Re: [Sugar-devel] [Design] On Screen Keyboard – part of the 'get Sugar touch ready' feature set
Hi Chris, On 23 Aug 2012, at 19:45, Chris Leonard cjlhomeaddr...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: I like the most recent version well enough, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Maliit_Sugar_theme_work_13.png High praise ;) Improvements/changes? Sorry, I did not mean to damn with faint praise, it is really good work under very tight restrictions. I personally find the XO physical kb limiting, so I bought a rollable rubber USB kb :-) I am sincerely excited about the potential for an OSK in the realm of limitless i18n/L10n freed from the shackles of silkscreening. I'm a little concerned that the absence of the Home/Friends/Neighborhood/World quartet of XO specific keys will be missed, but I understand that it is tough to collapse 6 rows of XO keys into 4 rows for Maliit. Yes space is at a premium using an OSK [1], however as the OSK is only visible when a text input widget has focus, we need to make sure Neighborhood/Group/Home/Activity/Journal are accessible at all other times as well, primarily by improving touch access to the Frame (and improving Frame discovery, though unlikely for this cycle). Yes, the ergonomics of frame invocation/dismissal and switching focus from kb to other touch input needs deep thought, but I have confidence in the people smarter in UI design than I am that will be working on it. :-). I don't expect it to be tuned to re-training fossils like me, but at the agile minds and fingers of kids. I've got lots of other questions, but they are more i18n related, so I'll forego inserting them into this design thread, No, bring them up here if they are OSK related! Ok, you asked for it :-) Is there currently a mechanism for re-creating the many xkb-based layouts already designed for OLPC that never got silkscreened? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Keyboard_layouts No, those are physical layouts not designed for OSK. There about 40 existing maliit layouts that I'll update to match our OSK design modifications. And then I'd imagine we will want to closely check the OSK layouts for the languages we prioritise, and make sure they cover our needs (the existing OLPC layouts will be a useful reference). Getting the existing OLPC xkb designs recreated is going to be pretty important once the existing Maliit layouts are adapted. It's also going to be a repetitive task (see attached spreadsheet), I'm wondering if there are hackerish methods for assisting in that task (scripts, spreadsheet templates, etc.)? Even the list of OLPC xkb layouts in my spreadsheet is incomplete, for example, I know of a layout for an Inuktitut variant that Walter helped some Canadians design. Generating some local documentation on de novo Maliit keyboard design is going to pretty important as I can easily imagine getting asked a lot of questions about this that can no longer be put off with, well, first you make a silkscreen in a factory in China. . . I'd love to be able to do more for new languages than say go look at https://wiki.maliit.org/Documentation and let me know when you've figured out their process. Sugar Labs is, by it's nature, an entry point for languages under-represented in ICT and we already do a lot of stuff (like glibc locale design assistance) in support of these language communities. Language switching: So, with the language switch key you can toggle through a stack of keyboards that you've configured in the Control Panel (in advance). All by itself, that would be awesome and really enhance multilingual / multi-script input. This more-or-less implements the Language key already found on Arabic and Thai OLPC keyboards, but does so for all keyboards. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Keyboard#Special_Keys http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Arabic_Keyboard http://wiki.laptop.org/go/File:Key_arabic.jpg http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Thai_Keyboard http://wiki.laptop.org/go/File:Key_thai.jpg This also seems to be necessary, but not sufficient, for the utopian ideal of toggling through UI languages / glibc locales on-the-fly (without going to Control Panel and rebooting). How far away is such a promised land once we have keyboard switching? FWIW, I've added the output to the discussion page from Maliit listing the language files in a little more detail. I'll put up screenshots of the layouts once I'm a little further along with the style/layout changes (I need to do this as part of my layout change testing anyway): http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User_talk:Garycmartin/Maliit Regards, --Gary cjl OLPC_kbs.ods ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [Design] On Screen Keyboard – part of the 'get Sugar touch ready' feature set
