this OS isn't preparing kids for the digital age properly. Most people feel it is important the computer meet some simple expectations that are common and understandable practices on any OS - like having files that can be saved and accessed in a simple place for example. could you elaborate on what means for teachers/schools/govts to prepare kids for the digital age? It may be that we are not giving enough importance to that requirement (?).
Re: [sugar] Home view
Maybe the list view belongs as part of the Sugar Control Panel. -walter On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:45 AM, Bert Freudenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am 09.10.2008 um 14:20 schrieb Mikus Grinbergs: So, how about removing the list view and leaving that task to the Journal? It's a much more logical place anyway, the list view is basically a filtered view of the activity bundles in the Journal, right? So if the Journal allowed a filter to just show activities we would not need the list view and remove one point of confusion. When I install Activities I do so through 'sugar-install-bundle', not through the Journal. In this proposal, I would be left without a GUI listing of the Activities installed on my system. [I believe a customization key does not journalize the Activities it installs, either.] Well, it should. And using the command line should have the same result as using the GUI. My perception of the list view in Home is here is an user interface specifically suited for the manipulation of activity bundles. I'd prefer to delete/upgrade/install activities through here, rather than through Journal. [The other views of Home show activity labels only with hovering - I have way too many activities installed for me to try to remember what each icon represents.] Good point. The favorites view should be able to show labels, too. But the list view gets in the way more often than it is useful for me (and using activities surely outweighs installing/removing activities by far). - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home view
Excellent idea. - Bert - Am 09.10.2008 um 16:13 schrieb Walter Bender: Maybe the list view belongs as part of the Sugar Control Panel. -walter On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:45 AM, Bert Freudenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am 09.10.2008 um 14:20 schrieb Mikus Grinbergs: So, how about removing the list view and leaving that task to the Journal? It's a much more logical place anyway, the list view is basically a filtered view of the activity bundles in the Journal, right? So if the Journal allowed a filter to just show activities we would not need the list view and remove one point of confusion. When I install Activities I do so through 'sugar-install-bundle', not through the Journal. In this proposal, I would be left without a GUI listing of the Activities installed on my system. [I believe a customization key does not journalize the Activities it installs, either.] Well, it should. And using the command line should have the same result as using the GUI. My perception of the list view in Home is here is an user interface specifically suited for the manipulation of activity bundles. I'd prefer to delete/upgrade/install activities through here, rather than through Journal. [The other views of Home show activity labels only with hovering - I have way too many activities installed for me to try to remember what each icon represents.] Good point. The favorites view should be able to show labels, too. But the list view gets in the way more often than it is useful for me (and using activities surely outweighs installing/removing activities by far). - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [IAEP] Narrative.
Bill, Here's a short dialogue between myself, Ben Schwartz, Martin Dengler, and Bobby Powers on my interpretation of narrative as it might apply to a user interface designed for engaging children in the world of learning: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Mstone/Commentaries/Sugar_2 === Highlights * By narrative, I mean a rational sequence (or graph) of events. * It's rather hard to use XOs to prepare direct lessons. By direct lesson, I mean a guided learning experience, usable in variable network conditions, which minimizes the amount of decision-making and navigation that the end-user needs to perform in order to experience 'the whole thing' regardless of what software implements each individual experience contained in the lesson. === Toy Problem Concretely, suppose I invent a new Python trick like the ones at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Mstone/Tricks How might a prepare a slick explanation for an inexperienced user? * I might write up a web page for my trick, then write a Pippy bundle showing off the trick in a toy program, then give a pointer to a git repo containing an instance of the trick in 'production'. Question: How do I write web pages on an XO? Question: Do I have to be able to read in order to find and run the Pippy bundle? * I might write up a larger Pippy example for my trick in the literate style. I might also create a puzzle revolving around integrating the trick into some sample code. I might include links to 'advanced reading' or more examples in comments in the source code. Question: Pippy doesn't know anything about hyperlinks. Will my readers? Question: I must either comment out my puzzle so that the example can run or I must provide it in a separate bundle. How many users would figure out how to try both the example and the puzzle? * While not obviously applicable to this specific example, two other common solutions to this sort of problem include the scripted transitions between freeform experiences idea common to wizards and role-playing games and the 'build a custom but user-editable program' idea underlying most EToys lessons. === Larger Concerns Since Sugar is strongly concerned with UI unification, it's worth spending more time thinking about how well each of the solutions to your favorite toy problem integrates with encompassing narratives of reflection, criticism, and human collaboration. (None of the solutions I've proposed above satisfy me in any of these regards.) In any case, I hope this followup helps explain the motivation and 'line-of-thought' behind my initial email. Please discuss. Regards, Michael ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] sugar and the digital age (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
Hi Elana, On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:48 PM, elana langer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: d) Although I think building a tagging tool around kids natural ways of thinking is really exciting, most teachers/schools/gov'ts are really concerned that this OS isn't preparing kids for the digital age properly. Most people feel it is important the computer meet some simple expectations that are common and understandable practices on any OS - like having files that can be saved and accessed in a simple place for example. could you elaborate on what means for teachers/schools/govts to prepare kids for the digital age? It may be that we are not giving enough importance to that requirement (?). [All: this topic is very broad and maybe controversial, please try to keep the threads focused and spawn new ones when needed] Greg, as OLPC's product manager, are we missing anything on that aspect? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] Slowness (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
