Re: Denizli sundial
I would like to add two arguments to the questions under discussion: 1. Prof. Şimşek said: “On the North Parados passage in the Western Theater, which dates back to the Hellenistic Era, in the ancient city we have found a spherical sundial facing south, which we believe to be 2,020 years old. This is a kind of conclusion which does not help by dating the dial. A comparison with similar specimens reveals that it was probably done around 200 – 400 CE. 2. “Inscribed on the dial are the Greek word ‘Ksimerini’, or winter on the upper part; ‘Isimerini’, or solstice, which denotes the equality of day and night in the middle; and ‘Terini’, or summer in the bottom.” I read (ΤΡΟΠH) ΧΕ(Ι)ΜΕΡΙΝH / IΣΗΜΕΡΙΝH / (ΤΡΟΠH) ΘΕΡΙΝH. These are the names of the solstices and the equinoxes. What is conspicuous is the missing of I in χειμερινή (it should be written with diacritic signs). That is another strong argument that it was done in the Roman era. With best wishes Karlheinz Schaldach From: Michael Ossipoff Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 5:11 AM To: Maes, F.W. Cc: Sundial List Subject: Re: Denizli sundial "Inscribed on the dial are the Greek word ‘Ksimerini’, or winter on the upper part No doubt "Merini" referring to "day", related to "Mera", meaning "Day", combined with "Xi-", which must mean something like "longest". ; ‘Isimerini’, or solstice, which denotes the equality of day and night in the middle; and ‘Terini’, or summer in the bottom." The middle line is for the equinoxes, not a solstice. If it says "Isimerini", then that combines "-merini", referreing to "Day", and something obviously likely to be related to "Iso-" which we all know to mean "same" or "equal". Ksimerini would in Greek start with Ξ (ksi), but a close look at the initial, hi-res photo strongly suggests that the first character is X (chi) Yes, that column of horizontal lines is the Greek capital "Ksee" (as pronounced in English). The lower case would look like a more or less vertical squiggly line. It's pronounced like our English "X". Yes, the Greek letter written as "X", is pronounced like aspirated "k", as in "Loch" or "Achtung". ...and its name "chi", is pronounced in English with that consonant-sound, though we often hear it said as just a "k". I didn't notice the "T" in the word on the Summer-Solstice line. It looked. to me, just like Merine on the top 2 lines, and Erini on the bottom--line. Michael Ossipoff Aprilis 10th, 2020 Aries 22nd 16 F You wrote: , in accordance with what John Davis and John Wilson's wife read. So it seems the names are spelled as follows: XIMEPINH = winter solstice IΣHMEPINH = equinox TEPINH = summer solstice in which X is Greek chi, P is Greek rho, H is Greek eta. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Denizli sundial
> > "Inscribed on the dial are the Greek word ‘Ksimerini’, or winter on the > upper part > No doubt "Merini" referring to "day", related to "Mera", meaning "Day", combined with "Xi-", which must mean something like "longest". ; ‘Isimerini’, or solstice, which denotes the equality of day and night in > the middle; and ‘Terini’, or summer in the bottom." > The middle line is for the equinoxes, not a solstice. If it says "Isimerini", then that combines "-merini", referreing to "Day", and something obviously likely to be related to "Iso-" which we all know to mean "same" or "equal". > Ksimerini would in Greek start with Ξ (ksi), but a close look at the > initial, hi-res photo strongly suggests that the first character is X (chi) > Yes, that column of horizontal lines is the Greek capital "Ksee" (as pronounced in English). The lower case would look like a more or less vertical squiggly line. It's pronounced like our English "X". Yes, the Greek letter written as "X", is pronounced like aspirated "k", as in "Loch" or "Achtung". ...and its name "chi", is pronounced in English with that consonant-sound, though we often hear it said as just a "k". I didn't notice the "T" in the word on the Summer-Solstice line. It looked. to me, just like Merine on the top 2 lines, and Erini on the bottom--line. Michael Ossipoff Aprilis 10th, 2020 Aries 22nd 16 F You wrote: , in accordance with what John Davis and John Wilson's wife read. So it seems the names are spelled as follows: XIMEPINH = winter solstice IΣHMEPINH = equinox TEPINH = summer solstice in which X is Greek chi, P is Greek rho, H is Greek eta. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re:
