Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Yes, I've done the update. I downloaded the images from here http://shr.bearstech.com/shr-unstable/images/om-gta02/ and got the latest rootfs and UImage files. I have AT&T, perhaps this bug is carrier specific? -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 16:12, Paul wrote: > I am trying to figure out how to release calls, one would think it's > done by pressing the release button. > > Also, if I answer a call before it starts vibrating, it seems to > vibrate forever. It is fixed for few days. Do "opkg update; opkg upgrade". You are using shr-unstable, of course? ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
I am trying it out now. The distro seems to be more responsive (contacts, etc). I am trying to figure out how to release calls, one would think it's done by pressing the release button. Also, if I answer a call before it starts vibrating, it seems to vibrate forever. I have yet to test the text messages. On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Johny Tenfinger wrote: > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 19:42, Paul wrote: >> With SHR, it kept hanging on the receipt of text messages/phone calls. >> Have you encountered this problem and if so, how did you resolve it? > > I'm only opkg upgrading on unstable. quickdev is quickly fixing many > bugs in libframeworkd-phonegui-efl, about which you are talking - now > i don't have problems with smses. Only problem which i can see is non > working "service data" (USSD) window, but right now other > distributions are not supporting USSD at all ;) > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 19:42, Paul wrote: > With SHR, it kept hanging on the receipt of text messages/phone calls. > Have you encountered this problem and if so, how did you resolve it? I'm only opkg upgrading on unstable. quickdev is quickly fixing many bugs in libframeworkd-phonegui-efl, about which you are talking - now i don't have problems with smses. Only problem which i can see is non working "service data" (USSD) window, but right now other distributions are not supporting USSD at all ;) ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Johny Tenfinger wrote: > Install shr-unstable, apply FSO patch on echo and play with alsa state > files. Nothing more. With SHR, it kept hanging on the receipt of text messages/phone calls. Have you encountered this problem and if so, how did you resolve it? BTW, SHR has the best quality phone calls of all the distros I've encountered. The power consumption is also OK. What is keeping me from using it is the fact that it crashes on receiving phone calls/text messages. OM2008.x receives Text Messages and Phone calls OK, but the audio quality is not acceptable. Also, the battery life is a bit short. This of course is applying patches to both SHR and OM2008.12 -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
arne anka wrote: > > > for the rest of your posting: could you please stop right now? > the constant whining is jamming my inbox > > Sure, I was just looking for some confirmation, or even a timeline, for when these basic things might be there, or that lessons have been learnt and OM are on the case, whichever stack they choose to do it with. I'll shut up now though, and consider ebay. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2128845.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 17:21, Gothnet wrote: > Thanks, but it took months for this to even be addressed, and even now it's > not in there by default. As it's fundamental to a working phone it should > be. And from the threads I;ve found it doesn't actually help everyone. This command is added to FSO, but only on initialising modem. Patch on ml was adding it to starting every call. mickey don't want to add it do FSO before we will know, when this command is reseting. > I'm guessing English isn't your first language. Did you mean to be > insulting by calling me ignorant? Yes, English isn't my first language. And no! I don't want to insult anyone :) I only think, that people who are complaining on these topics, should try to fix it by themselves. As me. What works for me - later ;) > Either way this was addressed upthread, firstly that not all of these > issues are fixed and some are flat-out ignored, and secondly that no, I > and others were not expecting to have to be giving the phone daily > attention to get it and keep it in a state where it is useable as a daily > phone. A mobile is important to my life, but not as its central object. Yes, i know. Sometimes i'm using my old Nokia 6230i. But i know what i can expect from FreeRunner. And i knowed it also when i was buying it - in June. And i'm not disappointed. > There's a difference between getting a system, flashing software, applying > updates etc, and living with a mobile phone that fails to do anything > properly. I only flashed my Neo three times (except some testing flashes, like