Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 2:27 AM, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > Yeah > How we detect what keyboard is present? Wouldn't you be better of using xkeys or what ever gtk uses and they you don't need to what keyboard is present, it would just work. Peter > On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Walter Bender > wrote: >> >> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Paul Fox wrote: >> > i'd like to bring this discussion to a conclusion. >> > >> > i'm starting to be a fan of this proposal of bert's -- it's very >> > simple, keeps the keys the same in sugar and in gnome, and on >> > membrane and non-membrane keyboards, it's backwards compatible >> > with existing use on XO-1, and the volume/ brightness keys remain >> > easily discoverable. it does require that sugar respond to F5 >> > and F6 for "journal" and "frame" -- i still don't have a feeling >> > for whether that's an issue or not, and if so, how big. >> >> The only activity I am aware of that uses F5 and F6 on the XO is the >> most recent version of Paint that Gonzolo is working on. Presumably >> these keymaps could be grabbed by Paint when running on an OLPC XO 1.0 >> or when we detect the membrane keyboard. Otherwise, we could keep the >> mapping as Bert suggests. >> >> > any yeas or nays? >> >> Yeah. >> > >> > paul >> > >> > >> > bert wrote: >> > > >> > > On 17.07.2010, at 09:31, Bernie Innocenti wrote: >> > > >> > > > El Thu, 15-07-2010 a las 23:08 -0400, Paul Fox escribió: >> > > >> i think everyone (except >> > > >> apple, i'm learning tonight) agrees this is the correct setup >> > > >> when not in sugar. >> > > > >> > > > Lenovo also seems to be switching to the Apple layout: >> > > > >> > > > >> > http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/01/thinkpadedgepost16.jpg >> > > > >> > > >> > http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/gallery/lenovo-thinkpad-edge-13-review/lenov >> > > o-thinkpad-edge-13-keyboard.jpg >> > > > >> > > > Almost all the historic F-key mappings have an alternative CTRL+key >> > or >> > > > ALT+key mapping in modern HIGs. Keys to control laptop volume and >> > > > brightness are accessed much more frequently, so it's foreseeable >> > that >> > > > over time they will supplant the F-keys in PC keyboards. >> > > >> > > +1 >> > > >> > > IMHO pressing "fn" to get "f1" to "f10" makes sense. In my daily >> > routine I much >> > > more often change volume or brightness than use the numbered F keys. >> > > >> > > Looking at this again >> > > >> > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Spanish_Non-membrane_Keyboard >> > > >> > > I propose: >> > > >> > > f1-f8 produce F key codes both with and without the fn key >> > > f9-f12 produce F codes only with fn, and volume/brightness >> > events >> > > without fn. >> > > >> > > So holding down fn always gets you the F key codes, you can change >> > > volume/brightness without modifier, and as a bonus you can use the >> > first eight >> > > F keys even without the fn key. >> > > >> > > This mapping should work both in Sugar and outside. >> > > >> > > - Bert - >> > > >> > > >> > > ___ >> > > Devel mailing list >> > > de...@lists.laptop.org >> > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel >> > >> > =- >> > paul fox, p...@laptop.org >> > >> > ___ >> > Sugar-devel mailing list >> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Walter Bender >> Sugar Labs >> http://www.sugarlabs.org >> ___ >> Sugar-devel mailing list >> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > > -- > Gonzalo Odiard > Responsable de Desarrollo > Sistemas Australes > > > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
james wrote: > On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 01:04:06AM -0400, Raul Gutierrez Segales wrote: > > On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 21:33 -0400, Walter Bender wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Gonzalo Odiard > > > wrote: > > > > Yeah > > > > How we detect what keyboard is present? > > > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Firmware_q3a44 mentions: > > > > 1889: OLPC keyboard driver, avoid confusing EC with enable scan command > > That's unrelated, I think. yes. the keyboards are indistinguishable electrically, without user input. > > > I wonder if somehow the type of detected keyboard is discoverable > > via /ofw. > > The manufacturing data may help to narrow the possibilities, but they > would have to be maintained correctly in conjunction with any keyboard > changes by deployment repair. > > Perhaps someone else knows more. right. when the laptops are build, the included keyboard is identified with a specific tag. specifically, the KM tag is "olpcm" for the mechanical keyboard, and "olpc" for the membrane keyboards. however, someday it will be possible to swap between membrane and mechanical keyboards (it isn't yet), and that will raise a new identification issue. i suspect we'll end up with a user utility of some sort to correctly identify the keyboard to the system. the upper right-hand key, for instance, is unique on each, so asking the user to hit that will be sufficient. the utility will then rewrite the mfg tag (doubtful) or modify the filesystem (more likely) to record the identification. further background: the KM mfg tag is used by /etc/init.d/olpc-configure to set up the XKB_MODEL variable assignment in /etc/sysconfig/keyboard (this happens just once per software install). when the user session starts, olpc-session sources /etc/sysconfig/keyboard, and passes the XKB_MODEL value to setxkbmap. setxkbmap can in turn be queried to find out what keyboard model (and layout and variant) is in use. i suspect that this is the mechanism that applications should use to detect which keyboard they have, because it's xkb that has to have the right answer in order for all the characters to work correctly. i don't know if there's a programming API lurking under the covers in "setxkbmap -print", or not. paul =- paul fox, p...@laptop.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 01:04:06AM -0400, Raul Gutierrez Segales wrote: > On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 21:33 -0400, Walter Bender wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > > > Yeah > > > How we detect what keyboard is present? > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Firmware_q3a44 mentions: > > 1889: OLPC keyboard driver, avoid confusing EC with enable scan command That's unrelated, I think. > I wonder if somehow the type of detected keyboard is discoverable > via /ofw. The manufacturing data may help to narrow the possibilities, but they would have to be maintained correctly in conjunction with any keyboard changes by deployment repair. Perhaps someone else knows more. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
On Mon, 2010-07-19 at 21:33 -0400, Walter Bender wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
> > Yeah
> > How we detect what keyboard is present?
