RE: Porcelain Sundials
Hi John, The old wall dials in France and Italy are often painted using the fresco technique. Here metal oxide pigments, ochre etc, are incorporated into the lime plaster which converts to limestone. They are permanent and last as long as the wall stands subject only to erosion of the limestone. This is why many Zarbula dials still look fresh over 150 years later but are generally they are washed by weathering or obscured by dirt. Chemically the fresco pigments are as stable as glass but lime plaster is softer and more subject to erosion. Regards, Roger Bailey -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John Carmichael Sent: April 24, 2007 2:34 PM To: 'Sundial List' Subject: RE: Porcelain Sundials p.s. But I still love the hand painted wall sundials found in France and Italy, even if their paint doesn't last as long. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Porcelain Sundials
Here is one last bit of info that may help those who are interested in making a porcelain sundial. I just remembered that I had this document. To see photos and read about how I made the porcelain faces for my cupola sundial, go to pages 14 - 16 in this PDF doc. It also shows how I attached the gnomons and how I made the round face bezels (frames), and how you would attach the sundial assembly to a wall (or a cupola as in this case.) I used 14 gauge copper sheet for the gnomons and bezels, and 12 gauge carbonized steel sheet for the face. But if you want a colored gnomon and bezel, you could use powder coated steel for the gnomon and/or bezel. Most porcelain manufacturers apply the porcelain to objects or sheets made of carbon steel. But some apply it to aluminum or treated stainless steel. Note that they must cut out the gnomon attachment holes BEFORE the porcelain is applied! See: http://www.advanceassociates.com/Sundials/Stained_Glass/CupolaSundial/Sundia l_Cupola_Assembly_Instructions.pdf -Original Message- From: Frank King [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:34 AM To: John Carmichael Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Porcelain Sundials Dear John, I write off-list this time, mostly because the list has heard rather a lot from me recently!! Your correspondence has been fascinating. It has taken a while to sort out the different techniques. One reason is that U.S. terminology and English terminologies are a little different. As John Davis has mentioned to me: in England, we think of "porcelain" as referring to tea cups and high-voltage insulators, sometimes also to ornaments made in Germany and elsewhere. To English ears, the term "porcelain dial" sounds as though it is made of ceramic, perhaps made up from tiles. The term "powder coating" is also new to me and I have been trying to find terminology which would be well understood to English manufacturers. I think the word "enamel" would be used for both kinds of technology. I am starting to settle on the two terms: 1. high-temperature vitreous enameling 2. low-temperature oven-baked enameling The first is definitely the more exciting and more durable but limited in size. The second is obviously much cheaper and you can bake a whole car if you want to! I was most interested in your detailed explanations and, especially, that with oven-baked enameling one is limited to two colours. This might explain why most clock dials are just one or two colours in England. The main colour is usually blue but I attach a photograph showing a church clock with a red dial. This is S. Mary's Church, Penzance which is the most southerly and most westerly Town of England which is why you can see a Palm Tree in the foreground. I send this to you not just because of the red dial but because, just to the left of the dial, you can see the top of a pole carrying power lines. You can clearly see the white insulators (one of these is very close to the X for 10 o'clock). This white insulator is made of what we call porcelain! You can see why the idea of a porcelain dial is a little confusing to English diallists!!! By the way, the X and the other Roman numerals are almost certainly gold leaf. Best wishes Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Porcelain Sundials
Dear Frank: Don't feel bad about sending so many letters to the list. I love hearing from you and I'm sure others do as well. It's always nice to hear the thoughts of an educated person. Please forgive me if I cc. my answer to your letter to the sundial List. If you have questions, others might have the same. I think that Americans have the same misconceptions about porcelain too, thinking that porcelain is just for dinnerware or insulators. People don't realize that it can also be fired onto metal (like a bathtub). As I told you at the conference, when it is applied to metal it becomes incredibly strong. I could not believe it when the manufacturer struck a sample with a hammer and it did not even crack! You wrote: "I am starting to settle on the two terms: 1. high-temperature vitreous enameling (porcelain) 2. low-temperature oven-baked enameling (powder coat)" I think that your terminology adequately describes the two types of durable enamel. (the third type of enamel is regular acrylic or oil artist paint applied at room temperature which is not nearly as durable). Just remember that powder coating always involves application by electrostatic attraction. The metal is charged with electricity using an electrical clamp in a special room. (I don't know if it is positively or negatively charged). The paint looks like dust and is oppositely