Re: Inquiry - Part 1
Hi Steve, Any chance of getting a copy of or where to get it. I found a 1737 publication /Regle artificielle du temps /by Henry Sully, an English clockmaker in Paris and clockmaker to the Duc D'Orleans, which has fairly extensive instructions on how to regulate clocks using either a sundial or by observing transits of stars Would be interesting to see how they did it. Regards, Roderick Wall. - Reply message - From: "Steve Lelievre" <steve.lelievre.can...@gmail.com> To: "Frank King" <f...@cl.cam.ac.uk> Cc: "sundial@uni-koeln.de" <sundial@uni-koeln.de> Subject: Inquiry - Part 1 Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2017 1:39 AM Dear Frank, You're right - the timeline casts doubt on the premise of the enquiry. Well spotted! For anyone who's interested, here's a snippet from/Enclopaedia Britannica/ (7th ed.) "The first [Equation Clock] was made about the year 1693 by Mr Joseph Williamson, an English artist then working for Mr Daniel Quare watchmaker in London, who sold it to go to Charles II King of Spain about the year 1699. It went 400 days with one winding and had two fixed and two movable circles for the hands to mark the time on : the former giving the hours and minutes of mean time; and the latter, which were concentric with the former, apparent time. [...] Father Alexandre, a Benedictine, had laid a project of this sort before the Academy of Sciences in 1698 which is mentioned in their Memoirs for 1725 but nothing of the kind seems to have been practised in France till a clock, the equation work of which scarcely differed from Williamson's, was made by Lebon in 1717. This was soon after followed by another by Leroy." I found a 1737 publication /Regle artificielle du temps /by Henry Sully, an English clockmaker in Paris and clockmaker to the Duc D'Orleans, which has fairly extensive instructions on how to regulate clocks using either a sundial or by observing transits of stars, and how to convert a mean time reading to solar time by use of Equation of Time tables. I didn't notice any mention of equation clocks when I looked through Sully's treatise, so I assume they remained rather rare even 20 years after Le Bon and Le Roy had introduced them. Thanks to everyone who has responded to my enquiries. Steve On 2017-04-26 5:44 AM, Frank King wrote: > Dear Steve, > > I have read the replies to your enquiry and I > am not yet convinced by the responses to either > Part 1 or Part 2! > > I'll restrict myself to Part 1, where it is > asserted... > > ...that Louis XIV issued some kind of edict > that all clocks manufactured in France were > to be Equation Clocks (that is, clocks that > showed solar time through a mechanical > Equation of Time 'reversal' adjustment). > > One point of note is that Louis XIV reigned > from 1643 to 1715 so this edict must have been > sometime in those 72 years. > > Roderick Wall's reference... > > https://books.google.com.au/books?id=d1oUQAAJ=PA462=PA462=all+clo > cks+manufactured+in+France+were+to+be+Equation+Clocks=bl=ih4yWalJ9E& > sig=6u-sTxpfyTqZNPxRjfbAn7Q_ECk=en=X=0ahUKEwjW9oruqrbTAhVEGJQKHU-NDrs > Q6AEIIzAD#v=onepage=all%20clocks%20manufactured%20in%20France%20were%20to%20b > e%20Equation%20Clocks=false > > says on page 462... > > Equation clocks were first made in France, > about the year 1717, by Le Bon and Le Roy. > > It seems unlikely that Louis XIV could have > insisted on something that didn't exist in > his time. > > As king, Louis XIV no doubt had up-market > clocks in his palaces and he could simply > have instructed his clock-keepers to set > the clocks using a convenient sundial. > > The solar day typically differs from 24 modern > hours by a small fraction of a minute and it > is unlikely that the clocks early in his reign > kept time to anything like that precision. > Frequent setting to sundial time would have > been required. > > When he upgraded to pendulum clocks he may > have noticed that his clock-keepers had > changed their procedures... > > I think the first EoT tables used for > "correcting" clocks were published by > Huygens in 1665 and better tables were > published by Flamsteed about 7 years > later. > > Enthusiastic clock-keepers may have used > these tables and the king may not have > approved. The only edict that he need > have issued would have been of the form: > >"Do not use the equation of time when > setting the clocks." > > I know how to dig out ancient English Acts > of Parliament but I do not know how to find > old French edicts. > > Please can someone nail down this edict? > > Until I can read this edict in 17th century > French, I shall deem this to be another > example of a much-repeated falsehood > gaining widespread acceptance. > > Now to ponder part 2! > > Frank > > Frank H. King > Cambridge, U.K. > >--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Inquiry - Part 1
