subject:"\[Sugar\-devel\] Community"

On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 03:59:10PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
 Has anyone actually booted the latest Ubuntu LTS on any/all the XOs?

I've tried it on XO-1.5, and it was doable, but lots of missing
things.  My estimate to fix is greater than the size of work to
stabilise Fedora 20 or Fedora 22.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-07 Thread Martin Dengler

On Wed, May 06, 2015 at 11:21:35PM -0400, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
 OLPC already appears to be going the Ubuntu LTS route

When/where can I read more about what OLPC is doing with Ubuntu LTS?  Apologies
for the lazyweb request.

Martin


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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-07 Thread Tony Anderson

I don't know what is puzzling. I can understand a deployment wanting 
assurance of long-term support for Sugar. I doubt there are many 
deployments that even know what Fedora or Ubuntu means. Even fewer that 
understand the difference between SugarLabs and Red Hat or Canonical as 
sources of this support.


The word deployment may be a puzzle, In some cases it as a national 
ministry or OLPC Australia. For most of us, it is a school or other 
institution which has acquired OLPC laptops and is attempting to make 
use of them.


There are many deployments which have never updated their image. In 
general, an update to an XO requires someone to come to the school
with the technical expertise to do so. I am sure there are schools which 
have never seen such a visitor since they received their laptops.
The positive element is that the laptops work as they always have. The 
downside, of course, is that the users have no chance to benefit from

the new capabilities available from current releases.

Finally, what urgent security fixes are required by a deployment with no 
access to the internet?


Tony


On 05/08/2015 12:55 AM, sugar-devel-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org wrote:

When I talked with deployments and they ask for Ubuntu,
and I ask why, what they really want is Long Time Support.
No deployment change their image more than once a year.
In fact, change a image is a logistic challenge for most of
the big/middle size deployments.?

This continues to puzzle me.  LTS is a stream of security updates, and
you say the deployments do not apply them until the next year?

And yet they want them?

They want something they don't use?


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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-07 Thread Gonzalo Odiard

Hi Peter,

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 6:16 AM, Peter Robinson pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote:

Let make my comment clear. My proposal was not a criticize Fedora
or the Fedora community. Fedora has been very supportive and responsive.

I do not think we should switch from Fedora to CentOS, because;

1. our installed base express interest in Fedora or Ubuntu,

2. there are missing desktop packages, which means we are taking on
maintenance of those packages on CentOS,

Ok. I didn't know that.

When I talked with deployments and they ask for Ubuntu,
and I ask why, what they really want is Long Time Support.
No deployment change their image more than once a year.
In fact, change a image is a logistic challenge for most of
the big/middle size deployments.

Then, I was thinking in CentOS as a LTS version of Fedora.

In Fedora if you know the right people (like me) you can get a fix
into update-testing in a day. Also there's a much much wider QA group
across the packages we use and care about.

I can go on and on about the details required for this but basically I
suspect eyes have glazed over already.

This is true, and I know that.
But also is true, that keep the pace of changes in Fedora is not easy.
In fact, is not Fedora fault, mostly is Gtk ([1], [2], [3]) or libraries
(the last was vte [4],
but I can find more).

[1]
https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-artwork/commit/27fac30cb028a7461f40da6765db13c017ad6f13
[2]
https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-artwork/commit/f87d4b05a2b2db55dc4a8dddc9321ac8fbe33f3e
[3]
https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-artwork/commit/e6f3c4430477176750b4ae4a007e98837a877080
[4]
https://github.com/godiard/terminal-activity/commit/074f11cc37c6fa1035e32bc4132c6371254fa0f8

3. we would delay necessary work until the next release of CentOS, or
if the work is too large we may never upgrade.

I suspect it would be never.

Ok. But Let me explain my reasons.

Right now, the only stable images are based on F18.
We don't have images in a good shape for the deployments for F20,
we missed F21 (where Gtk theme change in a subtle way again,
and toggle toolbar buttons don't change the background color),
and we should start to work in F22. With the hands we have today,
I am sure we will not solve all the problems we already have before F23 is
released.

That is my concern. If we would had one dsd involved,
the conversation would be completely different,
But as Samuel said in a previous mail in this thread I have seen a fair
amount of interest,
both publicly and privately, for newer XO laptop builds. But I don't think
the requesters
realize how much work it takes to make one.

Let me explain that last point.

There is a continuous flow of changes into Fedora. These changes
eventually flow into Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and thus into CentOS.

Kernel and olpc-os-builder aside I think you could probably produce a
working image of Fedora 22 now. I think all the userspace bits are
likely there and working due to my SoaS work.

I am sure we could produce a _almost_working_ image for Fedora 22.
The problem is make a _working_ image. Just to point a example,
Community

Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 10:28:06AM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
 On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 4:21 AM, Samuel Greenfeld sam...@greenfeld.org wrote:
  The obvious counterargument would be that a deployment might want
  to deploy your XO-Next (whatever it is) alongside existing XO
  laptops, allowing all of them to have the same configuration.
 
 From my memory of olpc-os-builder it was very modular and wouldn't be
 hard to add dozens of different devices support to it.

Yes, it would be straightforward to add commodity hardware support to
olpc-os-builder.  Add kernel and boot loader.  Add some sort of
installer.

But we have SoaS, and SoaS works fine on commodity hardware, so why
bother with olpc-os-builder?

Because olpc-update?  Nobody uses it.

Because preinstalled activities?  SoaS can do that too.

  There's plenty of blame to go around in terms of re-inventing the wheel and
  lack of communication.
 
 Yep!
 
  There simply (and correct me if I'm wrong) are not the resources inside of
  OLPC, outside, or combined at this time to maintain and update two separate
  builds  build systems.
 
  It amazes me how far we bend over backwards to avoid saying end of life
  and end of support.
 
 
  I have seen a fair amount of interest, both publicly and privately, for
  newer XO laptop builds.  But I don't think the requesters realize how much
  work it takes to make one.
 
 The big one here is kernel kernel kernel.

Yes.

  And I do not forsee anyone stepping up to get the XO-1.75 and XO-4 kernel 
  drivers into a state they can be upstreamed or upgraded for newer Fedoras
  unless a deployment really wants this instead of newer equipment.
 
 Or even the 1.5, I believe most of the XO-1 support is upsteream.
 
  Newer operating systems tend to require more disk space and RAM than the
  predecessors.  We have seen this even within Fedora's lineage.
 
 Yes, and no. I mean 1Gb of the original XO-1 is tight, but SoaS still
 happily fits in 4Gb with a bunch of space to spare. Looking at my
 current SoaS VM the used space is around 1.9Gb. Amusingly the various
 cloud/container enterprise initiatives actively help us here because
 for once they care about dependency bloat too :-)
 
 The two things that add bloat to the current SoaS image are:
 * Browse needs to be converted to the new WebKitGtk APIs so we don't
 ship two copies of WebKitGtk.
 * Conversion of remaining gstreamer 0.10 to 1.0 to allow us not to ship that.
 
 Ultimately I think you could with a little development effort get it
 down to 1.5Gb used space which would make a 2Gb filesystem quite
 usable.
 
  Since OLPC already appears to be going the Ubuntu LTS route, I would argue
  it would be easiest to take everything that way, porting utilities as
  required, and make that the final image  build system for XOs.
 
 Personally I have no interest in that. I wish you luck.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 11:28:42AM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
 When I talked with deployments and they ask for Ubuntu,
 and I ask why, what they really want is Long Time Support.
 No deployment change their image more than once a year.
 In fact, change a image is a logistic challenge for most of
 the big/middle size deployments. 

This continues to puzzle me.  LTS is a stream of security updates, and
you say the deployments do not apply them until the next year?

And yet they want them?

They want something they don't use?

If a vulnerability is reported just after they make their image, the
children are exposed to the vulnerability for the rest of the year.

It seems more likely that the meaning of LTS is not understood.

Fedora continues with security updates for a similar time period, but
if the deployment uses our builder unchanged they won't get them.  I'm
expecting that if a deployment needs LTS on Fedora they will assume
the responsibility to apply the updates when they make a build.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 10:16:42AM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
 On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 12:10 AM, James Cameron qu...@laptop.org wrote:
  On Wed, May 06, 2015 at 09:19:45AM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
  I think we should try make a build using CentOS. I don't know if
  have all the packages we need, but the rate of change in Fedora was
  difficult to follow when OLPC had a team dedicated and now is almost
  impossible. The true is we didn't finished to solve the problems we
  found in F20, and Fedora is working in F22.
 
  I do not think we should switch from Fedora to CentOS, because;
 
  1.  our installed base express interest in Fedora or Ubuntu,
 
 Daniel Drake, myself and others put in a lot of effort back in the
 F-14/15 days to get everything upstream into Fedora. I continue to
 maintain that and produce a Sugar on a Stick release with every Fedora
 release.

Agreed, and my continued thanks.

 In the last release Daniel and I was involved in the delta between
 Fedora and the OLPC release was very minimal. Basically kernel,
 firmware, and some minor changes to a couple of Sugar packages for XO
 HW and patches that weren't yet upstream.
 
  2.  there are missing desktop packages, which means we are taking on
  maintenance of those packages on CentOS,
 
 Having tried and failed to do this back when EL6 was new I believe
 this is a dead end. It turned out to be _WAY_ more effort than
 actually keeping Fedora up to date. The upstream RHEL releases are
 every 6 months but if you need a fix for a package in the core 2500
 odd packages and it's not easy you might be waiting a lot longer for a
 fix.
 
 In Fedora if you know the right people (like me) you can get a fix
 into update-testing in a day. Also there's a much much wider QA group
 across the packages we use and care about.
 
 I can go on and on about the details required for this but basically I
 suspect eyes have glazed over already.
 
  3.  we would delay necessary work until the next release of CentOS, or
  if the work is too large we may never upgrade.
 
 I suspect it would be never.
 
  Let me explain that last point.
 
  There is a continuous flow of changes into Fedora.  These changes
  eventually flow into Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and thus into CentOS.
 
  The most cost effective way to handle this flow was for developers to
  test changes on our builds, every week.  This gaves us awareness of
  the change and kept us involved to resist changes that cause damage.
  We were there once.  It required a low but continuous engineering
  effort.
 
 It use to take around an hour to cut a release from Fedora/Sugar
 repos. Quite often the delta from a patch for a fix being created and
 a new OS was in the hours timeframe. It's the usual story of a little
 bit of effort regularly stops it from being a major issue.
 
