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--- Begin Message --- Dear Steve and dear All, Yours is a very good intuition. I discussed this recently in some conferences on the Roman sundials. I believe that the depiction of sundials as Hemysphaerium, the Hemicyclium, the Pelignum, etc. in these mosaics, is intended not so much to provide scientific guidance on how they were actually these tools and how they were positioned accurately, but had a value only symbological and philosophical. The sundial in Greece as in Rome, was the concept of time and of time measurement: physical time, chronological time, time of memories, time grows short, and, in this case the new mosaic, perhaps the time of "Panta Rei" associated with the concept of "Carpe Diem". In the mosaic of Pompeii, the Hemicyclium (or Hemisphaerium) is placed on a high column, on top of all the philosophers and heads is the high concept, perhaps unattainable, the time on which the philosophers themselves they talk for days . It 'clear that a clock as the Hemicyclium and the Hemisphaerium, for their same features should not be placed at a much higher height of the height of a man, otherwise the reading time would be made very difficult. In Pompeii there is a horizontal sundial drawn on a half-column, low enough to be seen and read even by a child! Always in Pompeii, there are many Hemicyclium positioned in the various houses, such as the House of Menander, but they are all located on the ground. The only place on a high column in the way that you see in these mosaics is what is in the Forum, but it is a reconstruction ordered by the nineteenth century archaeologists. (sorry, translated with google) Italian: La tua è una ottima intuizione. Ne ho parlato recentemente in alcune conferenze sugli orologi solari romani. Credo che la raffigurazione di orologi solari come l'hemisphaerium, l'hemicyclium, il Pelignum, etc. in questi mosaici, sia voluta non tanto per fornire indicazioni scientifiche sul come erano realmente questi strumenti e come venivano posizionati con precisione, ma aveva una valenza esclusivamente simbologica e filosofica. L'orologio solare nella Grecia come in Roma, rappresentava il concetto di tempo e della misura del tempo: il tempo fisico, il tempo cronologico, il tempo dei ricordi, il tempo che scorre veloce e, in questo caso del nuovo mosaico, forse il tempo del "Panta Rei" associato al concetto del "Carpe Diem". Nel mosaico di Pompei, l'Hemicyclium (o Hemisphaerium) si trova collocato sopra una altissima colonna, al di sopra di tutte le teste dei filosofi e rappresenta l'alto concetto, forse inarrivabile, del tempo sul quale i filosofi stessi discorrono per giornate intere. E' chiaro che un orologio come l'Hemicyclium e l'Hemisphaerium, per le loro stesse caratteristiche non dovrebbero essere posizionati ad una altezza molto più elevata dell'altezza di un uomo, altrimenti la lettura dell'ora sarebbe resa molto difficile. A Pompei esiste un orologio solare orizzontale disegnato su una mezza colonna, abbastanza bassa da essere visto e letto anche da un bambino! Sempre a Pompei, esistono molti Hemicyclium posizionati nelle varie case, come la Casa di Menandro, ma sono tutti posizionati a terra. L'unico posto su una colonna alta nel modo che si vede in questi mosaici è quello che sta nel Forum, ma si tratta di una ricostruzione voluta dagli archeologi del XIX secolo. The best, Nicola >Messaggio originale >Da: Steve Lelievre >Data: 25/04/2016 20.20 >A: >Ogg: Re: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar > > >Several of the mosaics mentioned in this discussion show the dial >perched atop a pillar. In most cases they appear to be a little higher >that head height. Is this an illusion arising from lack of perspective >or differences of scale in different parts of the mosaics? Perhaps they >intended as representations of large monumental dials that could be read >from a distance? Or, is it how ordinary sized dials were actually >installed? If so, what is the reason? Nowadays, most dials (except >verticals) that I've encountered are placed low enough that most people >are looking downwards at them to read the time. > >Cheers, >Steve >49°13'16.3"N 123°07'08.9"W > > > >On 2016-04-25 9:04 AM, Schechner, Sara wrote: >> These are all really wonderful, Rob. Thanks so much for drawing our attention to them. And thanks to you, Lorenzo, for your remarks. >> >> Sara J. Schechner >> Altazimuth Arts >> 42°36'N 71° 22'W >> West Newton, MA 02465 >> http://www.altazimutharts.com/ >> >> Sara J. Schechner, Ph.D. >> David P. Wheatland Curator of the Collection of Historical Scientific Instruments >> Lecturer on the History of Science >> Department of the History of Science, Harvard University >> Science Center 251c, 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 >> Tel: 617-496-9542 | Fax: 617-496-5932 >> sche...@fas.harvard.edu |@SaraSchechner >> http://scholar.harvard.edu/saraschechner >> http://chsi.harvard.edu/ >> >> >> >> -Ori
Re: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar
Several of the mosaics mentioned in this discussion show the dial perched atop a pillar. In most cases they appear to be a little higher that head height. Is this an illusion arising from lack of perspective or differences of scale in different parts of the mosaics? Perhaps they intended as representations of large monumental dials that could be read from a distance? Or, is it how ordinary sized dials were actually installed? If so, what is the reason? Nowadays, most dials (except verticals) that I've encountered are placed low enough that most people are looking downwards at them to read the time. Cheers, Steve 49°13'16.3"N 123°07'08.9"W On 2016-04-25 9:04 AM, Schechner, Sara wrote: These are all really wonderful, Rob. Thanks so much for drawing our attention to them. And thanks to you, Lorenzo, for your remarks. Sara J. Schechner Altazimuth Arts 42°36'N 71° 22'W West Newton, MA 02465 http://www.altazimutharts.com/ Sara J. Schechner, Ph.D. David P. Wheatland Curator of the Collection of Historical Scientific Instruments Lecturer on the History of Science Department of the History of Science, Harvard University Science Center 251c, 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: 617-496-9542 | Fax: 617-496-5932 sche...@fas.harvard.edu |@SaraSchechner http://scholar.harvard.edu/saraschechner http://chsi.harvard.edu/ -Original Message- From: History of Astronomy Discussion Group [mailto:hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu] On Behalf Of Gent, R.H. van (Rob) Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 5:40 AM To: hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu Subject: Re: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar Hi Lorenzo, Thanks for your insightful comments. You can find better images of the Antioch (Antakya) mosaic here http://www.uskinfo.ba/m/vijest/foto-pronaden-mozaik-s-porukom-budi-veseo-zivi-zivot-iz-3-stoljeca-prije-nove-ere/22031 A better image of the other sundial mosaic found in Daphne (Harbiye), also near Antioch, can be found here http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/faces/jsp/layouts/inventoryCollectionDetail.jsp?inventoryid=3762 For accessing the complete high-resolution image, save the website (complete) and look in the folder saved with the html file. The Hatay Archaeology Museum in Antakya has a website http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/flash/main_EN.html which gives digital access to numerous other interesting mosaics http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/faces/jsp/layouts/search.jsp?Lang=en The sundial mosaic is nr. 865. Also of interest is nr. 949a-950 with a panel illustrating the story of Perseus and Andromeda. More mosaics with a sundial on a pillar are here http://michel.lalos.free.fr/cadrans_solaires/autres_pays/royaume_uni/cs_ile_de_wight.html and here http://www.electrummagazine.com/2011/11/platos-circle-in-the-mosaic-of-pompeii/ rvg -Original Message- From: History of Astronomy Discussion Group [mailto:hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Smerillo Sent: maandag 25 april 2016 10:44 To: hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu Subject: Re: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar Rob, The dot enclosing a circle is very important as the MSS evidence (v. Neugebauer and van Hoesen) is always of a circle with a little 'pointed cap' attached. I am not certain that the iconographic convention of mosaicists and astronomical writers need be the same, nor if there is other papyrical or inscriptional evidence for either, both of which are perfectly legible and understandable in se. The usual convention was to write out (Elios or Sol. But a representation of a man looking at a sundial would representationally take more naturally a pictograph of Sol, and a circle enclosing a dot does that nicely. I think that the 'little cap' is actually a borrowing from the usual iconographic representations ( as on the parapegmata from the Thermae Trainai, Dura Europus, the Rheinisches Landesmuseum mould, the Arlon hebdomadal, &c.) of SOL as a head with three or four radii, using only one, for, perhaps, scribal convenience. The inscription on http://www.gettyimages.nl/detail/foto/mosaic-depicting-man-looking-at-sundial-from-ancient-stockfotos/98953317 enatEparE / lasen ~ e(i)natE parElasen I would translate as 'it has reached the ninth(hour)' . Newspapers, and Turkish newspapers in particular, have some difficulty with AD and BC dates, as 1.) they are translating sloppily and 2.) they are essentially ephemeral in their scope. So the dates of the Graeco-Roman mosaics are not BC as you point out! feliciter. Lorenzo Smerillo Department of Classics and Humanities Montclair State University Montclair, NJ 07043 On 23 April 2016 at 11:15, Gent, R.H. van (Rob) wrote: Hi, The following news items on some recently discovered mosaics in Turkey may be of interest to the list. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/be-cheerful-live-your-life-ancient-mo saic-meme-found-in-turkeys-south.aspx?PageID=238&NID=98201&NewsCatID=3 75 ht
RE: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar
These are all really wonderful, Rob. Thanks so much for drawing our attention to them. And thanks to you, Lorenzo, for your remarks. Sara J. Schechner Altazimuth Arts 42°36'N 71° 22'W West Newton, MA 02465 http://www.altazimutharts.com/ Sara J. Schechner, Ph.D. David P. Wheatland Curator of the Collection of Historical Scientific Instruments Lecturer on the History of Science Department of the History of Science, Harvard University Science Center 251c, 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: 617-496-9542 | Fax: 617-496-5932 sche...@fas.harvard.edu |@SaraSchechner http://scholar.harvard.edu/saraschechner http://chsi.harvard.edu/ -Original Message- From: History of Astronomy Discussion Group [mailto:hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu] On Behalf Of Gent, R.H. van (Rob) Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 5:40 AM To: hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu Subject: Re: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar Hi Lorenzo, Thanks for your insightful comments. You can find better images of the Antioch (Antakya) mosaic here http://www.uskinfo.ba/m/vijest/foto-pronaden-mozaik-s-porukom-budi-veseo-zivi-zivot-iz-3-stoljeca-prije-nove-ere/22031 A better image of the other sundial mosaic found in Daphne (Harbiye), also near Antioch, can be found here http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/faces/jsp/layouts/inventoryCollectionDetail.jsp?inventoryid=3762 For accessing the complete high-resolution image, save the website (complete) and look in the folder saved with the html file. The Hatay Archaeology Museum in Antakya has a website http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/flash/main_EN.html which gives digital access to numerous other interesting mosaics http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/faces/jsp/layouts/search.jsp?Lang=en The sundial mosaic is nr. 865. Also of interest is nr. 949a-950 with a panel illustrating the story of Perseus and Andromeda. More mosaics with a sundial on a pillar are here http://michel.lalos.free.fr/cadrans_solaires/autres_pays/royaume_uni/cs_ile_de_wight.html and here http://www.electrummagazine.com/2011/11/platos-circle-in-the-mosaic-of-pompeii/ rvg -Original Message- From: History of Astronomy Discussion Group [mailto:hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Smerillo Sent: maandag 25 april 2016 10:44 To: hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu Subject: Re: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar Rob, The dot enclosing a circle is very important as the MSS evidence (v. Neugebauer and van Hoesen) is always of a circle with a little 'pointed cap' attached. I am not certain that the iconographic convention of mosaicists and astronomical writers need be the same, nor if there is other papyrical or inscriptional evidence for either, both of which are perfectly legible and understandable in se. The usual convention was to write out (Elios or Sol. But a representation of a man looking at a sundial would representationally take more naturally a pictograph of Sol, and a circle enclosing a dot does that nicely. I think that the 'little cap' is actually a borrowing from the usual iconographic representations ( as on the parapegmata from the Thermae Trainai, Dura Europus, the Rheinisches Landesmuseum mould, the Arlon hebdomadal, &c.) of SOL as a head with three or four radii, using only one, for, perhaps, scribal convenience. The inscription on http://www.gettyimages.nl/detail/foto/mosaic-depicting-man-looking-at-sundial-from-ancient-stockfotos/98953317 enatEparE / lasen ~ e(i)natE parElasen I would translate as 'it has reached the ninth(hour)' . Newspapers, and Turkish newspapers in particular, have some difficulty with AD and BC dates, as 1.) they are translating sloppily and 2.) they are essentially ephemeral in their scope. So the dates of the Graeco-Roman mosaics are not BC as you point out! feliciter. Lorenzo Smerillo Department of Classics and Humanities Montclair State University Montclair, NJ 07043 On 23 April 2016 at 11:15, Gent, R.H. van (Rob) wrote: > Hi, > > The following news items on some recently discovered mosaics in Turkey > may be of interest to the list. > > > http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/be-cheerful-live-your-life-ancient-mo > saic-meme-found-in-turkeys-south.aspx?PageID=238&NID=98201&NewsCatID=3 > 75 > > > http://www.dailysabah.com/nation/2016/04/22/2400-year-old-mosaic-found > -in-southern-turkey-says-be-cheerful-enjoy-your-life > > Although the mosaics are probably later than claimed in these popular > press reports, the most interesting part of these mosaics (the middle > one) depicts what appears to be a hemispherical sundial on a pillar. > > Note that the Sun is indicated above the sundial as a circled dot. > > For a similar mosaic with a sundial (also found in Turkey), see > > > http://www.gettyimages.nl/detail/foto/mosaic-depicting-man-looking-at- > sundial-from-ancient-stockfotos/98953317 > > rvg > --- https://lists.uni-koel