Dear Frank, You're right - the timeline casts doubt on the premise of the enquiry. Well spotted! For anyone who's interested, here's a snippet from/Enclopaedia Britannica/ (7th ed.) "The first [Equation Clock] was made about the year 1693 by Mr Joseph Williamson, an English artist then working for Mr Daniel Quare watchmaker in London, who sold it to go to Charles II King of Spain about the year 1699. It went 400 days with one winding and had two fixed and two movable circles for the hands to mark the time on : the former giving the hours and minutes of mean time; and the latter, which were concentric with the former, apparent time. [...] Father Alexandre, a Benedictine, had laid a project of this sort before the Academy of Sciences in 1698 which is mentioned in their Memoirs for 1725 but nothing of the kind seems to have been practised in France till a clock, the equation work of which scarcely differed from Williamson's, was made by Lebon in 1717. This was soon after followed by another by Leroy." I found a 1737 publication /Regle artificielle du temps /by Henry Sully, an English clockmaker in Paris and clockmaker to the Duc D'Orleans, which has fairly extensive instructions on how to regulate clocks using either a sundial or by observing transits of stars, and how to convert a mean time reading to solar time by use of Equation of Time tables. I didn't notice any mention of equation clocks when I looked through Sully's treatise, so I assume they remained rather rare even 20 years after Le Bon and Le Roy had introduced them. Thanks to everyone who has responded to my enquiries. Steve On 2017-04-26 5:44 AM, Frank King wrote: Dear Steve, I have read the replies to your enquiry and I am not yet convinced by the responses to either Part 1 or Part 2! I'll restrict myself to Part 1, where it is asserted... ...that Louis XIV issued some kind of edict that all clocks manufactured in France were to be Equation Clocks (that is, clocks that showed solar time through a mechanical Equation of Time 'reversal' adjustment). One point of note is that Louis XIV reigned from 1643 to 1715 so this edict must have been sometime in those 72 years. Roderick Wall's reference... https://books.google.com.au/books?id=d1oUQAAJ=PA462=PA462=all+clo cks+manufactured+in+France+were+to+be+Equation+Clocks=bl=ih4yWalJ9E& sig=6u-sTxpfyTqZNPxRjfbAn7Q_ECk=en=X=0ahUKEwjW9oruqrbTAhVEGJQKHU-NDrs Q6AEIIzAD#v=onepage=all%20clocks%20manufactured%20in%20France%20were%20to%20b e%20Equation%20Clocks=false says on page 462... Equation clocks were first made in France, about the year 1717, by Le Bon and Le Roy. It seems unlikely that Louis XIV could have insisted on something that didn't exist in his time. As king, Louis XIV no doubt had up-market clocks in his palaces and he could simply have instructed his clock-keepers to set the clocks using a convenient sundial. The solar day typically differs from 24 modern hours by a small fraction of a minute and it is unlikely that the clocks early in his reign kept time to anything like that precision. Frequent setting to sundial time would have been required. When he upgraded to pendulum clocks he may have noticed that his clock-keepers had changed their procedures... I think the first EoT tables used for "correcting" clocks were published by Huygens in 1665 and better tables were published by Flamsteed about 7 years later. Enthusiastic clock-keepers may have used these tables and the king may not have approved. The only edict that he need have issued would have been of the form: "Do not use the equation of time when setting the clocks." I know how to dig out ancient English Acts of Parliament but I do not know how to find old French edicts. Please can someone nail down this edict? Until I can read this edict in 17th century French, I shall deem this to be another example of a much-repeated falsehood gaining widespread acceptance. Now to ponder part 2! Frank Frank H. King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Inquiry - Part 2