>
> You can possible to detect the XO 1, which guarantees a membrane
> keyboard. And a non-OLPC machine, which guarantees a non-membrane
> keyboard. It is the XO 1.5 that is at issue. I'll look into it.
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Firmware_q3a44 mentions:
1889: OLPC keyboard driver, avoid confusing EC with enable scan command
I wonder if somehow the type of detected keyboard is discoverable
via /ofw.
Cheers,
Raúl
>
> -walter
>
> def _get_hardware():
> """ Determine whether we are using XO 1.0, 1.5, or "unknown" hardware """
> bus = dbus.SystemBus()
>
> comp_obj = bus.get_object('org.freedesktop.Hal',
> '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer')
> dev = dbus.Interface(comp_obj, 'org.freedesktop.Hal.Device')
> if dev.PropertyExists('system.hardware.vendor') and \
> dev.PropertyExists('system.hardware.version'):
> if dev.GetProperty('system.hardware.vendor') == 'OLPC':
> if dev.GetProperty('system.hardware.version') == '1.5':
> return XO15
> else:
> return XO1
> else:
> return UNKNOWN
> elif path.exists('/etc/olpc-release') or \
> path.exists('/sys/power/olpc-pm'):
> return XO1
> else:
> return UNKNOWN
>
> > Gonzalo
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Walter Bender
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Paul Fox wrote:
> >> > i'd like to bring this discussion to a conclusion.
> >> >
> >> > i'm starting to be a fan of this proposal of bert's -- it's very
> >> > simple, keeps the keys the same in sugar and in gnome, and on
> >> > membrane and non-membrane keyboards, it's backwards compatible
> >> > with existing use on XO-1, and the volume/ brightness keys remain
> >> > easily discoverable. it does require that sugar respond to F5
> >> > and F6 for "journal" and "frame" -- i still don't have a feeling
> >> > for whether that's an issue or not, and if so, how big.
> >>
> >> The only activity I am aware of that uses F5 and F6 on the XO is the
> >> most recent version of Paint that Gonzolo is working on. Presumably
> >> these keymaps could be grabbed by Paint when running on an OLPC XO 1.0
> >> or when we detect the membrane keyboard. Otherwise, we could keep the
> >> mapping as Bert suggests.
> >>
> >> > any yeas or nays?
> >>
> >> Yeah.
> >> >
> >> > paul
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > bert wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > On 17.07.2010, at 09:31, Bernie Innocenti wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > El Thu, 15-07-2010 a las 23:08 -0400, Paul Fox escribió:
> >> > > >> i think everyone (except
> >> > > >> apple, i'm learning tonight) agrees this is the correct setup
> >> > > >> when not in sugar.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Lenovo also seems to be switching to the Apple layout:
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/01/thinkpadedgepost16.jpg
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/gallery/lenovo-thinkpad-edge-13-review/lenov
> >> > > o-thinkpad-edge-13-keyboard.jpg
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Almost all the historic F-key mappings have an alternative CTRL+key
> >> > or
> >> > > > ALT+key mapping in modern HIGs. Keys to control laptop volume and
> >> > > > brightness are accessed much more frequently, so it's foreseeable
> >> > that
> >> > > > over time they will supplant the F-keys in PC keyboards.
> >> > >
> >> > > +1
> >> > >
> >> > > IMHO pressing "fn" to get "f1" to "f10" makes sense. In my daily
> >> > routine I much
> >> > > more often change volume or brightness than use the numbered F keys.
