RE: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Hello all: Frank King kindly sent me a new copy of Fabio Savian’s marvelous Republican Calendar for this year. The large monthly photos are all of beautiful British stained glass sundials in full color and HD. It is quite an attractive and artistic calendar. My favorite month is Floweral for obvious reasons! Thanks to all involved in making and distributing it- especially to Frank King and Fabio Savian. SGS need all the publicity they can get. I’ll hang it in my studio for everyone to see. John Carmichael p.s Dave Bell and I will be updating our SGS website to include a couple of new SGS that were made in the past decade. Hopefully we can get this done before its management and ownership transfers over to NASS. See: www.stainedglasssundials.com. From: sundial On Behalf Of Michael Ossipoff Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2022 3:35 PM To: fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it; sundial list Subject: Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231 Oops!! At the time of writing, it's still only September 29th in Greenwich. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Oops!! At the time of writing, it's still only September 29th in Greenwich. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Though Steve objected to something that I said in an earlier post, my own reaction to what I said was much worse than anyone else’s criticism could be. . At first I didn’t understand why I didn’t like what I’d said. But though I meant no implied criticism of a country or its overall population, it could easily have sounded as if such was implied. . The unfortunate words “over there” made it a national statement. …& that gave it a nationalist, political implication. …completely unintended, but nonetheless definitely there. . I’m not political, & want no part of politics or the trouble that accompanies it, national or international. . Because I respect myself too much to want to say something like that, I strongly didn’t like what I’d said. . Though there are other yearstart rules that are typically about 3 time more accurate, the Gregorian leapyear is more than sufficiently accurate, as the following will show: . Maximum Periodic Displacement (mpd): . All calendars are periodically-displaced by oscillation about a middle point. . The Gregorian leapyear rule results in an mpd of 1.5 days. That’s entirely insignificant on the seasonal-scale. . …& I emphasize that that 1.5 days is the **maximum** extreme that the periodic-displacement will reach over the entire 400-year Gregorian cycle. . Unidirectional Drift: . That middle about which the periodic displacement oscillates is, itself, moving unidirectionally in yearstart rules that don’t use an actual astronomical observation, but which, rather, use an arithmetical approximation to the desired year-length. . But that drift-rate can be so small as to be unproblematic over many centuries, or even, with some rules, millennia. . The Gregorian leapyear rule results, currently, in a drift-rate that is now only 43 minutes per century. . >From 1582 to 1982 was exactly one 400-year Gregorian cycle. So the periodic-displacement was zero. But there was unidirectional drift, because the Gregorian leapyear rule is based on an approximation to the length of a Vernal-Equinox tropical-year. . That drift, from 1582 to 1982, was less than 3 hours, in terms of the mean-tropical-year. Not a week, not a day, but less than 3 hours.… i.e., on the average throughout the year, any particular Solar ecliptic longitude occurred at a calendar date-&-time less than 3 hours earlier than it did in 1582. . In fact it was even less still, because the drift-rate was lower in earlier centuries. That’s because the drift rate is accelerating. …because the day-length is increasing, resulting in fewer days in any tropical-year. …thereby increasing the amount by which the Gregorian mean-year of 365.2425 is longer than any one of the various tropical-years, including the mean tropical-year. . So, incidentally, the drift-rate is different for the various tropical-years (… e.g. reckoned at Vernal Equinox vs at Summer Solstice, etc.) . Summary: The Gregorian leapyear rule has only negligible mpd & unidirectional drift-rate. . I should add that I spoke of the mean tropical year instead of the Vernal Equinox year, because that synchronization to the Vernal-Equinox year was only temporary. Though the drift-rate was & is very slow, the difference between the tropical-year lengths is very slight. . When the Gregorian reform was being discussed by Gregorius’ assembled team of astronomers & mathematicians, some wanted a more accurate rule. But it was decided that sufficient accuracy is achieved by the one that they eventually chose. They were right. . The French Republican Calendar (FRC) is a calendar of terrestrial seasonal emphasis. . Litmus Freeman, a remarkably-talented & creative traveling troubadour & calendar-advocate in England proposes a calendar structurally-similar to the FRC. . His calendar, like the FRC, is an ecliptic-months calendar that achieves fixed-ness via blank-days (which I don’t like, but which many calendar-reform advocates don’t object to). . I should just add now that the following 3 calendar-attributes are mutually incompatible: . 1. Accurate ecliptic-months . 2. No blank-days . 3. Fixed-calendar. . Therefore, because I don’t like blank-days, my Ecliptic-Months Calendar proposal wasn’t a fixed calendar. It was identical to the Indian National Calendar, but with a different yearstart rule, & Western Zodiacal names for the ecliptic-months. . Anyway, returning to Freeman’s ecliptic-months calendar: . It’s called the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC). It is indeed internationally-universal, because it’s celestial. Its celestial nature is strongly emphasized. So one difference between FRC & UCC is that FRC is terrestrial & UCC is celestial. . UCC’s celestial nature is the justification for “Universal” in its name. . Other differences: . Whereas FRC starts its year at the Autumnal Equinox, UCC starts its year at the Vernal Equinox. . Whereas FRC places all of its blank-days together at the end of the
