Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick

[Craig Woodward]

To those saying this doesn't belong on a support list:

I normally would agree.  But in this case, there's no other real channel to 
discuss things like this with those that have the (possible) power to do 
anything about it.  Clearly FIC has washed their hands of this, since they're 
only supporting the hardware for 2 weeks after purchase "in case of DOA".  Any 
solution that's going to come is going to come as software, if it comes at all.

 "Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu)"  wrote: 
>There still people using GTA01

I understand that... My issue is that there isn't a stable base that loads and 
works as a phone for ANY Neo model.  There's no image that I can load that will 
work reliably as a phone for 24 hours, even if it's plugged in to a wall 
outlet.  Not a battery life issue, not a power save issue, just a stability 
issue.  Within 24 hours (usually less), either I can not make a call, can not 
receive a call, and/or can not use SMS.

You say to put this into the ticket system, but it's already there.  I added 3 
tickets months ago, and ALL are still untouched.  I would have entered more, 
but many would have been duplicates, which I wanted to avoid.  There are 
thousands of tickets in the system, many of them listed as "new" despite being 
months old.

A prime example is the one I sited above, bug #1662, "[GSM] not working 
properly after x hours of usage".  This is a basic thing for a phone to do, but 
it's been waiting to be seen since 7/23/08.  This is not acceptable for any 
cell phone, but shows no signs of being fixed any time soon.

>What if we use montavista/windriver/wince/whatever make a device first then 
>release(open) crappy/ok linux kernel, it won't be Openmoko.

I think that's the issue here... Open source doesn't mean throw the hardware 
and docs out to the planet and they'll write stuff for you. Open source needs a 
stable base to work from.  OM has provided a stable base for the CPU (via ARM 
repositories), and arguably the video device.  But at least one key device 
(GSM) has had several stability issues, and ironically that's the one part of 
OM that is NOT open source.  Another part that has issues that are know is wifi 
(needing reboot to connect to a second AP?), not to mention issues surrounding 
power save and battery charging.

> We are sorry if FR make you think as expensive brick

It cost $400 and can't be used as a phone when the page I bought it from said 
it was a consumer ready phone.  If FIC were in the US they'd have a class 
action suit on their hands by now for false advertising.  Instead, they will 
(maybe) produce GTA03 and be shocked when they get almost no sales because 
people look it up and see the failure of the past 2 devices.  And all the open 
source nay-sayers will collectively say "told you so" and write glowing 
articles about the death of open source for phones.



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Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick

[Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu)]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Craig-

There are some points I want to explain.

> B> My point wasn't to LOSE more money by selling to you for $10.  My point in 
> selling now is to try to not get screwed a second time when OM drops support 
> for it, like they did for the GTA01 last month.

If OM ourselves have un-limited resource, we want push each device using
latest kernel with most updated driver patch, and could synchronized all
 developer effort into 1 distro. But people have their favorite
collection, like GTA01 still some people's favorite because it has
faster graphics response time. There still people using GTA01, also
distro supported (like beartech's SHR). IF you have questions, could
still post on kernel/devel list, people might could provide more
solutions there.

> I didn't buy this phone as a gadget to work on for months that MIGHT 
> eventually make a nice GPS. For half the price I could have gotten a real 
> open source kit and the parts to put together something like this, minus GSM. 
>  Something with a REAL SDK, fully open and STABLE source, and support from 
> the company that sold it to me. 

Some essential difference Openmoko with other device:

A company want to provide a open-sourced device, could have closed
development process first, fork linux kernel with their tree, have
something tweak/workaround at kernel/device driver. And release their
stable build (boot/kernel/rootfs) and SDK. Then stay the fork, mostly,
do not need/want/put resource into upstream.

Openmoko release the source before product release (no matter GTA01/02
or 03), community people who using similar platform could also benefit
from the start. And we keep tracking latest kernel with our device, and
 toolchain/other needs also evolve with community needs. And try to
upstream if possible. And we open hardware schematics for people want to
 know more about design or potential hardware issue. We hope that our
effort that also helps open source community more understanding device
development and also knowing/improve issue and fix it.

What if we use montavista/windriver/wince/whatever make a device first
then release(open) crappy/ok linux kernel, it won't be Openmoko.