 Kernel and olpc-os-builder aside I think you could probably produce a
 working image of Fedora 22 now. I think all the userspace bits are
 likely there and working due to my SoaS work.

Agreed.  I've not tried Fedora 22 yet.  Time poor.

 It's actually the thing that annoys me most about the sugar community.
 IMO we have a great working Sugar release that works pretty much
 everywhere plus is a great proven base for XO releases yet so many
 core developers have told me if only you'd focus on Ubuntu we'd use
 it yet Ubuntu for _YEARS_ have shown that they couldn't given a shit
 and even actively remove core bits needed (remember the Browse on
 Mozilla years anyone??) to make it even harder.

Yes.  Mostly I think the calls for Ubuntu spring from familiarity with
it, and an unwillingness to engage in the process for fixing problems
with Fedora (OLPC and SoaS).  The Ubuntu LTS doesn't cover Sugar, so
it is wrong to expect value from it.

  The next most cost effective way is to do this work only when a new
  release of Fedora occurs.  This results in lots of head scratching and
  bug fixing, and new builds, until the bugs are mostly gone.  We are
  here now.  It requires bursts of engineering effort.
 
 Actually it needs work _BEFORE_ a new release happens, any work now
 IMO should be focused on Fedora 23. That way you have everything in
 place in time for Fedora 23 GA in October and you get the longest
 value out of the release.
 
  The least cost effective way is to hold off doing that work for three
  years until the next CentOS release.  This would be a lot more work in
  a much shorter burst.
 
 And you'll likely end up in a very disparate stability across devices.
 Both ARMv7 and i686 is community supported in CentOS which means you
 get likely dubious quality of work and I suspect due to toolchain
 config choices for i686 it won't even run on the XO-1. Has anyone
 actually tried booting CentOS-7 on a XO1? From what I've seen of the
 ARMv7 efforts I see it as half arsed at best.

No, nobody has tried booting CentOS-7 on an XO-1.

 People ask me if I can help with CentOS. The answer is no. I have no
 personal interest in CentOS. I have

Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-07 Thread Gonzalo Odiard

No official announcements yet.

Samuel was looking at the bug database,
because he knows where to look :)

Gonzalo

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Martin Dengler mar...@martindengler.com
wrote:

 On Wed, May 06, 2015 at 11:21:35PM -0400, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
  OLPC already appears to be going the Ubuntu LTS route

 When/where can I read more about what OLPC is doing with Ubuntu LTS?
 Apologies
 for the lazyweb request.

 Martin

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 12:56:32AM -0500, Sebastian Silva wrote:
 
 On 06/05/15 18:10, James Cameron wrote:
  1.  our installed base express interest in Fedora or Ubuntu,
 
 I wonder how accurate this is?

No idea.

 Many times upstream, or suppliers, tend to lump entire deployments
 into one person or group.
 Did you mean administrators, technicians, teachers, or users?

Yes.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-06 Thread Gonzalo Odiard

Hi Sam,


- Who actually is using/testing these images?

 I downloaded it (XO-1 and XO-4 versions).


- Why?

 To test if all is working in a new Fedora, and to try find a solution
for the Browse problems in the XO-1. Sadly wifi connectivity
is not working ok in the F20 images.



- Is there a reason you are not looking into using an official (OLPC
or deployment) build?

 For distribution, today is more stable the F18 version. But we need move
then we need solve the problems we find in newer versions.


- Have you engaged OLPC or another party to work on changes?

 Yes.


- What direction do you believe the builds should go?

 I think we should try make a build using CentOS. I don't know
if have all the packages we need, but the rate of change in Fedora
was difficult to follow when OLPC had a team dedicated and now
is almost impossible. The true is we didn't finished to solve
the problems we found in F20, and Fedora is working in F22.

Building XO builds by repacking existing work is relatively trivial.

 But the low-level kernel, driver, and OS work necessary to support XOs
 with newer operating systems (as well as newer XO batteries) is something I
 cannot do, and where we really need help.

+1

 Without guidance from OLPC or others, I could build thousands of XO-#
 laptop images.  But unless it looks like a significant number of
 deployments/children actually would benefit, there really is no point.

 I think the benefit is provide a environment where we can test, fill bugs,
etc.
But if there are no people with the knowledge and the time to work
in the low level stuff, will be difficult.

Gonzalo
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-06 Thread Adam Holt

On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 12:54 AM, Samuel Greenfeld sam...@greenfeld.org
wrote:

 I saw some discussion last week about the community XO software builds.

 This seems to be something which gets many people excited.

 However according to my web server, there have not been very many
 downloads of them.

 If I may ask:

- Who actually is using/testing these images?


I have asked quite a number of deployments to try
http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/ but they are very resistant
to try until others have documented first.  Breaking this Vicious Cycle
won't happen overnight, but a Virtuous Cycle is possible, if we build
tight/participatory documentation around key builds-


- Why?


They all seem to want a better browser and better codec support to view
various+sundry videos, within Sugar ideally, but if that's not possible
then within Gnome.  One group per week asks me for the above, above all
else (often more than one deployment/group per week).



- Is there a reason you are not looking into using an official (OLPC
or deployment) build?


James Cameron and Nathan Riddle have made tremendous progress with SD cards
improving XO-1 builds, but this is not financially viable in most all
impoverished countries where we work.


- Have you engaged OLPC or another party to work on changes?


In the past: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/HaitiOS is a derivative of OLPC
Release 12.1.0 widely deployed starting in early 2014 thanks to the
volunteer work of James Cameron, George Hunt and many others.

While it's not financially or logistically viable to rebase every year,
OLPC or Community OS 15.x.x in the coming year (if such an OS arises with
better codec support, better browser support, sufficiently stable Sugar
and/or sufficient speed) will affect MANY thousands of people, inside Haiti
and far outside Haiti.  (On XO-1s especially; the 3 other more modern XO
laptops always crop up too).


- What direction do you believe the builds should go?


Reliability.  Impoverished countries are very accustomed to dealing with
broken leftovers + electronic waste shipped to them by rich countries, so
don't ask for perfection, but do ask for basic sanitation...

If it's truly achievable, Gonzalo is right to push for CentOS durability
rather the Fedora treadmill which creates many quite unintended
casualties.  The world has become a more dangerous place that 2007 when XO
mass production began: we are now almost a decade later with intermittent
2G/3G nearly ubiquitous across the 3rd World (no matter how pricy+tenuous,
I no longer run into communities that can say with a straight face they are
completely offline).  Sneakernet is to be encouraged, but the consequence
is that schools' inability to easily patch F18-based XO's against
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellshock_%28software_bug%29 and the drumroll
of similar security holes, is emerging as an existential threat to their XO
learning environments.

But if CentOS is not realistically achievable, F22 might be more
appropriate, given it's final freeze is supposed to be less than 1 week
away?

Building XO builds by repacking existing work is relatively trivial.

 But the low-level kernel, driver, and OS work necessary to support XOs
 with newer operating systems (as well as newer XO batteries) is something I
 cannot do, and where we really need help.

 Without guidance from OLPC or others, I could build thousands of XO-#
 laptop images.  But unless it looks like a significant number of
 deployments/children actually would benefit, there really is no point.

 ---
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-06 Thread James Cameron

On Wed, May 06, 2015 at 09:29:46PM -0400, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
 It might be possible for this new builder to be eventually taught to
 handle XOs.

There was no significant interest in my previous builder uxo, which
already knows how to handle XOs.  The recent posts on devel@ of people
trying something similar without looking at uxo is further evidence of
that.

So for the moment, there seems to be no need for my new builder to
handle XO-1, XO-1.5, XO-1.75 or XO-4 laptops.  The Fedora based
builder is working fine for those laptops.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-06 Thread Samuel Greenfeld

I will try to answer some questions.  But my last two points will only
raise new ones.


   1. There are a few purposes for the community build.  The first is that
   for a while, all the OLPC builds announced seemed to be private ones
   available upon request.  It therefore was necessary to see if builds were
   still possible without the private extensions, and how well they worked.

   A second is that I actually build against a local mirror.  This mirror
   was created back when it was uncertain if OLPC would keep the MIT servers,
   and expanded when said servers started running into problems.  (These
   issues have since been resolved.)

   OLPC has and may still have an automatic backup; but I recall others
   having to stop it from accidentally pulling corrupted data in the past.

   Although it only has a subset of the public OLPC content available
   anonymously, building against my mirror makes sure that it still works and
   that it is periodically made up to date.


   2. I have uploaded the .ini files I use to
   http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/olpc-os-builder/ .
   But there is nothing in them that you could not derive from the
   olpc-14.1.0*.ini files already in olpc-os-builder.

   The .zd SD card image for XO-1 build 2 is next to it's .img file.

   I added a pause at the end of kspost.75.install_bundles.inc so I can
   tweak the XO-1 image and remove some of the larger activities.  But this is
   temporary for debugging only.


   3. Since I am based in the US, I cannot generate images with the
   multimedia items due to patents.  At best I could give you instructions
   similar to how OLPC already does.

   I vaguely recall all XO-4's might be licensed for many multimedia codecs
   but it would be up to OLPC to make those images more widely available.


   4. Personally I would argue that a CentOS or another long-term build may
   be the best approach for XOs.  Sugar is in EPEL 6, and likely could be
   added to EPEL 7.

   It should surprise no one at this point that the list of personnel on
   OLPC's web site is years out of date.  There may be more people working on
   XSCE at the moment than XO laptop software.

   Given the lack of personnel and resources I believe it would be best to
   do one final build for XO-1 through XO-4 based on a LTS distribution
   supported to at least 2020, and then only minor security/fixes after that.


   5. OLPC already is looking beyond the XO, and beyond Fedora.  If you
   look at dev.laptop.org closely, you might notice a bunch of tickets
   targeted for su-15.1 as well as a new olpc-ubuntu-sugar-builder git tree
   meant for standard PCs.

   This appears to be an Sugar 0.104/Ubuntu 14.04 LTS build with anti-theft
   provided by a secure-boot-based EFI bootloader, not Open Firmware.

   While I am not thrilled that this has been done without the historical
   community's involvement, it likely matches the need of the XO Infinity or
   another client who currently pays the bills.

   It might be possible for this new builder to be eventually taught to
   handle XOs.