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Steve: . You said: . [quote] I'm not surprised that he reacted in his quirky way to an unjustified comment. [/quote] . Oh really? Frank was using that same argumentative Internet attack-style, completely uncalled-for, in his initial post to me, before I’d said anything to him: . I quote: . [quote] Without changing ANY detail of the specification of the Gregorian Calendar (which you clearly want to keep) you follow the precedent set by your hero Pope Gregory III [/quote] . So, he was using the argumentative attack-exaggeration that I referred to, before I’d written anything to him. It was “out of the blue”, unprovoked, & uncalled-for. Right out of the starting-gate. . …& of course then he repeated the same wording, “your hero Pope Gregory III”. Evidently he was afraid that he wasn’t heard the first time. I didn’t say anything the first time, but, with the 2nd time I mentioned it. Do you think maybe if he doesn’t want to have it mentioned, then maybe he doesn’t have to do it with repetition? . And yes, I *have* encountered that before. There was something all too familiar about it. . So his unprovoked attack-language is okay, but my mentioning it is not? . You said: . [quote] On 2022-09-21 3:22 a.m., Michael Ossipoff wrote: . [quote] Yes some of you over there like to rely on exaggeration as an attack-tactic [/quote] I hope it's unintentional on your part, but the words "some of you over there" hint at a prejudice that disrespects not only Frank King but also others from his part of the world. [/quote] . I neither said nor implied nothing about everyone in any region or place. Neither did I say or imply anything about anyone other than some individuals by whom I was attacked in the manner which I referred to. . I said “some”. I didn’t generalize to any whole population anywhere. . …& I didn’t “disrespect” Frank. I merely called him on his inappropriate argumentative conduct. . There was no”prejudice”. Prejudice means prejudgement. Whom, pray tell, did I prejudge? . I referred to a particular thing that Frank had said. …& to prior experience with the same behavior. . Prejudgment means judging people you haven’t met, or people about whom you have no basis for what you’re saying, You’re straining the meaning of “prejudice”, bigtime. . No, I only made reference to past experience, but I didn’t express any judgment regarding anyone I haven’t been abused by. I was referring to the abusers that I’ve experienced, but I made no blanket judgments about anyone other than the attackers that I’ve encountered. . …& I didn’t imply that they comprise a significant or large proportion of any population. . …so where was the prejudgment by me? . About Gregorius vs Gregory: . I didn’t use the words “incorrect”, or “unacceptable”, or imply that Frank’s usage was unusual or uncommon. I merely made the uncontroversial obvious statement that Pope Gregorius didn’t call himself Gregory. The discussion was about his official actions, not about his chums called him in casual conversation. . So it’s common to call people by names other than their own (& by other languages’ equivalent names)? Fine. Whether it’s common or otherwise, I merely stated an instance of that. I said nothing about “incorrect” or “unacceptable”, & I made no statement regarding how many or how few people do that. . When Gregorius issued the order, he was acting in his official capacity as pope. He was acting as Pope Gregorius, not as Gregory or Greg. . As you yourself brought up: When Gregorius signed the document specifying the changes in the Julian Calendar, in 1582, with what name was his edict or order signed? . Whatever names he’s called by in various other milieux, settings or situations, especially outside his official capacity, or in other countries, he signed that thing as Gregorius. . Those are reasons why I made my comment. But I said only what I said, & I didn’t say “incorrect”, “unacceptable”, or anything about how many people use other names. I didn’t say what you attributed to me. . In summary, maybe it’s sometimes best to fact-check what one is saying about another person before posting it. On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 3:52 PM Steve Lelievre < steve.lelievre.can...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2022-09-21 3:22 a.m., Michael Ossipoff wrote: > > Yes some of you over there like to rely on exaggeration as an attack-tactic > > I hope it's unintentional on your part, but the words "some of you over > there" hint at a prejudice that disrespects not only Frank King but also > others from his part of the world. > > Though we could call every country & city by its earliest known ancient > name, it’s a bit different with a person’s name. > > It is seems pretty evident to me that historical figures of note were > routinely referred to using the name form applicable to the language being > spoken. Indeed, the convention persists today - think of the current pope. > He signs
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Yes some of you over there like to rely on exaggeration as an attack-tactic, but in this instance it isn’t an exaggeration. You keep calling Gregorius a hero, but that isn’t an exaggeration. Gregorius & his astronomers saved the Julian Calendar when they restored it’s original seasonal positioning, & improved the leap year rule to keep it that way. Gregorio sounds like an Italianization. But Latin was official in the Catholic Church. He didn’t call himself Gregory. His official church name was Gregorius. Though we could call every country & city by its earliest known ancient name, it’s a bit different with a person’s name. How did he officially refer to himself? On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 12:33 AM Frank King wrote: > Dear Michael, > > I am most grateful to you for pointing out > an error in my message. I referred to: > > > ... your hero Pope Gregory III > > and you correctly commented: > > > I doubt that he called himself Gregory... > > Quite so, BUT you missed a MUCH more serious > error. He was neither Gregory III nor > Gregorius III. I omitted the X from XIII. > Many apologies for that. > > > His name was Gregorius. > > Hmmm. This needs qualifying... > > His tomb carries the inscription: > > GREGORIO XIII PONT.MAX. > > This expands to: > > GREGORIO XIII PONTIFEX MAXIMUS > > I have to admit to anglicizing names for > this list and would write 'Rome' rather > than 'Roma' despite the latter being the > correct Latin and Italian. > > Accordingly, your hero is Pope Gregory XIII > to me, at least when