Hi all, This link indicates when the telegraph was 1st perfected. 1837 Cook and Wheatstone in England. http://www.persee.fr/doc/flux_1154-2721_1993_num_9_11_939 Regards, Roderick Wall. - Reply message - From: "Frank King" <f...@cl.cam.ac.uk> To: "Steve Lelievre" <steve.lelievre.can...@gmail.com> Cc: "sundial@uni-koeln.de" <sundial@uni-koeln.de> Subject: Inquiry - Part 2 Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2017 10:46 PM Dear Steve, Part 2 of your enquiry asserted that... ...throughout the 19th century... the French railways system used heliochronometers installed at each station for daily calibration of station clocks? Again, this is a good story but I simply cannot see why this would be true... Just for a start, "throughout the 19th century" cannot be right. The railways were not introduced to France until the late 1820s. High-quality French chronometers had been around since the 1760s with Le Roy being the leading maker. The early railways could have distributed time using these, just as happened in England. The Paris Observatory was never far behind Greenwich in terms of tracking time and could have provided definitive railway time in France. In England, the first railway to adopt the electric telegraph was the Great Western Railway in 1839 and this provided another way of distributing time. Why would the French railways have used heliochronometers? That said, it is not hard to find references to this practice. For example, in "Sundials: History, Theory and Practice" by Rene R.J. Rohr. Take a look at: https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0486151700 On page 16 we see he writes: ...this instrument [heliochronometer] was used into the twentieth century by some networks of the French railways for uniformity in the setting of the station clocks. I can just about believe that an eccentric station master might have set the station clock via a heliochronometer but train dispatchers and signalmen and others who actually implemented the timetable would have had company watches in their waistcoats. These were set by more reliable means. On page 17 you see a drawing of a "heliochronometer" which is just a simple semi-equatorial dial with no obvious means for longitude correction never mind EoT. This is not my idea of a heliochronometer. Please can someone find a contemporary account of a French stationmaster describing his use of a heliochronometer. Until I can read this in French, I shall deem the account to be yet another example of a much-repeated falsehood that has gained widespread acceptance. I should be delighted to be proved wrong on both matters! Frank Frank H. King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Inquiry - Part 2
Hi Frank and Steve, This link is interesting on early telegraph systems in France. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22909590 Roderick Wall. - Reply message - From: "Frank King" <f...@cl.cam.ac.uk> To: "Steve Lelievre" <steve.lelievre.can...@gmail.com> Cc: "sundial@uni-koeln.de" <sundial@uni-koeln.de> Subject: Inquiry - Part 2 Date: Wed, Apr 26, 2017 10:46 PM Dear Steve, Part 2 of your enquiry asserted that... ...throughout the 19th century... the French railways system used heliochronometers installed at each station for daily calibration of station clocks? Again, this is a good story but I simply cannot see why this would be true... Just for a start, "throughout the 19th century" cannot be right. The railways were not introduced to France until the late 1820s. High-quality French chronometers had been around since the 1760s with Le Roy being the leading maker. The early railways could have distributed time using these, just as happened in England. The Paris Observatory was never far behind Greenwich in terms of tracking time and could have provided definitive railway time in France. In England, the first railway to adopt the electric telegraph was the Great Western Railway in 1839 and this provided another way of distributing time. Why would the French railways have used heliochronometers? That said, it is not hard to find references to this practice. For example, in "Sundials: History, Theory and Practice" by Rene R.J. Rohr. Take a look at: https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0486151700 On page 16 we see he writes: ...this instrument [heliochronometer] was used into the twentieth century by some networks of the French railways for uniformity in the setting of the station clocks. I can just about believe that an eccentric station master might have set the station clock via a heliochronometer but train dispatchers and signalmen and others who actually implemented the timetable would have had company watches in their waistcoats. These were set by more reliable means. On page 17 you see a drawing of a "heliochronometer" which is just a simple semi-equatorial dial with no obvious means for longitude correction never mind EoT. This is not my idea of a heliochronometer. Please can someone find a contemporary account of a French stationmaster describing his use of a heliochronometer. Until I can read this in French, I shall deem the account to be yet another example of a much-repeated falsehood that has gained widespread acceptance. I should be delighted to be proved wrong on both matters! Frank Frank H. King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Inquiry - Part 2