   But if OLPC is looking beyond the XO-4, perhaps it's time that Sugar do
   so as well.

   More information can be found at http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/12881





On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 7:18 PM, James Cameron qu...@laptop.org wrote:

 On Wed, May 06, 2015 at 10:49:47AM -0400, Adam Holt wrote:
  They all seem to want a better browser and better codec support to
  view various+sundry videos, within Sugar ideally, but if that's not
  possible then within Gnome.  One group per week asks me for the
  above, above all else (often more than one deployment/group per
  week).

 Why isn't this reaching me and the people who would do something about
 it?  Please count these requests, deidentify and aggregate them, and
 report them monthly on devel@ or sugar-devel@

  But if CentOS is not realistically achievable, F22 might be more
  appropriate, given it's final freeze is supposed to be less than 1
  week away?

 The size of this task (F22) has not yet been estimated, but based on
 Samuel's write up, my guess is between 10 and 50 engineer hours.

 There may be other problems lurking.

 The Fedora 20 port just on XO-4 has consumed way more than this.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-06 Thread Samuel Greenfeld

The obvious counterargument would be that a deployment might want to deploy
your XO-Next (whatever it is) alongside existing XO laptops, allowing all
of them to have the same configuration.

There's plenty of blame to go around in terms of re-inventing the wheel and
lack of communication.

There simply (and correct me if I'm wrong) are not the resources inside of
OLPC, outside, or combined at this time to maintain and update two separate
builds  build systems.

It amazes me how far we bend over backwards to avoid saying end of life
and end of support.


I have seen a fair amount of interest, both publicly and privately, for
newer XO laptop builds.  But I don't think the requesters realize how much
work it takes to make one.

And I do not forsee anyone stepping up to get the XO-1.75 and XO-4 kernel 
drivers into a state they can be upstreamed or upgraded for newer Fedoras
unless a deployment really wants this instead of newer equipment.

Newer operating systems tend to require more disk space and RAM than the
predecessors.  We have seen this even within Fedora's lineage.


Since OLPC already appears to be going the Ubuntu LTS route, I would argue
it would be easiest to take everything that way, porting utilities as
required, and make that the final image  build system for XOs.

I only have a limited number of hours per week I can look into OLPC things,
but I'm tempted to take a look.






On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 10:50 PM, James Cameron qu...@laptop.org wrote:

 On Wed, May 06, 2015 at 09:29:46PM -0400, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
  It might be possible for this new builder to be eventually taught to
  handle XOs.

 There was no significant interest in my previous builder uxo, which
 already knows how to handle XOs.  The recent posts on devel@ of people
 trying something similar without looking at uxo is further evidence of
 that.

 So for the moment, there seems to be no need for my new builder to
 handle XO-1, XO-1.5, XO-1.75 or XO-4 laptops.  The Fedora based
 builder is working fine for those laptops.

 --
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 http://quozl.linux.org.au/

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-06 Thread James Cameron

On Wed, May 06, 2015 at 11:21:35PM -0400, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
 The obvious counterargument would be that a deployment might want to
 deploy your XO-Next (whatever it is) alongside existing XO laptops,
 allowing all of them to have the same configuration.

I don't think that's likely.  And if it is required, the same set of
Sugar activities or the same user level desktop will suffice.  The
software layers are well isolated; there's no reason to have the same
things all the way down to the kernel.

 Since OLPC already appears to be going the Ubuntu LTS route, I would
 argue it would be easiest to take everything that way, porting
 utilities as required, and make that the final image  build system
 for XOs.

We'll see.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-06 Thread Sebastian Silva


On 06/05/15 18:10, James Cameron wrote:
 1.  our installed base express interest in Fedora or Ubuntu,

I wonder how accurate this is?

Many times upstream, or suppliers, tend to lump entire deployments
into one person or group.
Did you mean administrators, technicians, teachers, or users?

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[Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-05 Thread Samuel Greenfeld

I saw some discussion last week about the community XO software builds.

This seems to be something which gets many people excited.

However according to my web server, there have not been very many downloads
of them.

If I may ask:

   - Who actually is using/testing these images?
   - Why?
   - Is there a reason you are not looking into using an official (OLPC or
   deployment) build?
   - Have you engaged OLPC or another party to work on changes?
   - What direction do you believe the builds should go?

Building XO builds by repacking existing work is relatively trivial.

But the low-level kernel, driver, and OS work necessary to support XOs with
newer operating systems (as well as newer XO batteries) is something I
cannot do, and where we really need help.

Without guidance from OLPC or others, I could build thousands of XO-#
laptop images.  But unless it looks like a significant number of
deployments/children actually would benefit, there really is no point.

---
SJG
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-05 Thread tkkang

 Who actually is using/testing these images? Why?

I am as I try to to see if I could still get some life out of XO with whatever 
development that is going forward with upgrades.  

 Is there a reason you are not looking into using an official (OLPC or 
 deployment) build?

Use that also but community driven images may be a good way to test things for 
feedback before things get official.

 - Have you engaged OLPC or another party to work on changes?

I try to and the best things is I get some help along the way for a little DIY 
with my limited technical skills. 

 - What direction do you believe the builds should go?

1. To make the XO multi-media ready :-)  or provide scripts that we can just 
run to for enabling multi-media experience with the XO. Hate to see spinning 
wheels without images :-(

2. Have builds that target specific age groups with the right activities loaded 
or displayed.

Building XO builds by repacking existing work is relatively trivial.
But the low-level kernel, driver, and OS work necessary to support XOs with 
newer operating systems (as well as newer XO batteries) is something I cannot 
do, and where we really need help.

Yes and I hope OLPC is still providing the necessary financial support for 
things to happen. 

Without guidance from OLPC or others, I could build thousands of XO-#
laptop images.  But unless it looks like a significant number of
deployments/children actually would benefit, there really is no point.

Build and they may come.  

Thanks.






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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community XO software builds

2015-05-05 Thread Sebastian Silva

Hi Samuel,

I think your volunteer work is important.

It is not clear to me exactly what the focus is of your images, nor
where the repositories with the ini files for the builder, or the
download link for the ready images.
This is probably the reason you have so few downloads logged.

Perhaps we should put all of this in a Wiki page?

I am interested, but haven't been able to test because when I asked last
time for the SD card images you told me you would build them but never
let me know when/where I could get them.

I understand it may be frustrating to work without feedback but it's
simply the way it works at this point, unless you are in the field.

Also, keep in mind that deployments are interested in updating OS images
once every one or two years.

Thanks, in the name of the children, for the work you do.
I'll try to respond your questions inline below.

Regards,
Sebastian


On 05/05/15 23:54, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
 I saw some discussion last week about the community XO software builds.

 This seems to be something which gets many people excited.

 However according to my web server, there have not been very many
 downloads of them.

 If I may ask:

   * Who actually is using/testing these images?

Not me, yet.

   * Why?

I maintained in the past official images for Peru.

   * Is there a reason you are not looking into using an official (OLPC
 or deployment) build?

Yes we like to roll our own to include native languages, features (e.g.
Sugar Network), etc.

   * Have you engaged OLPC or another party to work on changes?

I try to work upstream.

   * What direction do you believe the builds should go?

The best possible experience for end users. Basically, on XO, means
performance tuning.

 Building XO builds by repacking existing work is relatively trivial.

 But the low-level kernel, driver, and OS work necessary to support XOs
 with newer operating systems (as well as newer XO batteries) is
 something I cannot do, and where we really need help.

 Without guidance from OLPC or others, I could build thousands of XO-#
 laptop images.  But unless it looks like a significant number of
 deployments/children actually would benefit, there really is no point.

 ---
 SJG



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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-08 Thread James Cameron

On Sat, Mar 07, 2015 at 07:47:16AM +, tkk...@nurturingasia.com wrote:
 Things seems normal to me.

You mean the language control panel?

 For the XO-1 wireless and mesh in not working well. I have been only
 been able to login to my non-password wireless network ystem and
 other XO do not showup in the network when I am sucessfully
 connected.

No comment on mesh.

No comment on secured networks.

The other laptop buddy icons not appearing is probably a known
problem, to verify type:

sudo systemctl status avahi-daemon.service

and look for error SO_REUSEPORT failed: Protocol not available.

If this message is shown, the cause of missing icons is failure to
start the avahi daemon, because kernel lacks critical feature.  The
fix is already applied for XO-4 and XO-1.75 kernels; patch series
with soreuseport in the patch name.  This patch series has to be
backported to the branch being used for the XO-1 and XO-1.5, then new
kernel RPMs built and uploaded.

 This confirm Samuel report of issue of networking in XO-1 on the new
 build. Hope this can be fixed.

No, I think your test goes beyond what Samuel was talking about.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-08 Thread tkkang

 Things seems normal to me.

You mean the language control panel?

Yes

The other laptop buddy icons not appearing is probably a known
problem, to verify type:

sudo systemctl status avahi-daemon.service

and look for error SO_REUSEPORT failed: Protocol not available.

I get output:

-
avahi-daemon.service - Avahi mDNS/DNS-SD Stack
   Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/avahi-daemon.service; enabled)
   Active: failed (Result: exit-code) since Sun 2015-03-08 10:58:22 GMT; 2min 
48s ago
  Process: 903 ExecStart=/usr/sbin/avahi-daemon -s (code=exited, status=255)
 Main PID: 903 (code=exited, status=255)
   Status: avahi-daemon 0.6.31 exiting.
   CGroup: /system.slice/avahi-daemon.service

Mar 08 10:58:22 xo-35-0d-a7.localdomain systemd[1]: Starting Avahi mDNS/DNS-SD 
Stack...
Mar 08 10:58:22 xo-35-0d-a7.localdomain avahi-daemon[903]: Found user 'avahi' 
(UID 70) and group 'avahi' (GID 70).
Mar 08 10:58:22 xo-35-0d-a7.localdomain avahi-daemon[903]: Successfully dropped 
root privileges.
Mar 08 10:58:22 xo-35-0d-a7.localdomain avahi-daemon[903]: avahi-daemon 0.6.31 
starting up.
Mar 08 10:58:22 xo-35-0d-a7.localdomain systemd[1]: Started Avahi mDNS/DNS-SD 
Stack.
Mar 08 10:58:22 xo-35-0d-a7.localdomain systemd[1]: avahi-daemon.service: main 
process exited, code=exited, status=255/n/a
Mar 08 10:58:22 xo-35-0d-a7.localdomain systemd[1]: Unit avahi-daemon.service 
entered failed state.