Along each declination-line, "Merine" is written (if, as it seems to me, H is an E). I used to know someone whose 1st language was Greek, and "Mera" means "Day". If the M is absent from the summer solstice line, maybe it got obliterated over the millennia. The declination-lines of course mark special days, and maybe that's all that "Merina" is saying. ...and surely it isn't really necessary to explicitly number the hour-lines. Maybe the user just counts them. Of course the dial is a Hemicycleum, the classical and ancient stationary-dial. It's said to have been introduced by Berosus in Chaldea, in the same century in which the article's dial was made. It seems to me that they said that the Hemicycleum and Hemisphereum were soon imported to and adopted by Greece, and later Rome. I read that the dial surface of both was spherical. Surely that would be a particularly difficult surface to carve accurately, but that's what they say. The Hemicycleum is my favorite stationary dial, and it's the next one that I'll make (but it will be cardboard & paper, or sheet-plastic, and the dial-surface will be cylindrical. Michael Ossipoff Aprilis 9th Aries 21st 16 Th On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 8:01 AM guerbabi ali via sundial < sundial@uni-koeln.de> wrote: > Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die > eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang. > > This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message > text is therefore in an attachment. > > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: guerbabi ali > To: John Davis , "sundial@uni-koeln.de" < > sundial@uni-koeln.de> > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:01:23 + (UTC) > Subject: Denizli sundial > > Dear John and members of the Sundial List, > > > > These are the greek names for the respective solstices and the equinoxes > carved on over 25 ancient sundials (planar and hollow), most of them are in > Sharon Gibbs’ book (from Delos: 1001, 1072, 4001; from Pompeii: 4007; from > Rome: 4008, 4009, 4010; from Ephesos: 3058: etc). > > As for the front face, normally it should be oblique in the plane of the > celestial equator, but it happens that some ancient conical and spherical > sundials are not. Here the image is misleading because the disappearance > of the corners can give the impression that the face is vertical. We > should have a side photo to know what it really is. > > > > Regards > > > > Ali Guerbabi > > 35.547 N / 6.16 E > > > Le jeudi 9 avril 2020 à 08:54:55 UTC+1, John Davis via sundial < > sundial@uni-koeln.de> a écrit : > > > Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die > eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang. > > This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message > text is therefore in an attachment. > Dear Frans, > > The picture that Dan-George pointed us to is excellent and intriguing too. > My reading of the lettering is slightly different from yours. Starting from > the top (presumably the winter solstice), I get > > X I M E P I N H >H M E P I N H >E P IN H > > where the columns represent the spaces between the hour lines. There could > be some misreadings here. It is clearly not the standard Greek system of > using the first letters of their alphabet as numbers but I don’t recognise > the names of the seasons either. Looking through Sharon Gibbs’ book, I > couldn’t find a similar set of inscriptions. Can any classical scholars > help us? > > As a second point, the front face of the marble looks to be vertical in > the photo but I found another view online which seems to show it cut back > at an oblique angle. Both forms of dial are known - which is this? > > Regards, > > John > — > Dr J Davis > Flowton Dials http://www.flowton-dials.co.uk/ > BSS Editor http://sundialsoc.org.uk/publications/the-bss-bulletin/ > > > On 8 Apr 2020, at 18:37, Maes, F.W. wrote: > > Dan-George, thank you for the link! That is a beautiful ancient scaphe > dial. > The article says: "The sundial features ... Greek names of seasons". I can > read a number of characters, which at all three date lines (equinox and > solstices) seem to include MEPINH. What season names are these? > > Keep healthy! > Frans Maes > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:33 PM Roser Raluy wrote: > > Thank you, it looks great! > Roser Raluy > > Missatge de Dan-George Uza del dia dt., 7 > d’abr. 2020 a les 10:12: > > Hello, I've just read about the discovery of an antique sundial in Turkey. > > > https://www.dailysabah.com/life/history/2000-year-old-sundial-unearthed-in-southern-turkeys-denizli > > Best regards, > > -- > Dan-George Uza > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > --
Re: Denizli sundial
A report on: https://indiablooms.com/travel-details/N/1164/2-000-year-old-sundial-recovered-in-turkey-s-anatolia.html says the following: "Inscribed on the dial are the Greek word ‘Ksimerini’, or winter on the upper part; ‘Isimerini’, or solstice, which denotes the equality of day and night in the middle; and ‘Terini’, or summer in the bottom." Ksimerini would in Greek start with Ξ (ksi), but a close look at the initial, hi-res photo strongly suggests that the first character is X (chi), in accordance with what John Davis and John Wilson's wife read. So it seems the names are spelled as follows: XIMEPINH = winter solstice IΣHMEPINH = equinox TEPINH = summer solstice in which X is Greek chi, P is Greek rho, H is Greek eta. A photo further down the article shows clearly that the front is cut away. Best regards, Frans Maes On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 9:54 AM John Davis wrote: > Dear Frans, > > The picture that Dan-George pointed us to is excellent and intriguing too. > My reading of the lettering is slightly different from yours. Starting from > the top (presumably the winter solstice), I get > > X I M E P I N H >H M E P I N H >E P IN H > > where the columns represent the