Hi Elana, you have brought a very needed point of view to this list. Let me try to start the process of translating your experience to actionable items. On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:20 PM, elana langer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) Computers are slow - So I was in a Ger in the west part of Mongolia and I thought I would show the computer to the family that was hosting me. The husband, wife and 8 year old child huddled around the computer and pressed the on button. Instead of being delighted by the computer they waited, and waited for the computer to load. I asked them in broken monoglian to be patient but once the computer loaded they wanted to open an application and again more waiting. The 8 year old lost interest as did the mom and only the man of the house stuck around to try things. This is not a unique experience. This is a culture that lives close to the land. Action- reaction. No one is used to waiting for an computer to load or a bagel to toast for that matter. (of course cooking takes time but they can watch as it changes form not just an unmoving screen) In the city the experience is worse. Kids used to PCs quickly grow impatient and leave the XO to find other faster computers. First, I would like to note that you are talking about perceived slowness, not the absolute time that takes to do anything. So to solve the issues you mentioned, we need to give a sense to the user that something is happening and, when possible, how much time it will take to finish, in case reducing the time it takes is too expensive resource-wise. Second, you talk about boot time and activity launch time. Is there any other action in the laptop that causes problems because of its slowness? And third, both booting and activity launching performance are known problems and some improvements already happened in the last stable release, 8.2.0. Do you think you could do some experiments with that release and see if things have improved and if so, how much? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home view
You should try the sunflower view (or the spiral I describe in the How to Modify Sugar chapter in the FLOSSmanual. (I am rewriting that chapter in light of Scott's changes to favoriteslayout.py). -walter On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 8:31 AM, Bert Freudenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since we're kicking around ideas again ... I have to admit I hate the list view in the home screen. Maybe if it was simpler to switch between the list and favorites view (repeatedly pressing F3 was suggested, but not implemented) it would be less annoying. But right now I find myself just starring everything and using the freeform layout exclusively, which can easily deal with the number of activities I have installed. So, how about removing the list view and leaving that task to the Journal? It's a much more logical place anyway, the list view is basically a filtered view of the activity bundles in the Journal, right? So if the Journal allowed a filter to just show activities we would not need the list view and remove one point of confusion. - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Activities can't be hidden any more
Am 09.10.2008 um 11:20 schrieb Tomeu Vizoso: On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Morgan Collett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activity_bundles#.info_File_Format still says: - quote - show_launcher = yes This key is optional. If not present, or if present with a value of yes, the activity is shown with its icon in the Sugar panel launcher and a valid 'icon' key/value pair is required. If specified with a value of no, the activity is not shown in the Sugar panel launcher, and the 'icon' key is not required. - end quote - However, as seen with Read, since the Home View redesign this no longer has affect. If Read is starred, it is displayed on the favourites view, not respecting the show_launcher field. Mikus and I have been discussing the implications of this for activities which don't generate content and are only useful if launched from the Journal with content (or joined in a collaborative session which provides content). Can somebody confirm that this field is no longer of effect, so we can update the wiki page and expectations, or if this was an oversight, can we discuss what we really want? I don't really know what's the expected behavior after the home view redesign. Taking it out from the favorites view is pretty easy, but the activity can still be launched form the activity list view and the journal which has the same problems. I guess the activity needs to be visible in those places because are the way of managing the bundle. I have an idea :) When you click the icon of an activity marked as no-launch, the shell/ journal could bring up the object chooser pre-filtered by the activity's supported mime-types. Then the user could choose which object to read or view, and the activity would be started with that object. This could actually be an entry in the palette for all activities that have a non-empty list of mime-types (labeled Start with ..., inserted just below the current Start). If that was the case, then the only difference between a regular and a no-launch activity would be the default action invoked when clicking the icon, regular activities would invoke Start, the others Start with Of course, we might deprecate the show_launcher option and rename it to something else to better convey its intention (requires-document?). The shell (and bundle builder) should generate a warning when installing an activity that is marked as no-launch but has an empty mime-type list. - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Activities can't be hidden any more
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Morgan Collett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activity_bundles#.info_File_Format still says: - quote - show_launcher = yes This key is optional. If not present, or if present with a value of yes, the activity is shown with its icon in the Sugar panel launcher and a valid 'icon' key/value pair is required. If specified with a value of no, the activity is not shown in the Sugar panel launcher, and the 'icon' key is not required. - end quote - However, as seen with Read, since the Home View redesign this no longer has affect. If Read is starred, it is displayed on the favourites view, not respecting the show_launcher field. Mikus and I have been discussing the implications of this for activities which don't generate content and are only useful if launched from the Journal with content (or joined in a collaborative session which provides content). Can somebody confirm that this field is no longer of effect, so we can update the wiki page and expectations, or if this was an oversight, can we discuss what we really want? I don't really know what's the expected behavior after the home view redesign. Taking it out from the favorites view is pretty easy, but the activity can still be launched form the activity list view and the journal which has the same problems. I guess the activity needs to be visible in those places because are the way of managing the bundle. Eben, can you comment? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [IAEP] Narrative.