I remember to key in > the X :-) > > Very best wishes > Frank > > > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Dear Michael, I am most grateful to you for pointing out an error in my message. I referred to: > ... your hero Pope Gregory III and you correctly commented: > I doubt that he called himself Gregory... Quite so, BUT you missed a MUCH more serious error. He was neither Gregory III nor Gregorius III. I omitted the X from XIII. Many apologies for that. > His name was Gregorius. Hmmm. This needs qualifying... His tomb carries the inscription: GREGORIO XIII PONT.MAX. This expands to: GREGORIO XIII PONTIFEX MAXIMUS I have to admit to anglicizing names for this list and would write 'Rome' rather than 'Roma' despite the latter being the correct Latin and Italian. Accordingly, your hero is Pope Gregory XIII to me, at least when I remember to key in the X :-) Very best wishes Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Again my reply to Favio didn’t post. I don’t know why, but now I’m trying again to post it: , Favio— . You wrote: . [quote] The idea of reviving the Rep. Calendar (together with the corresponding Greg. Calendar) is that of an intellectual fun [/quote] . Undenniably so. . [quote] If you really wanted a calendar to be hooked with precision to the declination curves, I believe that the most authoritative is the Persian Calendar, still in use in Iran and Afghanistan, which uses the names of the zodiac for its months, that is, equating what gnomonists usually do. [/quote] . Yes, the Solar Haji calendar of Persia is accurate too. . I don’t know whether the Indian National Calendar or the Solar Haji is more accurate. . The Solar Haji uses a pure astronomical yearstart, & that makes it a fraction of a day more accurate. . Also, it includes a 29-day month. If the Indian National Calendar changes the 29 day month to 30 days, to keep all the months to 30 or 31 days (maybe for the convenience of monthly-payments), that would amount to some loss of accuracy. . But it seems to me that they said that the Solar Haji’s 29-day month is the last month of their year, which would be the ecliptic month of Pisces. But the shortest month of the year should be the one that includes our orbital perihelion….& isn’t that in Sagittarius or Capricorn. . Anyway, those two calendars are the most accurate day-count calendars. (as opposed to ecliptic-month systems that start the year at the exact moment of a solstice or equinox). . [quote] I don't think that the creators of the Rep. Calendar had the intention of reinterpreting the names of the zodiacal months (30° of longitude) with those of their calendar… [/quote . Maybe not explicitly, but of course they were intentionally measuring the same ecliptic-months that the traditional Aries-Pisces ecliptic-months measure. …but the FRC of course does so with a day-count calendar, so the months aren’t exactly the same. . [quote] If I really had to make some considerations on declination curves, I must say that lately I have rediscovered the use of these curves to define diurnal arcs of whole hours, i.e. selecting the declination values corresponding to diurnal arcs of whole hours and indicating this duration on the curves. [/quote] . But, we have the hour-lines to tell the hours. . Do you mean have a declination-line for each hour? But that would unacceptably clutter the dial, because there are so many hours in a half-year. …& look at how little hour-accuracy there’d be, with those very closely-spaced hourly declination-lines. That doesn’t sound feasible for sundial timekeeping. . [quote] There are not many sundials with these features but they exist and provide useful and not commonly available information (Sundial Atlas DE2758, CZ218, AT1291, IT14055, FR4881). [/quote] . I tried to find those dials at the Sundial-Atlas, but I couldn’t find a search-provision there. . [quote] On the Rep. Cal. 230, today is the day of 'celebration of convictions' :-) [/quote] . An appropriate day-name for this day when calendrical preferences are being discussed. . Wishing you a good year. . Wishing you good new ecliptic-month of Scorpio, the month before Sagittarius, the run-up to the Solstice upturn. . Wishing you a good Celtic New-Year, at Samhain . Ecliptic-Month Virgo, degree 28 . Michael On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 9:08 AM fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it < fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it> wrote: > Dear Michael > > The idea of reviving the Rep. Calendar (together with the corresponding > Greg. Calendar) is that of an intellectual fun and I would be amazed to > discover other implications. > > There are many calendars still in use in the world even if to give us an > appointment it has become common to refer to the Gregorian Calendar. > If you really wanted a calendar to be hooked with precision to the > declination curves, I believe that the most authoritative is the Persian > Calendar, still in use in Iran and Afghanistan, which uses the names of > the zodiac for its months, that is, equating what gnomonists usually do. > > I don't think that the creators of the Rep. Calendar had the intention > of reinterpreting the names of the zodiacal months (30° of longitude) > with those of their calendar even if, despite a bit of approximation, > these name could be a curious and entertaining option for people fasting > in astronomy but able to perceive the meaning of these names. > With all the limitations of this option by varying the latitude. > > If I really had to make some considerations on declination curves, I > must say that lately I have rediscovered the use of these curves to > define diurnal arcs of whole hours, i.e. selecting the declination > values corresponding to diurnal arcs of whole hours and indicating this > duration on the curves. > There are not many sundials with these features but they exist and > provide useful and not commonly