Cheers 


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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-06 Thread James Cameron

On Fri, Mar 06, 2015 at 08:13:03PM -0300, Martin Abente wrote:
 
 On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Samuel Greenfeld [1]sam...@greenfeld.org
 wrote:
 
   □ The language control panel problem appears to just be a first-boot
 issue.  If broken, rebooting should allow the language control panel 
 to
 work.
 
 Has anyone else seen this? I haven't been able to reproduce.

No.

I wonder if it has something to do with manufacturing tags on Samuel's
test machines.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-06 Thread tkkang

Things seems normal to me.

For the XO-1 wireless and mesh in not working well. I have been only been able 
to login to my non-password wireless network ystem and other XO do not showup 
in the network when I am sucessfully connected.

This confirm Samuel report of issue of networking in XO-1 on the new build. 
Hope this can be fixed.

-Original Message-
From: James Cameron [mailto:qu...@laptop.org]
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2015 07:47 AM
To: 'Martin Abente'
Cc: 'OLPC Devel', sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
Subject: Re: Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

On Fri, Mar 06, 2015 at 08:13:03PM -0300, Martin Abente wrote:
 
 On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Samuel Greenfeld [1]sam...@greenfeld.org
 wrote:
 
   □ The language control panel problem appears to just be a first-boot
 issue.  If broken, rebooting should allow the language control panel 
 to
 work.
 
 Has anyone else seen this? I haven't been able to reproduce.

No.

I wonder if it has something to do with manufacturing tags on Samuel's
test machines.

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http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-05 Thread James Cameron

On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 05:15:59PM +, tkk...@nurturingasia.com wrote:
 It will work BUT it will freeze the SD functioning. The XO will
 hang. Hence if the build has if ON the user do not need to turn if
 off manually after logon ASAP before power management kick in!

Power management was already disabled in XO-1 builds from OLPC, because
of other things that don't work with it, so I guess the control panel
for it could be removed.

Meanwhile, don't enable it.

; still too many open blockers for XO-1 idle suspend to work well
[powerd]
enable_idle_suspend=0

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-05 Thread James Cameron

On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 11:38:58AM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
 I don't know if you are already using it, but I updated the
 activities versions used in 0.102 with the latest changes here:
 
 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/Sugar_Labs/0.104

The community builds could certainly benefit from a wider choice from
those activities.

The activity list I've been using in 14.1.0 is quite small, chosen to
make testing practical.

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/14.1.0

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

Looking forward to a rebuild that would work on a SD card for XO-1.

To make life easier when running the XO from SD, turning power management off 
is good:-) 

[powerd]
enable_idle_suspend=0



-Original Message-
From: Samuel Greenfeld [mailto:sam...@greenfeld.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2015 10:25 PM
To: 'Sebastian Silva'
Cc: 'OLPC Devel', sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

No this isn't the build that runs off an SD card.

If there is that much interest I will re-build the XO-1 image with the
additional SD card image tonight.

Apart from the XO-1, the olpc-os-builder configurations I am using are
basically what you see in OLPC's Git repository, with the xx changed to
qq and Community Build added as the name of the deployment.


On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:20 AM, Sebastian Silva sebast...@fuentelibre.org
wrote:

 Downloading

 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/build_2/xo-1/41002qq0.img
 for XO1 now.

 Is this the one that runs off of SD card?

 I'm interested for Perú, but as you can imagine, it doesn't depend on
 me. Our team (Platform team + SomosAzucar) did build the last official
 image Peru is using so who knows.

 Just for your reference, we built the image in 2011, they tested it (and
 we fixed it) all 2012 and they deployed it in 2013-2014.

 It would be good to make something available that is more up to date,
 even if it's not an official update.

 Regards,
 Sebastian


 El 05/03/15 a las 07:06, James Cameron escibió:
  On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:55:13AM -0500, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
  The updated images can be found at
 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/
  builds/14.1.0/build_2/
  I've heard there may be one or two microdeployments some interested in
  SD card builds on XO-1.  If you want to cover that, add the module
  [sd_card_image] to your .ini file.  Let me know if it is broken.
 





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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

It will work BUT it will freeze the SD functioning. The XO will hang. Hence if 
the build has if ON the user do not  need to turn if off manually
after logon ASAP before power management kick in! 

-Original Message-
From: Sebastian Silva [mailto:sebast...@fuentelibre.org]
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 01:07 AM
To: tkk...@nurturingasia.com, 'Samuel Greenfeld'
Cc: 'OLPC Devel', sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

Does power management not work with the SD card version?

El 05/03/15 a las 11:54, tkk...@nurturingasia.com escibió:
 Looking forward to a rebuild that would work on a SD card for XO-1.

 To make life easier when running the XO from SD, turning power management 
 off is good:-) 

 [powerd]
 enable_idle_suspend=0

 -Original Message-
 From: Samuel Greenfeld [mailto:sam...@greenfeld.org]
 Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2015 10:25 PM
 To: 'Sebastian Silva'
 Cc: 'OLPC Devel', sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
 Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

 No this isn't the build that runs off an SD card.

 If there is that much interest I will re-build the XO-1 image with the
 additional SD card image tonight.

 Apart from the XO-1, the olpc-os-builder configurations I am using are
 basically what you see in OLPC's Git repository, with the xx changed to
 qq and Community Build added as the name of the deployment.

 On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:20 AM, Sebastian Silva sebast...@fuentelibre.org
 wrote:

 Downloading

 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/build_2/xo-1/41002qq0.img
 for XO1 now.

 Is this the one that runs off of SD card?

 I'm interested for Perú, but as you can imagine, it doesn't depend on
 me. Our team (Platform team + SomosAzucar) did build the last official
 image Peru is using so who knows.

 Just for your reference, we built the image in 2011, they tested it (and
 we fixed it) all 2012 and they deployed it in 2013-2014.

 It would be good to make something available that is more up to date,
 even if it's not an official update.

 Regards,
 Sebastian

 El 05/03/15 a las 07:06, James Cameron escibió:
 On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:55:13AM -0500, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
 The updated images can be found at
 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/
 builds/14.1.0/build_2/
 I've heard there may be one or two microdeployments some interested in
 SD card builds on XO-1.  If you want to cover that, add the module
 [sd_card_image] to your .ini file.  Let me know if it is broken.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

Does power management not work with the SD card version?

El 05/03/15 a las 11:54, tkk...@nurturingasia.com escibió:
 Looking forward to a rebuild that would work on a SD card for XO-1.

 To make life easier when running the XO from SD, turning power management off 
 is good:-) 

 [powerd]
 enable_idle_suspend=0



 -Original Message-
 From: Samuel Greenfeld [mailto:sam...@greenfeld.org]
 Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2015 10:25 PM
 To: 'Sebastian Silva'
 Cc: 'OLPC Devel', sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
 Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

 No this isn't the build that runs off an SD card.

 If there is that much interest I will re-build the XO-1 image with the
 additional SD card image tonight.

 Apart from the XO-1, the olpc-os-builder configurations I am using are
 basically what you see in OLPC's Git repository, with the xx changed to
 qq and Community Build added as the name of the deployment.


 On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:20 AM, Sebastian Silva sebast...@fuentelibre.org
 wrote:

 Downloading

 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/build_2/xo-1/41002qq0.img
 for XO1 now.

 Is this the one that runs off of SD card?

 I'm interested for Perú, but as you can imagine, it doesn't depend on
 me. Our team (Platform team + SomosAzucar) did build the last official
 image Peru is using so who knows.

 Just for your reference, we built the image in 2011, they tested it (and
 we fixed it) all 2012 and they deployed it in 2013-2014.

 It would be good to make something available that is more up to date,
 even if it's not an official update.

 Regards,
 Sebastian


 El 05/03/15 a las 07:06, James Cameron escibió:
 On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:55:13AM -0500, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
 The updated images can be found at
 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/
 builds/14.1.0/build_2/
 I've heard there may be one or two microdeployments some interested in
 SD card builds on XO-1.  If you want to cover that, add the module
 [sd_card_image] to your .ini file.  Let me know if it is broken.




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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

Hi Samuel, James,
I am interested to try this as well.
where can I find images to try first, before committing to creating new
builds?

Regards,
Sebastian

El 05/03/15 a las 07:06, James Cameron escibió:
 On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:55:13AM -0500, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
 The updated images can be found at http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/
 builds/14.1.0/build_2/
 I've heard there may be one or two microdeployments some interested in
 SD card builds on XO-1.  If you want to cover that, add the module
 [sd_card_image] to your .ini file.  Let me know if it is broken.


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[Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-05 Thread Samuel Greenfeld

I have updated the XO-1/1.5/1.75/4 images I previously made.

The updated images can be found at
http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/build_2/

Again, these images are not supported by OLPC.

It would be useful to know who actually might actually deploy these images,
as there has not been much of a response so far.  There are relatively few
people working on XO software at the moment, and we need more help in order
to create a polished release.

Bug reports about these images can be filed in dev.laptop.org with the
commbuild keyword.

Changes from the last build:

   - Sugar 0.104 is now included.
   - The language control panel problem appears to just be a first-boot
   issue.  If broken, rebooting should allow the language control panel to
   work.
   - On XO-1, the Linux kernel has been downgraded to a Fedora 18/Linux 3.8
   OLPC/XO kernel to solve the excess CPU usage.  But mesh networking is not
   coming online, and collaboration on XO-1 may be more generally broken.

Known major issues still outstanding:

   - The XO-1.5 camera (OLPC #12858) and suspend (OLPC #12859) problems
   still exist.
   - On XO-4, programs may randomly crash (OLPC #12837).
   - On XO-4, the on-screen keyboard does not appear in ebook mode, and
   cannot be used (OLPC #12865).
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

+1 as I am in that category :-)

-Original Message-
From: James Cameron [mailto:qu...@laptop.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2015 08:06 PM
To: 'Samuel Greenfeld'
Cc: 'OLPC Devel', sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
Subject: Re: Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:55:13AM -0500, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
 The updated images can be found at http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/
 builds/14.1.0/build_2/

I've heard there may be one or two microdeployments some interested in
SD card builds on XO-1.  If you want to cover that, add the module
[sd_card_image] to your .ini file.  Let me know if it is broken.

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-05 Thread Samuel Greenfeld

No this isn't the build that runs off an SD card.

