Re: Interesting sundial
Hi Mike, I saw a small screw attaching the disc and assumed it allowed a longitude adjustment. If it is just an attaching screw, perhaps the owner could drill and tap a hole suitable for their longitude and even DST. The EQT graph is universal with no longitude offset. I believe the similar dials that Tony made for his grandkids were designed to be universal. Regards, Roger From: jmikes...@ntlworld.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 1:27 PM To: R Wall ml ; John Carmichael ; Sundial Mailing List Subject: Re: Interesting sundial I’ve always thought that the “summer” side of dials like this should show daylight saving time. Unfortunately, the authorities refuse to change the clocks at each equinox, so there would be some offset. BTW, I have one of these “Tony Moss equatorials” and mine is adjustable for latitude, but not longitude as someone suggested. Mike Shaw 53º 22' North 03º 02' West www.wiz.to/sundials No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6058 - Release Date: 01/25/13 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6056 - Release Date: 01/25/13 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial
Hi Roderick, Was it perhaps an Erickson Polar Equatorial Dial that you had in mind? See one example in Denver, Colorado, at: www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/exo/sundials/co/denver/cranmer/index.html The NASS registry lists about 12 dials of this type. Best regards, Frans Maes On 26-1-2013 4:50, R Wall ml wrote: Hi all, That reminds me, I do remember seeing somewhere a photo of a stone disk sundial. With a steel pole through the stone disk that also held the disk at the correct angle. Think it was a Chinese sundial. Now where did I see that? Roderick Wall. From: Dave Bell Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 1:38 PM To: 'Douglas Vogt' ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: RE: Interesting sundial I’m sure Tony Moss would be happy to explain it, Douglas! In short, it’s an Equatorial dial, as I recall. The dial plane is parallel to the Earth’s equator, and the little stubs of gnomons are parallel to the Earth’s axis. One face is illuminated in the Summer, the other in Winter. Dave From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Douglas Vogt Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 10:31 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Interesting sundial In a previous post (24 Jan. 2013), I thought a sundial in a photo was neat and wondered if there were plans for it. As a relative newcomer, I don't even know what kind it is. That post was apparently completely misinterpreted by an irritable being as something having to do more with those things that run on steel rails and not sundials. I merely responded to the subject line. My post and the response caused further OTs, for which I apologize. In any case, it is a neat sundial and I'd like to know more about it if the designer is not too P.O.d to respond. From: John Carmichael jlcarmich...@comcast.net To: 'jim senato' j...@kcpc.com; sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 12:32 AM Subject: RE: sundial Digest, Vol 85, Issue 28 Hello Mr. Senato: Do we know you? I searched my inbox archive and see that you have only written one letter previously to the Sundial List back in 2011. In that letter you talk about FED EX and not sundials. See copy of your letter below. Let me respectfully clue you in on a few things… I have been on this mailing list for about 15 years I think, and as far as I know, there is no rule that we must only respond to the “subject at hand”. If this were the case, then no new subjects would ever appear. Often, several sundial-related subjects are discussed on the same day. However, since it is the Sundial List, most of us do try to limit our subjects to sundial related matter. My last letter was obviously about a sundial (a famous one by Tony Moss at that), and it included the best existing photos of that sundial as well as a photo of one of America’s only stained glass sundials. It was NOT about a “train set”. I don’t think I broke any Sundial List rules, and lots of people wrote to tell me they liked seeing the sundial photographs. The courteous thing for you to do would be to simply ignore letters that don’t interest you. We all do that. But none of us EVER tells anyone on the list to shut up. How rude was that! Think before you type. Sincerely, “that guy” p.s. You might want to do a grammar and spelling check on your letters before you send them. I’d be embarrassed if I were you. They make you look ignorant and uneducated. Letter from Jim Senato sent on 10/29/1011 let these people know to call fedex next time why would you actually go as far as filling out a form call if you arent surewouldnt you know if you were tracking a package without filling out somethingtell them to use some common sense this is not a big threat --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial
Hi Frans, That's a nice sundial. It looks like there are a few dials of this type if the NASS registry list 12 sundials of this type. Thanks for the link, Roderick. -Original Message- From: Frans W. Maes Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 10:00 PM To: R Wall ml Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Interesting sundial Hi Roderick, Was it perhaps an Erickson Polar Equatorial Dial that you had in mind? See one example in Denver, Colorado, at: www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/exo/sundials/co/denver/cranmer/index.html The NASS registry lists about 12 dials of this type. Best regards, Frans Maes On 26-1-2013 4:50, R Wall ml wrote: Hi all, That reminds me, I do remember seeing somewhere a photo of a stone disk sundial. With a steel pole through the stone disk that also held the disk at the correct angle. Think it was a Chinese sundial. Now where did I see that? Roderick Wall. From: Dave Bell Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 1:38 PM To: 'Douglas Vogt' ; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: RE: Interesting sundial I’m sure Tony Moss would be happy to explain it, Douglas! In short, it’s an Equatorial dial, as I recall. The dial plane is parallel to the Earth’s equator, and the little stubs of gnomons are parallel to the Earth’s axis. One face is illuminated in the Summer, the other in Winter. Dave From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Douglas Vogt Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 10:31 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Interesting sundial In a previous post (24 Jan. 2013), I thought a sundial in a photo was neat and wondered if there were plans for it. As a relative newcomer, I don't even know what kind it is. That post was apparently completely misinterpreted by an irritable being as something having to do more with those things that run on steel rails and not sundials. I merely responded to the subject line. My post and the response caused further OTs, for which I apologize. In any case, it is a neat sundial and I'd like to know more about it if the designer is not too P.O.d to respond. From: John Carmichael jlcarmich...@comcast.net To: 'jim senato' j...@kcpc.com; sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 12:32 AM Subject: RE: sundial Digest, Vol 85, Issue 28 Hello Mr. Senato: Do we know you? I searched my inbox archive and see that you have only written one letter previously to the Sundial List back in 2011. In that letter you talk about FED EX and not sundials. See copy of your letter below. Let me respectfully clue you in on a few things… I have been on this mailing list for about 15 years I think, and as far as I know, there is no rule that we must only respond to the “subject at hand”. If this were the case, then no new subjects would ever appear. Often, several sundial-related subjects are discussed on the same day. However, since it is the Sundial List, most of us do try to limit our subjects to sundial related matter. My last letter was obviously about a sundial (a famous one by Tony Moss at that), and it included the best existing photos of that sundial as well as a photo of one of America’s only stained glass sundials. It was NOT about a “train set”. I don’t think I broke any Sundial List rules, and lots of people wrote to tell me they liked seeing the sundial photographs. The courteous thing for you to do would be to simply ignore letters that don’t interest you. We all do that. But none of us EVER tells anyone on the list to shut up. How rude was that! Think before you type. Sincerely, “that guy” p.s. You might want to do a grammar and spelling check on your letters before you send them. I’d be embarrassed if I were you. They make you look ignorant and uneducated. Letter from Jim Senato sent on 10/29/1011 let these people know to call fedex next time why would you actually go as far as filling out a form call if you arent surewouldnt you know if you were tracking a package without filling out somethingtell them to use some common sense this is not a big threat --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6053 - Release Date: 01/23/13 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial
Dear Douglas, As Roger Bailey suggests, your message indeed merits a response. You have now had plenty of explanation from Roger and indeed from Tony Moss who designed and made this exquisite monumental sundial! Roger notes that it has an equatorial disk without explaining that this term refers to the simple fact that the disc (U.K. spelling here!) is parallel to the Earth's Equator. If this dial were actually on the Equator, the disc would be in a vertical west-east plane. The gnomon is perpendicular to the plane of the disc and would be horizontal and aligned north-south. As with any polar-oriented gnomon it is parallel to the Earth's axis. I don't know of any such sundial actually on the equator but I know of a big one about 5 degrees north of the equator at: http://www.forestexplorers.com/msia/penang/sundial Scroll down for more pictures. As with the Railway Sundial, it leans to the south but, in this case, only just over 5 degrees. The gnomon, accordingly, slopes downwards to the south by this angle. Also, as with John Carmichael's photographs, we are looking at the south side where the hour numbers go round anti-clockwise. There the similarities end. John's dial has 12 o'clock at bottom dead centre which corresponds to local sun noon. The Penang dial has twenty-past-one at bottom dead centre, almost as though the dial has been rolled 20 degrees from its proper position. This needs a bit of explanation: The reference longitude for the time zone used in Penang is 120 degrees east (8 hours ahead of Greenwich) even though Penang is only 100 degrees east. MAD! But it explains why the dial has been rolled 20 degrees out of true. To my mind, the Railway Dial is ever so much more elegant. It is beautifully made, it is elegantly mounted, the lettering is clear and it has a nice stained glass sundial to keep it company! The Penang dial looks as though it was assembled from material salvaged from a scrap yard and has been propped up with scaffolding poles. Moreover it appears to be floodlit at night. It is very big, 7.1m in diameter. Next to John's Railway this would be 560 feet in diameter. I await the subject line: Man fails to climb 560' Sundial Frank King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial
I’ve always thought that the “summer” side of dials like this should show daylight saving time. Unfortunately, the authorities refuse to change the clocks at each equinox, so there would be some offset. BTW, I have one of these “Tony Moss equatorials” and mine is adjustable for latitude, but not longitude as someone suggested. Mike Shaw 53º 22' North 03º 02' West www.wiz.to/sundials - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6058 - Release Date: 01/25/13 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Interesting sundial
Here is my take on this type of sundial. Easy to make and use - and economical. to boot. http://www.twigsdigs.com/sundials/eq/eq.html --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial
Hi, Though it's impractically large (c 3m in diameter) the design of the equatorial sundial at Jaipur (properly: the Nare Valaya Yantra) makes it the easiest one to read of all those I've seen. Here's a tiny snippet from a postcard (can't lay my hands on my photo at the moment). In essence, the two faces are stretched out to form a cylinder mounted at roughly head height. Two other photos giving greater detail are available at: http://karuneshjohri.com/travel/jantar-mantar-jaipur/ and http://cadrans-solaires.pagesperso-orange.fr/monde/jaipur/jaipur_uk.html best wishes, Peter -- Peter Mayer Politics Department The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005 Ph : +61 8 8313 5609 Fax : +61 8 8313 3443 e-mail: peter.ma...@adelaide.edu.au CRICOS Provider Number 00123M --- This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains information that may be confidential and/or copyright. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender by reply email and immediately delete this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. No representation is made that this email or any attachments are free of viruses. Virus scanning is recommended and is the responsibility of the recipient. attachment: Jaipur Equatorial Dial 2.jpg--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Interesting sundial