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 4:44 AM Frank King wrote: > Dear Michael, > > I agree with much of what you say about the > French Republican Calendar but, importantly, > you say nothing about how this calendar > relates to sundials. Let me explain in > simple steps: > > 1. Sketch an outline vertical sundial with > seven declination curves and a single > hour line, at 12 noon. > > 2. The seven curves mark the boundaries of > six regions. Note each region is divided > into two parts by the 12 noon hour line. > > 3. We have 12 spaces. Now write the label > CAPRICORN in the top left space. This > is the first astronomical month after > the winter solstice. > > 4. In the five spaces underneath, you write > the names AQUARIUS to GEMINI. > > 5. On the right hand side you start at the > bottom and work up with the names CANCER > to SAGITTARIUS at the top. > > 6. This sundial will now tell you which > astronomical month you are in. Of > course you need to know whether the > solar declination is increasing or > decreasing but everyone who reads > this mailing list will know that :-) > > 7. Now, just for a moment, we do something > VERY SILLY. We replace the labels with > the names of the Gregorian months. So, > replace the label CAPRICORN with the > label JANUARY so on. > > 8. Notice that for about two-thirds of > JANUARY the sun really is in CAPRICORN > so this silly sundial actually gives > the correct Gregorian month about 67% > of the year. > > 9. NOW for the clever bit. Without changing > ANY detail of the specification of the > Gregorian Calendar (which you clearly > want to keep) you follow the precedent > set by your hero Pope Gregory III. Just > once, you cut 10 days from the year. We > could do this anywhere but let's cut > 10 days from March. JUST ONCE! > > 10. We now find the March Equinox is right > at the end of March so APRIL almost > exactly coincides with ARIES. > > 11. We find that each Gregorian month now > almost (but not quite) overlaps the > corresponding astronomical month. > > 12. This way, our 12 spaces really can be > labelled JANUARY to DECEMBER and the > sundial gives the correct Gregorian > month over 90% of the time. > > This makes life MUCH EASIER for sundial > designers who want their sundials to tell > the date, at least approximately. It is > almost impossible to estimate the date > to better than two or three days close > to the solstices so this calendar would > be quite usable. > > OK. Now for the bit you won't like... > > The adjusted Gregorian Calendar is very > nearly the same as the Republican Calendar. > The main differences are: > > 1. They made every month 30 days. > > 2. They changed the rules for leap years. > > The first change is not very important but > it is easier to teach children that EVERY > month is 30 days. > > The second change IS important because, by > insisting that every year begins on the > day of the September equinox, you don't > get wild swings in the dates of the starts > of the atarts of the astronomical months. > With the current Gregorian Calendar, the > September Equinox can be on any of the > dates 21, 22, 23 and 24 September and that > is just at the longitude of France. > > The Republican Calendar ensures that the > September Equinox is ALWAYS on the first > day of the first month of the year in > France. If you change longitude then > it will never drift more than a day > either side. > > Suggestion: > > Why don't you order one of these calendars > (English or Italian edition) then: > > LIVE WITH IT FOR A YEAR and, this > time next year, you can tell us all > how you got on with it :-) > > You might even enjoy the pictures and the > way the months work out. > > As others have said: this calendar is > GREAT FUN. > > Have a good year! > > Frank > > Frank King > Cambridge, U.K. > > > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
I tried postings replies to both Frank & Favio in one post, & it didn’t work. Neither reply posted. So now I’m starting over, postings them sseparately. This reply is to Frank, & my reply to Favio will immediately subsequently be posted. I hope that these replies will post this time. Hi Frank— . Thanks for your reply. At first I thought that you were posting to point out my error, & it’s a relief that that isn’t so. Here’s what my error was: . I said that the ecliptic-month of Libra will start (in our Pacific Daylight-Savings time here) on September 23rd, some minutes after 3 a.m. I made that error because I was looking at October instead of September. . So, the time that I reported was the day of the month & the time of day at which the ecliptic month of Scorpio starts in October. . The correct time of the beginning of the ecliptic-month of Libra this year is September 22nd, at 6:04 p.m., in our Pacific Daylight Savings Time. . That’s September 23rd, at 1:04 a.m. in UTC. …or 01:04 in 24-hour time. . I’m replying inline so that I don’t miss any comments that I mean to reply to: . [quote] you say nothing about how this calendar relates to sundials. [/quote] . I mentioned that the FRC approximates the ecliptic-months, so I didn’t completely leave that out. . I agree with your description of a sundial’s declination-lines. . …7 of them if you just want to demarcate the 12 ecliptic-months. . …except that, often or usually, the old sundials labeled the ecliptic-months by their _symbols_ rather than their names. …as will my next sundial. . [quote] 7. Now, just for a moment, we do something VERY SILLY. We replace the labels with the names of the Gregorian months. So, replace the label CAPRICORN with the label JANUARY so on. [/quote] . I would never do that. . For one thing: . I prefer demarcating & labeling the ecliptic months, because: . 1. Calendars tell you the Roman month, & so why not let the sundial tell you the ecliptic-month. . 2. Telling the ecliptic-month is more accurate, because of course the relation between ecliptic-months & Roman months varies from year to year. . For another thing: . If someone would rather that the sundial give Roman months instead of ecliptic-months, then the sundial should give them the Roman months as accurately as possible !!! . The Roman months could be useful to someone who wanted to orient a portable window-sill dial or portable window-table dial by rotating it till it tells the right date. Though I myself prefer ecliptic-months for that purpose too, probably a lot of people would rather just use the Roman months. So, if you tell Roman months, then tell them as accurately as possible. . [quote] 8. Notice that for about two-thirds of JANUARY the sun really is in CAPRICORN so this silly sundial actually gives the correct Gregorian month about 67% of the year. [/quote] . Not good enough, especially if someone is using it to orient a portable table dial or windowsill dial. . [quote] 9. NOW for the clever bit. Without changing