spaces between the hour lines. There could > be some misreadings here. It is clearly not the standard Greek system of > using the first letters of their alphabet as numbers but I don’t recognise > the names of the seasons either. Looking through Sharon Gibbs’ book, I > couldn’t find a similar set of inscriptions. Can any classical scholars > help us? > > As a second point, the front face of the marble looks to be vertical in > the photo but I found another view online which seems to show it cut back > at an oblique angle. Both forms of dial are known - which is this? > > Regards, > > John > — > Dr J Davis > Flowton Dials http://www.flowton-dials.co.uk/ > BSS Editor http://sundialsoc.org.uk/publications/the-bss-bulletin/ > > > On 8 Apr 2020, at 18:37, Maes, F.W. wrote: > > Dan-George, thank you for the link! That is a beautiful ancient scaphe > dial. > The article says: "The sundial features ... Greek names of seasons". I can > read a number of characters, which at all three date lines (equinox and > solstices) seem to include MEPINH. What season names are these? > > Keep healthy! > Frans Maes > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:33 PM Roser Raluy wrote: > >> Thank you, it looks great! >> Roser Raluy >> >> Missatge de Dan-George Uza del dia dt., 7 >> d’abr. 2020 a les 10:12: >> >>> Hello, I've just read about the discovery of an antique sundial in >>> Turkey. >>> >>> >>> https://www.dailysabah.com/life/history/2000-year-old-sundial-unearthed-in-southern-turkeys-denizli >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> -- >>> Dan-George Uza >>> --- >>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial >>> >>> --- >> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial >> >> --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
[no subject]
Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang. This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message text is therefore in an attachment.--- Begin Message --- Dear Johnand members of the Sundial List, These arethe greek names for the respective solstices and the equinoxes carved on over25 ancient sundials (planar and hollow), most of them are in Sharon Gibbs’ book(from Delos: 1001, 1072, 4001; from Pompeii: 4007; from Rome: 4008, 4009, 4010;from Ephesos: 3058: etc). As for thefront face, normally it should be oblique in the plane of thecelestial equator, but it happens that some ancient conical and spherical sundialsare not. Here the image is misleading because the disappearanceof the corners can give the impression that the face is vertical. We should have a side photo to know what it really is. Regards AliGuerbabi 35.547 N /6.16 E Le jeudi 9 avril 2020 à 08:54:55 UTC+1, John Davis via sundial a écrit : Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang. This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message text is therefore in an attachment.Dear Frans, The picture that Dan-George pointed us to is excellent and intriguing too. My reading of the lettering is slightly different from yours. Starting from the top (presumably the winter solstice), I get X I M E P I N H H M E P I N H E P I N H where the columns represent the spaces between the hour lines. There could be some misreadings here. It is clearly not the standard Greek system of using the first letters of their alphabet as numbers but I don’t recognise the names of the seasons either. Looking through Sharon Gibbs’ book, I couldn’t find a similar set of inscriptions. Can any classical scholars help us? As a second point, the front face of the marble looks to be vertical in the photo but I found another view online which seems to show it cut back at an oblique angle. Both forms of dial are known - which is this? Regards, John — Dr J Davis Flowton Dials http://www.flowton-dials.co.uk/ BSS Editor http://sundialsoc.org.uk/publications/the-bss-bulletin/ On 8 Apr 2020, at 18:37, Maes, F.W. wrote: Dan-George, thank you for the link! That is a beautiful ancient scaphe dial.The article says: "The sundial features ... Greek names of seasons". I can read a number of characters, which at all three date lines (equinox and solstices) seem to include MEPINH. What season names are these? Keep healthy! Frans Maes On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:33 PM Roser Raluy wrote: Thank you, it looks great!Roser Raluy Missatge de Dan-George Uza del dia dt., 7 d’abr. 2020 a les 10:12: Hello, I've just read about the discovery of an antique sundial in Turkey. https://www.dailysabah.com/life/history/2000-year-old-sundial-unearthed-in-southern-turkeys-denizli Best regards, -- Dan-George Uza--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- End Message --- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
[no subject]
Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang. This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message text is therefore in an attachment.--- Begin Message --- Dear Dan, I am also intrigued in pinhole sundials, and reflection ones too. I tried to find the ratio between the wall (or floor) distance and the diameter of the sun image on it. Assuming an average sun apparent diameter of 0,5° and a unitary pinhole the ratio is about 114.59. If the ratio is smaller than 114 then fuzziness increases, at the point of loosing the round shape and taking the shape of the mirror. When the ratio is higher the image is sharper. Gianni Ferrari suggested a value for the wall distance of 300-400 times the pinhole diameter, if I remember well. With such numbers the pinhole shape is ininfluent on the image on the wall, which is always round. The general level of illumination of the wall is also important for the final contrast of the light spot. Cheers Francesco FERRO MILONE Turin Inviato da Yahoo Mail su Android--- End Message --- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
[no subject]
Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang. This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message text is therefore in an attachment.--- Begin Message --- Dear Frans, The picture that Dan-George pointed us to is excellent and intriguing too. My reading of the lettering is slightly different from yours. Starting from the top (presumably the winter solstice), I get X I M E P I N H H M E P I N H E P IN H where the columns represent the spaces between the hour lines. There could be some misreadings here. It is clearly not the standard Greek system of using the first letters of their alphabet as numbers but I don’t recognise the names of the seasons either. Looking through Sharon Gibbs’ book, I couldn’t find a similar set of inscriptions. Can any classical scholars help us? As a second point, the front face of the marble looks to be vertical in the photo but I found another view online which seems to show it cut back at an oblique angle. Both forms of dial are known - which is this? Regards, John — Dr J Davis Flowton Dials http://www.flowton-dials.co.uk/ BSS Editor http://sundialsoc.org.uk/publications/the-bss-bulletin/ > On 8 Apr 2020, at 18:37, Maes, F.W. wrote: > > Dan-George, thank you for the link! That is a beautiful ancient scaphe dial. > The article says: "The sundial features ... Greek names of seasons". I can > read a number of characters, which at all three date lines (equinox and > solstices) seem to include MEPINH. What season names are these? > > Keep healthy! > Frans Maes > >> On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:33 PM Roser Raluy wrote: >> Thank you, it looks great! >> Roser Raluy >> >> Missatge de Dan-George Uza del dia dt., 7 d’abr. >> 2020 a les 10:12: >>> Hello, I've just read about the discovery of an antique sundial in Turkey. >>> >>> https://www.dailysabah.com/life/history/2000-year-old-sundial-unearthed-in-southern-turkeys-denizli >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> -- >>> Dan-George Uza >>> --- >>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial >>> >> --- >> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial >> > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > --- End Message --- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
[no subject]
Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang. This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message text is therefore in an attachment.--- Begin Message --- Dear Frans, The picture that Dan-George pointed us to is excellent and intriguing too. My reading of the lettering is slightly different from yours. Starting from the top (presumably the winter solstice), I get X I M E P I N H H M E P I N H E P IN H where the columns represent the spaces between the hour lines. There could be some misreadings here. It is clearly not the standard Greek system of using the first letters of their alphabet as numbers but I don’t recognise the names of the seasons either. Looking through Sharon Gibbs’ book, I couldn’t find a similar set of inscriptions. Can any classical scholars help us? As a second point, the front face of the marble looks to be vertical in the photo but I found another view online which seems to show it cut back at an oblique angle. Both forms of dial are known - which is this? Regards, John — Dr J Davis Flowton Dials http://www.flowton-dials.co.uk/ BSS Editor http://sundialsoc.org.uk/publications/the-bss-bulletin/ > On 8 Apr 2020, at 18:37, Maes, F.W. wrote: > > Dan-George, thank you for the link! That is a beautiful ancient scaphe dial. > The article says: "The sundial features ... Greek names of seasons". I can > read a number of characters, which at all three date lines (equinox and > solstices) seem to include MEPINH. What season names are these? > > Keep healthy! > Frans Maes > >> On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:33 PM Roser Raluy wrote: >> Thank you, it looks great! >> Roser Raluy >> >> Missatge de Dan-George Uza del dia dt., 7 d’abr. >> 2020 a les 10:12: >>> Hello, I've just read about the discovery of an antique sundial in Turkey. >>> >>> https://www.dailysabah.com/life/history/2000-year-old-sundial-unearthed-in-southern-turkeys-denizli >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> -- >>> Dan-George Uza >>> --- >>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial >>> >> --- >> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial >> > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > --- End Message --- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