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:57 PM, Michael Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill, Here's a short dialogue between myself, Ben Schwartz, Martin Dengler, and Bobby Powers on my interpretation of narrative as it might apply to a user interface designed for engaging children in the world of learning: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Mstone/Commentaries/Sugar_2 My favorite part was the end: bemasc making content bundles work better sounds very valuable. We certainly don't provide nice content creation tools. I heartily agree that this is an area in which improvements are worth pursuing. m_stone lovely. now if only you weren't in engaged in pursuit of further education... :) bemasc right. === Highlights * By narrative, I mean a rational sequence (or graph) of events. * It's rather hard to use XOs to prepare direct lessons. By direct lesson, I mean a guided learning experience, usable in variable network conditions, which minimizes the amount of decision-making and navigation that the end-user needs to perform in order to experience 'the whole thing' regardless of what software implements each individual experience contained in the lesson. === Toy Problem Concretely, suppose I invent a new Python trick like the ones at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Mstone/Tricks How might a prepare a slick explanation for an inexperienced user? * I might write up a web page for my trick, then write a Pippy bundle showing off the trick in a toy program, then give a pointer to a git repo containing an instance of the trick in 'production'. Question: How do I write web pages on an XO? Question: Do I have to be able to read in order to find and run the Pippy bundle? * I might write up a larger Pippy example for my trick in the literate style. I might also create a puzzle revolving around integrating the trick into some sample code. I might include links to 'advanced reading' or more examples in comments in the source code. Question: Pippy doesn't know anything about hyperlinks. Will my readers? Question: I must either comment out my puzzle so that the example can run or I must provide it in a separate bundle. How many users would figure out how to try both the example and the puzzle? * While not obviously applicable to this specific example, two other common solutions to this sort of problem include the scripted transitions between freeform experiences idea common to wizards and role-playing games and the 'build a custom but user-editable program' idea underlying most EToys lessons. === Larger Concerns Since Sugar is strongly concerned with UI unification, it's worth spending more time thinking about how well each of the solutions to your favorite toy problem integrates with encompassing narratives of reflection, criticism, and human collaboration. (None of the solutions I've proposed above satisfy me in any of these regards.) In any case, I hope this followup helps explain the motivation and 'line-of-thought' behind my initial email. Please discuss. Regards, Michael ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar So, how about (1) a way of creating content bundles with journal content created on the XO, and (2) a way of transferring these bundles and journal items from XO -- XO without having to use a USB key? Does (2) currently exist (outside of terminal), by the way? Could (1) and (2) be done as activities? Regards, Brian ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [IAEP] Narrative.
Brian Jordan wrote: My favorite part was the end: bemasc making content bundles work better sounds very valuable. We certainly don't provide nice content creation tools. I heartily agree that this is an area in which improvements are worth pursuing. Quite some time ago we presented Sophie (http://opensophie.org) at OLPC. but despite initial interest we never got anywhere. Part of the problem back then was the lack of resources/funding to support the work needed to sugarize and streamline Sophie to run reasonably well on the OLPC. We did, however, adapt the UI look to Sugar :-) Michael ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home view
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:45 AM, Bert Freudenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am 09.10.2008 um 14:20 schrieb Mikus Grinbergs: So, how about removing the list view and leaving that task to the Journal? It's a much more logical place anyway, the list view is basically a filtered view of the activity bundles in the Journal, right? So if the Journal allowed a filter to just show activities we would not need the list view and remove one point of confusion. When I install Activities I do so through 'sugar-install-bundle', not through the Journal. In this proposal, I would be left without a GUI listing of the Activities installed on my system. [I believe a customization key does not journalize the Activities it installs, either.] Well, it should. And using the command line should have the same result as using the GUI. My perception of the list view in Home is here is an user interface specifically suited for the manipulation of activity bundles. I'd prefer to delete/upgrade/install activities through here, rather than through Journal. [The other views of Home show activity labels only with hovering - I have way too many activities installed for me to try to remember what each icon represents.] Good point. The favorites view should be able to show labels, too. But the list view gets in the way more often than it is useful for me (and using activities surely outweighs installing/removing activities by far). I'm curious how it gets in the way. If you don't like it, you needn't ever go there, right? Newly installed activities should be starred by default. (I acknowledge the bug you bring up in which that's not true via all installation methods.) I think the list is useful for (extreme) scalability reasons, to see the title, date, and perhaps later other information (versions, author, etc) directly in the view, and simply as an accessibility solution. More importantly, the Home view is the first to receive the treatment, but for 9.1 all zoom levels will have list views. It's particularly important in the Neighborhood, where the freeform layout will only be able to show a subset of the available information. Switching to the list, however, will provide a neatly categorized and sorted view of all the available people access points, and activities, which can be scrolled or filtered. - Eben - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [IAEP] Narrative.