On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: FWIW, I've added the output to the discussion page from Maliit listing the language files in a little more detail. I'll put up screenshots of the layouts once I'm a little further along with the style/layout changes (I need to do this as part of my layout change testing anyway): http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User_talk:Garycmartin/Maliit Thanks Gary. A good start. As things stabilize I'd love to work with folks to document the variants in more detail on the wiki (including links to the XML files) in a manner similar to the way the OLPC xkb designs are documented on w.l.o http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Category:Keyboard_layouts There is huge i18n/L10n potential and I can imagine a lot of interest in developing additional keyboard XML files to capture scripts that are not on Maliit's radar screen yet. cjl ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [Design] On Screen Keyboard – part of the 'get Sugar touch ready' feature set
On 26 Aug 2012, at 18:02, Chris Leonard cjlhomeaddr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: FWIW, I've added the output to the discussion page from Maliit listing the language files in a little more detail. I'll put up screenshots of the layouts once I'm a little further along with the style/layout changes (I need to do this as part of my layout change testing anyway): http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User_talk:Garycmartin/Maliit Thanks Gary. A good start. As things stabilize I'd love to work with folks to document the variants in more detail on the wiki (including links to the XML files) in a manner similar to the way the OLPC xkb designs are documented on w.l.o http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Category:Keyboard_layouts There is huge i18n/L10n potential and I can imagine a lot of interest in developing additional keyboard XML files to capture scripts that are not on Maliit's radar screen yet. One thing to keep in mind is that the Maliit keyboard layouts _are_ the language files, so if we make even to most trivial of changes for our desired keyboard layout (move a button or add a button etc) then any new language layouts we may later add will be of minimal use to Maliit upstream, unfortunately. Would be nice if the process could go both ways, but unlikely in the short term at least. Regards, --Gary cjl ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [Design] On Screen Keyboard – part of the 'get Sugar touch ready' feature set
Hi Chris, On 23 Aug 2012, at 05:56, Chris Leonard cjlhomeaddr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:09 PM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: The key layout is a more complicated affair as it requires modification of XML files for each language layout [1], so I'd rather lock down an agreed layout before I start trying to apply them to 40+ different languages – and yes I plan to script the edits as far as I can ;) FWIW, looks like this will be a patch set we need to apply to out builds as although maliit supports custom styles (olpc-xo is the one they added for us), their layouts are shared between all styles, so they would be unlikely to accept patches from us wanting to modify them all for Sugar's needs. [1] https://gitorious.org/maliit/maliit-plugins/trees/master/maliit-keyboard/data/languages I like the most recent version well enough, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Maliit_Sugar_theme_work_13.png High praise ;) Improvements/changes? I'm a little concerned that the absence of the Home/Friends/Neighborhood/World quartet of XO specific keys will be missed, but I understand that it is tough to collapse 6 rows of XO keys into 4 rows for Maliit. Yes space is at a premium using an OSK [1], however as the OSK is only visible when a text input widget has focus, we need to make sure Neighborhood/Group/Home/Activity/Journal are accessible at all other times as well, primarily by improving touch access to the Frame (and improving Frame discovery, though unlkely for this cycle). I've got lots of other questions, but they are more i18n related, so I'll forego inserting them into this design thread, No, bring them up here if they are OSK related! but I can't resist throwing one out there. Is there currently a mechanism for re-creating the many xkb-based layouts already designed for OLPC that never got silkscreened? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Keyboard_layouts No, those are physical layouts not designed for OSK. There about 40 existing maliit layouts that I'll update to match our OSK design modifications. And then I'd imagine we will want to closely check the OSK layouts for the languages we prioritise, and make sure they cover our needs (the existing OLPC layouts will be a useful reference). Thanks for the feedback! Regards, --Gary [1] 8-10mm per touch target is about as small as you want to go for key hit targets, and we are at 9.5mm in portrait for the v13 layout example (assuming the current XO screen dimensions). cjl ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [Design] On Screen Keyboard – part of the 'get Sugar touch ready' feature set
[1] 8-10mm per touch target is about as small as you want to go for key hit targets, and we are at 9.5mm in portrait for the v13 layout example (assuming the current XO screen dimensions). Do you know how much is this in pixels or better in style.zoom() units? Should be good have this information available for activity developers. Gonzalo ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [Design] On Screen Keyboard – part of the 'get Sugar touch ready' feature set