If there is that much interest I will re-build the XO-1 image with the
additional SD card image tonight.

Apart from the XO-1, the olpc-os-builder configurations I am using are
basically what you see in OLPC's Git repository, with the xx changed to
qq and Community Build added as the name of the deployment.


On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:20 AM, Sebastian Silva sebast...@fuentelibre.org
wrote:

 Downloading

 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/build_2/xo-1/41002qq0.img
 for XO1 now.

 Is this the one that runs off of SD card?

 I'm interested for Perú, but as you can imagine, it doesn't depend on
 me. Our team (Platform team + SomosAzucar) did build the last official
 image Peru is using so who knows.

 Just for your reference, we built the image in 2011, they tested it (and
 we fixed it) all 2012 and they deployed it in 2013-2014.

 It would be good to make something available that is more up to date,
 even if it's not an official update.

 Regards,
 Sebastian


 El 05/03/15 a las 07:06, James Cameron escibió:
  On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:55:13AM -0500, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
  The updated images can be found at
 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/
  builds/14.1.0/build_2/
  I've heard there may be one or two microdeployments some interested in
  SD card builds on XO-1.  If you want to cover that, add the module
  [sd_card_image] to your .ini file.  Let me know if it is broken.
 


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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

Hola Samuel,

Thanks for doing this. If it's a simple matter for you to post the
sd-card images, I would appreciate.
It's not urgent. Hopefully I can contribute back a bit or two.

Regards,
Sebastian

El 05/03/15 a las 09:25, Samuel Greenfeld escibió:
 No this isn't the build that runs off an SD card.

 If there is that much interest I will re-build the XO-1 image with the
 additional SD card image tonight.

 Apart from the XO-1, the olpc-os-builder configurations I am using are
 basically what you see in OLPC's Git repository, with the xx changed
 to qq and Community Build added as the name of the deployment.


 On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:20 AM, Sebastian Silva
 sebast...@fuentelibre.org mailto:sebast...@fuentelibre.org wrote:

 Downloading
 
 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/build_2/xo-1/41002qq0.img
 for XO1 now.

 Is this the one that runs off of SD card?

 I'm interested for Perú, but as you can imagine, it doesn't depend on
 me. Our team (Platform team + SomosAzucar) did build the last official
 image Peru is using so who knows.

 Just for your reference, we built the image in 2011, they tested
 it (and
 we fixed it) all 2012 and they deployed it in 2013-2014.

 It would be good to make something available that is more up to date,
 even if it's not an official update.

 Regards,
 Sebastian


 El 05/03/15 a las 07:06, James Cameron escibió:
  On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:55:13AM -0500, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
  The updated images can be found at
 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/
  builds/14.1.0/build_2/
  I've heard there may be one or two microdeployments some
 interested in
  SD card builds on XO-1.  If you want to cover that, add the module
  [sd_card_image] to your .ini file.  Let me know if it is broken.
 



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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

Downloading
http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/build_2/xo-1/41002qq0.img
for XO1 now.

Is this the one that runs off of SD card?

I'm interested for Perú, but as you can imagine, it doesn't depend on
me. Our team (Platform team + SomosAzucar) did build the last official
image Peru is using so who knows.

Just for your reference, we built the image in 2011, they tested it (and
we fixed it) all 2012 and they deployed it in 2013-2014.

It would be good to make something available that is more up to date,
even if it's not an official update.

Regards,
Sebastian


El 05/03/15 a las 07:06, James Cameron escibió:
 On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:55:13AM -0500, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
 The updated images can be found at http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/
 builds/14.1.0/build_2/
 I've heard there may be one or two microdeployments some interested in
 SD card builds on XO-1.  If you want to cover that, add the module
 [sd_card_image] to your .ini file.  Let me know if it is broken.


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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-05 Thread Gonzalo Odiard

I don't know if you are already using it, but I updated the activities
versions used in 0.102 with the latest changes here:

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/Sugar_Labs/0.104

Gonzalo

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Samuel Greenfeld sam...@greenfeld.org
wrote:

 I have updated the XO-1/1.5/1.75/4 images I previously made.

 The updated images can be found at
 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/build_2/

 Again, these images are not supported by OLPC.

 It would be useful to know who actually might actually deploy these
 images, as there has not been much of a response so far.  There are
 relatively few people working on XO software at the moment, and we need
 more help in order to create a polished release.

 Bug reports about these images can be filed in dev.laptop.org with the
 commbuild keyword.

 Changes from the last build:

- Sugar 0.104 is now included.
- The language control panel problem appears to just be a first-boot
issue.  If broken, rebooting should allow the language control panel to
work.
- On XO-1, the Linux kernel has been downgraded to a Fedora 18/Linux
3.8 OLPC/XO kernel to solve the excess CPU usage.  But mesh networking is
not coming online, and collaboration on XO-1 may be more generally broken.

 Known major issues still outstanding:

- The XO-1.5 camera (OLPC #12858) and suspend (OLPC #12859) problems
still exist.
- On XO-4, programs may randomly crash (OLPC #12837).
- On XO-4, the on-screen keyboard does not appear in ebook mode, and
cannot be used (OLPC #12865).



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SugarLabs - Software for children learning
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

Great... downloading it for testing. Would love to see how well video playing 
and streaming work with the new images.

Thanks.

-Original Message-
From: Samuel Greenfeld [mailto:sam...@greenfeld.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2015 07:55 PM
To: 'OLPC Devel', sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
Subject: Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

I have updated the XO-1/1.5/1.75/4 images I previously made.

The updated images can be found at
http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/build_2/

Again, these images are not supported by OLPC.

It would be useful to know who actually might actually deploy these images,
as there has not been much of a response so far.  There are relatively few
people working on XO software at the moment, and we need more help in order
to create a polished release.

Bug reports about these images can be filed in dev.laptop.org with the
commbuild keyword.

Changes from the last build:

   - Sugar 0.104 is now included.
   - The language control panel problem appears to just be a first-boot
   issue.  If broken, rebooting should allow the language control panel to
   work.
   - On XO-1, the Linux kernel has been downgraded to a Fedora 18/Linux 3.8
   OLPC/XO kernel to solve the excess CPU usage.  But mesh networking is not
   coming online, and collaboration on XO-1 may be more generally broken.

Known major issues still outstanding:

   - The XO-1.5 camera (OLPC #12858) and suspend (OLPC #12859) problems
   still exist.
   - On XO-4, programs may randomly crash (OLPC #12837).
   - On XO-4, the on-screen keyboard does not appear in ebook mode, and
   cannot be used (OLPC #12865).

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-05 Thread James Cameron

On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:55:13AM -0500, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
 The updated images can be found at http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/
 builds/14.1.0/build_2/

I've heard there may be one or two microdeployments some interested in
SD card builds on XO-1.  If you want to cover that, add the module
[sd_card_image] to your .ini file.  Let me know if it is broken.

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.linux.org.au/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-05 Thread Samuel Greenfeld

No; these are unsigned images which only can be installed on unlocked
laptops via fs-update (such as fs-update u:\41002qq4.zd if the image is
in the root directory of a USB stick).

These images also do not have the licensed codecs or accelerated video
drivers OLPC has obtained for XO-4s and certain deployment's older XOs, as
these are not distributed publicly.

The activities I have are what James chose at
wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/14.1.0 , minus Wikipedia and Physics on the
XO-1.

In general we need to determine what should be include in the XO-1 builds,
as the internal flash storage only has 1 GB of space.  Over time newer
versions of Fedora have resulted in larger XO images, and there is only so
much we can do to compensate for that.


On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:30 AM, Thomas Gilliard satelli...@gmail.com
wrote:

  Don't I need a fs4.zip also?

 Tom Gilliard

 On 03/05/2015 06:25 AM, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:

  No this isn't the build that runs off an SD card.

  If there is that much interest I will re-build the XO-1 image with the
 additional SD card image tonight.

  Apart from the XO-1, the olpc-os-builder configurations I am using are
 basically what you see in OLPC's Git repository, with the xx changed to
 qq and Community Build added as the name of the deployment.


 On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:20 AM, Sebastian Silva sebast...@fuentelibre.org
  wrote:

 Downloading

 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/build_2/xo-1/41002qq0.img
 for XO1 now.

 Is this the one that runs off of SD card?

 I'm interested for Perú, but as you can imagine, it doesn't depend on
 me. Our team (Platform team + SomosAzucar) did build the last official
 image Peru is using so who knows.

 Just for your reference, we built the image in 2011, they tested it (and
 we fixed it) all 2012 and they deployed it in 2013-2014.

 It would be good to make something available that is more up to date,
 even if it's not an official update.

 Regards,
 Sebastian


 El 05/03/15 a las 07:06, James Cameron escibió:
   On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 06:55:13AM -0500, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:
  The updated images can be found at
 http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/
  builds/14.1.0/build_2/
  I've heard there may be one or two microdeployments some interested in
  SD card builds on XO-1.  If you want to cover that, add the module
  [sd_card_image] to your .ini file.  Let me know if it is broken.
 




 ___
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community OS 14.1.0 Version 2

2015-03-05 Thread Adam Holt

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Samuel Greenfeld sam...@greenfeld.org
wrote:

I have updated the XO-1/1.5/1.75/4 images I previously made.

The updated images can be found at
http://www.greenfeld.org/xo/community/builds/14.1.0/build_2/

Profound Thanks Sam, and the Many Others behind this work. Nobody wants to
believe it outside of Silicon Valley's plastic bubble, but I continue to be
SHOCKED by the number of XO-1 and XO-1.5s in very active use. I too
(thought) they'd be put out to pasture long ago, per the 5-year design life
of these machines, arising from a very different decade.

But that's just not the case, three years after $49.99 Android tablets
appeared.

Instead, we're now closer the next decade (2020 vision ;) and confoundingly
I'm getting as many thoughtful support requests as ever 8 years later.
Incredibly legit community/education vectors included...So Refreshingly!
Certainly generations beyond our MIT founder's penchant for
ID-as-Industrial Design. Rather than ID-as-International Development.

I did not think this possible in 2011-2013, when all too much was winding
down. But wouldn't it be truly LOVELY if our community could consolidate
OS support across most of these 4 machines for starters, into a (XO-1,
XO-1.5, XO-1.75, XO-4) 2020 Vision --- despite very obvious
imperfections/compromises that will certainly need to be made along the way.