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Brian Jordan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:57 PM, Michael Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill, Here's a short dialogue between myself, Ben Schwartz, Martin Dengler, and Bobby Powers on my interpretation of narrative as it might apply to a user interface designed for engaging children in the world of learning: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Mstone/Commentaries/Sugar_2 My favorite part was the end: bemasc making content bundles work better sounds very valuable. We certainly don't provide nice content creation tools. I heartily agree that this is an area in which improvements are worth pursuing. m_stone lovely. now if only you weren't in engaged in pursuit of further education... :) bemasc right. === Highlights * By narrative, I mean a rational sequence (or graph) of events. * It's rather hard to use XOs to prepare direct lessons. By direct lesson, I mean a guided learning experience, usable in variable network conditions, which minimizes the amount of decision-making and navigation that the end-user needs to perform in order to experience 'the whole thing' regardless of what software implements each individual experience contained in the lesson. === Toy Problem Concretely, suppose I invent a new Python trick like the ones at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Mstone/Tricks How might a prepare a slick explanation for an inexperienced user? * I might write up a web page for my trick, then write a Pippy bundle showing off the trick in a toy program, then give a pointer to a git repo containing an instance of the trick in 'production'. Question: How do I write web pages on an XO? Question: Do I have to be able to read in order to find and run the Pippy bundle? * I might write up a larger Pippy example for my trick in the literate style. I might also create a puzzle revolving around integrating the trick into some sample code. I might include links to 'advanced reading' or more examples in comments in the source code. Question: Pippy doesn't know anything about hyperlinks. Will my readers? Question: I must either comment out my puzzle so that the example can run or I must provide it in a separate bundle. How many users would figure out how to try both the example and the puzzle? * While not obviously applicable to this specific example, two other common solutions to this sort of problem include the scripted transitions between freeform experiences idea common to wizards and role-playing games and the 'build a custom but user-editable program' idea underlying most EToys lessons. === Larger Concerns Since Sugar is strongly concerned with UI unification, it's worth spending more time thinking about how well each of the solutions to your favorite toy problem integrates with encompassing narratives of reflection, criticism, and human collaboration. (None of the solutions I've proposed above satisfy me in any of these regards.) In any case, I hope this followup helps explain the motivation and 'line-of-thought' behind my initial email. Please discuss. Regards, Michael ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar So, how about (1) a way of creating content bundles with journal content created on the XO, and (2) a way of transferring these bundles and journal items from XO -- XO without having to use a USB key? We've always envisioned (1) as an activity (The Bundle activity, in fact), which would serve both as a way of creating and managing activity and content bundles, as well as provide a generic tool for inspecting , modifying, or creating various type of archived format (zip, tar, gz, etc). Also, please note that Lewis Barnett (CC'd), a professor from the University of Richmond, has adopted this project and is working on it as a class initiative. I had a teleconference with some of his students several weeks ago to discuss initial details, and I'm excited about what we can accomplish with them. I haven't heard from them since, and I'm not sure if a project has been setup for them yet. Perhaps you could give us a breif status update, Lewis? Thanks! (2) Should be handled like any other object transfer between XOs, which hasn't been built yet, but is certainly on the list of needed features. There is, of course, special consideration to be given to the passing of activity bundles, a la the former discussions on implicit sharing, trusted code, etc. - Eben Does (2) currently exist (outside of terminal), by the way? Could (1) and (2) be done as activities? Regards, Brian ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar ___ Sugar
[sugar] Cross posting
I notice there's considerable cross posting occuring to the sugar and devel lists. Perhaps they should be merged? Philippe -- The trouble with common sense is that it is so uncommon. Anonymous ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] Sugar datastore model
There is a use case that concerns me at the moment: 1. An activity that allows a student to build a slideshow with music and voice tracks based on images taken with the XO camera (as well as png, svg, jpg from the internet or school library). How does the activity find available images on their XO to show as thumbnails? How does the activity find available sound files (mp3, ogg) for the student to choose for the sound tracks. Assume the activity builds a SMIL file to specify the slideshow. How does the activity generate persistent links to the image and sound files for later playback? 2. Extend the above scenario to one in which a group of students collaborate to create a slideshow based on pictures and sound files they have on their own XOs. Suppose they pool their files into a commons. Does the commons consist of links to the files in their original locations (on different XOs)? Does the commons consist to files copied to the school server? How are persistent links from the SMIL file maintained in either case? 3. Suppose a student wants to take his XO home to show the collaborative slideshow to his parents. How does he/she request that the files referenced by the SMIL file be copied to his XO? 4. How does a student know how much of his Nand is used/free? How can some/all of his files be moved to the schoolserver. What impact does this have on persistent links to these files? Tony ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] 0.84/9.1 planning.