> >> > >
> >> > > Looking at this again
> >> > >
> >> > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Spanish_Non-membrane_Keyboard
> >> > >
> >> > > I propose:
> >> > >
> >> > > f1-f8 produce F key codes both with and without the fn key
> >> > > f9-f12 produce F codes only with fn, and volume/brightness
> >> > events
> >> > > without fn.
> >> > >
> >> > > So holding down fn always gets you the F key codes, you can change
> >> > > volume/brightness without modifier, and as a bonus you can use the
> >> > first eight
> >> > > F keys even without the fn key.
> >> > >
> >> > > This mapping should work both in Sugar and outside.
> >> > >
> >> > > - Bert -
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ___
> >> > > Devel mailing list
> >> > > de...@lists.laptop.org
> >> > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
> >> >
> >> > =-
> >> > paul fox, p...@laptop.org
> >> >
> >> > ___
> >> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> >> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Walter Bender
> >> Sugar Labs
> >> http://www
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
> Yeah
> How we detect what keyboard is present?
You can possible to detect the XO 1, which guarantees a membrane
keyboard. And a non-OLPC machine, which guarantees a non-membrane
keyboard. It is the XO 1.5 that is at issue. I'll look into it.
-walter
def _get_hardware():
""" Determine whether we are using XO 1.0, 1.5, or "unknown" hardware """
bus = dbus.SystemBus()
comp_obj = bus.get_object('org.freedesktop.Hal',
'/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer')
dev = dbus.Interface(comp_obj, 'org.freedesktop.Hal.Device')
if dev.PropertyExists('system.hardware.vendor') and \
dev.PropertyExists('system.hardware.version'):
if dev.GetProperty('system.hardware.vendor') == 'OLPC':
if dev.GetProperty('system.hardware.version') == '1.5':
return XO15
else:
return XO1
else:
return UNKNOWN
elif path.exists('/etc/olpc-release') or \
path.exists('/sys/power/olpc-pm'):
return XO1
else:
return UNKNOWN
> Gonzalo
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Walter Bender
> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Paul Fox wrote:
>> > i'd like to bring this discussion to a conclusion.
>> >
>> > i'm starting to be a fan of this proposal of bert's -- it's very
>> > simple, keeps the keys the same in sugar and in gnome, and on
>> > membrane and non-membrane keyboards, it's backwards compatible
>> > with existing use on XO-1, and the volume/ brightness keys remain
>> > easily discoverable. it does require that sugar respond to F5
>> > and F6 for "journal" and "frame" -- i still don't have a feeling
>> > for whether that's an issue or not, and if so, how big.
>>
>> The only activity I am aware of that uses F5 and F6 on the XO is the
>> most recent version of Paint that Gonzolo is working on. Presumably
>> these keymaps could be grabbed by Paint when running on an OLPC XO 1.0
>> or when we detect the membrane keyboard. Otherwise, we could keep the
>> mapping as Bert suggests.
>>
>> > any yeas or nays?
>>
>> Yeah.
>> >
>> > paul
>> >
>> >
>> > bert wrote:
>> > >
>> > > On 17.07.2010, at 09:31, Bernie Innocenti wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > El Thu, 15-07-2010 a las 23:08 -0400, Paul Fox escribió:
>> > > >> i think everyone (except
>> > > >> apple, i'm learning tonight) agrees this is the correct setup
>> > > >> when not in sugar.
>> > > >
>> > > > Lenovo also seems to be switching to the Apple layout:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/01/thinkpadedgepost16.jpg
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/gallery/lenovo-thinkpad-edge-13-review/lenov
>> > > o-thinkpad-edge-13-keyboard.jpg
>> > > >
>> > > > Almost all the historic F-key mappings have an alternative CTRL+key
>> > or
>> > > > ALT+key mapping in modern HIGs. Keys to control laptop volume and
>> > > > brightness are accessed much more frequently, so it's foreseeable
>> > that
>> > > > over time they will supplant the F-keys in PC keyboards.
>> > >
>> > > +1
>> > >
>> > > IMHO pressing "fn" to get "f1" to "f10" makes sense. In my daily
>> > routine I much
>> > > more often change volume or brightness than use the numbered F keys.
>> > >
>> > > Looking at this again
>> > >
>> > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Spanish_Non-membrane_Keyboard
>> > >
>> > > I propose:
>> > >
>> > > f1-f8 produce F key codes both with and without the fn key
>> > > f9-f12 produce F codes only with fn, and volume/brightness
>> > events
>> > > without fn.
>> > >
>> > > So holding down fn always gets you the F key codes, you can change
>> > > volume/brightness without modifier, and as a bonus you can use the
>> > first eight
>> > > F keys even without the fn key.
>> > >
>> > > This mapping should work both in Sugar and outside.