ANY detail of the specification of the Gregorian Calendar (which you clearly want to keep) you follow the precedent set by your hero Pope Gregory III… [/quote] . First, I doubt that he called himself Gregory, or that others did in those days. . His name was Gregorius. . Secondly, Pope Gregorius & his astronomers accomplished something important & distinctly-desirable, when they re-set the Julian calendar to its original relation to the Solar ecliptic-longitude . …& additionally improved the leapyear-rule to make it stay that way. . (no arithmetical rule will do that perfectly, but the Gregorian leapyear-does an excellent job. . Though, ideally, I prefer my own yearstart rule , which maximizes both accuracy & simplicity, the Gregorian leapyear-rule is undeniably good enough.) . I should add that I never call it the “Gregorian Calendar”. It’s the Julian Calendar, with the Gregorian re-alignment with the original Julian Calendar. I don’t call it “the Julian Calendar”, because “Julian Calendar” is always used for referring to the drifting & drifted Julian Calendar, used until the Gregorian reform. . I usually call it the Roman Calendar, or sometimes the Roman-Gregorian Calendar. I guess it could also be called the Julian Calendar with Gregorian restored seasonal-alignment. . I don’t agree that your proposed displacement of the Julian months is acceptably small. Even the proposed leapweek fixed-calendars only have 3.5 days max error. 10 days displacement would be significant, unprecedented & excessive. . After all, fixing a cumulative-drift of that magnitude was the reason why the Gregorian reform was deemed necessary. When Summer’s reliably consistent warm weather starts 10 days after the Summer-Solstice, we definitely notice that it didn’t start at the solstice. . [quote] 12. This way, our 12 spaces really can be
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 9:08 AM fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it < fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it> wrote: > Dear Michael > > The idea of reviving the Rep. Calendar (together with the corresponding > Greg. Calendar) is that of an intellectual fun and I would be amazed to > discover other implications. > > There are many calendars still in use in the world even if to give us an > appointment it has become common to refer to the Gregorian Calendar. > If you really wanted a calendar to be hooked with precision to the > declination curves, I believe that the most authoritative is the Persian > Calendar, still in use in Iran and Afghanistan, which uses the names of > the zodiac for its months, that is, equating what gnomonists usually do. > > I don't think that the creators of the Rep. Calendar had the intention > of reinterpreting the names of the zodiacal months (30° of longitude) > with those of their calendar even if, despite a bit of approximation, > these name could be a curious and entertaining option for people fasting > in astronomy but able to perceive the meaning of these names. > With all the limitations of this option by varying the latitude. > > If I really had to make some considerations on declination curves, I > must say that lately I have rediscovered the use of these curves to > define diurnal arcs of whole hours, i.e. selecting the declination > values corresponding to diurnal arcs of whole hours and indicating this > duration on the curves. > There are not many sundials with these features but they exist and > provide useful and not commonly available information (Sundial Atlas > DE2758, CZ218, AT1291, IT14055, FR4881). > On the Rep. Cal. 230, today is the day of 'celebration of convictions' :-) > > ciao Fabio > > -- > Fabio Savian > fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it > www.nonvedolora.eu > Paderno Dugnano, Milano, Italy > 45° 34' 9'' N, 9° 9' 54'' E, UTC +1 (DST +2) > > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Dear Michael The idea of reviving the Rep. Calendar (together with the corresponding Greg. Calendar) is that of an intellectual fun and I would be amazed to discover other implications. There are many calendars still in use in the world even if to give us an appointment it has become common to refer to the Gregorian Calendar. If you really wanted a calendar to be hooked with precision to the declination curves, I believe that the most authoritative is the Persian Calendar, still in use in Iran and Afghanistan, which uses the names of the zodiac for its months, that is, equating what gnomonists usually do. I don't think that the creators of the Rep. Calendar had the intention of reinterpreting the names of the zodiacal months (30° of longitude) with those of their calendar even if, despite a bit of approximation, these name could be a curious and entertaining option for people fasting in astronomy but able to perceive the meaning of these names. With all the limitations of this option by varying the latitude. If I really had to make some considerations on declination curves, I must say that lately I have rediscovered the use of these curves to define diurnal arcs of whole hours, i.e. selecting the declination values corresponding to diurnal arcs of whole hours and indicating this duration on the curves. There are not many sundials with these features but they exist and provide useful and not commonly available information (Sundial Atlas DE2758, CZ218, AT1291, IT14055, FR4881). On the Rep. Cal. 230, today is the day of 'celebration of convictions' :-) ciao Fabio -- Fabio Savian fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it www.nonvedolora.eu Paderno Dugnano, Milano, Italy 45° 34' 9'' N, 9° 9' 54'' E, UTC +1 (DST +2) --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Dear Michael, I agree with much of what you say about the French Republican Calendar but, importantly, you say nothing about how this calendar relates to sundials. Let me explain in simple steps: 1. Sketch an outline vertical sundial with seven declination curves and a single hour line, at 12 noon. 2. The seven curves mark the boundaries of six regions. Note each region is divided into two parts by the 12 noon hour line. 3. We have 12 spaces. Now write the label CAPRICORN in the top left space. This is the first astronomical month after the winter solstice. 4. In the five spaces underneath, you write the names AQUARIUS to GEMINI. 