Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz bmsch...@fas.harvard.edu wrote: Michel Alexandre Salim wrote: I seem to recall several Python apps moving from numpy to numarray in the past, so it should be doable. I strongly suspect you are backwards. Numarray is the deprecated predecessor to numpy. I was indeed. I was thinking of Numeric being replaced by Numarray, before Numpy then came along. Regards, -- Michel Alexandre Salim ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:33 AM, Bernie Innocenti ber...@codewiz.org wrote: Hello, the sugar-pippy rpm in Fedora depends on pygame, which is used by some of the examples. So far, so good, but pygame in turn depends on numpy, a 7.7MB package which a lot of huge dependencies such as atlas (11MB), libgfortran (1MB), blas (700KB) and python-nose (1MB). The rest of Sugar is now free of numpy, so it would be good if we could get rid of it completely. One quick solution would be splitting the problematic examples to a sugar-pippy-examples-extra package. Another possibility -- probably the cleanest -- would be splitting the optional classes surfarray and sndarray to a subpackage of pygame. The numpy dep issue was discussed on fedora-devel a while ago and I thought they were going to split the specific bit of numpy that depended on atlas et al out into a separate package. I was of the understanding that this had already been done. Peter ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 09:33:17PM -0400, Bernie Innocenti wrote: Hello, the sugar-pippy rpm in Fedora depends on pygame, which is used by some of the examples. So far, so good, but pygame in turn depends on numpy, a 7.7MB package which a lot of huge dependencies such as atlas (11MB), libgfortran (1MB), blas (700KB) and python-nose (1MB). The rest of Sugar is now free of numpy, so it would be good if we could get rid of it completely. One quick solution would be splitting the problematic examples to a sugar-pippy-examples-extra package. Another possibility -- probably the cleanest -- would be splitting the optional classes surfarray and sndarray to a subpackage of pygame. pygame and numpy are parts of Sugar Platform[1], at least for 0.84, so, the right question is should these pakcages be a part of SP-0.86 I guess +1 for both, since we have honey activities that are depend on these packages. [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.84/Sugar_Platform -- Aleksey ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:36:19PM +, Aleksey Lim wrote: On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 09:33:17PM -0400, Bernie Innocenti wrote: Hello, the sugar-pippy rpm in Fedora depends on pygame, which is used by some of the examples. So far, so good, but pygame in turn depends on numpy, a 7.7MB package which a lot of huge dependencies such as atlas (11MB), libgfortran (1MB), blas (700KB) and python-nose (1MB). The rest of Sugar is now free of numpy, so it would be good if we could get rid of it completely. One quick solution would be splitting the problematic examples to a sugar-pippy-examples-extra package. Another possibility -- probably the cleanest -- would be splitting the optional classes surfarray and sndarray to a subpackage of pygame. pygame and numpy are parts of Sugar Platform[1], at least for 0.84, so, the right question is should these pakcages be a part of SP-0.86 I guess +1 for both, since we have honey activities that are depend on these packages. But if question is only about Pippy deps, jhconvert's Pippy doesn't have these deps(sugar-platform does). [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.84/Sugar_Platform -- Aleksey ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
El Tue, 29-09-2009 a las 12:36 +, Aleksey Lim escribió: pygame and numpy are parts of Sugar Platform[1], at least for 0.84, so, the right question is should these pakcages be a part of SP-0.86 I guess +1 for both, since we have honey activities that are depend on these packages. In Sugar shell 0.82, the only thing that numpy was providing was a bit matrix. In 0.82, we replaced it with faster and lighter C code in sugar-base, and it was a big performance win. I suspect the #1 usecase for numpy is to compensate for lack of good array support in Python. Questions: 1) are there lighter-weight alternatives for the most popular uses of numpy? 1) how many of the existing activities actually depend on numpy? 2) would it be hard to remove this dependency from them? 3) Should we define a policy for deprecating components of the Sugar Platform in new revisions? All evolving standards need to find a balance between new features with old feature removal to avoid unbounded bloat. 4) Even if numpy is going to stay around for the Sugar Platform, could we remove it from Pippy and other core activities to save resources and allow shipping lighter weight live distros? -- // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/ \X/ Sugar Labs - http://sugarlabs.org/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Bernie Innocenti ber...@codewiz.org wrote: El Tue, 29-09-2009 a las 12:36 +, Aleksey Lim escribió: pygame and numpy are parts of Sugar Platform[1], at least for 0.84, so, the right question is should these pakcages be a part of SP-0.86 I guess +1 for both, since we have honey activities that are depend on these packages. In Sugar shell 0.82, the only thing that numpy was providing was a bit matrix. In 0.82, we replaced it with faster and lighter C code in sugar-base, and it was a big performance win. I suspect the #1 usecase for numpy is to compensate for lack of good array support in Python. Questions: 1) are there lighter-weight alternatives for the most popular uses of numpy? 1) how many of the existing activities actually depend on numpy? A quick repo query gives me pippy and sugar-speak in the fedora repo. Peter ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