Android - but it was only to test it, not to use as phone). One with 2007.2, and two times with SHR (because in first i mixed repos and was too lazy to fix e fails ;)). So without one my fault - only two times. And with both systems i was happy (only with 2007.2, when i had few thousands smses in inbox, it was terrible slow) > Really? So we're right to distrust and dislike OM? Thanks for the > confirmation. By the way, back in July it wasn't easy to check. the mailing > list was full of praise and "OMG it works!" and the wiki was full of > interesting facts about things that *worked* in the various software > distributions. Because it works as expected. You are expecting more than it can do at the moment. And OM is doing sometimes stupid decisions. But not dislike them - only have some distance. > You have a responsive UI? Perfect sound? a fix for suspend/resume? No > white/blackscreen faults? No GSM buzz? No problems charging when it's dead? > No GSM bounce issues? No problems associating to multiple access points in > one session with wifi? etc SHR has very responsible UI. I was playing with alsamixer and have great sound now. No echo on other side. Suspend/resume is working reliably. I only had WSoD with andy-tracking, but i'm using 2.6.24 now and i don't have WSoD's and BSoD's. GSM buzz is no louder than on my Nokia 6230i. Never experienced 'bouinsing Calypso" bug, and #666 - so i didn't upgrade gsm firmware. With wifi - i don't know, i'm using only one access point at one place. Battery is working about 2 days. I have GTA02v5 with "Date code" 21.06.2008 > Well done, congrats, share the software and hardware schematic updates with > the rest of us please. And feed it back in to a reasonably easy to apply > image/distribution. Install shr-unstable, apply FSO patch on echo and play with alsa state files. Nothing more. > Besides which, most of the fixes seem to be a trade-off anyway. The first > solution for echo seemed to be to turn various volumes down, and then you > have a very quiet phone. The fix for the buzz is in hardware. The fix for > calypso seemed to be not to use its sleep feature , which is bad for power > consumption. It was first echo solution. Next are good ;) Buzz is hardware, yep. I'm lucky i don't have this problem. The same with calypso. > Yes, it was terribly foolish of us to buy into the idea of an open phone > running Linux that was being sold as ready for use. Terribly foolish. So buy Motorola U9. It's running Linux and it's ready for use. My girlfriend has one and she's happy with it ;p > Sorry, but this just annoys me, I wanted a phone that I could start projects > on, not a project that might one-day be a phone. So why have you buyed Neo FreeRunner? Have you tried software in emulator? I was doing it before i decided to buy it. I can't imagine that i will buy it without reading a lot and testing software. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
> not in there by default. As it's fundamental to a working phone it should > be. And from the threads I;ve found it doesn't actually help everyone. because the echo has many sources, the hw is only one -- the other is your location. even with my old phone i had echos sometimes which had to be attributed to the spot i were in. for the rest of your posting: could you please stop right now? the constant whining is jamming my inbox and nothing of what you (or others) were grumbling about is exactly new. in fact, the sdame stuff keeps to come up again and again and again. we all know what shortcomings the fr has, what could have been done better in the past and what should be done in the future -- there is absolutely NO NEED to repüeat that over and over again, just because there a few days nobody said that! i am sick and tired of people thinking thy have to take their personal disappointments to market every day, if you need to get rid of your disappointments join a fitness club, go in the woods and yell at squirrels or chop wood, but stop that constant annoying whining on this list (especially since it is a _support_ list, and that does not mean mental support). i bought the fr in june and i knew, it would be not totally ready for daily use, and yes, i was disappointed, that it did not even meet my low expectations -- but likewise i realized that it does not help anybody if i vented those feelings on the list. if you are not able to use the fr as intended, please sell it on ebay. but stop to fill up my (and others) inboxes with pointless and sickening complaints -- we heard them already and know every single one by heart and we are sure it will not help solve anything if you go on and on and on. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Johny Tenfinger wrote: > > > Ability to searching informations is neccesary with using FreeRunner. > (I think all of FR users should remember that) > Getting rid of echo on FSO is only one line added in some file. Search > for it. It works well for me. > > Tip? AT%N0173. > Second tip? This maillist. > > Good luck in searching. > Thanks, but it took months for this to even be addressed, and even now it's not in there by default. As it's fundamental to a working phone it should be. And from the threads I;ve found it doesn't actually help everyone. > It's very annoying to reading "GTA02 is now expensive brick", "GTA02 > unusable, bring me back my f***ing money blahjblahablh", "gta02 > lalalala" topics, where ignorant people are complaining about issues > in gta02... which works for me. > You only have to do less lazy ;) Or >> have more spare time. >> > > I'm guessing English isn't your first language. Did you mean to be > insulting by calling me ignorant? > > Either way this was addressed upthread, firstly that not all of these > issues are fixed and some are flat-out ignored, and secondly that no, I > and others were not expecting to have to be giving the phone daily > attention to get it and keep it in a state where it is useable as a daily > phone. A mobile is important to my life, but not as its central object. > > > It's neccesary with FreeRunner, you should know >> it before buying it. (how the hell have i known it before i buyed FR? >> i was only reading wiki and maillists!) > > There's a difference between getting a system, flashing software, applying > updates etc, and living with a mobile phone that fails to do anything > properly. > > Yes, marketing as "ready to use phone" was FIC/OM fault. > Believing in this marketing was your fault. It was easy to check. Really? So we're right to distrust and dislike OM? Thanks for the confirmation. By the way, back in July it wasn't easy to check. the mailing list was full of praise and "OMG it works!" and the wiki was full of interesting facts about things that *worked* in the various software distributions. Your "not working" Neos are your fault. Mine is working very well. How > it's possible? "Think about it, man!" (Tenacious D - Inward Singing > ;]) You have a responsive UI? Perfect sound? a fix for suspend/resume? No white/blackscreen faults? No GSM buzz? No problems charging when it's dead? No GSM bounce issues? No problems associating to multiple access points in one session with wifi? etc Well done, congrats, share the software and hardware schematic updates with the rest of us please. And feed it back in to a reasonably easy to apply image/distribution. Besides which, most of the fixes seem to be a trade-off anyway. The first solution for echo seemed to be to turn various volumes down, and then you have a very quiet phone. The fix for the buzz is in hardware. The fix for calypso seemed to be not to use its sleep feature , which is bad for power consumption. GTA01 was mainly for (hardware) developers. GTA02 is mainly for geeks. I'm a severe geek by the standards of most people I know, including many in the software industry. GTA03 looks promising, if only there won't be hardware issues. > > I knowed it before i buyed FreeRunner. And i'm only user. I'm > interested in Openmoko since few (2-4) month before FreeRunner was > released. But i was witting (? i don't know if it is correct word ;) ) > about issues with Neos. And that's why i'm happy with it. > > Most of you, who are shouting "it's a brick! it's a brick!" should buy > Android or Symbian, or even Windows Mobile based phone. Not Openmoko. > Think about it, again! ;] Yes, it was terribly foolish of us to buy into the idea of an open phone running Linux that was being sold as ready for use. Terribly foolish. Heh, i don't know if i say everythink i want. English is not my native > language and it was always problematic for me. As opposite to my Neo > ;) > > dos > > Sorry, but this just annoys me, I wanted a phone that I could start projects on, not a project that might one-day be a phone. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2128664.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
If you know the solution why you don't share with all? It will be another reason to afirm that FR is a good phone for geeks!! -- Marc Rios Nota: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.es.html On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Johny Tenfinger wrote: > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 16:36, Gothnet > wrote: > > > After a month and a half of people saying "I hate your new phone, I can > hear > > myself at full volume about a second after I speak" (some folks found it > > amusing), and then a few weeks of "God damn you freerunner, will you > please > > wake up when I get a call!" I had to stop as well, I rely on having a > mobile > > too much to be able to put up with it. > > > > Perfectly willing to try again, but I'm waiting or either a new android > > build or the next FSO milestone. > > Ability to searching informations is neccesary with using FreeRunner. > (I think all of FR users should remember that) > Getting rid of echo on FSO is only one line added in some file. Search > for