charged so that it is attracted to the metal. After the paint dust is applied, the object is baked in an oven where the dust melts and briefly turns into a liquid and then hardens onto the surface of the metal. If two colors are needed, then separate applications and bakings are required. The first color must be covered with a stencil or masking tape so that it is not covered up by the second color. So you can see why it is difficult to have more than two colors using powder coat. I am sure that this explains why powder coated clock and sundial faces only have two colors. Porcelain glass dust (called "frit") is not applied by electrostatic attraction. It is applied either by hand or by silk-screening techniques. Hope this clears things up. John -Original Message- From: Frank King [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:34 AM To: John Carmichael Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Porcelain Sundials Dear John, I write off-list this time, mostly because the list has heard rather a lot from me recently!! Your correspondence has been fascinating. It has taken a while to sort out the different techniques. One reason is that U.S. terminology and English terminologies are a little different. As John Davis has mentioned to me: in England, we think of "porcelain" as referring to tea cups and high-voltage insulators, sometimes also to ornaments made in Germany and elsewhere. To English ears, the term "porcelain dial" sounds as though it is made of ceramic, perhaps made up from tiles. The term "powder coating" is also new to me and I have been trying to find terminology which would be well understood to English manufacturers. I think the word "enamel" would be used for both kinds of technology. I am starting to settle on the two terms: 1. high-temperature vitreous enameling 2. low-temperature oven-baked enameling The first is definitely the more exciting and more durable but limited in size. The second is obviously much cheaper and you can bake a whole car if you want to! I was most interested in your detailed explanations and, especially, that with oven-baked enameling one is limited to two colours. This might explain why most clock dials are just one or two colours in England. The main colour is usually blue but I attach a photograph showing a church clock with a red dial. This is S. Mary's Church, Penzance which is the most southerly and most westerly Town of England which is why you can see a Palm Tree in the foreground. I send this to you not just because of the red dial but because, just to the left of the dial, you can see the top of a pole carrying power lines. You can clearly see the white insulators (one of these is very close to the X for 10 o'clock). This white insulator is made of what we call porcelain! You can see why the idea of a porcelain dial is a little confusing to English diallists!!! By the way, the X and the other Roman numerals are almost certainly gold leaf. Best wishes Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Porcelain Sundials
Hi John C, Patrick et al, Chris Daniel once told me that the hour lines on the St Mary's Westminster dials are platinum leaf. Harriet James says that it's even worse to work with than gold leaf! Re gold in vitreous enamelling: the gold powder floats to the surface during kiln firing so you end up with a glass-protected solid gold line. Wonderful - but expensive! Regards, John D --- John Carmichael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Now this raises one more important question. Note that the hour lines and the numerals are shiny gold on a blue background. The blue color is certainly baked on powder coat enamel. But what is the gold color? Is the gold color gold leaf that was applied by hand on top of the powder coat blue background, or is the gold color also powder coat? If you talk to Chris again, could you ask him? John p.s. this question is important because if the gold color is powder coat, it would probably double the cost because each color requires a separate baking in the oven and a different stencil. You can not bake on two colors at the same time. Also, gold powder coat paint probably is not as shiny as gold leaf. As we discussed, it is hard to have very large kiln-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Powers Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:58 PM To: 'Sundial List' Subject: RE: Porcelain Sundials Message text written by Patrick Powers >I shall ask Chris Daniel (who is not a member of this list as far as I know) about what he thinks the finish was on St Margaret's.< Well, I did ask Chris Daniel about the St Margaret of Antioch dials and he confirms that they were stove-enamelled - like my Morris Cowley mudguards and not vitreously enamelled. This stove enamelling process gives a more flexible finish but the colour is a fired paint and is not made from fused glass particles and the paint is sprayed on using electrostatic attraction to give better adhesion so, (as far as I understand things), you cannot easily generate designs on the metal by this technique. However, as we see from St Margaret's, you can then apply size and then gold or platinum leaf to the stove enamelled surface to provide necessary dial furniture. Hmmm, I suppose that it might be possible to use masks and layers of different colours and multiple firings to achieve a desired design because my muguards had a grey undercoat as well as a later fired black top coat and they didn't merge!. Might be worth considering when big dials are involved - after all the St Margaret's dials are still going strong after 25 years - not bad for any dial finish. Patrick --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Porcelain Sundials