We use numpy in Measure for array support and the fft library. We used it in Turtle Art with Sensors for similar reasons. -walter On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Peter Robinson pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Bernie Innocenti ber...@codewiz.org wrote: El Tue, 29-09-2009 a las 12:36 +, Aleksey Lim escribió: pygame and numpy are parts of Sugar Platform[1], at least for 0.84, so, the right question is should these pakcages be a part of SP-0.86 I guess +1 for both, since we have honey activities that are depend on these packages. In Sugar shell 0.82, the only thing that numpy was providing was a bit matrix. In 0.82, we replaced it with faster and lighter C code in sugar-base, and it was a big performance win. I suspect the #1 usecase for numpy is to compensate for lack of good array support in Python. Questions: 1) are there lighter-weight alternatives for the most popular uses of numpy? 1) how many of the existing activities actually depend on numpy? A quick repo query gives me pippy and sugar-speak in the fedora repo. Peter ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
Bernie Innocenti wrote: Questions: 1) are there lighter-weight alternatives for the most popular uses of numpy? No. It has no competition, and is used by virtually every program that uses python and performs array manipulation. I think it would probably be part of the python standard library except for political issues (now mostly resolved). 1) how many of the existing activities actually depend on numpy? Many. I know that Distance uses it for FFT, for example. I believe Calculate requires it as well, because it uses matplotlib for plotting, and matplotlib requires numpy. 2) would it be hard to remove this dependency from them? Yes. Numpy provides high-speed math for python. 3) Should we define a policy for deprecating components of the Sugar Platform in new revisions? All evolving standards need to find a balance between new features with old feature removal to avoid unbounded bloat. Maybe, but numpy is not a good example. Virtually all science-oriented programs using python make use of numpy. 4) Even if numpy is going to stay around for the Sugar Platform, could we remove it from Pippy and other core activities to save resources and allow shipping lighter weight live distros? Only if you don't mind that many Activities will mysteriously fail to launch. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Bernie Innocenti ber...@codewiz.org wrote: El Tue, 29-09-2009 a las 12:36 +, Aleksey Lim escribió: I suspect the #1 usecase for numpy is to compensate for lack of good array support in Python. Questions: 1) are there lighter-weight alternatives for the most popular uses of numpy? How about numarray? $ rpm -q --requires python-numarray /bin/sh /usr/bin/env libc.so.6()(64bit) libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.2.5)(64bit) libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.3)(64bit) libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.3.4)(64bit) libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.4)(64bit) libm.so.6()(64bit) libm.so.6(GLIBC_2.2.5)(64bit) libpthread.so.0()(64bit) libpython2.6.so.1.0()(64bit) python(abi) = 2.6 rpmlib(CompressedFileNames) = 3.0.4-1 rpmlib(FileDigests) = 4.6.0-1 rpmlib(PartialHardlinkSets) = 4.0.4-1 rpmlib(PayloadFilesHavePrefix) = 4.0-1 rpmlib(VersionedDependencies) = 3.0.3-1 rtld(GNU_HASH) rpmlib(PayloadIsXz) = 5.2-1 1) how many of the existing activities actually depend on numpy? Peter answered this 2) would it be hard to remove this dependency from them? I seem to recall several Python apps moving from numpy to numarray in the past, so it should be doable. If we want to do this, we should probably create a tracker bug in Bugzilla. 3) Should we define a policy for deprecating components of the Sugar Platform in new revisions? All evolving standards need to find a balance between new features with old feature removal to avoid unbounded bloat. That sounds reasonable. Like new activities using numpy will not be accepted? If the porting work from numpy to numarray is documented, this should be linked to from the policy as well, so that people can adapt their activities. 4) Even if numpy is going to stay around for the Sugar Platform, could we remove it from Pippy and other core activities to save resources and allow shipping lighter weight live distros? Probably a good thing to do, yes. Regards, -- Michel Alexandre Salim -- Michel Alexandre Salim ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
El Tue, 29-09-2009 a las 16:25 -0400, Benjamin M. Schwartz escribió: Bernie Innocenti wrote: 1) are there lighter-weight alternatives for the most popular uses of numpy? No. It has no competition, and is used by virtually every program that uses python and performs array manipulation. I think it would probably be part of the python standard library except for political issues (now mostly resolved). It's not used as much as you think: 1!ber...@giskard:~$ LANG=C rpm -e numpy error: Failed dependencies: numpy is needed by (installed) pygame-1.8.1-7.fc12.x86_64 ber...@giskard:~$ rpm -qa | grep python | wc -l 93 It's also one of the worst startup time offenders I've ever seen in Python: with hot caches, it takes 300ms on a fast computer (~2 seconds on an XO). A lot longer if you have to actually fetch it from disk along with its unique dependencies. 2) would it be hard to remove this dependency from them? Yes. Numpy provides high-speed math for python. high-speed *advanced* math functions. -- // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/ \X/ Sugar Labs - http://sugarlabs.org/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