it. It works well for me. > > Tip? AT%N0173. > Second tip? This maillist. > > Good luck in searching. > > It's very annoying to reading "GTA02 is now expensive brick", "GTA02 > unusable, bring me back my f***ing money blahjblahablh", "gta02 > lalalala" topics, where ignorant people are complaining about issues > in gta02... which works for me. You only have to do less lazy ;) Or > have more spare time. It's neccesary with FreeRunner, you should know > it before buying it. (how the hell have i known it before i buyed FR? > i was only reading wiki and maillists!) > > Yes, marketing as "ready to use phone" was FIC/OM fault. > Believing in this marketing was your fault. It was easy to check. > Your "not working" Neos are your fault. Mine is working very well. How > it's possible? "Think about it, man!" (Tenacious D - Inward Singing > ;]) > > GTA01 was mainly for (hardware) developers. GTA02 is mainly for geeks. > GTA03 looks promising, if only there won't be hardware issues. > > I knowed it before i buyed FreeRunner. And i'm only user. I'm > interested in Openmoko since few (2-4) month before FreeRunner was > released. But i was witting (? i don't know if it is correct word ;) ) > about issues with Neos. And that's why i'm happy with it. > > Most of you, who are shouting "it's a brick! it's a brick!" should buy > Android or Symbian, or even Windows Mobile based phone. Not Openmoko. > Think about it, again! ;] > > Heh, i don't know if i say everythink i want. English is not my native > language and it was always problematic for me. As opposite to my Neo > ;) > > dos > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 16:36, Gothnet wrote: > After a month and a half of people saying "I hate your new phone, I can hear > myself at full volume about a second after I speak" (some folks found it > amusing), and then a few weeks of "God damn you freerunner, will you please > wake up when I get a call!" I had to stop as well, I rely on having a mobile > too much to be able to put up with it. > > Perfectly willing to try again, but I'm waiting or either a new android > build or the next FSO milestone. Ability to searching informations is neccesary with using FreeRunner. (I think all of FR users should remember that) Getting rid of echo on FSO is only one line added in some file. Search for it. It works well for me. Tip? AT%N0173. Second tip? This maillist. Good luck in searching. It's very annoying to reading "GTA02 is now expensive brick", "GTA02 unusable, bring me back my f***ing money blahjblahablh", "gta02 lalalala" topics, where ignorant people are complaining about issues in gta02... which works for me. You only have to do less lazy ;) Or have more spare time. It's neccesary with FreeRunner, you should know it before buying it. (how the hell have i known it before i buyed FR? i was only reading wiki and maillists!) Yes, marketing as "ready to use phone" was FIC/OM fault. Believing in this marketing was your fault. It was easy to check. Your "not working" Neos are your fault. Mine is working very well. How it's possible? "Think about it, man!" (Tenacious D - Inward Singing ;]) GTA01 was mainly for (hardware) developers. GTA02 is mainly for geeks. GTA03 looks promising, if only there won't be hardware issues. I knowed it before i buyed FreeRunner. And i'm only user. I'm interested in Openmoko since few (2-4) month before FreeRunner was released. But i was witting (? i don't know if it is correct word ;) ) about issues with Neos. And that's why i'm happy with it. Most of you, who are shouting "it's a brick! it's a brick!" should buy Android or Symbian, or even Windows Mobile based phone. Not Openmoko. Think about it, again! ;] Heh, i don't know if i say everythink i want. English is not my native language and it was always problematic for me. As opposite to my Neo ;) dos ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Paul-10 wrote: > > The echo is on the other party's end. I can relate, who wants to hear > themselves echo along with weird buzzing? After so many complaints > from people I call or call me, I cannot in good conscience continue to > use this phone. > After a month and a half of people saying "I hate your new phone, I can hear myself at full volume about a second after I speak" (some folks found it amusing), and then a few weeks of "God damn you freerunner, will you please wake up when I get a call!" I had to stop as well, I rely on having a mobile too much to be able to put up with it. Perfectly willing to try again, but I'm waiting or either a new android build or the next FSO milestone. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2128453.