>> > >
>> > > - Bert -
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ___
>> > > Devel mailing list
>> > > de...@lists.laptop.org
>> > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>> >
>> > =-
>> > paul fox, p...@laptop.org
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Sugar-devel mailing list
>> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Walter Bender
>> Sugar Labs
>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>> ___
>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
>
>
> --
> Gonzalo Odiard
> Responsable de Desarrollo
> Sistemas Australes
>
>
--
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
___
Sugar-devel mailing list
Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
Yeah How we detect what keyboard is present? Gonzalo On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Walter Bender wrote: > On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Paul Fox wrote: > > i'd like to bring this discussion to a conclusion. > > > > i'm starting to be a fan of this proposal of bert's -- it's very > > simple, keeps the keys the same in sugar and in gnome, and on > > membrane and non-membrane keyboards, it's backwards compatible > > with existing use on XO-1, and the volume/ brightness keys remain > > easily discoverable. it does require that sugar respond to F5 > > and F6 for "journal" and "frame" -- i still don't have a feeling > > for whether that's an issue or not, and if so, how big. > > The only activity I am aware of that uses F5 and F6 on the XO is the > most recent version of Paint that Gonzolo is working on. Presumably > these keymaps could be grabbed by Paint when running on an OLPC XO 1.0 > or when we detect the membrane keyboard. Otherwise, we could keep the > mapping as Bert suggests. > > > any yeas or nays? > > Yeah. > > > > paul > > > > > > bert wrote: > > > > > > On 17.07.2010, at 09:31, Bernie Innocenti wrote: > > > > > > > El Thu, 15-07-2010 a las 23:08 -0400, Paul Fox escribió: > > > >> i think everyone (except > > > >> apple, i'm learning tonight) agrees this is the correct setup > > > >> when not in sugar. > > > > > > > > Lenovo also seems to be switching to the Apple layout: > > > > > > > > > http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/01/thinkpadedgepost16.jpg > > > > > > > > http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/gallery/lenovo-thinkpad-edge-13-review/lenov > > > o-thinkpad-edge-13-keyboard.jpg > > > > > > > > Almost all the historic F-key mappings have an alternative CTRL+key > or > > > > ALT+key mapping in modern HIGs. Keys to control laptop volume and > > > > brightness are accessed much more frequently, so it's foreseeable > that > > > > over time they will supplant the F-keys in PC keyboards. > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > IMHO pressing "fn" to get "f1" to "f10" makes sense. In my daily > routine I much > > > more often change volume or brightness than use the numbered F keys. > > > > > > Looking at this again > > > > > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Spanish_Non-membrane_Keyboard > > > > > > I propose: > > > > > > f1-f8 produce F key codes both with and without the fn key > > > f9-f12 produce F codes only with fn, and volume/brightness events > > > without fn. > > > > > > So holding down fn always gets you the F key codes, you can change > > > volume/brightness without modifier, and as a bonus you can use the > first eight > > > F keys even without the fn key. > > > > > > This mapping should work both in Sugar and outside. > > > > > > - Bert - > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > Devel mailing list > > > de...@lists.laptop.org > > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > > > > =- > > paul fox, p...@laptop.org > > > > ___ > > Sugar-devel mailing list > > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > > > > > > -- > Walter Bender > Sugar Labs > http://www.sugarlabs.org > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > -- Gonzalo Odiard Responsable de Desarrollo Sistemas Australes ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Paul Fox wrote: > i'd like to bring this discussion to a conclusion. > > i'm starting to be a fan of this proposal of bert's -- it's very > simple, keeps the keys the same in sugar and in gnome, and on > membrane and non-membrane keyboards, it's backwards compatible > with existing use on XO-1, and the volume/ brightness keys remain > easily discoverable. it does require that sugar respond to F5 > and F6 for "journal" and "frame" -- i still don't have a feeling > for whether that's an issue or not, and if so, how big. The only activity I am aware of that uses F5 and F6 on the XO is the most recent version of Paint that Gonzolo is working on. Presumably these keymaps could be grabbed by Paint when running on an OLPC XO 1.0 or when we detect the membrane keyboard. Otherwise, we could keep the mapping as Bert suggests. > any yeas or nays? Yeah. > > paul > > > bert wrote: > > > > On 17.07.2010, at 09:31, Bernie Innocenti wrote: > > > > > El Thu, 15-07-2010 a las 23:08 -0400, Paul Fox escribió: > > >> i think everyone (except > > >> apple, i'm learning tonight) agrees this is the correct setup > > >> when not in sugar. > > > > > > Lenovo also seems to be switching to the Apple layout: > > > > > > > http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/01/thinkpadedgepost16.jpg > > > > > > http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/gallery/lenovo-thinkpad-edge-13-review/lenov > > o-thinkpad-edge-13-keyboard.jpg > > > > > > Almost all the historic F-key mappings have an alternative CTRL+key or > > > ALT+key mapping in modern HIGs. Keys to control laptop volume and > > > brightness are accessed much more