Michel Alexandre Salim wrote: I seem to recall several Python apps moving from numpy to numarray in the past, so it should be doable. I strongly suspect you are backwards. Numarray is the deprecated predecessor to numpy. http://www.stsci.edu/resources/software_hardware/numarray/numarray.html numarray is being phased out and replaced by numpy. ... we expect to stop supporting numarray entirely in the middle of 2008. If you have a choice (i.e., you do not depend on existing software that uses numarray), we strongly recommend starting with numpy instead of numarray (or switching as soon as possible). signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Bernie Innocenti ber...@codewiz.org wrote: El Tue, 29-09-2009 a las 16:25 -0400, Benjamin M. Schwartz escribió: Bernie Innocenti wrote: 1) are there lighter-weight alternatives for the most popular uses of numpy? No. It has no competition, and is used by virtually every program that uses python and performs array manipulation. I think it would probably be part of the python standard library except for political issues (now mostly resolved). It's not used as much as you think: 1!ber...@giskard:~$ LANG=C rpm -e numpy error: Failed dependencies: numpy is needed by (installed) pygame-1.8.1-7.fc12.x86_64 ber...@giskard:~$ rpm -qa | grep python | wc -l 93 On a standard SoaS install unfortunately that is completely useless because of course .xo files have no dependency tracking so it only covers the few packages that are rpms. Of course if the rpm format was used the dep tracking would be easy :-D Peter ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote: On 09/29/2009 12:51 AM, Peter Robinson wrote: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:33 AM, Bernie Innocenti ber...@codewiz.org wrote: Hello, the sugar-pippy rpm in Fedora depends on pygame, which is used by some of the examples. So far, so good, but pygame in turn depends on numpy, a 7.7MB package which a lot of huge dependencies such as atlas (11MB), libgfortran (1MB), blas (700KB) and python-nose (1MB). The rest of Sugar is now free of numpy, so it would be good if we could get rid of it completely. One quick solution would be splitting the problematic examples to a sugar-pippy-examples-extra package. Another possibility -- probably the cleanest -- would be splitting the optional classes surfarray and sndarray to a subpackage of pygame. The numpy dep issue was discussed on fedora-devel a while ago and I thought they were going to split the specific bit of numpy that depended on atlas et al out into a separate package. I was of the understanding that this had already been done. I admit I'm not following sugar and numpy discussions too closely so I might have missed it but I don't remember this. I do remember talking about removing the numpy dependency from pygtk because it dragged in atlas, et al and was only used by a single pygtk function. I remember that as well but at least with a quick repoquery (I might have got it wrong) it looks like the dependency is still there. Not sure what happened to the fix. Peter ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote: On 09/29/2009 01:52 PM, Peter Robinson wrote: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote: I admit I'm not following sugar and numpy discussions too closely so I might have missed it but I don't remember this. I do remember talking about removing the numpy dependency from pygtk because it dragged in atlas, et al and was only used by a single pygtk function. I remember that as well but at least with a quick repoquery (I might have got it wrong) it looks like the dependency is still there. Not sure what happened to the fix. Was that on F-11 or rawhide? I downloaded the pygtk2 package from rawhide and it looks fixed. rawhide, I think the numpy support was just dropped from pygtk2 as opposed to fixing the dependencies in numpy themselves. numpy still depends on atlas and various other stuff. I'm not sure what the impact of either changes are, I'd have to dig back through archives to find the thread. Peter ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-pippy dependencies
I wouldn't mind seeing a custom PyGame for Sugar (let's call it sugargame). Ryan Gordon made a GTK backend for SDL which would allow the PyGame display to coexist with GTK widgets[1]. Also, Nirav Patel has written a sweet PyGame camera module which supports object tracking etc. There's probably a bunch of other useful stuff that could be rolled into PyGame beyond what the (unmaintained) OLPCGames wrapper provides. -Wade [1] - http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/games/2007-April/89.html http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/games/2007-April/89.html On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Bernie Innocenti ber...@codewiz.orgwrote: Hello, the sugar-pippy rpm in Fedora depends on pygame, which is used by some of the examples. So far, so good, but pygame in turn depends on numpy, a 7.7MB package which a lot of huge dependencies such as atlas (11MB), libgfortran (1MB), blas (700KB) and python-nose (1MB). The rest of Sugar is now free of numpy, so it would be good if we could get rid of it completely. One quick solution would be splitting the problematic examples to a sugar-pippy-examples-extra package. Another possibility -- probably the cleanest -- would be splitting the optional classes surfarray and sndarray to a subpackage of pygame. -- // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/ \X/ Sugar Labs - http://sugarlabs.org/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