OLPC needs to work out its priorities and goals for 9.1. Sugarlabs needs to do the same for 0.84. We should do it together! I suggest that sugarlabs organize an 0.84 planning meeting, to be held at the same time/place as OLPC's 9.1 planning meeting in November. My understanding is that SJ is planning the 9.1 meeting -- which will hopefully be held at the same time as some learning team presentations by folks in the field, so all of us techie types get a chance to cross-pollinate and mingle with the teachers and education experts using our software in the field, and vice versa. I suggest that sugarlabs appoint its own 0.84 planning conference committee and have them coordinate with SJ to make our joint planning as broad in its scope as possible. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Cross posting
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Philippe Clérié [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I notice there's considerable cross posting occuring to the sugar and devel lists. Perhaps they should be merged? There's a subset relationship: often sugar stuff is relevant to general developers, but there's also (say) linux kernel stuff which isn't of interest to sugar GUI hackers on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Historically, I think GUI-only stuff has stayed on sugar@, and only gets cross-posted when it touches core system issues. Many people subscribe to both, and have sane email clients which suppress the duplicates. I use gmail, and rely on the 'sugar' tag to give me a summary overview that the indicated message has something related to the UI in it. I don't think we need to merge the lists, nor do I think that (limited) cross posting is harmful in any way. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] sugar and the digital age (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
there is a very common feeling amongst policy makers and teacher that the XO doesn't really prepare students for the field of IT. There was a pilot project done in Mongolia that was run by the Japanese gov't where they introduced Linux to 4 towns. The students went on to study at the Mongolian IT college and apparently failed all their courses. The outcome was that these students were not prepared for real IT. Personally I feel that this is bogus and that it is the notion of IT, education and learning that need to be examined at the university level as well - however - just as I have learned when trying to reform educational methodologies there is a need to meet the norm half way (at least) and work from within - it would be nice if the OS could be designed in a similar gentler manner. Teachers, parents, gov't officials and many others are concerned that the computer doesn't conform to their expectations of a computer. Bear in mind that there was a lot promised in this computer like collaboration and mesh and the crank (everyone asks about the damn crank) that are still in development and all get lumped into the understanding of the OS. Essentially, in the minds of these people, fluency on windows, being able to do power point presentations and surf the web is what being prepared means. - I think if we could make some things a little more straightforward like saving, storing and accessing files (in the way PC users and Mac users can sort their way out in the opposite OS pretty intuitively) it would help bridge the gap to traditional expectations. el. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 5:16 AM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Elana, On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:48 PM, elana langer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: d) Although I think building a tagging tool around kids natural ways of thinking is really exciting, most teachers/schools/gov'ts are really concerned that this OS isn't preparing kids for the digital age properly. Most people feel it is important the computer meet some simple expectations that are common and understandable practices on any OS - like having files that can be saved and accessed in a simple place for example. could you elaborate on what means for teachers/schools/govts to prepare kids for the digital age? It may be that we are not giving enough importance to that requirement (?). [All: this topic is very broad and maybe controversial, please try to keep the threads focused and spawn new ones when needed] Greg, as OLPC's product manager, are we missing anything on that aspect? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] saving files (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
Hey Tomeu- By file I mean the product of their work - in write a document, in record a picture, in etoys a project etc. They want to save what they do in a traditional way. Now when I mean 'they' I am referring mostly to teachers or teacher trainers. But i think we need to face the reality that because we want these computers to be used within as a tool to reform formal educational we need to consider that teachers are going to work on the computers too. They also really want to guide the students - when it is hard for them to find their own work they panic. Also when they finish their work and want to share it with others or upload it from a computer that has connectivity they find it near impossible to move their work to a USB key. I don't have enough data from kids trying to do the same yet but hopefully I will see what they do in the next weeks. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 5:04 AM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:20 PM, elana langer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2) Can't save files - this should probably be the first item on my list. It drives teachers and students crazy. They make something in an application, take some pictures or write something and then have to go through a really tough process to find it and save it on an external drive. Can you explain what do you mean by saving files? Which are the problems when trying to find a file? Do you have any suggestion to improve the process? Once the file is found, which are the problems that kids have when trying to copy it to an external drive? Any suggestion? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] journal is hard (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
basically when teachers and students try to find their work (write, record, etoys) in the journal it is hard for them to locate it - especially if it is more than a few days old. This is why everyone is desperate to save their projects on USB keys. Also it seems that everything doesn't always go there. For example sometimes the pictures from a session in record are there - sometimes they aren't - sometimes it's just one picture - sometimes none. I have seen this many times - again it's why everyone wants to save on a USB right away. do you need more detail than that? On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 5:07 AM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:20 PM, elana langer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3) Basically - The journal is really hard for people/ kids to use over a longer period of time. Kids and teachers can't find things that they did unless it was done within the last 30 minutes. Could you please elaborate on the difficulties that people have when using the journal? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Slowness (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
in addition to boot and activity load time the time it takes to switch between applications is also a little frustrating - especially for kids who have worked on faster computers. I am in Mongolia for the next few weeks. There are several schools in the city that have computers so if you want any testing done (like the reaction to the boot time with 8.2) just let me know. If you send me a list of dream field feedback or something I can try to make that all happen. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Elana, you have brought a very needed point of view to this list. Let me try to start the process of translating your experience to actionable items. On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:20 PM, elana langer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) Computers are slow - So I was in a Ger in the west part of Mongolia and I thought I would show the computer to the family that was hosting me. The husband, wife and 8 year old child huddled around the computer and pressed the on button. Instead of being delighted by the computer they waited, and waited for the computer to load. I asked them in broken monoglian to be patient but once the computer loaded they wanted to open an application and again more waiting. The 8 year old lost interest as did the mom and only the man of the house stuck around to try things. This is not a unique experience. This is a culture that lives close to the land. Action- reaction. No one is used to waiting for an computer to load or a bagel to toast for that matter. (of course cooking takes time but they can watch as it changes form not just an unmoving screen) In the city the experience is worse. Kids used to PCs quickly grow impatient and leave the XO to find other faster computers. First, I would like to note that you are talking about perceived slowness, not the absolute time that takes to do anything. So to solve the issues you mentioned, we need to give a sense to the user that something is happening and, when possible, how much time it will take to finish, in case reducing the time it takes is too expensive resource-wise. Second, you talk about boot time and activity launch time. Is there any other action in the laptop that causes problems because of its slowness? And third, both booting and activity launching performance are known problems and some improvements already happened in the last stable release, 8.2.0. Do you think you could do some experiments with that release and see if things have improved and if so, how much? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Cross posting