In a previous post (24 Jan. 2013), I thought a sundial in a photo was neat and wondered if there were plans for it. As a relative newcomer, I don't even know what kind it is. That post was apparently completely misinterpreted by an irritable being as something having to do more with those things that run on steel rails and not sundials. I merely responded to the subject line. My post and the response caused further OTs, for which I apologize. In any case, it is a neat sundial and I'd like to know more about it if the designer is not too P.O.d to respond. From: John Carmichael jlcarmich...@comcast.net To: 'jim senato' j...@kcpc.com; sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 12:32 AM Subject: RE: sundial Digest, Vol 85, Issue 28 Hello Mr. Senato: Do we know you? I searched my inbox archive and see that you have only written one letter previously to the Sundial List back in 2011. In that letter you talk about FED EX and not sundials. See copy of your letter below. Let me respectfully clue you in on a few things… I have been on this mailing list for about 15 years I think, and as far as I know, there is no rule that we must only respond to the “subject at hand”. If this were the case, then no new subjects would ever appear. Often, several sundial-related subjects are discussed on the same day. However, since it is the Sundial List, most of us do try to limit our subjects to sundial related matter. My last letter was obviously about a sundial (a famous one by Tony Moss at that), and it included the best existing photos of that sundial as well as a photo of one of America’s only stained glass sundials. It was NOT about a “train set”. I don’t think I broke any Sundial List rules, and lots of people wrote to tell me they liked seeing the sundial photographs. The courteous thing for you to do would be to simply ignore letters that don’t interest you. We all do that. But none of us EVER tells anyone on the list to shut up. How rude was that! Think before you type. Sincerely, “that guy” p.s. You might want to do a grammar and spelling check on your letters before you send them. I’d be embarrassed if I were you. They make you look ignorant and uneducated. Letter from Jim Senato sent on 10/29/1011 let these people know to call fedex next time why would you actually go as far as filling out a form call if you arent sure wouldnt you know if you were tracking a package without filling out something tell them to use some common sense this is not a big threat -- Jim Senato Kansas City Personal Computers 7106 Larsen Shawnee, KS 66203 913 438 5272 John L. Carmichael Sundial Sculptures 925 E. Foothills Dr. Tucson AZ 85718-4716 USA Tel: 520-6961709 Email: jlcarmich...@comcast.net My Websites: (business) Sundial Sculptures: http://www.sundialsculptures.com (educational) Chinook Trail Sundial: http://advanceassociates.com/Sundials/COSprings/ (educational) Earth Sky Equatorial Sundial: http://advanceassociates.com/Sundials/Earth-Sky_Dial/ (educational) My Painted Wall Sundial: http://www.advanceassociates.com/WallDial (educational) Painted Wall Sundials: http://advanceassociates.com/WallDial/PWS_Home.html (educational) Stained Glass Sundials: http://www.stainedglasssundials.com (educational) Sundial Cupolas, Towers Turrets: http://StainedGlassSundials.com/CupolaSundial/index.html From:sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of jim senato Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 6:03 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: sundial Digest, Vol 85, Issue 28 hi do you think we could get past this guys trainset? this is beginning to be a bit of a stretch for the subject at hand. On 1/24/2013 5:00 AM, sundial-requ...@uni-koeln.de wrote: Send sundial mailing list submissions to sundial@uni-koeln.de To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to sundial-requ...@uni-koeln.de You can reach the person managing the list at sundial-ow...@uni-koeln.de When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of sundial digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Man climbs Monumental Railway Sundial (Douglas Vogt) -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 02:15:21 -0800 (PST) From: Douglas Vogt dbv...@yahoo.com To: sundial@uni-koeln.de sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Man climbs Monumental Railway Sundial Message-ID: 1359022521.82454.yahoomail...@web161303.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 That's rather neat. Of course the reason for the climb is the guy has no watch. Are there any plans for that sundial? It looks like something buildable on a small lathe - (a scale model of course!).