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 01:12, Lucas Lacroix wrote: > I would like to see OM make a strong effort to (not in any order): > 1) Fix APM so that the phone can go to standby, but still receive calls and > texts (currently, it's very unreliable) > 2) Fix the Black/White screen when returning from suspend issue (makes the > phone unusable) > 3) Patch the PMU so that it can charge from off under most circumstances; I > understand that after the backup battery drains, the registers return to > their defaults, however, I've also been told that it takes up to 2 days to > drain the backup, which should give most everyone a chance to plug in their > phone (I still do not understand why plugging in the device causes a power > on event...) > 4) Make the phone power off when you reach some minimal power level (say <4% > of capacity) 1. Works for me. 2. Works for me. 3. Yes, it's not working for me ;P But I still have Nokia 6230i with battery, so that's no problem for me. 4. Works for me (configurable in Enlightenment) ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
The echo is on the other party's end. I can relate, who wants to hear themselves echo along with weird buzzing? After so many complaints from people I call or call me, I cannot in good conscience continue to use this phone. On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Marc Rios wrote: > I'm with QTOPIA extended. Which is the echo problem?? Who listen the echo? > The sound is not perfect at all but is functional. Functional is different from usable -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
I'm with QTOPIA extended. Which is the echo problem?? Who listen the echo? The sound is not perfect at all but is functional. -- Marc Rios Nota: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.es.html On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Paul wrote: > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Marc Rios wrote: > > Hi to all, > > > > All I wanted to say is that I'm working perfectly with FR. It's my daya > by > > day phone and works very well for me. I've been working with it one month > > and with QTOPIA works very well ;) > > > > Can you provide details on the distro (specific versions) you are > using? Any modifications? > > I tried Qtopia extended and there is the echo problem to contend with. > > Thanks. > -- > Paul > Email - pault...@gmail.com > > There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through > which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. > Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Marc Rios wrote: > Hi to all, > > All I wanted to say is that I'm working perfectly with FR. It's my daya by > day phone and works very well for me. I've been working with it one month > and with QTOPIA works very well ;) > Can you provide details on the distro (specific versions) you are using? Any modifications? I tried Qtopia extended and there is the echo problem to contend with. Thanks. -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Hi to all, All I wanted to say is that I'm working perfectly with FR. It's my daya by day phone and works very well for me. I've been working with it one month and with QTOPIA works very well ;) -- Marc Rios Nota: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.es.html On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Gothnet wrote: > > > > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)-2 wrote: > > > > > > if management had actually given "free reign"they would have said: > > > > make the phone boot in a reasonable time > > make it last at least 48hrs without needing a recharge > > make it reliably make and receive phone calls and sms's > > make it sane/possible to enter text for sms's and contact information > etc. > > make the other hardware function properly (wifi, gps, accelerometers) > > make some demo apps for the non-core hardware for a phone (gps, wifi, > > etc.) to > > show that it works and how to drive it. > > show us progress every 1 (or 2, 3 or 4) weeks with a new os image on a > > gta02. > > > > then sit back and let engineering do its job. the regular demos of "stuff > > moving along" (or a good explanation why you cant show anything > currently) > > would be the oversight needed to make sure engineers didn't stray > > off-track. > > > > > > Sounds like a great plan to me, and I hope something like it is adopted > over > the coming months. And probably strike the text entry line as there are > multiple keyboards. If none is perfect, so be it. > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2128125.html > Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)-2 wrote: > > > if management had actually given "free reign"they would have said: > > make the phone boot in a reasonable time > make it last at least 48hrs without needing a recharge > make it reliably make and receive phone calls and sms's > make it sane/possible to enter text for sms's and contact information etc. > make the other hardware function properly (wifi, gps, accelerometers) > make some demo apps for the non-core hardware for a phone (gps, wifi, > etc.) to > show that it works and how to drive it. > show us progress every 1 (or 2, 3 or 4) weeks with a new os image on a > gta02. > > then sit back and let engineering do its job. the regular demos of "stuff > moving along" (or a good explanation why you cant show anything currently) > would be the oversight needed to make sure engineers didn't stray > off-track. > > Sounds like a great plan to me, and I hope something like it is adopted over the coming months. And probably strike the text entry line as there are multiple keyboards. If none is perfect, so be it. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2128125.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 05:49:39 -0800 (PST) Gothnet babbled: > > > > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)-2 wrote: > > > > > > the real history is one of enigneers trying to push off the ever changing > > flavor of the month idea and trying to just get stuff to work. while > > kernel > > guys wrestled, userspace was being flung every which way... and not by me > > - not > > by harald. guess who was driving all the changes? you might want to dig up > > a > > bit more complete history before jumping to conclusions. :) > > > > > > Hey, no insult was implied and as a Software Engineer myself I know two > things - > > 1. Management are not only frequently wrong, but often difficult to persuade > otherwise > 2. If I'm given a free reign I'll go for stuff I'm interested in a find > stimulating > > My point is (and I hope I haven't missed the point of your comment when > stating this) that there doesn't seem to have been a consistent set of goals > or direction from the OM management or any particular focus (bar "Back to > Basics") to get the kernel and basic userspace functioning reliably, and > there does seem to have been a tendency to reinvent the wheel. And the > keyboard, the package manager yes - and these directives came from... management. engineering RESISTED or had the practical "lets use what we have and improve it as we go - some bits can be fixed/improved piecemeal, others need replacing in a bigger lump". but it means you can work on just getting something to work and then improve it as you go. i think that "given free reign" the enigneers would have done a much better job. much much much better. i tried my best to focus my efforts on doing things where my experience/knowledge would mean i can hit the ground running. fixing kernel suspend issues are not things i can hit the ground running on. but userspace suspend/resume infra i can - and i did (ompower). i spent a little while making a map navigation "widget" for diversity when that was all the rage. i worked on connman for wifi (the userspace bits for driving it) and finally got it to work - but was beginning to hit nasty wifi driver bugs. that was in addition to all the rest. i absolutely never spent 3 months on the keyboard - simply sean remembers a gap of 3 months and towards the end of those i did the keyboard - doing many other things prior to it. if management had actually given "free reign"they would have said: make the phone boot in a reasonable time make it last at least 48hrs without needing a recharge make it reliably make and receive phone calls and sms's make it sane/possible to enter text for sms's and contact information etc. make the other hardware function properly (wifi, gps, accelerometers) make some demo apps for the non-core hardware for a phone (gps, wifi, etc.) to show that it works and how to drive it. show us progress every 1 (or 2, 3 or 4) weeks with a new os image on a gta02. then sit back and let engineering do its job. the regular demos of "stuff moving along" (or a good explanation why you cant show anything currently) would be the oversight needed to make sure engineers didn't stray off-track. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)-2 wrote: > > > the real history is one of enigneers trying to push off the ever changing > flavor of the month idea and trying to just get stuff to work. while > kernel > guys wrestled, userspace was being flung every which way... and not by me > - not > by harald. guess who was driving all the changes? you might want to dig up > a > bit more complete history before jumping to conclusions. :) > > Hey, no insult was implied and as a Software Engineer myself I know two things - 1. Management are not only frequently wrong, but often difficult to persuade otherwise 2. If I'm given a free reign I'll go for stuff I'm interested in a find stimulating My point is (and I hope I haven't missed the point of your comment when stating this) that there doesn't seem to have been a consistent set of goals or direction from the OM management or any particular focus (bar "Back to Basics") to get the kernel and basic userspace functioning reliably, and there does seem to have been a tendency to reinvent the wheel. And the keyboard, the package manager -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2127948.