> I bought this to use as a phone that I could get into, add to, and modify if 
> I wanted to.  That's how FIC marketed it, as a consumer ready device, open 
> source, with MAYBE a small power issue in that it wasn't supporting stand by 
> mode.  OM wasn't it's own entity, or if it was that wasn't made clear.

We are sorry if people not satisfy our products in every standards, our
mistake/argument also all public.

> I'm just pissed off that I spent $400 on a device that was supposed to be my 
> next phone, and 8 months later it's still sitting in a box because it's not 
> usable as a normal daily phone.  And it doesn't help that people keep saying 
> the FreeRunner was marketed as a development platform, when it clearly wasn't.

We are sorry if FR make you think as expensive brick, If you have
usability issue, could go to support.openmoko.com and open ticket, we
could help you there.

Regards,

Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu)
Openmoko, Inc.
Support
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Re: [2008.12] ssh instability

[Robin Paulson]

2009/1/7 Joachim Ott :
> 2009/1/7 Robin Paulson 
>>
>> i'm having a lot of problems with my ssh connection over usb - it
>> usually takes several attempts to connect, and
>> will hang mid-way through operations very often
>>
>> sometimes un-plugging and re-plugging usb will sort it, sometimes
>> leaving it for a minute or two, or suspending and resuming. sometimes
>> it takes a reboot
>>
>> is this a known problem with the release, or more likely some specific
>> problem here? it worked great with 2008.9, i never had a single
>> problem
>
> Does "ssh -v r...@neo 2>ssh.log" give you a hint, when the error occurs?

yeah, that hangs too, and writes nothing to the log file

the phone itself doesn't hang, and i can run any apps as normal, but
they won't download data - i tested tangogps, and it wouldn't get
tiles

so, i tried

sudo ifdown usb0
sudo ifup usb0

and everything worked fine after that, so i figure it's the networking
on the ubuntu side. any suggestions how to fix it?

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Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick

[Lucas Lacroix]

> I'm just pissed off that I spent $400 on a device that was supposed to be
> my next phone, and 8 months later it's still sitting in a box because it's
> not usable as a normal daily phone.  And it doesn't help that people keep
> saying the FreeRunner was marketed as a development platform, when it
> clearly wasn't.
>
> I completely agree with you. I was also under the impression that the FR
unit was ready for general use, WHICH IT IS NOT! However, I don't believe
this thread belongs on the support forums.

Here's a tiny rant anyways, in case someone cares:
BEGIN RANT
I had been follow the OM initiative since the GTAv1 came out. I had even
attempted to get my hands on one, and I'm glad I failed.
When the GTAv2 came out, it most certainly was marketed as ready for the
masses; translation "The software is usable, but may have bugs (ie. beta
quality). However, the hardware is stable." Clearly, the initiative was to
sell as many "broken" phones(these ARE phones, remember) as possible to
get the income to maybe, if "we" feel like it, make a final product.
Although nothing specifically says that the phone works, according to US
consumer rights laws, the phone is supposed to be marketed as
developmental/beta, which it is not.

Please note: NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, on the OpenMoko.com web-site says
ANYTHING about the phone not being useable for day to day use. In fact, they
suggest Qtopia software for day to day use, which is only slightly more
useable, but is still held back by the lack of standby.

Here's the product Q&A: http://www.openmoko.com/product-qa.html
Here's the technical specs: http://www.openmoko.com/product.html

OM was happy enough to offer to help me with my battery issue, but I am
still very disappointed in this product.
I'm actually thinking of scrapping the idea of using this phone because of
it's pure unusability. In the 6 months since I've owned my phone, I have
seen no improvement to the "phone" like qualities of the device. I'm
sometimes able to use it to make/receive calls, other times I'd be better
off with a tin can and string. Sometimes I can send/receive text messages,
other times I should invest in a stamp.

END RANT

I would like to see OM make a strong effort to (not in any order):
1) Fix APM so that the phone can go to standby, but still receive calls and
texts (currently, it's very unreliable)
2) Fix the Black/White screen when returning from suspend issue (makes the
phone unusable)
3) Patch the PMU so that it can charge from off under most circumstances; I
understand that after the backup battery drains, the registers return to
their defaults, however, I've also been told that it takes up to 2 days to
drain the backup, which should give most everyone a chance to plug in their
phone (I still do not understand why plugging in the device causes a power
on event...)
4) Make the phone power off when you reach some minimal power level (say <4%
of capacity)

In the past six months I have seen: boot times decrease (hooray, but I could
have lived otherwise) and the White screen issue turn into a Black screen
issue (improved?!?).