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Philippe Clérié [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then I guess I shall have to figure out how to deal with duplicates. Your reply produced 3 of them. I'm using KMail. If you have tips... 1) install procmail 2) man procmailex 3) search for 'duplicates' 4) ...? --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] journal is hard (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
Elana Langer wrote from Mongolia: basically when teachers and students try to find their work (write, record, etoys) in the journal it is hard for them to locate it - especially if it is more than a few days old. This is why everyone is desperate to save their projects on USB keys. My perception of the above statement is that it is an indictment of the ability of Sugar (vs. traditional computing) to be a convincing tool for teachers (and for the students those teachers influence). When users are desperate to save their projects on USB keys (something that was not a principal intent of Sugar), there is something out of whack. mikus ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Slowness (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
Hey Elana, One thing which you can do to improve activity switching performance is to run xcompmgr (X composite manager). This prevents the activities from burning CPU time redrawing themselves every time they are switched to by persistently caching the video memory used by each window. The result is notably improved activity switching performance. But it does so at the cost of memory, as each window open consumes about 2MiB more RAM. One notable problem with this approach is that doing so requires more memory and thus, if the user runs a lot (in testing 4 or 5) of applications the system will become quite slow. It would be helpful to know if the activity switching performance boost provided by wholesale use of X composite is outweighed by the potential out-of-memory situations. How many activities are kids typically using? Would they prefer a system which had much better window manager navigation performance at the cost of not being able to run as many activities? What version of our software (what build) is being used for the tests? Scott suggests that you are running 649. I have tested the following procedure to run xcompmgr on that build: To install xcompmgr in the Terminal: su yum install xcompmgr # indicate 'y' when asked To run, again in the terminal: xcompmgr You won't be able to close the terminal while running the tests. You should notice an improvement in switching performance and frame redraw. The residual latency in switching appears to be caused by activity autosaving, but my testing experience with 649 is not sufficent to pass judgement on this issue. Erik On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 01:22:21PM -0400, elana langer wrote: in addition to boot and activity load time the time it takes to switch between applications is also a little frustrating - especially for kids who have worked on faster computers. I am in Mongolia for the next few weeks. There are several schools in the city that have computers so if you want any testing done (like the reaction to the boot time with 8.2) just let me know. If you send me a list of dream field feedback or something I can try to make that all happen. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Elana, you have brought a very needed point of view to this list. Let me try to start the process of translating your experience to actionable items. On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:20 PM, elana langer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) Computers are slow - So I was in a Ger in the west part of Mongolia and I thought I would show the computer to the family that was hosting me. The husband, wife and 8 year old child huddled around the computer and pressed the on button. Instead of being delighted by the computer they waited, and waited for the computer to load. I asked them in broken monoglian to be patient but once the computer loaded they wanted to open an application and again more waiting. The 8 year old lost interest as did the mom and only the man of the house stuck around to try things. This is not a unique experience. This is a culture that lives close to the land. Action- reaction. No one is used to waiting for an computer to load or a bagel to toast for that matter. (of course cooking takes time but they can watch as it changes form not just an unmoving screen) In the city the experience is worse. Kids used to PCs quickly grow impatient and leave the XO to find other faster computers. First, I would like to note that you are talking about perceived slowness, not the absolute time that takes to do anything. So to solve the issues you mentioned, we need to give a sense to the user that something is happening and, when possible, how much time it will take to finish, in case reducing the time it takes is too expensive resource-wise. Second, you talk about boot time and activity launch time. Is there any other action in the laptop that causes problems because of its slowness? And third, both booting and activity launching performance are known problems and some improvements already happened in the last stable release, 8.2.0. Do you think you could do some experiments with that release and see if things have improved and if so, how much? Thanks, Tomeu ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] journal is hard (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
On 9 Oct 2008, at 19:57, Mikus Grinbergs wrote: Elana Langer wrote from Mongolia: basically when teachers and students try to find their work (write, record, etoys) in the journal it is hard for them to locate it - especially if it is more than a few days old. This is why everyone is desperate to save their projects on USB keys. My perception of the above statement is that it is an indictment of the ability of Sugar (vs. traditional computing) to be a convincing tool for teachers (and for the students those teachers influence). When users are desperate to save their projects on USB keys (something that was not a principal intent of Sugar), there is something out of whack. Yes, this is an interesting custom getting started. I've been installing and running both release and development builds on an XO B4 since January. Managed to loose my Journal content just once, and that was a development build while I was jumping between old- data store and new data-store changes. I still had all the individual files but (my best guess), some other necessary custom magic index file for the DS had been damaged. With that said, I've not knowingly lost a Journal entry in all that time. I'm tempted to think that in these reported cases, the entries are all still in the Journal, and it's the difficulty in locating them again that is the primary issue. Given that assumption, making sure both teachers and students give their work meaningful titles may make a world of difference for them. One thing I like to do is use the title to help group entries logically together. Example: Turtle lesson plan question 1 Turtle lesson plan question 2 Turtle lesson plan question 3 Turtle lesson plan question 4 ... etc Turtle lesson plan question notes Turtle lesson plan screenshots I can then switch to Journal and type 'turtle lesson plan' for all of this to appear, or 'lesson 2' just for that lesson plan etc. You could also use the tag field, and/or the description field, but they are currently hidden away in the Journal and not quick enough to get to or find. --Gary ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [IAEP] Narrative.