Well that settles it Patrick! Thanks for clarifying that point. Now hopefully, some of the dialists who have followed this discussion will make some colored metal sundials in the future, either using powder coat or porcelain. John p.s. But I still love the hand painted wall sundials found in France and Italy, even if their paint doesn't last as long. -Original Message- From: Patrick Powers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 2:14 PM To: John Carmichael Subject: RE: Porcelain Sundials Message text written by "John Carmichael" >Now this raises one more important question. Note that the hour lines and the numerals are shiny gold on a blue background. The blue color is certainly baked on powder coat enamel. But what is the gold color? Is the gold color gold leaf that was applied by hand on top of the powder coat blue background, or is the gold color also powder coat? If you talk to Chris again, could you ask him?< It isn't gold on St Margaret's - it's platinum leaf. (some info at: http://www.stonehouses.co.uk/categories.php?mcid=24&;) That's applied like gold leaf - the artwork is painted on using 'size' and then the leaf ie rolled onto and sticks to the size.. Then the whole is burnished to a brilliant finish. Patrick --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Porcelain Sundials
Wonderful Patrick! Thanks so much for asking Chris Daniel for us. Now we know what the large blue & gold faces are made out of and my suspicions have been confirmed. The paint material that Chris described to you is called "Powder Coat" It makes sense for two reasons: There are only two colors used (powder coats usually only have one or two colors because of the difficulty in masking), and the dial faces are so large (large ovens are needed and large porcelain kilns are rare.) >From what I have learned in my investigations, powder coats are the second best paint, after porcelain as far as durability. And powder coating is a lot less expensive. Since it is applied electrostaticly, it can only be applied to metal that conducts electricity. I bet that a lot of the blue & gold and black & gold clock faces I saw were done the same way with powder coat. Now this raises one more important question. Note that the hour lines and the numerals are shiny gold on a blue background. The blue color is certainly baked on powder coat enamel. But what is the gold color? Is the gold color gold leaf that was applied by hand on top of the powder coat blue background, or is the gold color also powder coat? If you talk to Chris again, could you ask him? John p.s. this question is important because if the gold color is powder coat, it would probably double the cost because each color requires a separate baking in the oven and a different stencil. You can not bake on two colors at the same time. Also, gold powder coat paint probably is not as shiny as gold leaf. As we discussed, it is hard to have very large kiln-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Powers Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:58 PM To: 'Sundial List' Subject: RE: Porcelain Sundials Message text written by Patrick Powers >I shall ask Chris Daniel (who is not a member of this list as far as I know) about what he thinks the finish was on St Margaret's.< Well, I did ask Chris Daniel about the St Margaret of Antioch dials and he confirms that they were stove-enamelled - like my Morris Cowley mudguards and not vitreously enamelled. This stove enamelling process gives a more flexible finish but the colour is a fired paint and is not made from fused glass particles and the paint is sprayed on using electrostatic attraction to give better adhesion so, (as far as I understand things), you cannot easily generate designs on the metal by this technique. However, as we see from St Margaret's, you can then apply size and then gold or platinum leaf to the stove enamelled surface to provide necessary dial furniture. Hmmm, I suppose that it might be possible to use masks and layers of different colours and multiple firings to achieve a desired design because my muguards had a grey undercoat as well as a later fired black top coat and they didn't merge!. Might be worth considering when big dials are involved - after all the St Margaret's dials are still going strong after 25 years - not bad for any dial finish. Patrick --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Porcelain Sundials
Message text written by Patrick Powers >I shall ask Chris Daniel (who is not a member of this list as far as I know) about what he thinks the finish was on St Margaret's.< Well, I did ask Chris Daniel about the St Margaret of Antioch dials and he confirms that they were stove-enamelled - like my Morris Cowley mudguards and not vitreously enamelled. This stove enamelling process gives a more flexible finish but the colour is a fired paint and is not made from fused glass particles and the paint is sprayed on using electrostatic attraction to give better adhesion so, (as far as I understand things), you cannot easily generate designs on the metal by this technique. However, as we see from St Margaret's, you can then apply size and then gold or platinum leaf to the stove enamelled surface to provide necessary dial furniture. Hmmm, I suppose that it might be possible to use masks and layers of different colours and multiple firings to achieve a desired design because my muguards had a grey undercoat as well as a later fired black top coat and they didn't merge!. Might be worth considering when big dials are involved - after all the St Margaret's dials are still going strong after 25 years - not bad for any dial finish. Patrick --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Porcelain Sundials