Dear Steve, Part 2 of your enquiry asserted that... ...throughout the 19th century... the French railways system used heliochronometers installed at each station for daily calibration of station clocks? Again, this is a good story but I simply cannot see why this would be true... Just for a start, "throughout the 19th century" cannot be right. The railways were not introduced to France until the late 1820s. High-quality French chronometers had been around since the 1760s with Le Roy being the leading maker. The early railways could have distributed time using these, just as happened in England. The Paris Observatory was never far behind Greenwich in terms of tracking time and could have provided definitive railway time in France. In England, the first railway to adopt the electric telegraph was the Great Western Railway in 1839 and this provided another way of distributing time. Why would the French railways have used heliochronometers? That said, it is not hard to find references to this practice. For example, in "Sundials: History, Theory and Practice" by Rene R.J. Rohr. Take a look at: https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0486151700 On page 16 we see he writes: ...this instrument [heliochronometer] was used into the twentieth century by some networks of the French railways for uniformity in the setting of the station clocks. I can just about believe that an eccentric station master might have set the station clock via a heliochronometer but train dispatchers and signalmen and others who actually implemented the timetable would have had company watches in their waistcoats. These were set by more reliable means. On page 17 you see a drawing of a "heliochronometer" which is just a simple semi-equatorial dial with no obvious means for longitude correction never mind EoT. This is not my idea of a heliochronometer. Please can someone find a contemporary account of a French stationmaster describing his use of a heliochronometer. Until I can read this in French, I shall deem the account to be yet another example of a much-repeated falsehood that has gained widespread acceptance. I should be delighted to be proved wrong on both matters! Frank Frank H. King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Inquiry - Part 1
Dear Steve, I have read the replies to your enquiry and I am not yet convinced by the responses to either Part 1 or Part 2! I'll restrict myself to Part 1, where it is asserted... ...that Louis XIV issued some kind of edict that all clocks manufactured in France were to be Equation Clocks (that is, clocks that showed solar time through a mechanical Equation of Time 'reversal' adjustment). One point of note is that Louis XIV reigned from 1643 to 1715 so this edict must have been sometime in those 72 years. Roderick Wall's reference... https://books.google.com.au/books?id=d1oUQAAJ=PA462=PA462=all+clo cks+manufactured+in+France+were+to+be+Equation+Clocks=bl=ih4yWalJ9E& sig=6u-sTxpfyTqZNPxRjfbAn7Q_ECk=en=X=0ahUKEwjW9oruqrbTAhVEGJQKHU-NDrs Q6AEIIzAD#v=onepage=all%20clocks%20manufactured%20in%20France%20were%20to%20b e%20Equation%20Clocks=false says on page 462... Equation clocks were first made in France, about the year 1717, by Le Bon and Le Roy. It seems unlikely that Louis XIV could have insisted on something that didn't exist in his time. As king, Louis XIV no doubt had up-market clocks in his palaces and he could simply have instructed his clock-keepers to set the clocks using a convenient sundial. The solar day typically differs from 24 modern hours by a small fraction of a minute and it is unlikely that the clocks early in his reign kept time to anything like that precision. Frequent setting to sundial time would have been required. When he upgraded to pendulum clocks he may have noticed that his clock-keepers had changed their procedures... I think the first EoT tables used for "correcting" clocks were published by Huygens in 1665 and better tables were published by Flamsteed about 7 years later. Enthusiastic clock-keepers may have used these tables and the king may not have approved. The only edict that he need have issued would have been of the form: "Do not use the equation of time when setting the clocks." I know how to dig out ancient English Acts of Parliament but I do not know how to find old French edicts. Please can someone nail down this edict? Until I can read this edict in 17th century French, I shall deem this to be another example of a much-repeated falsehood gaining widespread acceptance. Now to ponder part 2! Frank Frank H. King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Inquiry