Re: Interesting sundial
Hello Douglas, Your original post deserved a response. The sundial has an equatorial disk inscribed on both sides with hour lines at 15° intervals. In the spring and summer, the upper side of the dial is in the sun. In the fall and winter the sun shines on the lower side. On the equinox, the sun lines up exactly with the disc. The gnomon is a pin oriented to the polar axis that sticks out on both sides. The dial is adjustable for latitude and longitude. It is a simple but ancient design, similar to the bronze ring in the Great Hall in Alexandria that determined the length of the solar and stellar years, differing due to precession. This is described in Ptolemy's Almagest, still considered the great book by many of us. This specific sundial is significant as described by John in his original note on 4 Jan. Many years ago, NASS gave me the Sawyer Dialing Prize which was a beautiful and sturdy little brass equatorial dial made by The Great Tony Moss himself. Sadly, it has set on my shady workbench, much loved but unused for all these years. I had no sunny window available and no good place outside- until now! I thought what a great idea! I’ll use my Sawyer Dialing Prize Sundial as a miniature monumental sundial on the railroad. So I glued it on top of a stone pinnacle by the Trolley Station. Looks great and works just fine. Thanks Tony. I am also pleased to own a different custom Lindisfarne Sundial by Tony Moss, a great craftsman, teacher and also a Sawyer Prize winner. As a long time college and friend, again, thanks Tony, This list has been active for about 20 years as a way of sharing our interest in sundials with old friends and new. In general we are quite tolerant and open to sharing information. In 20 years only a couple people have been struck off the list for persistent annoying misbehavior. Let's keep it that way, tolerating the occasional interesting off topic excursions. Regards, as usual, Roger Bailey From: Douglas Vogt Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 10:31 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Interesting sundial In a previous post (24 Jan. 2013), I thought a sundial in a photo was neat and wondered if there were plans for it. As a relative newcomer, I don't even know what kind it is. That post was apparently completely misinterpreted by an irritable being as something having to do more with those things that run on steel rails and not sundials. I merely responded to the subject line. My post and the response caused further OTs, for which I apologize. In any case, it is a neat sundial and I'd like to know more about it if the designer is not too P.O.d to respond. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
An interesting sundial that shows solstices
Astronomy Picture of the Day http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120626.html Bob Terwilliger --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: An interesting sundial that shows solstices
Interesting indeed, but, if the exact time of solstice happens to be at night, it would not show the word? For the text suggests that it's that precise. 2012/6/26 Robert Terwilliger b...@twigsdigs.com Astronomy Picture of the Day ** ** http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120626.html ** ** ** ** Bob Terwilliger --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: An interesting sundial that shows solstices
Dear Bob and all, I presented this French sundial in March 2005 as my preferred one: http://www.cadrans-solaires.fr/cadran-mines.html http://www.cadrans-solaires.fr/cadran-mines-2.html I put some photos to show that you can read solstice or equinox at noon some days before or after the real solstice or equinox and also some minutes before and after noon. And you can't see winter equinoxe anymore because of the trees ! Joël -- http://www.cadrans-solaires.fr/ - Original Message - From: Marcelo To: Robert Terwilliger Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 9:38 PM Subject: Re: An interesting sundial that shows solstices Interesting indeed, but, if the exact time of solstice happens to be at night, it would not show the word? For the text suggests that it's that precise. 2012/6/26 Robert Terwilliger b...@twigsdigs.com Astronomy Picture of the Day http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120626.html Bob Terwilliger --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
Sorry for the late posting, but we were off-line for a week. I agree with Gianni: this seems to be a correct and interesting design. Just a guess: the dots may be led's that show the time also at night. And as Tokushima is less than 0.5° west of the Japanese time zone meridian, this might be civil time (except EoT correction). Best regards, Frans Maes Gianni Ferrari wrote: As others have already written it is a vertical sundial, facing South, with polar style, with its center in the point A of the attached figure. Since the style continues beyond the disk, the part BC of it can work as a polar style of a sundial facing North, with center in B, drawn on the hidden face of the disk. Even if the style BC is very short, being the northern face illuminated only in the extreme hours of the day, the shadows would be long enough to reach the edge of the disk. The northern side of the disk has been being illuminated from 5:30 to 8:00 (around) and from 16:00 to 18:30 The lines of the hours on the northern face would be those drawn on the southern face for the same hours (see the Roger Bailey’s drawing) Does someone know if the hours are written also on the northern face of this sundial? Best Regards Gianni Ferrari --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