frequently, so it's foreseeable that > > > over time they will supplant the F-keys in PC keyboards. > > > > +1 > > > > IMHO pressing "fn" to get "f1" to "f10" makes sense. In my daily routine I > much > > more often change volume or brightness than use the numbered F keys. > > > > Looking at this again > > > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Spanish_Non-membrane_Keyboard > > > > I propose: > > > > f1-f8 produce F key codes both with and without the fn key > > f9-f12 produce F codes only with fn, and volume/brightness events > > without fn. > > > > So holding down fn always gets you the F key codes, you can change > > volume/brightness without modifier, and as a bonus you can use the first > eight > > F keys even without the fn key. > > > > This mapping should work both in Sugar and outside. > > > > - Bert - > > > > > > ___ > > Devel mailing list > > de...@lists.laptop.org > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel > > =- > paul fox, p...@laptop.org > > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
i'd like to bring this discussion to a conclusion. i'm starting to be a fan of this proposal of bert's -- it's very simple, keeps the keys the same in sugar and in gnome, and on membrane and non-membrane keyboards, it's backwards compatible with existing use on XO-1, and the volume/ brightness keys remain easily discoverable. it does require that sugar respond to F5 and F6 for "journal" and "frame" -- i still don't have a feeling for whether that's an issue or not, and if so, how big. any yeas or nays? paul bert wrote: > > On 17.07.2010, at 09:31, Bernie Innocenti wrote: > > > El Thu, 15-07-2010 a las 23:08 -0400, Paul Fox escribió: > >> i think everyone (except > >> apple, i'm learning tonight) agrees this is the correct setup > >> when not in sugar. > > > > Lenovo also seems to be switching to the Apple layout: > > > > http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/01/thinkpadedgepost16.jpg > > > http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/gallery/lenovo-thinkpad-edge-13-review/lenov > o-thinkpad-edge-13-keyboard.jpg > > > > Almost all the historic F-key mappings have an alternative CTRL+key or > > ALT+key mapping in modern HIGs. Keys to control laptop volume and > > brightness are accessed much more frequently, so it's foreseeable that > > over time they will supplant the F-keys in PC keyboards. > > +1 > > IMHO pressing "fn" to get "f1" to "f10" makes sense. In my daily routine I > much > more often change volume or brightness than use the numbered F keys. > > Looking at this again > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Spanish_Non-membrane_Keyboard > > I propose: > > f1-f8 produce F key codes both with and without the fn key > f9-f12 produce F codes only with fn, and volume/brightness events > without fn. > > So holding down fn always gets you the F key codes, you can change > volume/brightness without modifier, and as a bonus you can use the first > eight > F keys even without the fn key. > > This mapping should work both in Sugar and outside. > > - Bert - > > > ___ > Devel mailing list > de...@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel =- paul fox, p...@laptop.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
On 17.07.2010, at 09:31, Bernie Innocenti wrote: > El Thu, 15-07-2010 a las 23:08 -0400, Paul Fox escribió: >> i think everyone (except >> apple, i'm learning tonight) agrees this is the correct setup >> when not in sugar. > > Lenovo also seems to be switching to the Apple layout: > > http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/01/thinkpadedgepost16.jpg > http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/gallery/lenovo-thinkpad-edge-13-review/lenovo-thinkpad-edge-13-keyboard.jpg > > Almost all the historic F-key mappings have an alternative CTRL+key or > ALT+key mapping in modern HIGs. Keys to control laptop volume and > brightness are accessed much more frequently, so it's foreseeable that > over time they will supplant the F-keys in PC keyboards. +1 IMHO pressing "fn" to get "f1" to "f10" makes sense. In my daily routine I much more often change volume or brightness than use the numbered F keys. Looking at this again http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Spanish_Non-membrane_Keyboard I propose: f1-f8 produce F key codes both with and without the fn key f9-f12 produce F codes only with fn, and volume/brightness events without fn. So holding down fn always gets you the F key codes, you can change volume/brightness without modifier, and as a bonus you can use the first eight F keys even without the fn key. This mapping should work both in Sugar and outside. - Bert - ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
El Thu, 15-07-2010 a las 23:08 -0400, Paul Fox escribió: > i think everyone (except > apple, i'm learning tonight) agrees this is the correct setup > when not in sugar. Lenovo also seems to be switching to the Apple layout: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/01/thinkpadedgepost16.jpg http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/gallery/lenovo-thinkpad-edge-13-review/lenovo-thinkpad-edge-13-keyboard.jpg Almost all the historic F-key mappings have an alternative CTRL+key or ALT+key mapping in modern HIGs. Keys to control laptop volume and brightness are accessed much more frequently, so it's foreseeable that over time they will supplant the F-keys in PC keyboards. -- // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/ \X/ Sugar Labs - http://sugarlabs.org/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