If you're reading this line, thanks for making it through the rant.

-Luke
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Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick

[Ian Darwin]

Craig Woodward wrote:
 > [a lot of stuff that got cropped]

Because I already have one.

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Re: [2008.12] ssh instability

[Paul]

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Robin Paulson  wrote:
> right. how do i reset the usb connection?
>

sudo ifdown usb0
sudo ifup usb0

Note I've done the first step in this URL to define usb0
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Networking#Debian.2C_Ubuntu_and_others

-- 
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Email - pault...@gmail.com

There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through
which he could realize his conception of the beautiful.
Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray

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Re: [2008.12] ssh instability

[Robin Paulson]

2009/1/8 Paul :
> I'm using Kubuntu 8.10.  When the connection hung, I would kill the
> window (Konsole).  I would have to reset the USB connection before it
> worked again.  A reboot was unnecessary.

right. how do i reset the usb connection?

if it hangs i sometimes have to end the terminal session before i can
reconnect; on other occasions, leaving it for while will sort it

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Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick

[Paul]

I've found the gps quite nice, it takes some work to get it working.
It is doable.

I would hold off selling it until Koolu releases their android port.
Their beta is already almost on par with 2008.12.  I think if they
resolved the calypso issue and improved audio quality, the Freerunner
would be a viable phone.


On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Craig Woodward  wrote:
>  Ian Darwin  wrote:
> You accuse me of mincing words. Let's see if you'll stand by your words.
> If you really feel the device is that worthless, sell it to me for $10.00.
> Final offer.
> =
>
> Ok:
> A> Learn to crop your replies...
> B> My point wasn't to LOSE more money by selling to you for $10.  My point in 
> selling now is to try to not get screwed a second time when OM drops support 
> for it, like they did for the GTA01 last month.
> C> If you think it's such a great "phone", why not buy it from me for full 
> price?  Clearly if it's so great, you'll have no problem re-selling it.  
> Didn't think so...
>
> I didn't buy this phone as a gadget to work on for months that MIGHT 
> eventually make a nice GPS. For half the price I could have gotten a real 
> open source kit and the parts to put together something like this, minus GSM. 
>  Something with a REAL SDK, fully open and STABLE source, and support from 
> the company that sold it to me.
>
> I bought this to use as a phone that I could get into, add to, and modify if 
> I wanted to.  That's how FIC marketed it, as a consumer ready device, open 
> source, with MAYBE a small power issue in that it wasn't supporting stand by 
> mode.  OM wasn't it's own entity, or if it was that wasn't made clear.
>
> Now FIC has shifted ALL responsibility off to OM.  OM says they're not 
> focused on the GTA02, but are marketing to "future phones", like the GTA03.  
> They've also completely dropped support for the GTA01.  And core 
> functionality on ALL Neos, like making and receiving calls and SMS, is still 
> unreliable.
>
> The FreeRunner wasn't marketed as a prototype device.  It was marketed as 
> consumer ready, and it's not there, and doesn't appear to be getting there 
> any time soon, if at all.  Saying OM never said the software was ready 
> doesn't change how it was marketed, or the fact that OM was initially formed 
> and funded by FIC to develop software for it's phone.
>
> I'm just pissed off that I spent $400 on a device that was supposed to be my 
> next phone, and 8 months later it's still sitting in a box because it's not 
> usable as a normal daily phone.  And it doesn't help that people keep saying 
> the FreeRunner was marketed as a development platform, when it clearly wasn't.
>
>
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>



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which he could realize his conception of the beautiful.
Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray

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Re: [2008.12] ssh instability

[Paul]

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Robin Paulson  wrote:
> when i was using it last night, nothing would resurrect the connection
> until i re-booted the laptop, then it worked fine again. for a short
> time

I'm using Kubuntu 8.10.  When the connection hung, I would kill the
window (Konsole).  I would have to reset the USB connection before it
worked again.  A reboot was unnecessary.