As others have already written it is a vertical sundial, facing South, with polar style, with its center in the point A of the attached figure. Since the style continues beyond the disk, the part BC of it can work as a polar style of a sundial facing North, with center in B, drawn on the hidden face of the disk. Even if the style BC is very short, being the northern face illuminated only in the extreme hours of the day, the shadows would be long enough to reach the edge of the disk. The northern side of the disk has been being illuminated from 5:30 to 8:00 (around) and from 16:00 to 18:30 The lines of the hours on the northern face would be those drawn on the southern face for the same hours (see the Roger Bailey’s drawing) Does someone know if the hours are written also on the northern face of this sundial? Best Regards Gianni Ferrari attachment: Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima_F.jpg--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
Hi All, I think it is just a direct south facing vertical dial for a (low) northerly latitude with a circular chapter ring centred at the foot of the gnomon. The hours above the horizontal never get to see a shadow, but they are marked for artistic reasons. Just like the 140mph on my car's speedometer! The hour marks are not, I think, equally spaced at 15 degrees. I think they are correctly spaced for a vertical dial. As for the dots between the hours, I can make no sense of them at all. I'm pretty sure they are not Braille, not Morse Code,... Are they an optical illusion, perhaps? Maybe they are all, in truth, the same colour but just look different in the photo. Chris Lusby Taylor 51.4N 1.3W - Original Message - From: Peter Mayer peter.ma...@adelaide.edu.au To: J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com Cc: Sundial Mailing List sund...@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:36 AM Subject: Re: Interesting sundial in Japan Hi Jim, It is interesting. But in essence, I think, it's really just a variant armillary dial. If you slice away the night hours and replace the gnomon with a pole style, it all looks quite familiar. BTW, since the chapter ring isn't at right angles to the gnomon, I assume that there is a minor error in reading the time... best wishes, Peter Quoting J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com: Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com -- Peter Mayer Politics Department The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005 Ph: +61 8 8303 5606 Fax : +61 8 8303 3443 e-mail: peter.ma...@adelaide.edu.au CRICOS Provider Number 00123M --- This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains information that may be confidential and/or copyright. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender by reply email and immediately delete this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. No representation is made that this email or any attachments are free of viruses. Virus scanning is recommended and is the responsibility of the recipient. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Interesting sundial in Japan
Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this dial is getting more attention than it deserves. It looks to me to be one of those very expensive 'sculptures' made by an artist who really does not understand how a dial works. This dial is not made right - it will not indicate the correct time - the relationship between the plane of hour lines and the gnomon is all wrong. The markings don't appear to me to be braille-like. They are simply 3 pips on the hour and 2 pips every 10 minutes. The fact that some of the pips aren't visible is probably just a trick of lighting in this particular photo. As I said - unless I've missed something here - this is a 'dial' I would pass by without paying it any heed. Fred On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:29 PM, J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com wrote: Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
Hi Fred, If you print a copy of the picture, you can see that the style does at least pass through the line 6 - 18 and 12 - 24, so that is OK. I can't check the angles from the photo, but Tokushima is about 34 North, and the gnomon angle could be that (to the horizontal). As a fairly low-latitude dial (by UK standards anyway!) the range of hour angles will not be as wide as I am used to, but they do look to be narrower at noon and wider at dusk, as they should. I agree the designer may have had more interest in creating a fun sculpture than primarily a dial, but he could nevertheless have got the gnomonics right. Regards, John - Original Message - From: Fred Sawyer fwsaw...@gmail.com To: Sundial List sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: Interesting sundial in Japan Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this dial is getting more attention than it deserves. It looks to me to be one of those very expensive 'sculptures' made by an artist who really does not understand how a dial works. This dial is not made right - it will not indicate the correct time - the relationship between the plane of hour lines and the gnomon is all wrong. The markings don't appear to me to be braille-like. They are simply 3 pips on the hour and 2 pips every 10 minutes. The fact that some of the pips aren't visible is probably just a trick of lighting in this particular photo. As I said - unless I've missed something here - this is a 'dial' I would pass by without paying it any heed. Fred On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:29 PM, J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com wrote: Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