I posted a comment on Bryan's call for textbook/narrative creation. http://www.olpcnews.com/content/education/scaling_constructionism_with_dynabooks.html Let's do this, Bryan. Where should we set up the workshop? What tools do we need? Wiki, mailing lists, forums, repository...? I and others have plenty of ideas for textbook replacements using Etoys, Measure, and other Sugar Activities in pretty much every subject. What we need is a place and a process, not only to write, program, and otherwise create learning materials, but to get them tested in classrooms, refined, and put into new curricula. On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:34 AM, Bill Kerr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Michael Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bryan Berry wholly captured my attention tonight when he said (in summary): Sugar offers an excellent mode for discovery but no excellent way to manipulate narratives. Both discovery and narrative are essential for learning. [1] This statement seems to me both indisputable and damning; if true, it strikes to the core of the claim that Sugar is appropriate for learning. Even though Bryan has already found some partial solutions to this problem [2], we should take time to debate the more primitive thesis that: Narrative is a basic component of much educational material which Sugar ought to 'natively' recognize, respond to, and manipulate. so that we may decide whether this issue should receive a greater share of our limited design and implementation resources. Regards, Michael [1]: Sugar presently records actions which may occasionally be decomposed into narrative or situated within an external narrative; however, Sugar is presently blind to these relationships. [2]: Bryan is currently encoding narratives in HTML and is attempting to use Offline Moodle to make this cheaper to support. I decided to write this email because I believe that it might well be worth our time to either give him a hand with his effort or to bake support for similar use cases directly in to Sugar. bryan's ideas are explained more fully in this article on olpcnews: http://www.olpcnews.com/content/education/scaling_constructionism_with_dynabooks.html the comments there are worth reading too it's hard to discuss without having the ideas spelt out narrative is good is not really a sufficient basis for a discussion but bryan's article has more detail ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Don't panic.--HHGTTG, Douglas Adams fivethirtyeight.com, 3bluedudes.com Obama still moving ahead in EC! http://www.obamapedia.org/ Join us! http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai For the children ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
This whole why would you need a USB in mongolia? conversation shows how out of touch some people on this list are with the people the project is trying to reach. People live miles and miles away from one another (in Mongolia), and it is entirely normal to travel to your friends yurt or yer or house with a horse and want to plug in your USB stick -- especially if your mesh isn't connecting due to the distance and you don't have internet because a) no one in your family has a computer b) your house keeps moving around c) it'd be too costly. Also, assuming people want to be able transfer files/objects/things between mac, *nix, windows etc and assuming the lack of a reliable network it makes perfect sense. Even if all the computers you want to do transfers between have wifi, you can't expect a kid to set it up / get the mesh working / get homenetworking working... it is just easier to use a USB stick. Case: I am a teacher, I wrote some things on my old second hand desktop PC at home. I don't have internet at home, because I don't get paid enough as a teacher and my house doesn't have landlines and wimax isn't there yet. I want to give my students this thing I wrote, next morning in class so they can follow my lecture etc. more clearly or go do reading at home. Hence, student, or teacher, I need a USB stick. Deniz p.s. Mikus I hope this helps with your question: I'm trying to think of why a kid would want to save files to a USB key. and provides a counterpoint to: I think that objects (e.g., 'files') ought to be transported between systems via network connections, rather than via USB sneakernet. What do you do in Mongolia when people move around after herds, half the houses in the capital are yurts/yers, and there are no reliable network connections? Your ought is simply not possible. p.p.s Marco, you're a stuck-up asshole :) On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Bastien [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Mikus Grinbergs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Tagging isn't as much of an issue as being able to save files to a USB key easily. I'm trying to think of why a kid would want to save files to a USB key. Normally, except for off-loading objects to a school repository (a process about which I know nothing), 'files' would be kept at the XO itself, and not on removable storage devices. Maybe we should not only think in terms of purposes, but also in terms of causes: what makes children want to save files to USB stick? What I've seen is that children wants to save to a USB stick because they are told so by teachers, and teachers wants to save to a USB stick because they often lost files and are afraid of losing more... (I've not seen a school server in action, so I cannot discuss whether saving to a USB looks safer for teachers/children than saving to a USB stick.) -- Bastien ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 08:10:57PM -0400, Deniz Kural wrote: [this list is out of touch] Hence, student, or teacher, I need a USB stick. 