Message text written by "John Carmichael" >Porcelain is a vitreous enamel which means that it is composed of glass frit (fine dust sized particles of glass). It requires HIGH firing temperatures of about 1500 degrees F. and kiln-type ovens. But the enamel and powder coatings used on car parts or lawn furniture is more like traditional paint and is baked at much lower temperatures- about 350 degreesF.< Thanks for that John, pretty clear one doesn't want the vitreous/porcelain stuff on a car because it must shatter if bent! However, the interesting thing is whether or not the fired enamel paint and powder finishes would be just as good as dial finishes. I shall ask Chris Daniel (who is not a member of this list as far as I know) about what he thinks the finish was on St Margaret's. Patrick. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Porcelain Sundials
We must be careful when we use the term "enamel". As I mentioned before, it can refer to regular artist paints, oven baked paint or kiln-fired porcelain. Porcelain is a vitreous enamel which means that it is composed of glass frit (fine dust sized particles of glass). It requires HIGH firing temperatures of about 1500 degrees F. and kiln-type ovens. But the enamel and powder coatings used on car parts or lawn furniture is more like traditional paint and is baked at much lower temperatures- about 350 degrees F. if I remember correctly. Porcelain high temp kiln ovens are usually smaller than low temp paint enamel ovens which can be walk-in size. Perhaps the large blue dials on St Margaret of Antioch's Church are made from low temp paint enamels and not porcelain. This would explain the problem of oven size. Or, they could have been made of porcelain in smaller sections as John Davis suggested. I'd love to find out if they are of real porcelain or just paint enamel. Besides having greater durability (Porcelain might last 500 years? Most powder coats are only guaranteed for 10-20 years), there is another huge advantage in using porcelain instead of baked painted enamels or powder coats. FULL COLOR! Porcelain designs can be of any number of colors and can even have color gradations because it can be silk-screened using the 3-color photographic technique. (Yellow, cyan & magenta and black) Just like a color photograph. Porcelain can be applied by a machine and multiple copies can be made. You can not do this easily with powder coat or paint enamels, I was told. To get multiple colors and colors gradations with low temp paint enamels they must be hand-painted. Stencils are difficult to work with and don't give you color gradations. And it is almost impossible to use more than two colors using powder coat because of the difficulty in masking. So, if you want multiple and blended colors of photo quality designs, then you should use porcelain. (Silk-screened or hand painted with multiple firings) Now here's a thought- All over England I saw the clock faces on all the churches have only TWO colors (either black and gold or blue and gold). This leads me to believe that these clock faces might be made of low temp baked paint enamels and not porcelain. Does anybody know exactly what the English clock faces are made of? Whatever it is it seems to work since most of the clocks look pretty good. The company that makes the clock faces might be able to make two-color sundial faces if provided with the design. If you're interested in the details, this is how they made my porcelain dial faces: It was easy for me to be a porcelain customer. I just emailed the manufacturer a hi res PDF of a colored design that I made with Delta Cad and Photoshop Elements, and his machines applied and duplicated all the colors exactly. I also sent him a separate PDF CAD drawing showing the location of the gnomon attachment holes and disk size. They cut out the metal disk so that it was the right size and shape, and they cut out the gnomon attachment holes with computer guided laser using my pattern. Then they baked on a background color (white) on both the front and back sides of the disk. This encases and protects both sides of the metal from rust and the elements and prevents warping of the disk that would result if only one side of the disk were covered. Then they silk-screen on the three primary colors and black. I swear that the porcelain looked as good the paper printout from my computer! John Carmichael . -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Powers Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 4:03 AM To: 'Sundial List' Subject: Re: Porcelain Sundials Message text written by Frank King >John Carmichael explained that the biggest oven that his suppliers use will accommodate a maximum size dial of 46" square. The Margaret of Antioch dials are over twice that size. I wonder whether Brookbrae could still do a job that big. If so, they may have a customer!< I don't know. There have been changes at Brookbrae over the years. Earlier in this thread John Davis referred to an enameller that he used and I seem to remember that it used them at least partially because they were one of only a few who could accommodate the size of dial that he then had in mind. I am sure that he will read this and will explain the issues. I am actually unsure of the needs of the technology here because the problem is supposed to be the paucity of ovens of a size that can take the metal bases. However in a very extended restoration of a vintage car (it's 42 years since I last drove it!! ), some years ago I needed to get some replacement mudguards repainted. I then discovered that the originals had been stove enameled and in trying to be authentic I have found no difficulty in getting that done first with a matt-grey prim