Fascinating how everybody loves to mock France. And yet France is the
*only* country worldwide with a backbone to actually Stand Up to so many
sick business models of planned obsolescence, right now endangering our
planet:

End Of The Line For Stuff That's Built To Die? A new French law demands
that manufacturers display how long their appliances will last.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/shortcuts/2015/mar/03/has-planned-obsolesence-had-its-day-design

Yes or no, do we want to live in a Black-Box Society where education is
reduced to Facebook or its advertisers having the power (legally, for now)
to swing elections at the touch of a button, and NSA can lie with impunity
before Congress? Yes or no, do we want to buy yet more disposable
software, on toxic glimmering junk, to pile upon our grandchildren's planet
whatever's left of it? If our post-Negroponte movement's going to steal 1
good idea from Steve Jobs' original age-old pre-cloudy business model, how
about it: a few more tools that last, a few more tools that we can trust, a
few more tools that Respect Kids...

Tough post-Negroponte community leadership compromises will need to be
made. But who would have thought that the French, even Monsieur McDonalds
this week not just Piketty, are leading us back to sanity -- genuinely
informed market choices about what we're buying and what it's doing to
every generation? Who would have thought in 2007 that that RACHEL-based
microservers (Remote Area Community Hotspot for Education) would
essentially take over @ Southern Calif Linux Expo as they did 2 weeks ago? *En
Avant!!*

Again, these images are not supported by OLPC.

It would be useful to know who actually might actually deploy these
images, as there has not been much of a response so far. There are
relatively few people working on XO software at the moment, and we need
more help in order to create a polished release.

Bug reports about these images can be filed in dev.laptop.org with the
commbuild keyword.

Changes from the last build:

- Sugar 0.104 is now included.
- The language control panel problem appears to just be a first-boot
issue. If broken, rebooting should allow the language control panel to
work.
- On XO-1, the Linux kernel has been downgraded to a Fedora 18/Linux
3.8 OLPC/XO kernel to solve the excess CPU usage. But mesh networking is
not coming online, and collaboration on XO-1 may be more generally broken.

Known major issues still outstanding:

- The XO-1.5 camera (OLPC #12858) and suspend (OLPC #12859) problems
still exist.
- On XO-4, programs may randomly crash (OLPC #12837).
- On XO-4, the on-screen keyboard does not appear in ebook mode, and
cannot be used (OLPC #12865).

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[Sugar-devel] Community Summit

2013-10-02 Thread Sameer Verma

We are gearing up to host the 5th OLPC SF Community Summit. Oct 18-20. The
schedule is starting to shape up at
http://www.olpcsf.org/CommunitySummit2013/schedule All those TBA that you
see? That could be you :-) Submit a proposal soon!
http://www.olpcsf.org/CommunitySummit2013/proposal

Registration is now open via Eventbrite:
http://www.olpcsf.org/CommunitySummit2013/registration Please do sign up,
if you are planning on coming. It gives us an idea on the attendance and of
course creates revenue to host the event. We don't make any money (in fact,
we lose some money, but it's for a great cause).

If you need a letter for travel purposes, let us know. olp...@gmail.com

If you are not planning on being here, send in a poster!
http://www.olpcsf.org/CommunitySummit2013/posters

Hope to see you all soon!

cheers,
Sameer
-- 
Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Professor, Information Systems
San Francisco State University
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://commons.sfsu.edu/
http://olpcsf.org/
http://olpcjamaica.org.jm/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community

2010-09-02 Thread Sascha Silbe

Excerpts from Martin Abente's message of Tue Aug 31 20:44:25 +0200 2010:

[Organising a Sugar game session, e.g. Sauerbraten]
 Why not Quake?! Quake 2 coop mode was fun ;)
AFAICT the Quake 2 game data is still proprietary, so not available to
everyone (legally). Open Arena [1] would be an Open Source alternative.
The latter (being based on Quake 3 which has a very different single
player mode than Quake 2) shares the drawback of Sauerbraten that
there's no co-op mode, though it does at least support bots (while
Sauerbraten doesn't).
Doom 2 with FreeDoom data files supports co-op mode; there's even an
activity for it [2]. I have a feeling it incorporates binary code and
won't work on most systems, but AFAIK most distros ship it so that's
not an issue. ;)

 I am not suggesting to eliminate the current process, I am just saying
 that we should define clear parameters that could help to minimize the
 current bottle necks generated by the current number of
 maintainers/reviewers and the difficulties of agreement at the coding and
 designing stages, respectively.

Do you have any concrete idea what we could do to improve or speed up
the process? What would you consider the most important blocker / what
took most of your time?

Sascha

[1] http://openarena.ws/
[2] http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Doom
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[Sugar-devel] Community (was: Re: Bug tracking Vs Patch review)

2010-08-31 Thread Sascha Silbe

Excerpts from Tomeu Vizoso's message of Tue Aug 31 10:33:40 +0200 2010:

 Yes, we agreed on that, but then, just for the sake of argument,
 several unchecked statements were made that unfairly represented the
 current Sugar development model and the work of several members of our
 community.
[...]
 Again, you are misrepresenting me just for the sake of argument,
[...]
 And we are going to fix this by throwing shit to our colleagues.
[...]
 One person is working on merging them, several others have preferred
 just to complain about it.
[...]
 Visible because someone has invested a lot of time giving it
 visibility in the mailing list and made bombastic statements so other
 people were forcedly dragged into the discussion?

And so on.

Please sit back, have a cup of your favourite beverage and relax.

We all care very much about Sugar. But we should care equally much about
each other, not engage in dirty fights. If you want to blow off some
steam, please consider organising a Sugar Labs deathmatch [1] and/or
co-op match [2] instead. Sauerbraten [3] not only has nice, clean,
easily hackable code and an in-game map editor, but is also a fun and
awesome-looking game (though it doesn't have a co-op match mode, only
co-op editing).

FWIW, I can totally relate to Bernie; I have even stopped trying to get
most of my patches into mainline, including bug fixes. So we definitely
need to find some solution. Not necessarily THE solution; we can always
revise the process. But the current state hurts us (= Sugar Labs) very
much.

What do you think about a model where we have some git repo that
everyone can commit to after they got, say, at least two Reviewed-By
(including one from a core / long-term developer)? The contributors
would get more testing of their work (= less bugs in the release) and
the module maintainers would be able to pick resp. skip the patches they
feel (un)comfortable with.

Another idea would be a mailing list where early versions of patches are
posted and can get some (incomplete) review. This would allow
contributors to get fast  easy feedback with a limited amount of time
spent for the reviewers. Reviews could just point out a subset of issues;
a thorough review and deciding whether it's good enough to be merged
would happen like above.

This would be a perfect fit for a Sugar Camp session; unfortunately I
don't see one coming up at any place I could commit on attending in
the near future. But maybe you (Tomeu), Aleksey, Bernie and James
(Cameron) could try a face-to-face meeting to lay some foundation?
I imagine Mel would be an awesome moderator.

Sascha

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathmatch_(gaming)
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_gameplay
[3] http://sauerbraten.org/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community (was: Re: Bug tracking Vs Patch review)

2010-08-31 Thread Tomeu Vizoso

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:49, Sascha Silbe
sascha-ml-reply-to-201...@silbe.org wrote:
 Excerpts from Tomeu Vizoso's message of Tue Aug 31 10:33:40 +0200 2010:

 Yes, we agreed on that, but then, just for the sake of argument,
 several unchecked statements were made that unfairly represented the
 current Sugar development model and the work of several members of our
 community.
 [...]
 Again, you are misrepresenting me just for the sake of argument,
 [...]
 And we are going to fix this by throwing shit to our colleagues.
 [...]
 One person is working on merging them, several others have preferred
 just to complain about it.
 [...]
 Visible because someone has invested a lot of time giving it
 visibility in the mailing list and made bombastic statements so other
 people were forcedly dragged into the discussion?

 And so on.

 Please sit back, have a cup of your favourite beverage and relax.

 We all care very much about Sugar. But we should care equally much about
 each other, not engage in dirty fights. If you want to blow off some
 steam, please consider organising a Sugar Labs deathmatch [1] and/or
 co-op match [2] instead. Sauerbraten [3] not only has nice, clean,
 easily hackable code and an in-game map editor, but is also a fun and
 awesome-looking game (though it doesn't have a co-op match mode, only
 co-op editing).

Frankly, just calming down the rhetoric and sticking to the facts
would help a big deal. We're not trying to manage anything that other
communities haven't managed to get with.

 FWIW, I can totally relate to Bernie; I have even stopped trying to get
 most of my patches into mainline, including bug fixes. So we definitely
 need to find some solution. Not necessarily THE solution; we can always
 revise the process. But the current state hurts us (= Sugar Labs) very
 much.

I'm not saying things are ok, just that complaining about what we have
now is not going to fix anything by itself.

 What do you think about a model where we have some git repo that
 everyone can commit to after they got, say, at least two Reviewed-By
 (including one from a core / long-term developer)? The contributors
 would get more testing of their work (= less bugs in the release) and
 the module maintainers would be able to pick resp. skip the patches they
 feel (un)comfortable with.

But then we would need to resync at some point or merging would get
worst with time?

 Another idea would be a mailing list where early versions of patches are
 posted and can get some (incomplete) review. This would allow
 contributors to get fast  easy feedback with a limited amount of time
 spent for the reviewers. Reviews could just point out a subset of issues;
 a thorough review and deciding whether it's good enough to be merged
 would happen like above.

I liked how it worked in sugar-devel for a while, a separate mailing
list would be also ok if the reviews do disturb people or whatever is
the reason for having stopped doing that.

 This would be a perfect fit for a Sugar Camp session; unfortunately I
 don't see one coming up at any place I could commit on attending in
 the near future. But maybe you (Tomeu), Aleksey, Bernie and James
 (Cameron) could try a face-to-face meeting to lay some foundation?
 I imagine Mel would be an awesome moderator.

Most productive discussion about this issue was with Marco whom said
he would try to find time to adapt Patchwork to our needs. I'm pretty
sure he won't mind help from the many people that care about this
issue. Any volunteers?