daniel wrote: > On 15 July 2010 18:26, Walter Bender wrote: > > Presumably there is a way to detect which keyboard is installed in the > > machine? While I love Gonzalo's use of the F5-F8 keys, the need for > > Frame and Journal keys on the non-membrane keyboards is more important > > in my experience. > > Yes, let's limit this discussion to the non-membrane keyboard. Not > planning any changes in the membrane keyboard (without separate > discussion). > Walter, what's your opinion? i guess i don't understand why the question is "either/or". as i've coded it (so color me biased :-), when running gnome (or anything "not sugar"), all of the function keys are available to applications. only four of the keys with special labels on them have any meaning in gnome (i.e., the four brightness/volume keys) and those are available with the Fn key. i think everyone (except apple, i'm learning tonight) agrees this is the correct setup when not in sugar. when in sugar (assuming a small patch to sugar, which could presumably be made XO-dependent) all of the "specially" labeled keys are available without an Fn modifier, and as such act just as they do on the membrane keyboard. this includes the brightness/volume keys. this felt both more compatible and "discoverable" to me, and to cjb, but this laptop is for an older audience, so maybe that doesn't matter. in addition, the brightness and volume keys are available with Fn. for more uniformity, the rest of the special-labeled F1-F6 could be made available in sugar with Fn as well, with a bit more udev keybinding. as far as i understood, sugar doesn't make much use of the function keys above F1-F4, so i didn't think there was a need to keep them all clear. am i wrong about this? my limited sugar use has been on XO laptops -- i don't have much experience with SoaS. paul =- paul fox, p...@laptop.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
On 15 July 2010 18:26, Walter Bender wrote: > Presumably there is a way to detect which keyboard is installed in the > machine? While I love Gonzalo's use of the F5-F8 keys, the need for > Frame and Journal keys on the non-membrane keyboards is more important > in my experience. Yes, let's limit this discussion to the non-membrane keyboard. Not planning any changes in the membrane keyboard (without separate discussion). Walter, what's your opinion? Daniel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
> This is a regression. It used to (2007) return keycodes. > > May be. Where is the keyboard definition? Gonzalo ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > May be it's too late, but i was modifying Paint to use the slider keys > (F5,F6,F7,F8) to change the size of the brush. I know there aren't other > uses of slider in Sugar, but I think it's useful and expressive to have keys > to enlarge or reduce the brush, the fonts,etc. > If we need F5 and F6 to the journal and the frame we can use F7 and F8 to > change sizes but will be different in the actual keyboards and the HS > keyboard. > You will have other problem with the actual keyboard definition.Pressing fn > with any slider key gives no event at all. This is a regression. It used to (2007) return keycodes. -walter > > Gonzalo > > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Daniel Drake wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> On the XO HS (highschool edition, the one with a more "normal" >> keyboard) we're facing some questions about how the F keys should >> function, under sugar and GNOME. >> >> The technicalities are in http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/10213 and here >> is a picture of the keyboard: >> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Spanish_Non-membrane_Keyboard >> >> Under non-sugar environments (e.g. GNOME), myself and Paul are in >> agreement that in order to change brightness and volume, you should >> press e.g. Fn+F9 (to decrease brightness). >> >> This matches behaviour of "normal" laptops, including the Dell that >> I'm writing on. Linux already has mechanisms (once through hal, now >> through udev) so that when I press Fn+F8 on my Dell, X receives the >> "volume down" key press (instead of the Fn+F8 key press), matching >> what is printed on the keyboard. >> >> >> We want all of the unmodified F-keys to send the normal F-key events >> (we don't want to map them especially). This is for maximum >> compatibility with non-sugar environments. >> >> >> For Sugar we have an open question. >> The F1-F4 keys have the zoom levels printed on them, and pressing the >> keys unmodified will cause the zoom levels to change (because this is >> how Sugar is already coded, it responds to the literal F1 keypress). >> >> The other keys are: >> - F5: search/journal >> - F6: frame >> - F9: brightness down >> - F10: brightness up >> - F11: volume down >> - F12: volume up >> >> For these other keys, when using Sugar, should the user have to press >> the Fn modifier while pressing the key in order to reach the named >> function? >> >> The advantage of not having to press Fn (i.e. the keys would work >> unmodified) is that sugar works the way it always has on XO (we retain >> consistency with XO-1). >> As for the other option, the advantage of requiring Fn is that we gain >> consistency between Sugar and GNOME, and between the XO HS and >> "normal" laptops (where Fn *is* necessary to reach those alternate >> functions). (but we do end up with some confusion with the zoom level >> keys,which will continue to work unmodified) >> >> If we decide to make the keys available unmodified in Sugar we would >> have to change sugar (worldwide, not interested in downstream forked >> patches) so that F5 on any system opens the journal, F6 on any system >> opens the frame, etc. How would people feel about that? >> >> cheers, >> Daniel >> ___ >> Sugar-devel mailing list >> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > May be it's too late, but i was modifying Paint to use the slider keys > (F5,F6,F7,F8) to change the size of the brush. I know there aren't other > uses of slider in Sugar, but I think it's useful and expressive to have keys > to enlarge or reduce the brush, the fonts,etc. > If we need F5 and F6 to the journal and the frame we can use F7 and F8 to > change sizes but will be different in the actual keyboards and the HS > keyboard. > You will have other problem with the actual keyboard definition.Pressing fn > with any slider key gives no event at all. Presumably there is a way to detect which keyboard is installed in the machine? While I love Gonzalo's use of the F5-F8 keys, the need for Frame and Journal keys on the non-membrane keyboards is more important in my experience. regards. -walter > Gonzalo > > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Daniel Drake wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> On the XO HS (highschool edition, the one with a more "normal" >> keyboard) we're facing some questions about how the F keys should >> function, under sugar and GNOME. >> >> The technicalities are in http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/10213 and here >> is a picture of the keyboard: >> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Spanish_Non-membrane_Keyboard >> >> Under non-sugar environments (e.g. GNOME), myself and Paul are in >> agreement that in order to change brightness and volume, you should >> press e.g. Fn+F9 (to decrease brightness). >> >> This matches behaviour of "normal" laptops, including the Dell that >> I'm writing on. Linux already has mechanisms (once through hal, now >> through udev) so that when I press Fn+F8 on my Dell, X receives the >> "volume down" key press (instead of the Fn+F8 key press), matching >> what is printed on the keyboard. >> >> >> We want all of the unmodified F-keys to send the normal F-key events >> (we don't want to map them especially). This is for maximum >> compatibility with non-sugar environments. >> >> >> For Sugar we have an open question. >> The F1-F4 keys have the zoom levels printed on them, and pressing the >> keys unmodified will cause the zoom levels to change (because this is >> how Sugar is already coded, it responds to the literal F1 keypress). >> >> The other keys are: >> - F5: search/journal >> - F6: frame >> - F9: brightness down >> - F10: brightness up >> - F11: volume down >> - F12: volume up >> >> For these other keys, when using Sugar, should the user have to press >> the Fn modifier while pressing the key in order to reach the named >> function? >> >> The advantage of not having to press Fn (i.e. the keys would work >> unmodified) is that sugar works the way it always has on XO (we retain >> consistency with XO-1). >> As for the other option, the advantage of requiring Fn is that we gain >> consistency between Sugar and GNOME, and between the XO HS and >> "normal" laptops (where Fn *is* necessary to reach those alternate >> functions). (but we do end up with some confusion with the zoom level >> keys,which will continue to work unmodified) >> >> If we decide to make the keys available unmodified in Sugar we would >> have to change sugar (worldwide, not interested in downstream forked >> patches) so that F5 on any system opens the journal, F6 on any system >> opens the frame, etc. How would people feel about that? >> >> cheers, >> Daniel >> ___ >> Sugar-devel mailing list >> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
May be it's too late, but i was modifying Paint to use the slider keys (F5,F6,F7,F8) to change the size of the brush. I know there aren't other uses of slider in Sugar, but I think it's useful and expressive to have keys to enlarge or reduce the brush, the fonts,etc. If we need F5 and F6 to the journal and the frame we can use F7 and F8 to change sizes but will be different in the actual keyboards and the HS keyboard. You will have other problem with the actual keyboard definition.Pressing fn with any slider key gives no event at all. Gonzalo On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Daniel Drake wrote: > Hi, > > On the XO HS (highschool edition, the one with a more "normal" > keyboard) we're facing some questions about how the F keys should > function, under sugar and GNOME. > > The technicalities are in http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/10213 and here > is a picture of the keyboard: > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Spanish_Non-membrane_Keyboard > > Under non-sugar environments (e.g. GNOME), myself and Paul are in > agreement that in order to change brightness and volume, you should > press e.g. Fn+F9 (to decrease brightness). > > This matches behaviour of "normal" laptops, including the Dell that > I'm writing on. Linux already has mechanisms (once through hal, now > through udev) so that when I press Fn+F8 on my Dell, X receives the > "volume down" key press (instead of the Fn+F8 key press), matching > what is printed on the keyboard. > > > We want all of the unmodified F-keys to send the normal F-key events > (we don't want to map them especially). This is for maximum > compatibility with non-sugar environments. > > > For Sugar we have an open question. > The F1-F4 keys have the zoom levels printed on them, and pressing the > keys unmodified will cause the zoom levels to change (because this is > how Sugar is already coded, it responds to the literal F1 keypress). > > The other keys are: > - F5: search/journal > - F6: frame > - F9: brightness down > - F10: brightness up > - F11: volume down > - F12: volume up > > For these other keys, when using Sugar, should the user have to press > the Fn modifier while pressing the key