Re: Porcelain Sundials
Hi Frank et al, The Houghton Hall sundials were made by Vitramet Europe Ltd. (http://www.vitrameteuropeltd.com/). I notice that one of the dials actually features in the photomontage that heads their homepage. Although Vitramet have some facilities in the UK, the Houghton Hall dials were actually enamelled in Mexico(!) because of their size (1320mm diameter or around 53.5"). I only had to deal with the UK office, I'm pleased to say. I don't know how much bigger they could go. One nice feature is that the gold lines feature real gold particles which are ground up in the paste enamel and then fired in - they do have a cheaper option though! One of the dials (the N face) had to be in two pieces to allow it to be assembled around the original 1727 gnomon which is fixed into the stonework behind the dial. Thus if you wanted to make a dial which was bigger than Vitramet's oven, it would be possible to assemble it from separate panels mounted edge-to-edge. Regards, John D -- Frank King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Patrick, Your short message is a mine of information... > > I am fairly sure they (the dials on St Margaret > > of Antioch's Ch) ARE enamel! You are quite right to refer to this place as "the Church of S. Margaret of Antioch" and, likewise, I should have referred to "the Collegiate Church of S. Peter in Westminster" rather than the vernacular Westminster Abbey! I must try harder! As far as I know, the latter has no dials (though I put one in the street close to its Chapter House) whereas the former has four. Even more interestingly you say: > Yes, they are enamel > They are huge too - 8ft 6ins in diameter. This measurement raises further questions. John Carmichael explained that the biggest oven that his suppliers use will accommodate a maximum size dial of 46" square. The Margaret of Antioch dials are over twice that size. I wonder whether Brookbrae could still do a job that big. If so, they may have a customer! Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Porcelain Sundials
Message text written by Frank King >John Carmichael explained that the biggest oven that his suppliers use will accommodate a maximum size dial of 46" square. The Margaret of Antioch dials are over twice that size. I wonder whether Brookbrae could still do a job that big. If so, they may have a customer!< I don't know. There have been changes at Brookbrae over the years. Earlier in this thread John Davis referred to an enameller that he used and I seem to remember that it used them at least partially because they were one of only a few who could accommodate the size of dial that he then had in mind. I am sure that he will read this and will explain the issues. I am actually unsure of the needs of the technology here because the problem is supposed to be the paucity of ovens of a size that can take the metal bases. However in a very extended restoration of a vintage car (it's 42 years since I last drove it!! ), some years ago I needed to get some replacement mudguards repainted. I then discovered that the originals had been stove enamelled and in trying to be authentic I have found no difficulty in getting that done first with a matt-grey priming enamelled layer and later with a gloss one. Are the ovens used for stove enamelling car parts (the ovensI used for my mudguards were of a walk-in size) the same sort as those used for artistic and enamelled signs etc? I have heard that stove enamelling needs a higher temperature than powder coating It would be nice to know if a combination of the two technologies can be used to solve the problem you have. Patrick --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Porcelain Sundials
Dear Patrick, Your short message is a mine of information... > > I am fairly sure they (the dials on St Margaret > > of Antioch's Ch) ARE enamel! You are quite right to refer to this place as "the Church of S. Margaret of Antioch" and, likewise, I should have referred to "the Collegiate Church of S. Peter in Westminster" rather than the vernacular Westminster Abbey! I must try harder! As far as I know, the latter has no dials (though I put one in the street close to its Chapter House) whereas the former has four. Even more interestingly you say: > Yes, they are enamel > They are huge too - 8ft 6ins in diameter. This measurement raises further questions. John Carmichael explained that the biggest oven that his suppliers use will accommodate a maximum size dial of 46" square. The Margaret of Antioch dials are over twice that size. I wonder whether Brookbrae could still do a job that big. If so, they may have a customer! Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Porcelain Sundials
Message text written by Frank King > I am fairly sure they (the dials on St Margaret of Antioch's Ch) ARE enamel!< Yes, they are enamel. Chris Daniel recorded these dials for the BSS Register. His recording form states that they are of stainless steel, cerulean (that is to say 'blue'!) enamel, painted with size and finally gilded with platinum leaf. They were constructed by Brookbrae Ltd. They are huge too - 8ft 6ins in diameter. Patrick --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Porcelain Sundials