5. On the right hand side you start at the bottom and work up with the names CANCER to SAGITTARIUS at the top. 6. This sundial will now tell you which astronomical month you are in. Of course you need to know whether the solar declination is increasing or decreasing but everyone who reads this mailing list will know that :-) 7. Now, just for a moment, we do something VERY SILLY. We replace the labels with the names of the Gregorian months. So, replace the label CAPRICORN with the label JANUARY so on. 8. Notice that for about two-thirds of JANUARY the sun really is in CAPRICORN so this silly sundial actually gives the correct Gregorian month about 67% of the year. 9. NOW for the clever bit. Without changing ANY detail of the specification of the Gregorian Calendar (which you clearly want to keep) you follow the precedent set by your hero Pope Gregory III. Just once, you cut 10 days from the year. We could do this anywhere but let's cut 10 days from March. JUST ONCE! 10. We now find the March Equinox is right at the end of March so APRIL almost exactly coincides with ARIES. 11. We find that each Gregorian month now almost (but not quite) overlaps the corresponding astronomical month. 12. This way, our 12 spaces really can be labelled JANUARY to DECEMBER and the sundial gives the correct Gregorian month over 90% of the time. This makes life MUCH EASIER for sundial designers who want their sundials to tell the date, at least approximately. It is almost impossible to estimate the date to better than two or three days close to the solstices so this calendar would be quite usable. OK. Now for the bit you won't like... The adjusted Gregorian Calendar is very nearly the same as the Republican Calendar. The main differences are: 1. They made every month 30 days. 2. They changed the rules for leap years. The first change is not very important but it is easier to teach children that EVERY month is 30 days. The second change IS important because, by insisting that every year begins on the day of the September equinox, you don't get wild swings in the dates of the starts of the atarts of the astronomical months. With the current Gregorian Calendar, the September Equinox can be on any of the dates 21, 22, 23 and 24 September and that is just at the longitude of France. The Republican Calendar ensures that the September Equinox is ALWAYS on the first day of the first month of the year in France. If you change longitude then it will never drift more than a day either side. Suggestion: Why don't you order one of these calendars (English or Italian edition) then: LIVE WITH IT FOR A YEAR and, this time next year, you can tell us all how you got on with it :-) You might even enjoy the pictures and the way the months work out. As others have said: this calendar is GREAT FUN. Have a good year! Frank Frank King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Pre-Julian…As you probably know, the Romans earlier had a calendar that started at the Vernal Equinox. …with March 1st. That’s why September, October, November & December are so-named. …& so, resetting it wouldn’t be a problem. Just start the year as close as possible to the Vernal Equinox. You could do that by the FRC’s method: March 1st would be the day that contains the Vernal Equinox. …or better yet, the day that starts closest to Vernal Equinox. …the actual astronomical Vernal Equinox. …or an arithmetical-approximation. Most calendars us an approximation. e.g, The Gregorian rule was designed to approximate having the Vernal Equinox on March 21st, because that’s when it was in the Julian Calendar. You could just say that, the calendar’s first year starts at that year’s Vernal Equinox. & that each year starts on the day that starts closest to N days after the previous one. …where N is the actual length (including the fraction) of a Vernal Equinox tropical-year ( the duration between successive Vernal Equinoxes). That’s if you want to optimize for minimum calendrical-drift-rate of the Vernal Equinox. If you want to minimize the average calendrical-drift over all the year’s days, then use, for N, the length of the Mean Tropical Year. It’s about 365.2422 days, but you could look it up for more accuracy. Likewise, the length of the Vernal Equinox tropical year can be looked up. BTW, the tropical year’s length, reckoned at different Solar ecliptic longitudes, differs due to precession of the equinoxes & the ellipticity of our orbit. The tropical year-lengths are all gradually changing, largely because of precision of the apsides. Currently, the most nearly constant-length tropical year is the north solstice tropical year. I.e. the summer solstice of the Nortern Hemispher On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 5:49 AM Jack Aubert wrote: > Michael, > > > > I don’t think anybody is seriously contemplating calendar reform. I got a > copy of the English version of the French Republican calendar from Frank > King and It is hanging on a wall in my house. I love it because it is > historically interesting and, in retrospect, amusingly goofy.The names > of the months were parodied by contemporaneous English writers as > adjectives like “sneezy, chilly, and breezy.” I would actually love to > have a French version if anybody publishes one. It would have to retain > the juxtaposition of the normal calendar with the FRC calendar so you can > tell what today’s day and month would have been called. > > > > I wonder if anybody can figure out a way to juxtapose a pre-Julian Roman > calendar onto a modern calendar. I think it would have to be arbitrarily > reset somehow rather than fast forwarded. > > > > Jack Aubert > > > > *From:* sundial *On Behalf Of *Michael > Ossipoff > *Sent:* Saturday, September 17, 2022 9:02 PM > *To:* fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it > *Cc:* Sundial sundiallist > *Subject:* Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231 > > > > . > > The first thing I want to emphasize is that calendar-reform is not going > to happen. What to do? Just deal with the calendar that we have…the one > that we’ve had for two millennia.