-- 
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Email - pault...@gmail.com

There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through
which he could realize his conception of the beautiful.
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Re: [2008.12] ssh instability

[Robin Paulson]

2009/1/8 Marc Rios :
> Can it be maybe when the phone is suspended? It pass to me some times, but
> if you disable the suspend it goes correct...

no, i turned off auto-suspend. it does seem to get worse over time
though. when i first connect, it's generally ok. if i leave it for a
while, problems are more likely to occur

>> >> Does "ssh -v r...@neo 2>ssh.log" give you a hint, when the error
>> >> occurs?

i'll try this when i get home tonight

>> And here I was blaming it on Ubuntu.  I've noticed that when it happens
>> the
>> IP on usb0 on the HOST is lost - this suggests to me that it's NOT just
>> losing the network link, certainly not just SSH, but rather that the USB
>> connection itself is dropping out momentarily.

yes, i'm using ubuntu 8.10 and the hated networkmanager too, but it
worked fine with 2008.9 and 8.10

when i was using it last night, nothing would resurrect the connection
until i re-booted the laptop, then it worked fine again. for a short
time

i'm wondering if the problem is not with the phone, but networking on my laptop

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Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick

[Craig Woodward]

 Ian Darwin  wrote: 
You accuse me of mincing words. Let's see if you'll stand by your words. 
If you really feel the device is that worthless, sell it to me for $10.00.
Final offer.
=

Ok:
A> Learn to crop your replies...
B> My point wasn't to LOSE more money by selling to you for $10.  My point in 
selling now is to try to not get screwed a second time when OM drops support 
for it, like they did for the GTA01 last month.
C> If you think it's such a great "phone", why not buy it from me for full 
price?  Clearly if it's so great, you'll have no problem re-selling it.  Didn't 
think so...

I didn't buy this phone as a gadget to work on for months that MIGHT eventually 
make a nice GPS. For half the price I could have gotten a real open source kit 
and the parts to put together something like this, minus GSM.  Something with a 
REAL SDK, fully open and STABLE source, and support from the company that sold 
it to me. 

I bought this to use as a phone that I could get into, add to, and modify if I 
wanted to.  That's how FIC marketed it, as a consumer ready device, open 
source, with MAYBE a small power issue in that it wasn't supporting stand by 
mode.  OM wasn't it's own entity, or if it was that wasn't made clear.

Now FIC has shifted ALL responsibility off to OM.  OM says they're not focused 
on the GTA02, but are marketing to "future phones", like the GTA03.  They've 
also completely dropped support for the GTA01.  And core functionality on ALL 
Neos, like making and receiving calls and SMS, is still unreliable.

The FreeRunner wasn't marketed as a prototype device.  It was marketed as 
consumer ready, and it's not there, and doesn't appear to be getting there any 
time soon, if at all.  Saying OM never said the software was ready doesn't 
change how it was marketed, or the fact that OM was initially formed and funded 
by FIC to develop software for it's phone.

I'm just pissed off that I spent $400 on a device that was supposed to be my 
next phone, and 8 months later it's still sitting in a box because it's not 
usable as a normal daily phone.  And it doesn't help that people keep saying 
the FreeRunner was marketed as a development platform, when it clearly wasn't.


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Re: [2008.12] ssh instability

[Paul]

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Marc Rios  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Can it be maybe when the phone is suspended? It pass to me some times, but
> if you disable the suspend it goes correct...

Nope, the phone doesn't go into suspend.
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Re: [2008.12] ssh instability

[Marc Rios]

Hi,

Can it be maybe when the phone is suspended? It pass to me some times, but
if you disable the suspend it goes correct...

--
Marc Rios

Nota: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.es.html


On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Joel Newkirk  wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 10:21:31 -0500, Paul  wrote:
> > I can also confirm this.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Joachim Ott 
> > wrote:
> >> 2009/1/7 Robin Paulson 
> >>>
> >>> i'm having a lot of problems with my ssh connection over usb - it
> >>> usually takes several attempts to connect, and
> >>> will hang mid-way through operations very often
> >>>
> >>> sometimes un-plugging and re-plugging usb will sort it, sometimes
> >>> leaving it for a minute or two, or suspending and resuming. sometimes
> >>> it takes a reboot
> >>>
> >>> is this a known problem with the release, or more likely some specific
> >>> problem here? it worked great with 2008.9, i never had a single
> >>> problem
> >>
> >> Does "ssh -v r...@neo 2>ssh.log" give you a hint, when the error
> occurs?
>
>
> And here I was blaming it on Ubuntu.  I've noticed that when it happens the
> IP on usb0 on the HOST is lost - this suggests to me that it's NOT just
> losing the network link, certainly not just SSH, but rather that the USB
> connection itself is dropping out momentarily.
>
> j
>
> --
> Joel Newkirk
> http://jthinks.com  (blog)
> http://newkirk.us/om (FR stuff)
>
>
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Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick / pcf50633 defaults