Regards,

Tomeu

 Sascha

 [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathmatch_(gaming)
 [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_gameplay
 [3] http://sauerbraten.org/
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 http://www.infra-silbe.de/

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Community (was: Re: Bug tracking Vs Patch review)

2010-08-31 Thread Martin Abente

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:49:03 +0200, Sascha Silbe
sascha-ml-reply-to-201...@silbe.org wrote:
 Excerpts from Tomeu Vizoso's message of Tue Aug 31 10:33:40 +0200 2010:
 
 Yes, we agreed on that, but then, just for the sake of argument,
 several unchecked statements were made that unfairly represented the
 current Sugar development model and the work of several members of our
 community.
 [...]
 Again, you are misrepresenting me just for the sake of argument,
 [...]
 And we are going to fix this by throwing shit to our colleagues.
 [...]
 One person is working on merging them, several others have preferred
 just to complain about it.
 [...]
 Visible because someone has invested a lot of time giving it
 visibility in the mailing list and made bombastic statements so other
 people were forcedly dragged into the discussion?
 
 And so on.
 
 Please sit back, have a cup of your favourite beverage and relax.
 
 We all care very much about Sugar. But we should care equally much about
 each other, not engage in dirty fights. ...


+1


 ... If you want to blow off some
 steam, please consider organising a Sugar Labs deathmatch [1] and/or
 co-op match [2] instead. Sauerbraten [3] not only has nice, clean,
 easily hackable code and an in-game map editor, but is also a fun and
 awesome-looking game (though it doesn't have a co-op match mode, only
 co-op editing).
 


Why not Quake?! Quake 2 coop mode was fun ;)


 FWIW, I can totally relate to Bernie; I have even stopped trying to get
 most of my patches into mainline, including bug fixes. So we definitely
 need to find some solution. Not necessarily THE solution; we can always
 revise the process. But the current state hurts us (= Sugar Labs) very
 much.



From the deployment-development-guy view I think that the hardest part is
the huge amount of time required to properly achieved all the steps of the
current process. In general, that amount of time is not available for
deployment developers. Please, keep in mind that deployments do more than
only Sugar devel, but yet we should encourage them to contribute to the
Sugar design and to the mainline code base as much as possible.

I am not suggesting to eliminate the current process, I am just saying
that we should define clear parameters that could help to minimize the
current bottle necks generated by the current number of
maintainers/reviewers and the difficulties of agreement at the coding and
designing stages, respectively.

 
 Another idea would be a mailing list where early versions of patches are
 posted and can get some (incomplete) review. This would allow
 contributors to get fast  easy feedback with a limited amount of time
 spent for the reviewers. Reviews could just point out a subset of
issues;
 a thorough review and deciding whether it's good enough to be merged
 would happen like above.
 

+1

This could be helpful as a pre-design stage for upstream features.


 ...
 
 Sascha
 
 [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathmatch_(gaming)
 [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_gameplay
 [3] http://sauerbraten.org/
 --
 http://sascha.silbe.org/
 http://www.infra-silbe.de/
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[Sugar-devel] community support

2009-08-14 Thread David Farning

http://getsatisfaction.com/sugarlabs is getting some questions from users.

If you are interest in community support, here is your chance:)

david
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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

2009-07-29 Thread Tomeu Vizoso

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 06:05, Daniel Draked...@laptop.org wrote:
 2009/7/29 Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com:
 Daniel, could you start the ball rolling by being more explicit about
 some specific unmet needs of deployments that might be actionable?

 OK, where should we make such a list?

You can put such requests in a new wiki page, and/or create feature
pages, and/or enter tickets in trac, and/or send them to the mailing
list for discussion and awareness.

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Gardner_Pilot_Academy (see bottom of the page)
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Policy

I'm not sure what combination of those channels will work better for
you. Any opinions about how deployments can make better their needs
better known?

Also, deployments may want to be aware of the release schedule in
order to reduce the time to market of their features.

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Release/Roadmap

Regards,

Tomeu

 Daniel
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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

2009-07-29 Thread Philippe Clérié

 For what it is worth, it is easy enough to add activities to the
 Fedora SoaS; 

I don't doubt that. But at this stage I'm only looking at what is 
already packaged. TamTam does not seem to be packaged by Fedora or 
Ubuntu.

 presumably you'll be doing a local replication of
 your image?

I am not sure what you mean...

-- 

Philippe

--
The trouble with common sense is that it is so uncommon.
Anonymous

On Wednesday 29 July 2009 08:14:50 Walter Bender wrote:


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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

2009-07-29 Thread Bert Freudenberg


On 28.07.2009, at 07:22, Martin Dengler wrote:

 On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 03:24:13PM +0545, Daniel Drake wrote:

 However, I feel like it could be better if the community (who I
 might even stretch to call customers) could have more influence.
 [...]  What are the options for the community having more of an
 influence here?

 Influence on whom?  Developers?  There are no SugarLabs employed
 developers.


But if we get feedback from the front line, from teachers actually  
using our software in the field, the volunteer developers I know  
struggle to find a way to make it easier for them. Nothing beats  
direct contact with children of course, but even meeting teachers from  
the deployments and hearing first-hand accounts of the problems (and  
successes!) is rather motivating. Reading these reports on a mailing  
list is less emotionally moving but still a great hint at how to  
prioritize one's spare time.

The problem is we get way too few feedback.

- Bert -

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[Sugar-devel] community influence on development

2009-07-28 Thread Daniel Drake

quoting Tomeu from another thread (with no bad feelings at all):

Sugar Labs has currently no resources to focus on anything, it
depends on volunteers doing whatever they want. I chose to spend my
time to make easier for more people to bring their knowledge and
experience to Sugar and the community has no say on this.

Perfectly reasonable answer and this kind of development model works
well for open source projects, including this one. However, I feel
like it could be better if the community (who I might even stretch to
call customers) could have more influence.

so..to create an open thread:

What are the options for the community having more of an influence here?
One would be to somehow get sugarlabs to hire people, and somehow
process customer feedback and assign technical tasks to payroll
developers. Are there others?


Having now visited 3 large deployments I feel frustrated that most of
the features and changes entering sugar are not increasing
deployability or increasing the educational impact of the platform.
General technical and usability improvements are always needed (and
are always of value) but I feel that the balance is wrong and I feel
that I have not been very successful in getting community members to
understand the needs of deployments.

Daniel
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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

[adding IAEP to cc]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:39, Daniel Draked...@laptop.org wrote:
 quoting Tomeu from another thread (with no bad feelings at all):

 Sugar Labs has currently no resources to focus on anything, it
 depends on volunteers doing whatever they want. I chose to spend my
 time to make easier for more people to bring their knowledge and
 experience to Sugar and the community has no say on this.

 Perfectly reasonable answer and this kind of development model works
 well for open source projects, including this one. However, I feel
 like it could be better if the community (who I might even stretch to
 call customers) could have more influence.

 so..to create an open thread:

 What are the options for the community having more of an influence here?
 One would be to somehow get sugarlabs to hire people, and somehow
 process customer feedback and assign technical tasks to payroll
 developers. Are there others?

Yes, if deployers make very clear what is a priority for them and do
so in a compelling way, I'm sure volunteer developers will make their
plans accordingly.

The feature proposal process is a start on this, we need to improve it
until the features in each release reflect what is needed from the
field.

 Having now visited 3 large deployments I feel frustrated that most of
 the features and changes entering sugar are not increasing
 deployability or increasing the educational impact of the platform.
 General technical and usability improvements are always needed (and
 are always of value) but I feel that the balance is wrong and I feel
 that I have not been very successful in getting community members to
 understand the needs of deployments.

Agreed, though when developers ask for feedback on the mailing list,
they get often no replies. And when we get replies, are from fellow
hobbyist developers which have no better insight on what the users
actually need so some bike shedding ensures.

I think this topic is really big for SLs, thanks for bringing it in.

Regards,

Tomeu

 Daniel
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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

2009-07-28 Thread Martin Dengler

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 03:24:13PM +0545, Daniel Drake wrote:

 However, I feel like it could be better if the community (who I
 might even stretch to call customers) could have more influence.
 [...]  What are the options for the community having more of an
 influence here?

Influence on whom?  Developers?  There are no SugarLabs employed
developers.

Other community members?  Committers?

 Daniel

Martin


pgpx1APEk0QEu.pgp
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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

2009-07-28 Thread Caroline Meeks

Great thread!

Personally I feel very heard by the development team.

I personally don't hear the voice of the XO deployments saying what is
needed for them. I admit i have limited time and so I focus on things that
are relevent to SoaS but I still would have expected to be interacting with
people from the XO Deployments as we do feature planning for the next
release. I don't want to be the only deployment voice, the needs of the XO
deployments are important. This is just meant as feedback, that whatever
channels you are using to communicate your needs and priorities they aren't
reaching me.

I spend a lot of time trying to make the SoaS needs concrete and grounded in
use cases. I make lots of lists, I post them on lots of different lists and
wikis. I put in tickets.

Currently I'm working on making Sugar on a Stick more deployable:
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/TODO#Sugar_on_a_Stick_Improve_Deployability

What I've noticed about this list is its contains mostly tasks that aren't
within the core competencies of our current development team. So I think my
strategy will be to try to get the current people to help me define and
explain the tasks then try to recruit some experts in these fields to join
us and help us come up with solutions. I don't know if it will work, but it
seems worth a try.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 5:39 AM, Daniel Drake d...@laptop.org wrote:

quoting Tomeu from another thread (with no bad feelings at all):

Sugar Labs has currently no resources to focus on anything, it
depends on volunteers doing whatever they want. I chose to spend my
time to make easier for more people to bring their knowledge and
experience to Sugar and the community has no say on this.

Perfectly reasonable answer and this kind of development model works
well for open source projects, including this one. However, I feel
like it could be better if the community (who I might even stretch to
call customers) could have more influence.

so..to create an open thread:

What are the options for the community having more of an influence here?
One would be to somehow get sugarlabs to hire people, and somehow
process customer feedback and assign technical tasks to payroll
developers. Are there others?

- process customer feedback - I think this is very important.

I started a thread on the systems board about whether or not we should try
UserVoices to make it easier for users to give thier feedback. I'd love it
if you would join that discussion. I think trac is not suitable for
collecting customer feedback.

Having now visited 3 large deployments I feel frustrated that most of
the features and changes entering sugar are not increasing
deployability or increasing the educational impact of the platform.
General technical and usability improvements are always needed (and
are always of value) but I feel that the balance is wrong and I feel
that

I feel
that I have not been very successful in getting community members to
understand the needs of deployments.

+1, how can we help you be more

So to take a process view what we need is.