(…but with its Gregorian-modernized > leapyear-system). Don’t waste your time on calendar-reform, because, for > one thing, it isn’t going to happen. > > . > > But suppose that there’s an alternative calendar that you like. Calendar > reform advocates are notoriously un-cooperative among eachother, & that > further eliminates any chance of reform. But, even if the calendar were > changed, then with the many different proposals around, what is the chance > that the one that you’d like would be the one that somehow got adopted? > Zilch. So that’s another reason to forget calendar-reform & just deal with > the calendar that we have, the 2000-year-old Roman Calendar. > > . > > The OP was advocating for the French Republican Calendar, translated into > your particular country’s language. > > . > > …but would its seasons be relevant to those who reside south of the > equator, or in the tropical regions? No. > > . > > It would be a seasonal calendar based on the seasons of one particular > lat-band. Hardly something that could be called internationally-fair or > meaningful. > > . > > But let’s look at some other attributes of the French Republican Calendar > (FRC): > > . > > It starts its year at the Autumnal Equinox, for those north of the > equator. (A more generally meaningful name for that equinox would be the > Southward-Equinox.) > > . > > Why? Well, the French Republican government started around that time of > the year. That was a commendable government, & an improvement on what it > replaced, but is it
RE: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Michael, I don’t think anybody is seriously contemplating calendar reform. I got a copy of the English version of the French Republican calendar from Frank King and It is hanging on a wall in my house. I love it because it is historically interesting and, in retrospect, amusingly goofy.The names of the months were parodied by contemporaneous English writers as adjectives like “sneezy, chilly, and breezy.” I would actually love to have a French version if anybody publishes one. It would have to retain the juxtaposition of the normal calendar with the FRC calendar so you can tell what today’s day and month would have been called. I wonder if anybody can figure out a way to juxtapose a pre-Julian Roman calendar onto a modern calendar. I think it would have to be arbitrarily reset somehow rather than fast forwarded. Jack Aubert From: sundial On Behalf Of Michael Ossipoff Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2022 9:02 PM To: fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it Cc: Sundial sundiallist Subject: Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231 . The first thing I want to emphasize is that calendar-reform is not going to happen. What to do? Just deal with the calendar that we have…the one that we’ve had for two millennia.(…but with its Gregorian-modernized leapyear-system). Don’t waste your time on calendar-reform, because, for one thing, it isn’t going to happen. . But suppose that there’s an alternative calendar that you like. Calendar reform advocates are notoriously un-cooperative among eachother, & that further eliminates any chance of reform. But, even if the calendar were changed, then with the many different proposals around, what is the chance that the one that you’d like would be the one that somehow got adopted? Zilch. So that’s another reason to forget calendar-reform & just deal with the calendar that we have, the 2000-year-old Roman Calendar. . The OP was advocating for the French Republican Calendar, translated into your particular country’s language. . …but would its seasons be relevant to those who reside south of the equator, or in the tropical regions? No. . It would be a seasonal calendar based on the seasons of one particular lat-band. Hardly something that could be called internationally-fair or meaningful. . But let’s look at some other attributes of the French Republican Calendar (FRC): . It starts its year at the Autumnal Equinox, for those north of the equator. (A more generally meaningful name for that equinox would be the Southward-Equinox.) . Why? Well, the French Republican government started around that time of the year. That was a commendable government, & an improvement on what it replaced, but is its commemoration really what we need as the basis of our year-start choice? . There are good arguments for starting the year at the northern-hemisphere’s Vernal-Equinox, Winter-Solstice, or Summer-Solstice...or at the ancient Celts’ year-start at their Samhain holiday, which corresponds to our Holloween...or at the start of October, the Roman month that contains Samhain...or at the start of Scorpio the ecliptic-month that contains Samhain. But I’ll spare you the year-start discussion, because, for one thing there isn’t going to be a new calendar. . Resuming the attributes of the FRC: . The FRC is a year of 12 months of exactly 30 days each. Seems like a nice aesthetic simplification. But it leaves 5 or 6 days that aren’t any day of the week, & don’t belong to any month …not so neat after-all. . Days that aren’t any day-of-the-week are called “blank-days”. They’re a mess, & that’s too obvious to need any explanation. . But, whatever reform-calendar you might like, its unlikely that it would be the one adopted, among the many proposals. …as if there were even any chance of any new calendar being adopted anyway. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
Well, sundials often have solar-declination lines, & the old sundials (& the best modern ones too) often use those declination-lines to demarcate the ecliptic-months (the astrologers’ tropical-signs, from Aries to Pisces), labeled with the old symbols for them. . So that subject is certainly not off-topic here. . About solar-declination: . During the waxing-half of the year (…from Winter-Solstice to Summer-Solstice) increasing Solar declination is the most relevant calendrical numerical fact. I like to announce, at forums, when the Solar-declination passes certain landmarks. . For example, during the first waxing astronomical quarter there are days when the Solar declination has gone 1/3, 1/2, & 2/3 of the way from its Winter-Solstice value to its Spring-Equinox value. . Those three significant transitional days are all in February. . And, during the 2nd waxing astronomical quarter, there are days when the Solar declination has gone `1/3, 1/2, & 2/3 of the way from its Spring-Equinox value to its Summer-Solstice Value. . Very nearly, those three transitional days are all in April (the 2/3 point is actually usually in the very first days of May). . So, for Solar declination, in the 1st & 2nd waxing quarters respectively, February & April are the significant transitional-months for Solar declination. . Well, the Romans, too, felt that February was a significant seasonal transitional month, which is why they had the Februa celebration over that period.