Hi Gonzalo, On 23 Aug 2012, at 16:20, Gonzalo Odiard gonz...@laptop.org wrote: [1] 8-10mm per touch target is about as small as you want to go for key hit targets, and we are at 9.5mm in portrait for the v13 layout example (assuming the current XO screen dimensions). Do you know how much is this in pixels or better in style.zoom() units? Should be good have this information available for activity developers. Well I can tell you that our standard toolbar button size is already pretty much spot on :) this is part of the reason I was happy that Sugar designs already had a very good basis for touch support vs. other desktop operating systems. Regards, --Gary Gonzalo ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [Design] On Screen Keyboard – part of the 'get Sugar touch ready' feature set
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: I like the most recent version well enough, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Maliit_Sugar_theme_work_13.png High praise ;) Improvements/changes? Sorry, I did not mean to damn with faint praise, it is really good work under very tight restrictions. I personally find the XO physical kb limiting, so I bought a rollable rubber USB kb :-) I am sincerely excited about the potential for an OSK in the realm of limitless i18n/L10n freed from the shackles of silkscreening. I'm a little concerned that the absence of the Home/Friends/Neighborhood/World quartet of XO specific keys will be missed, but I understand that it is tough to collapse 6 rows of XO keys into 4 rows for Maliit. Yes space is at a premium using an OSK [1], however as the OSK is only visible when a text input widget has focus, we need to make sure Neighborhood/Group/Home/Activity/Journal are accessible at all other times as well, primarily by improving touch access to the Frame (and improving Frame discovery, though unlikely for this cycle). Yes, the ergonomics of frame invocation/dismissal and switching focus from kb to other touch input needs deep thought, but I have confidence in the people smarter in UI design than I am that will be working on it. :-). I don't expect it to be tuned to re-training fossils like me, but at the agile minds and fingers of kids. I've got lots of other questions, but they are more i18n related, so I'll forego inserting them into this design thread, No, bring them up here if they are OSK related! Ok, you asked for it :-) Is there currently a mechanism for re-creating the many xkb-based layouts already designed for OLPC that never got silkscreened? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Keyboard_layouts No, those are physical layouts not designed for OSK. There about 40 existing maliit layouts that I'll update to match our OSK design modifications. And then I'd imagine we will want to closely check the OSK layouts for the languages we prioritise, and make sure they cover our needs (the existing OLPC layouts will be a useful reference). Getting the existing OLPC xkb designs recreated is going to be pretty important once the existing Maliit layouts are adapted. It's also going to be a repetitive task (see attached spreadsheet), I'm wondering if there are hackerish methods for assisting in that task (scripts, spreadsheet templates, etc.)? Even the list of OLPC xkb layouts in my spreadsheet is incomplete, for example, I know of a layout for an Inuktitut variant that Walter helped some Canadians design. Generating some local documentation on de novo Maliit keyboard design is going to pretty important as I can easily imagine getting asked a lot of questions about this that can no longer be put off with, well, first you make a silkscreen in a factory in China. . . I'd love to be able to do more for new languages than say go look at https://wiki.maliit.org/Documentation and let me know when you've figured out their process. Sugar Labs is, by it's nature, an entry point for languages under-represented in ICT and we already do a lot of stuff (like glibc locale design assistance) in support of these language communities. Language switching: So, with the language switch key you can toggle through a stack of keyboards that you've configured in the Control Panel (in advance). All by itself, that would be awesome and really enhance multilingual / multi-script input. This more-or-less implements the Language key already found on Arabic and Thai OLPC keyboards, but does so for all keyboards. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Keyboard#Special_Keys http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Arabic_Keyboard http://wiki.laptop.org/go/File:Key_arabic.jpg http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Thai_Keyboard http://wiki.laptop.org/go/File:Key_thai.jpg This also seems to be necessary, but not sufficient, for the utopian ideal of toggling through UI languages / glibc locales on-the-fly (without going to Control Panel and rebooting). How far away is such a promised land once we have keyboard switching? cjl OLPC_kbs.ods Description: application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.spreadsheet ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [Design] On Screen Keyboard – part of the 'get Sugar touch ready' feature set