in order to reach the named > function? > > The advantage of not having to press Fn (i.e. the keys would work > unmodified) is that sugar works the way it always has on XO (we retain > consistency with XO-1). > As for the other option, the advantage of requiring Fn is that we gain > consistency between Sugar and GNOME, and between the XO HS and > "normal" laptops (where Fn *is* necessary to reach those alternate > functions). (but we do end up with some confusion with the zoom level > keys,which will continue to work unmodified) > > If we decide to make the keys available unmodified in Sugar we would > have to change sugar (worldwide, not interested in downstream forked > patches) so that F5 on any system opens the journal, F6 on any system > opens the frame, etc. How would people feel about that? > > cheers, > Daniel > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
On 15 Jul 2010, at 23:59, Tim McNamara wrote: > On 16 July 2010 10:50, Daniel Drake wrote: > Under non-sugar environments (e.g. GNOME), myself and Paul are in > agreement that in order to change brightness and volume, you should > press e.g. Fn+F9 (to decrease brightness). > > This matches behaviour of "normal" laptops, including the Dell that > I'm writing on. Linux already has mechanisms (once through hal, now > through udev) so that when I press Fn+F8 on my Dell, X receives the > "volume down" key press (instead of the Fn+F8 key press), matching > what is printed on the keyboard. > > > This convention appears to be changing. My very recent HP notebook requires > th Fn button to be pushed to reach the function keys. Everything is reversed. +1 on Tim's observation, all three Apple laptops I've owned have brightness/volume/exposé/dashboard/etc mapped by default to a single key press, if you want an Fn key you need to hold the Fn button down. There is a system preference to toggle this behaviour, but the majority of Mac applications avoid the use of function keys (same as most Sugar Activities do). Regards, --Gary > While I don't have the empirical evidence to support a claim that users > prefer to have quick access to volume & brightness, I think this could be an > argument to say that whatever the path of least resistance (in terms of > developer cycles) is fine. > > Tim > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
On 16 July 2010 10:50, Daniel Drake wrote: > Under non-sugar environments (e.g. GNOME), myself and Paul are in > agreement that in order to change brightness and volume, you should > press e.g. Fn+F9 (to decrease brightness). > > This matches behaviour of "normal" laptops, including the Dell that > I'm writing on. Linux already has mechanisms (once through hal, now > through udev) so that when I press Fn+F8 on my Dell, X receives the > "volume down" key press (instead of the Fn+F8 key press), matching > what is printed on the keyboard. > > This convention appears to be changing. My very recent HP notebook requires th Fn button to be pushed to reach the function keys. Everything is reversed. While I don't have the empirical evidence to support a claim that users prefer to have quick access to volume & brightness, I think this could be an argument to say that whatever the path of least resistance (in terms of developer cycles) is fine. Tim ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
[Sugar-devel] behaviour of F-keys on XO HS
Hi, On the XO HS (highschool edition, the one with a more "normal" keyboard) we're facing some questions about how the F keys should function, under sugar and GNOME. The technicalities are in http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/10213 and here is a picture of the keyboard: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Spanish_Non-membrane_Keyboard Under non-sugar environments (e.g. GNOME), myself and Paul are in agreement that in order to change brightness and volume, you should press e.g. Fn+F9 (to decrease brightness). This matches behaviour of "normal" laptops, including the Dell that I'm writing on. Linux already has mechanisms (once through hal, now through udev) so that when I press Fn+F8 on my Dell, X receives the "volume down" key press (instead of the Fn+F8 key press), matching what is printed on the keyboard. We want all of the unmodified F-keys to send the normal F-key events (we don't want to map them especially). This is for maximum compatibility with non-sugar environments. For Sugar we have an open question. The F1-F4 keys have the zoom levels printed on them, and pressing the keys unmodified will cause the zoom levels to change (because this is how Sugar is already coded, it responds to the literal F1 keypress). The other keys are: - F5: search/journal - F6: frame - F9: brightness down - F10: brightness up - F11: volume down - F12: volume up For these other keys, when using Sugar, should the user have to press the Fn modifier while pressing the key in order to reach the named function? The advantage of not having to press Fn (i.e. the keys would work unmodified) is that sugar works the way it always has on XO (we retain consistency with XO-1). As for the other option, the advantage of requiring Fn is that we gain consistency between Sugar and GNOME, and between the XO HS and "normal" laptops (where Fn *is* necessary to reach those alternate functions). (but we do end up with some confusion with the zoom level keys,which will continue to work unmodified) If we decide to make the keys available unmodified in Sugar we would have to change sugar (worldwide, not interested in downstream forked patches) so that F5 on any system opens the journal, F6 on any system opens the frame, etc. How would people feel about that? cheers, Daniel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