[Mike Montour]

Andy Green wrote:

> There's two interesting ideas from Mike though, one is that disable USB
> insert as ON will help by giving longer for VB_SYS to charge and the
> other is leave charger enabled.  For both of these, they are defeated
> (USB insert is ON action, charger disabled) by NOPOWER and we have no
> control then. 

I'm not considering the NOPOWER case, because as you point out there is 
nothing that can be done in software to help with that problem.

Another software workaround for this issue is to never let the main 
battery drain into the cutoff state. The PMU can generate a low-battery 
interrupt. If the FR gets this interrupt, it can re-program the PMU with 
safe settings and then immediately power off the main device and the 
Calypso. The battery will still drain a bit from leakage current and 
self-discharge, but at a much slower rate.

That's the simple version - more work is needed to handle cases like 
hot-swapping batteries while the device is plugged into external power 
(which could also generate a low-battery signal). There should also be 
an opportunity for userspace to do a clean shutdown of the device when 
the battery gets low, but before it reaches the critically-low level to 
trigger an immediate shutdown.

I have not looked at any recent kernels or u-boots (for several months) 
to see if this has already been implemented. It's somewhere on my to-do 
list.


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Re: [2008.12] ssh instability

[Joel Newkirk]

On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 10:21:31 -0500, Paul  wrote:
> I can also confirm this.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Joachim Ott 
> wrote:
>> 2009/1/7 Robin Paulson 
>>>
>>> i'm having a lot of problems with my ssh connection over usb - it
>>> usually takes several attempts to connect, and
>>> will hang mid-way through operations very often
>>>
>>> sometimes un-plugging and re-plugging usb will sort it, sometimes
>>> leaving it for a minute or two, or suspending and resuming. sometimes
>>> it takes a reboot
>>>
>>> is this a known problem with the release, or more likely some specific
>>> problem here? it worked great with 2008.9, i never had a single
>>> problem
>>
>> Does "ssh -v r...@neo 2>ssh.log" give you a hint, when the error occurs?


And here I was blaming it on Ubuntu.  I've noticed that when it happens the
IP on usb0 on the HOST is lost - this suggests to me that it's NOT just
losing the network link, certainly not just SSH, but rather that the USB
connection itself is dropping out momentarily.

j

-- 
Joel Newkirk
http://jthinks.com  (blog)
http://newkirk.us/om (FR stuff)


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Re: [2008.12] ssh instability

[Paul]

I can also confirm this.

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Joachim Ott  wrote:
> 2009/1/7 Robin Paulson 
>>
>> i'm having a lot of problems with my ssh connection over usb - it
>> usually takes several attempts to connect, and
>> will hang mid-way through operations very often
>>
>> sometimes un-plugging and re-plugging usb will sort it, sometimes
>> leaving it for a minute or two, or suspending and resuming. sometimes
>> it takes a reboot
>>
>> is this a known problem with the release, or more likely some specific
>> problem here? it worked great with 2008.9, i never had a single
>> problem
>
> Does "ssh -v r...@neo 2>ssh.log" give you a hint, when the error occurs?
>
>
>
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>



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Re: [2008.12] ssh instability

[Joachim Ott]

2009/1/7 Robin Paulson 

> i'm having a lot of problems with my ssh connection over usb - it
> usually takes several attempts to connect, and
> will hang mid-way through operations very often
>
> sometimes un-plugging and re-plugging usb will sort it, sometimes
> leaving it for a minute or two, or suspending and resuming. sometimes
> it takes a reboot
>
> is this a known problem with the release, or more likely some specific
> problem here? it worked great with 2008.9, i never had a single
> problem 


Does "ssh -v r...@neo 2>ssh.log" give you a hint, when the error occurs?
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