…because they regarded the Februa time to be so significant that they later designated a month to encompass it…February. . April is pretty much symmetrically across the equinox from February, due to the Roman months having roughly equal length. …& so, just as February is the transitional month in the 1st waxing quarter, so April is the transitional month in the 2nd waxing quarter. . Much has been written, by Spencer, Leigh Hunt & other early authors, about the unique characters of February & April. As we all know, the first signs of approaching Spring are in February, the first refreshingly-nice days. . April is the month when genuine Spring tentatively begins to start. . The ancient Celts celebrated their mid-quarter seasonal-holiday of Imbolc…a celebration of the beginning of that significant transitional period in the 1st waxing-quarter. . The Celts also celebrated another mid-quarter seasonal holiday, Beltane, in the early first days of our May. … i.e. immediately after April’s modest & tentative beginning of Spring. Beltane celebrates the time when full Spring is here. . Imbolc is very close to the day when the Solar declination is 1/3 of the way from its Winter-Solstice value to its Spring-Equinox value. Beltane is even closer to the day when the Solar declination is 2/3 of the way from its Spring-Equinox value to its Summer-Solstice value. . So, whether judged by Solar declination, or by seasonal nature & character, Imbolc & Beltane mark the ends of the transition, from the first signs of improvement from unmitigated winter, up to the arrival of full Spring. . The ancient Celts considered the mid-quarter holidays, which included Imbolc, Beltane & Samhain, to be their favorite seasonal-holidays. . (The other of the 4 Celtic mid-quarter holidays is Lughnasadh, at the beginning of our August, typically very close to the year’s peak temperature.) . It’s because of the delightful transitional-months, February & April, that I like our Roman Calendar, and don’t wish to change it. . But that’s just for the waxing quarters. . Right now we aren’t in the waxing-quarters. We’re in the first waning-quarter, near to that quarter’s end. . During this waning half of the year, it seems to me that the old ecliptic-months (the astrologers’ tropical signs) are more relevant & significant. . As I mentioned, this is relevant to sundials, because old sundials often use their declination-lines to demarcate the ecliptic-months. . Each ecliptic-month is a third of an astronomical quarter. For example, the current ecliptic month of Virgo is the last 3rd of the first waning astronomical-quarter. . On September 23rd, at 3:36 a.m. PDT, the ecliptic-month of Libra will begin. . Libra is the 1st third of the 2nd waning quarter. Thus, the ecliptic-months, dividing the astronomical-quarters into 3rds, are the months that neatly divide the seasonal year. I prefer them, in this waning half of the year, as indication of where we are in the seasonal year. . I hasten to emphasize that the ecliptic-months weren’t designed to be a civil-calendar. Civil-calendars are day-count calendars. The astronomical quarters & their divisions, the ecliptic-months, are based on the Sun’s ecliptic-longitude, rather being defined by a day-count. . But, though the ecliptic-months aren’t designed, intended or offered as a civil-calendar, they still, to me, make more sense as the way of saying where we are in this waning half of the year. .
Re: Republican Calendar, Year 231
. The first thing I want to emphasize is that calendar-reform is not going to happen. What to do? Just deal with the calendar that we have…the one that we’ve had for two millennia.(…but with its Gregorian-modernized leapyear-system). Don’t waste your time on calendar-reform, because, for one thing, it isn’t going to happen. . But suppose that there’s an alternative calendar that you like. Calendar reform advocates are notoriously un-cooperative among eachother, & that further eliminates any chance of reform. But, even if the calendar were changed, then with the many different proposals around, what is the chance that the one that you’d like would be the one that somehow got adopted? Zilch. So that’s another reason to forget calendar-reform & just deal with the calendar that we have, the 2000-year-old Roman Calendar. . The OP was advocating for the French Republican Calendar, translated into your particular country’s language. . …but would its seasons be relevant to those who reside south of the equator, or in the tropical regions? No. . It would be a seasonal calendar based on the seasons of one particular lat-band. Hardly something that could be called internationally-fair or meaningful. . But let’s look at some other attributes of the French Republican Calendar (FRC): . It starts its year at the Autumnal Equinox, for those north of the equator. (A more generally meaningful name for that equinox would be the Southward-Equinox.) . Why? Well, the French Republican government started around that time of the year. That was a commendable government, & an improvement on what it replaced, but is its commemoration really what we need as the basis of our year-start choice? . There are good arguments for starting the year at the northern-hemisphere’s Vernal-Equinox, Winter-Solstice, or Summer-Solstice...or at the ancient Celts’ year-start at their Samhain holiday, which corresponds to our Holloween...or at the start of October, the Roman month that contains Samhain...or at the start of Scorpio the ecliptic-month that contains Samhain. But I’ll spare you the year-start discussion, because, for one thing there isn’t going to be a new calendar. . Resuming the attributes of the FRC: . The FRC is a year of 12 months of exactly 30 days each. Seems like a nice aesthetic simplification. But it leaves 5 or 6 days that aren’t any day of the week, & don’t belong to any month …not so neat after-all. . Days that aren’t any day-of-the-week are called “blank-days”. They’re a mess, & that’s too obvious to need any explanation. . But, whatever reform-calendar you might like, its unlikely that it would be the one adopted, among the many proposals. …as if there were even any chance of any new calendar being adopted anyway. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