AW: Interesting sundial in Japan
Finally someone came to the point! Well done Fred Sawyer! Reinhold Kriegler * ** *** * ** *** Reinhold R. Kriegler Lat. 53° 6' 52,6 Nord; Long. 8° 53' 52,3 Ost; 48 m ü. N.N. www.ta-dip.de http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCoJHwzzjUfmt=18 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] Im Auftrag von Fred Sawyer Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. April 2009 15:29 An: Sundial List Betreff: Interesting sundial in Japan Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this dial is getting more attention than it deserves. It looks to me to be one of those very expensive 'sculptures' made by an artist who really does not understand how a dial works. This dial is not made right - it will not indicate the correct time - the relationship between the plane of hour lines and the gnomon is all wrong. The markings don't appear to me to be braille-like. They are simply 3 pips on the hour and 2 pips every 10 minutes. The fact that some of the pips aren't visible is probably just a trick of lighting in this particular photo. As I said - unless I've missed something here - this is a 'dial' I would pass by without paying it any heed. Fred On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:29 PM, J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com wrote: Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
In questions like this, I use the engineering philosophy. Don't speculate. Calculate. Attached is a quick drawing of the proper hour lines for a vertical dial for latitude 34º. To me this looks like the hour lines on the vertical ring. Assuming the gnomon is polar and intersects the plane of the dial at the 6 o'clock line, this looks to me to be a gnomonically correct sundial. The top half of the ring is artistic rather than useful but the bottom half looks like a correct vertical sundial with the hour displayed on a ring. Rotate an equatorial ring on the 6 o'clock line to make it vertical and the hour angles on the ring change as shown in the drawing and on the sculpture. In this case I agree with John's analysis. Roger Bailey Walking Shadow Designs -- From: John Foad john.f...@keme.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:01 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de; fwsaw...@aya.yale.edu Subject: Re: Interesting sundial in Japan Hi Fred, If you print a copy of the picture, you can see that the style does at least pass through the line 6 - 18 and 12 - 24, so that is OK. I can't check the angles from the photo, but Tokushima is about 34 North, and the gnomon angle could be that (to the horizontal). As a fairly low-latitude dial (by UK standards anyway!) the range of hour angles will not be as wide as I am used to, but they do look to be narrower at noon and wider at dusk, as they should. I agree the designer may have had more interest in creating a fun sculpture than primarily a dial, but he could nevertheless have got the gnomonics right. Regards, John - Original Message - From: Fred Sawyer fwsaw...@gmail.com To: Sundial List sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: Interesting sundial in Japan Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this dial is getting more attention than it deserves. It looks to me to be one of those very expensive 'sculptures' made by an artist who really does not understand how a dial works. This dial is not made right - it will not indicate the correct time - the relationship between the plane of hour lines and the gnomon is all wrong. The markings don't appear to me to be braille-like. They are simply 3 pips on the hour and 2 pips every 10 minutes. The fact that some of the pips aren't visible is probably just a trick of lighting in this particular photo. As I said - unless I've missed something here - this is a 'dial' I would pass by without paying it any heed. Fred On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:29 PM, J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com wrote: Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.6/2084 - Release Date: 04/28/09 06:15:00 L34V.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