2012/8/22 Gary C Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com: Hi all, I've pulled together most of the design mockups onto a wiki page [1] for the ongoing work on the Maliit based on screen keyboard (OSK). This is part of the feature set [2] to get the Sugar UI/UX touch ready, as raised by Simon on the mail-list already. Please feel free to use the wiki discussion page, or reply to this email thread if you have any OSK design related feedback! Excellent! For the definitive one, what's the highlight color of the keys? -- .. manuq .. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [Design] On Screen Keyboard – part of the 'get Sugar touch ready' feature set
On 22 Aug 2012, at 20:58, Manuel Quiñones ma...@laptop.org wrote: 2012/8/22 Gary C Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com: Hi all, I've pulled together most of the design mockups onto a wiki page [1] for the ongoing work on the Maliit based on screen keyboard (OSK). This is part of the feature set [2] to get the Sugar UI/UX touch ready, as raised by Simon on the mail-list already. Please feel free to use the wiki discussion page, or reply to this email thread if you have any OSK design related feedback! Excellent! For the definitive one, what's the highlight color of the keys? By definitive, do you mean the final selected one? I was hoping to see what the reaction was to these mockups first, but the highlight (on key press) certainly wont be the blue gradient used in the existing maliit olpc-xo theme. Expect a key press will be a simple monochrome darkening of a key fill (if we go for a light default key fill style), or a brightening of a key fill (if we go for a dark default key fill style). These parts of the style definition are simple png images, so easy to tweak. The key layout is a more complicated affair as it requires modification of XML files for each language layout [1], so I'd rather lock down an agreed layout before I start trying to apply them to 40+ different languages – and yes I plan to script the edits as far as I can ;) FWIW, looks like this will be a patch set we need to apply to out builds as although maliit supports custom styles (olpc-xo is the one they added for us), their layouts are shared between all styles, so they would be unlikely to accept patches from us wanting to modify them all for Sugar's needs. Regards, --Gary [1] https://gitorious.org/maliit/maliit-plugins/trees/master/maliit-keyboard/data/languages -- .. manuq .. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [Design] On Screen Keyboard – part of the 'get Sugar touch ready' feature set
2012/8/22 Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com: On 22 Aug 2012, at 20:58, Manuel Quiñones ma...@laptop.org wrote: 2012/8/22 Gary C Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com: Hi all, I've pulled together most of the design mockups onto a wiki page [1] for the ongoing work on the Maliit based on screen keyboard (OSK). This is part of the feature set [2] to get the Sugar UI/UX touch ready, as raised by Simon on the mail-list already. Please feel free to use the wiki discussion page, or reply to this email thread if you have any OSK design related feedback! Excellent! For the definitive one, what's the highlight color of the keys? By definitive, do you mean the final selected one? I was hoping to see what the reaction was to these mockups first Yes I think the final selected one is the nicest. Then a brightening of a key fill would make it. Great :) -- .. manuq .. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [Design] On Screen Keyboard – part of the 'get Sugar touch ready' feature set
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:09 PM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: The key layout is a more complicated affair as it requires modification of XML files for each language layout [1], so I'd rather lock down an agreed layout before I start trying to apply them to 40+ different languages – and yes I plan to script the edits as far as I can ;) FWIW, looks like this will be a patch set we need to apply to out builds as although maliit supports custom styles (olpc-xo is the one they added for us), their layouts are shared between all styles, so they would be unlikely to accept patches from us wanting to modify them all for Sugar's needs. [1] https://gitorious.org/maliit/maliit-plugins/trees/master/maliit-keyboard/data/languages I like the most recent version well enough, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Maliit_Sugar_theme_work_13.png I'm a little concerned that the absence of the Home/Friends/Neighborhood/World quartet of XO specific keys will be missed, but I understand that it is tough to collapse 6 rows of XO keys into 4 rows for Maliit. I've got lots of other questions, but they are more i18n related, so I'll forego inserting them into this design thread, but I can't resist throwing one out there. Is there currently a mechanism for re-creating the many xkb-based layouts already designed for OLPC that never got silkscreened? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Keyboard_layouts cjl ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