Steve, I know that the first statement is accurate. One reference is a paper written by Andrée de Gotteland, now deceased, in Revue #27 of the Association Française des Amateurs d'Horlogerie Ancienne. Mme Gotteland quotes a newspaper (Mercure de France) to the effect that clockmakers are exposed to criticism by the public that their clocks are not accurate because they disagree with the local sundial which tells Civil (legal) time. The association of clockmakers apparently adopted the motto: "Solis mendaces arguit horas" (the Sun's hours are deceptive). This paper was also cited in Christopher Daniel's excellent and definitive monograph on the Equation of Time and invention of the Analemma, published in the BSS volume 17. Jack Aubert -Original Message- From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Steve Lelievre Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 3:45 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Inquiry Hi, I've got a two part inquiry from a third party: 1. Is it true that Louis XIV issued some kind of edict that all clocks manufactured in France were to be Equation Clocks (that is, clocks that showed solar time through a mechanical Equation of Time 'reversal' adjustment). References sought. 2. Can anyone confirm that throughout the 19th centuary (and perhaps into the early 20th centuary?), the French railways system used heliochronometers installed at each station for daily calibration of station clocks? Again, references sought. Thanks, Steve --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Inquiry
Hi Steve, Here is a link which has some interesting history information about Equation Clocks. Roderick Wall. https://books.google.com.au/books?id=d1oUQAAJ=PA462=PA462=all+clocks+manufactured+in+France+were+to+be+Equation+Clocks=bl=ih4yWalJ9E=6u-sTxpfyTqZNPxRjfbAn7Q_ECk=en=X=0ahUKEwjW9oruqrbTAhVEGJQKHU-NDrsQ6AEIIzAD#v=onepage=all%20clocks%20manufactured%20in%20France%20were%20to%20be%20Equation%20Clocks=false - Reply message - From: "Steve Lelievre" <steve.lelievre.can...@gmail.com> To: "sundial@uni-koeln.de" <sundial@uni-koeln.de> Subject: Inquiry Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2017 5:44 AM Hi, I've got a two part inquiry from a third party: 1. Is it true that Louis XIV issued some kind of edict that all clocks manufactured in France were to be Equation Clocks (that is, clocks that showed solar time through a mechanical Equation of Time 'reversal' adjustment). References sought. 2. Can anyone confirm that throughout the 19th centuary (and perhaps into the early 20th centuary?), the French railways system used heliochronometers installed at each station for daily calibration of station clocks? Again, references sought. Thanks, Steve --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Inquiry
Hi, I've got a two part inquiry from a third party: 1. Is it true that Louis XIV issued some kind of edict that all clocks manufactured in France were to be Equation Clocks (that is, clocks that showed solar time through a mechanical Equation of Time 'reversal' adjustment). References sought. 2. Can anyone confirm that throughout the 19th centuary (and perhaps into the early 20th centuary?), the French railways system used heliochronometers installed at each station for daily calibration of station clocks? Again, references sought. Thanks, Steve --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Inquiry
Hello from Australia. Your email address was kindly given to me by 'Sky Telescope' of the USA. I'm writing to ask you about Sundials, and the particular situation I'm in here, that you may be able to give me some advise. I have tried to construct a sundial, with the help of a computer program which was published in S T December 1987, entitled 'Sundials on Walls. I saw oe of these when I visited the Madonna Del Sasso, in Locarno Ticino Switzerland, a few years ago. The problem I have is that where I live, the latitude is 17.6 South. We have the sun crossing our latitude mid-November, on it's journey south to the Tropic of Capricorn, and then on it's return it crosses our latitude again at the end of January. How would you build a wall sundial for that course of events. I imagine the same problems would happen for a flat one. It seems to me that you have some sort of Club going, and I would be interested in that. Would you be able to put me onto to someone with whom I can discuss these matters over email. From the information sent to me by S T, I'm supposed to put unsubscribe sundial in the body of message. Here it is, yet I don't know what that means for you. Maybe you can let me know. It seems you people are based in Germany. I'm from there, been over here some 40 years now. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Kind regards, Amit E. (Amit) Klotz ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