Dear Roger, Thank you for creating this diagram. I'm sure this confirms that the hour lines on the bottom half of the ring are correct. The upper half of the ring seems to have equally-spaced lines. To my mind this spoils the symmetry, but it does not interfere with the functionality of the sundial as the upper half is not used. I agree with Fred that it's a pity the dial surfaces seem to be too reflective to show shadows clearly. Perhaps the dots are not - those between 12:00 and 12:30 seem dark. But so do many of the others, pretty much at random as far as I can see. I am a little surprised that the hour lines are not continued on the inner cylindrical surface, as the shadows there would surely be stronger than on the south-facing ring. Regards Chris - Original Message - From: Roger Bailey rtbai...@telus.net To: John Foad john.f...@keme.co.uk; sundial@uni-koeln.de; fwsaw...@aya.yale.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Interesting sundial in Japan In questions like this, I use the engineering philosophy. Don't speculate. Calculate. Attached is a quick drawing of the proper hour lines for a vertical dial for latitude 34º. To me this looks like the hour lines on the vertical ring. Assuming the gnomon is polar and intersects the plane of the dial at the 6 o'clock line, this looks to me to be a gnomonically correct sundial. The top half of the ring is artistic rather than useful but the bottom half looks like a correct vertical sundial with the hour displayed on a ring. Rotate an equatorial ring on the 6 o'clock line to make it vertical and the hour angles on the ring change as shown in the drawing and on the sculpture. In this case I agree with John's analysis. Roger Bailey Walking Shadow Designs -- From: John Foad john.f...@keme.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:01 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de; fwsaw...@aya.yale.edu Subject: Re: Interesting sundial in Japan Hi Fred, If you print a copy of the picture, you can see that the style does at least pass through the line 6 - 18 and 12 - 24, so that is OK. I can't check the angles from the photo, but Tokushima is about 34 North, and the gnomon angle could be that (to the horizontal). As a fairly low-latitude dial (by UK standards anyway!) the range of hour angles will not be as wide as I am used to, but they do look to be narrower at noon and wider at dusk, as they should. I agree the designer may have had more interest in creating a fun sculpture than primarily a dial, but he could nevertheless have got the gnomonics right. Regards, John - Original Message - From: Fred Sawyer fwsaw...@gmail.com To: Sundial List sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: Interesting sundial in Japan Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this dial is getting more attention than it deserves. It looks to me to be one of those very expensive 'sculptures' made by an artist who really does not understand how a dial works. This dial is not made right - it will not indicate the correct time - the relationship between the plane of hour lines and the gnomon is all wrong. The markings don't appear to me to be braille-like. They are simply 3 pips on the hour and 2 pips every 10 minutes. The fact that some of the pips aren't visible is probably just a trick of lighting in this particular photo. As I said - unless I've missed something here - this is a 'dial' I would pass by without paying it any heed. Fred On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:29 PM, J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com wrote: Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.6/2084 - Release Date: 04/28/09 06:15:00 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman
Interesting sundial in Japan
Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Interesting sundial in Japan
It's real interesting, but what are the dots in the chapter ring that look like braile or maybe some kind of numeral notation? Notice that the gnomon's shadow is not visible on the stainless steel- at least in this photo. From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of J. Tallman Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 9:30 AM To: Sundial Mailing List Subject: Interesting sundial in Japan Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
Hi Jim, It is interesting. But in essence, I think, it's really just a variant armillary dial. If you slice away the night hours and replace the gnomon with a pole style, it all looks quite familiar. BTW, since the chapter ring isn't at right angles to the gnomon, I assume that there is a minor error in reading the time... best wishes, Peter Quoting J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com: Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com -- Peter Mayer Politics Department The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005 Ph: +61 8 8303 5606 Fax : +61 8 8303 3443 e-mail: peter.ma...@adelaide.edu.au CRICOS Provider Number 00123M --- This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains information that may be confidential and/or copyright. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender by reply email and immediately delete this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. No representation is made that this email or any attachments are free of viruses. Virus scanning is recommended and is the responsibility of the recipient. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
MessageIt is an interesting realisation, but is it not just a vertical dial with the night hours added, and the style carried through beyond the plane of the dial plate, for 'artistic' effect? I agree the Braille/Morse/??? dots are a puzzle, though. John - Original Message - From: J. Tallman To: Sundial Mailing List Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 5:29 PM Subject: Interesting sundial in Japan Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