1. Deployments to give feedback to SugarLabs
2. Sugar Community to process that feedback in a way that allows them to
understand the needs of the Deployments
3. Sugar Community to create a technical plans/projects for meeting those
needs
4. Volunteer developers to change what they work on in response to the
needs of the deployments and/or new volunteers entering the community to
work on these needs

Looking at the issues here:
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/TODO#Sugar_on_a_Stick_Improve_Deployability-
Mostly they are stuck at Step 3.

Stuck at 3 - We don't have a good plan for solving the problem or to put it
another way, we don't technically understand the issues well enough to know
the right way, or sometimes anyway, to fix them.

- Sticks are dieing a lot - Make sticks more robust
- What is a reasonable expectation for the role of the XS in Sugar on a
Stick deployments in the next 6 months?
- Collaboration is unreliable and thus frustrating
- Using a CD helper takes a lot of prep time before and after class (to
the extent we need to change the format of the files on the USB we don't
have a solid plan yet.

Only a few are stuck at 4, where there are some clear tasks but no one has
actually done them yet.

- Make it easier for a teacher or school to customize a spin and then
copy it for a hundred kids -
- Using a CD helper takes a lot of prep time before and after class -
(creating a floppy helper)

So from my experience the bottle neck is figuring out how to solve the
problems. Do you have a list of high priority problems that you could do a
similar analysis on? It would be interesting to see what the similarity and
differences are.

Daniel
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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 14:43, Bastienbastiengue...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Caroline Meeks solutiongr...@gmail.com writes:

 I personally don't hear the voice of the XO deployments saying what is
 needed for them.

 When I was in Haiti, being able to interact with Greg was really
 helpful.  I knew there was someone I could nag about things that
 bothered me with the XOs and Sugar, and I knew he'd give weight
 to my feedback in the Sugar community.

 Maybe Sugar should define such a role (does it have a name?)

 Daniel, do you think that could help?

This sounds good for Sugar Labs to pull feedback from the field.

 Of course, deployments should also have someone whose job is to
 give such feedback.  But usually it's de facto the guy who best
 knows GNU/Linux and Sugar.

 If such a role is defined, I volunteer to take it from september
 till the end of november.

About having a person at every deployment, some months ago I started
creating this list of contacts:

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Team/Places

Maybe this time we'll have more luck having people listed there?

Btw, why is this thread in sugar-devel instead of in IAEP?

Regards,

Tomeu

 --
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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

2009-07-28 Thread Bastien

Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org writes:

 About having a person at every deployment, some months ago I started
 creating this list of contacts:

 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Team/Places

Thanks for the reminder.  My idea was more to have only *one* person in
Sugar responsible to get/filter/dispatch deployments feedback - just as
Greg was answering requests from various horizons (cc'ing Greg to this
thread.)

 Maybe this time we'll have more luck having people listed there?

Yes - but I'm afraid having the role I mention above is the only way to
activate the list in Deployment_Team/Places

 Btw, why is this thread in sugar-devel instead of in IAEP?

(Well, I'm just a bit cautious about threads jumps...)

-- 
 Bastien
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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

2009-07-28 Thread Bastien

Bastien bastiengue...@googlemail.com writes:

 Greg was answering requests from various horizons (cc'ing Greg to this
 thread.)

(Oops, I forgot to Cc Greg, sorry!)

-- 
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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 14:58, Bastienbastiengue...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org writes:

 About having a person at every deployment, some months ago I started
 creating this list of contacts:

 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Team/Places

 Thanks for the reminder.  My idea was more to have only *one* person in
 Sugar responsible to get/filter/dispatch deployments feedback - just as
 Greg was answering requests from various horizons (cc'ing Greg to this
 thread.)

Ok, thought you wanted both.

 Maybe this time we'll have more luck having people listed there?

 Yes - but I'm afraid having the role I mention above is the only way to
 activate the list in Deployment_Team/Places

Could be, yes.

 Btw, why is this thread in sugar-devel instead of in IAEP?

 (Well, I'm just a bit cautious about threads jumps...)

CC'ing IAEP. I think sugar-devel should be only for technical matters
and iaep should be cc'ed for everything not strictly technical.

Regards,

Tomeu

 --
  Bastien

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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

2009-07-28 Thread Greg Smith

Hi Guys,

I'm reluctant to dive in to a full blown process discussion but I'm
not opposed to others doing that :-)

Nonetheless, this is a recurring theme which is a barrier to developer
engagement so I'll put in my 2 cents.

A few weeks ago we exchanged some e-mails abut how to update the wiki
and get things on the roadmap (e.g.
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2009-July/016271.html).
As I got in to it, I realized that I don't have enough detail yet to
follow that process effectively.

Is the current roadmap building system working for other deployments
and/or developers?

In order to gather the data and prepare meaningful requests, I decided
to dig in to the details of a single deployment. My strategy there is
described in this e-mail:
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2009-July/016906.html

Still working on that. End goal is a Trac query w/bug IDs relevant for
GPA. Each bug  tied to a lesson plan or class activity so designs and
details can be quickly validated against the use cases. With bug query
in hand, I plan to send it repeatedly to the list until I find
developers to work on them.

Will that strategy work for others? Dan and Bastien, do you have a
link to the list of things your deployments need?

I can work with a motivated volunteer to collect all incoming ideas
but I'm not in a position to do that myself right now.

If each deployment had a prioritized and detailed list we could
aggregate those and find things which solve problems for lots of
customers at once. Then we're ready to define a roadmap.

In my experience, its 5 - 10 interactions to nail down a feature/bug
fix for a specific customer. e.g. find a problem or need, communicate
it, respond to clarifying questions, try work arounds, go back to user
and validate source of the issue, gather design ideas, validate design
ideas, check them against original problem, etc.

Its also at least 6 months from feature/bug submission to deployed
software in the school. So its not easy! Hang in there and keep laser
focused on a few top items until you get them.

The key is to have all the gritty detail ready in advance so you can
move a feature/bug through the steps quickly once you get developer
attention.

I'm working on the GPA list (see:
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Gardner_Pilot_Academy). If others have
lists of requirements, send them out. Then perhaps Simon, Tomeu et al
can link to them from some Roadmap creation page. We may be further
along than we think.

HTHs. Comments, corrections and additions welcome.

Thanks,

Greg S

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 20:58:04 +0800
From: Bastien bastiengue...@googlemail.com
Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development
To: Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org
Cc: sugar-devel sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
Message-ID: 87zlap0xsz@bzg.ath.cx
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org writes:

 About having a person at every deployment, some months ago I started
 creating this list of contacts:

 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Team/Places

Thanks for the reminder.  My idea was more to have only *one* person in
Sugar responsible to get/filter/dispatch deployments feedback - just as
Greg was answering requests from various horizons (cc'ing Greg to this
thread.)

 Maybe this time we'll have more luck having people listed there?

Yes - but I'm afraid having the role I mention above is the only way to
activate the list in Deployment_Team/Places

 Btw, why is this thread in sugar-devel instead of in IAEP?

(Well, I'm just a bit cautious about threads jumps...)

--
 Bastien
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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 17:51, Greg Smithgregsmit...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Guys,

 I'm reluctant to dive in to a full blown process discussion but I'm
 not opposed to others doing that :-)

 Nonetheless, this is a recurring theme which is a barrier to developer
 engagement so I'll put in my 2 cents.

 A few weeks ago we exchanged some e-mails abut how to update the wiki
 and get things on the roadmap (e.g.
 http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2009-July/016271.html).
 As I got in to it, I realized that I don't have enough detail yet to
 follow that process effectively.

 Is the current roadmap building system working for other deployments
 and/or developers?

Works for me, but may be a bit early to tell. What I know for sure is
that we don't have it nailed down yet and we'll need to improve it
with as time passes.

 In order to gather the data and prepare meaningful requests, I decided
 to dig in to the details of a single deployment. My strategy there is
 described in this e-mail:
 http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2009-July/016906.html

 Still working on that. End goal is a Trac query w/bug IDs relevant for
 GPA. Each bug  tied to a lesson plan or class activity so designs and
 details can be quickly validated against the use cases. With bug query
 in hand, I plan to send it repeatedly to the list until I find
 developers to work on them.

 Will that strategy work for others? Dan and Bastien, do you have a
 link to the list of things your deployments need?

Sounds like a good strategy, from my POV.

 I can work with a motivated volunteer to collect all incoming ideas
 but I'm not in a position to do that myself right now.

 If each deployment had a prioritized and detailed list we could
 aggregate those and find things which solve problems for lots of
 customers at once. Then we're ready to define a roadmap.

 In my experience, its 5 - 10 interactions to nail down a feature/bug
 fix for a specific customer. e.g. find a problem or need, communicate
 it, respond to clarifying questions, try work arounds, go back to user
 and validate source of the issue, gather design ideas, validate design
 ideas, check them against original problem, etc.

 Its also at least 6 months from feature/bug submission to deployed
 software in the school. So its not easy! Hang in there and keep laser
 focused on a few top items until you get them.

 The key is to have all the gritty detail ready in advance so you can
 move a feature/bug through the steps quickly once you get developer
 attention.

 I'm working on the GPA list (see:
 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Gardner_Pilot_Academy). If others have
 lists of requirements, send them out. Then perhaps Simon, Tomeu et al
 can link to them from some Roadmap creation page. We may be further
 along than we think.

What about entering Feature pages? Or is that intended to happen only
once we have a technical plan for the feature?

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Policy

Thanks,

Tomeu

 HTHs. Comments, corrections and additions welcome.

 Thanks,

 Greg S

 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 20:58:04 +0800
 From: Bastien bastiengue...@googlemail.com
 Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development
 To: Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org
 Cc: sugar-devel sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
 Message-ID: 87zlap0xsz@bzg.ath.cx
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org writes:

 About having a person at every deployment, some months ago I started
 creating this list of contacts:

 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Team/Places

 Thanks for the reminder.  My idea was more to have only *one* person in
 Sugar responsible to get/filter/dispatch deployments feedback - just as
 Greg was answering requests from various horizons (cc'ing Greg to this
 thread.)

 Maybe this time we'll have more luck having people listed there?

 Yes - but I'm afraid having the role I mention above is the only way to
 activate the list in Deployment_Team/Places

 Btw, why is this thread in sugar-devel instead of in IAEP?

 (Well, I'm just a bit cautious about threads jumps...)

 --
  Bastien
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Re: [Sugar-devel] community influence on development