1. Plug USB stick into XO running build from the last six months 2. Drag files from the Journal to the USB stick icon 3. Drag files from the USB stick's file list to the Journal Deniz p.p.s Marco, you're a stuck-up asshole :) And you managed to call people that actually know what the hell they're talking about out of touch. Thanks for advancing the state of knowledge on the list all the way forward to, oh, 2007. pgpQETFICBErl.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:10 AM, Deniz Kural [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: p.p.s Marco, you're a stuck-up asshole :) Nice to meet you, Deniz. Do you care to elaborate? Marco ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:36 AM, Edward Cherlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin, Deniz, cool it, the pair of you. No more ad hominem attacks. You each owe the other an apology. And one to Marco, too. Thank you Edward, but no need for an apology. It's the funniest thing I heard in the last week, it made me laugh for a while if nothing else :) I need to turn it into a t-shirt... Marco ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [IAEP] sugar and the digital age (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
Am 09.10.2008 um 19:10 schrieb elana langer: there is a very common feeling amongst policy makers and teacher that the XO doesn't really prepare students for the field of IT. There was a pilot project done in Mongolia that was run by the Japanese gov't where they introduced Linux to 4 towns. The students went on to study at the Mongolian IT college and apparently failed all their courses. The outcome was that these students were not prepared for real IT. Personally I feel that this is bogus and that it is the notion of IT, education and learning that need to be examined at the university level as well - however - just as I have learned when trying to reform educational methodologies there is a need to meet the norm half way (at least) and work from within - it would be nice if the OS could be designed in a similar gentler manner. Teachers, parents, gov't officials and many others are concerned that the computer doesn't conform to their expectations of a computer. Bear in mind that there was a lot promised in this computer like collaboration and mesh and the crank (everyone asks about the damn crank) that are still in development and all get lumped into the understanding of the OS. Essentially, in the minds of these people, fluency on windows, being able to do power point presentations and surf the web is what being prepared means. - I think if we could make some things a little more straightforward like saving, storing and accessing files (in the way PC users and Mac users can sort their way out in the opposite OS pretty intuitively) it would help bridge the gap to traditional expectations. Well, the XO already goes way more than half-way towards the popular notions of how computers should work. Almost all the software stack is identical to what you find on an arbitrary desktop. Demanding that it should go even more towards what is currently hip in this very immature field of IT doesn't sound too compelling if the goal is to empower future generations to use computers as malleable tools for thought, rather than as enslaving magical devices for office work. I'm glad at least some aspects of the system question the current status quo. Kudos to the Sugar developers for not giving in to the crowd's pseudo-wisdom. - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 05:36:10PM -0700, Edward Cherlin wrote: Martin, Deniz, cool it, the pair of you. No more ad hominem attacks. Relax. As to my ad-hominem attacks, how is it ad-hominem to say that someone who says something incorrect is out of touch (with the truth/progress/etc.)? Or say that it's annoying me if they call others out of touch? The former is a statement of fact relevant to the propositions at hand, and the latter could at worst be an irrelevant personal opinion, but in that case the correct response is to ignore it, which I note many on the list are doing. You each owe the other an apology. For disseminating up-to-date, correct information? No. For attempting sarcasm on the internet? Very sorry. Er, whoops, there I go again. And one to Marco, too. Eh? Marco's great. Why should I apologize to him for that? The list is not out of touch. I tried to keep it in touch with actions. I doubt many will be impressed by anything else, especially mere assertions (a lady who says she's a lady, and all that). There are many on the list who are ignorant of conditions on the ground and of other things through no fault of their own. Yes, but most of them don't go calling the list out of touch. Now shake hands and come out arguing about facts, needs, and possibilities. I argued about the facts. And I'm not good at meta-discussions, so perhaps I'm missing some other point of yours. Martin pgp1G8mbY0exq.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Slowness (was Re: notes from the field - Mongolia)
I've just confirmed activity switching performance is improved by using xcompmgr. Environment: XO C2 with build 763 (on a random laptop), with Firefox activity, Terminal activity and Journal activity all active, with Firefox displaying a reasonably complex web page, with a copy of /usr/bin/xcompmgr from a nearby Debian system. Method: without and with xcompmgr running, use Alt/Tab to switch between the three activities (Journal, Firefox, Terminal), taking note of the rate at which it can be completed over 30 seconds, keeping the Alt key depressed to avoid frame redraw. Results: without xcompmgr, ten (10) cycles. with xcompmgr, fifteen (15) cycles. There's probably a more robust method to test this, but the degree of the improvement was significant. I didn't measure the memory impact. -- James Cameronmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://quozl.netrek.org/ ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