Dear John, > Does anybody know if the four round blue dials on > the tower at Westminster Abbey in London are made > of porcelain (vitreous enamel)? They are on the Tower of the Church of S. Margaret's Westminster (quite different from Westminster Abbey) and are by Christopher Daniel. You can see a little about these dials in: http://www.sundials.co.uk/~thames.htm but it doesn't say what they are made of. I am fairly sure they ARE enamel! Best wishes Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Porcelain Sundials
Does anybody know if the four round blue dials on the tower at Westminster Abbey in London are made of porcelain (vitreous enamel)? p.s. by the way, does anybody have good photos of these that we could use on our Sundial Cupolas, Towers & Chimneys website? From: JOHN DAVIS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:55 AM To: John Carmichael Cc: 'Sundial List' Subject: Re: Porcelain Sundials Hi John and sundiallists everywhere, You might be interested to know that Harriet James and I are currently making a vitreous enamel on steel dial to replace an art-deco painted steel dial on a private house. The original iron scrollwork gnomon will be reused. The firm doing the enamelling are called Vitramet - they also did the set of four large vertical towers dials I designed for Houghton Hall in Norfolk. During the BSS Cambridge Conference we all admired the set of 6 dials on the Gate of Honour at Gonville & Caiuis College. These were enamelled in the 1960s, I think, by a firm in Birmingham who seem to have disappeared now. Regards, John Davis John Carmichael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Frank (cc Sundial List): I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed seeing you and getting a chance to talk with you at the conference, especially our discussions about the possibility of using durable fired porcelain instead of paint for the replacement of old deteriorated painted sundials. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Porcelain Sundials
Hi Frank: I think the terms: fired porcelain, baked porcelain, or porcelain enamel mean the same thing. I have heard the term "baked or fired enamel" used in reference to porcelain. But you are right, baked enamel usually refers to oil based paints or powder coats that are baked on at low temperatures (like the paint on your car. John -Original Message- From: Frank King [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:57 AM To: John Carmichael Cc: 'Frank King'; 'Sundial List'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Porcelain Sundials Dear John, Thank you for your message. I was delighted to have the opportunity to meet you face to face at the BSS conference and to hear about the techniques you use... > especially our discussions about the possibility > of using durable fired porcelain instead of paint I shall certainly investigate this technology though my current client is keen to stick to paint! I have something else in mind for a year or two hence and may look very carefully at this technique then. I noted a number of intriguing linguistic differences in our discussions... I think we use the term `enamel' for `fired porcelain' which means something slightly different here. I also noted that when I talked about `fixing a dial' this was not a usage that you recognized!! Your CD, by the way, is full of absolutely splendid delights. Best wishes Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Porcelain Sundials
Hi John and sundiallists everywhere,
You might be interested to know that Harriet James and I are currently making
a vitreous enamel on steel dial to replace an art-deco painted steel dial on a
private house. The original iron scrollwork gnomon will be reused. The firm
doing the enamelling are called Vitramet - they also did the set of four large
vertical towers dials I designed for Houghton Hall in Norfolk.
During the BSS Cambridge Conference we all admired the set of 6 dials on the
Gate of Honour at Gonville & Caiuis College. These were enamelled in the
1960s, I think, by a firm in Birmingham who seem to have disappeared now.
Regards,
John Davis
John Carmichael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }Dear Frank (cc
Sundial List):
I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed seeing you and getting a chance
to talk with you at the conference, especially our discussions about the
possibility of using durable fired porcelain instead of paint for the
replacement of old deteriorated painted sundials.
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Porcelain Sundials
Dear John, Thank you for your message. I was delighted to have the opportunity to meet you face to face at the BSS conference and to hear about the techniques you use... > especially our discussions about the possibility > of using durable fired porcelain instead of paint I shall certainly investigate this technology though my current client is keen to stick to paint! I have something else in mind for a year or two hence and may look very carefully at this technique then. I noted a number of intriguing linguistic differences in our discussions... I think we use the term `enamel' for `fired porcelain' which means something slightly different here. I also noted that when I talked about `fixing a dial' this was not a usage that you recognised!! Your CD, by the way, is full of absolutely splendid delights. Best wishes Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