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 04:40:25 -0800 (PST) Gothnet babbled: > By the way, the Q and A email/looking forward to 2009 announcement from Sean > Moss-Pultz just confirmed a lot of what I'd thought about the OM management > situation. Where we have things like: > > "People, like Harald and Raster, are given immense freedom to work on what > they feel is most important." > > And then a story about how 3+ months were spent reimplementing a > keyboard > Perhaps people like Harald and Raster need their priorities given a nudge by > OM management once in a while? You know what, I don't give a about > which keyboard is best for terminal use, when I can't reliably make and > receive a phonecall/SMS. maybe you should have read my reply. it wasn't 3 months. also note that i am not a kernel coder so just jumping in and adding more cooks into what was already in the hands of kernel devs woukld be silly given that there was a mountain of userspace stuff to solve. nor did i have gsm firmware in hand at any time. there were people dedicated to just these. 3 guys worked pretty exclusively on the kernel. another guy was the gsm firmware guy - another team was doing gsmd. what you got from sean was a very surface-level answer. the truth was that it was the engineers saying "lets just stop changing direction and make the damn thing work". when sean and wolfgang and will went "oh lets use qtopia - cant we just port it?" i was going "how about we just use the 2007.x base and finish it to working? replace 1 bit at a time over time - eg replace the wm and launcher, improve keyboard, replace dialler etc. keep gsmd and just work on it to get it functional - make power management work". months were sunk into diversity which was pretty much meant to ignore gsm/gprs except for using it to break the telcos network - diversity was all about wifi, voip etc. - you have no idea how much time and how many engineers were sunk into that that went nowhere. then a retrophone idea (which was meant to be the phone bit and was basically an afterthought after diversity) - which had no tie-in technically or really to real work (eg use 2007.x). then there came "now qtopia!" then that had to be ported to x11 (holger time), then integration of qtopia and normal x11 and window manager stuff needed doing (as qtopia really had no concept of a wm and was assuming it was in qws and without one, owning the screen). then came all the new ui designs that had to be "pixel perfect" implementations of flash stuff for the launcher and the whole desktop (not done by me) - even the font was specified and font sizes and positioning of stuff - when i remember saying "how about we just work with what already works- in the way it works and improve it over time". i distinctly remember advising against qtopia as it'd be a time sink to get to work (if trying to mix with x11) considerign a team was dedicated to gsmd and so much work had gone into 2007.x. of course as a result 2008.x which was meant to make gta02 "workable" used none of 2007.x thus everything was lost. mind you qtopia brought holger on board and that was a huge asset. dropping x11 wasn't an option as we'd tie ourselves to a little-used windowing system (in open source circles) and a toolkit pretty much moving all development to c++ and qt as well as forcing the GPL license on all developers (no freedom to use other licenses like bsd, mit-x11, etc. etc.) unless they paid up to trolltech (who now are owned by a direct competitor too - nokia) further narrowing the potential user and developer base - so the x11 port was pretty much a "no choice" if qtopia was on the cards. the real history is one of enigneers trying to push off the ever changing flavor of the month idea and trying to just get stuff to work. while kernel guys wrestled, userspace was being flung every which way... and not by me - not by harald. guess who was driving all the changes? you might want to dig up a bit more complete history before jumping to conclusions. :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Apologies for that, one more with formatting - Craig Woodward wrote: > > > I understand that... My issue is that there isn't a stable base that loads > and works as a phone for ANY Neo model. . > > ... > > And all the open source nay-sayers will collectively say "told you so" and > write glowing articles about the death of open source for phones. > > Yeah, it's a shame isn't it? I had high hopes too, but there are so many problems that I wouldn't advise any of my geek friends to buy one any time soon, and those are my geek friends let alone the normal ones! I probably wouldn't have bought one either if I'd realised that I'd be spending nearly £300 on something that's been sat on the side in the living room for a couple of months not doing anything. The major problem for me was that I assumed that the kernel and user space software would have the hardware interfaces right. I expected GSM to be there and stable, bluetooth and wifi just to work, GPRS and GPS to be there in principle but with some software needed. Stuff as basic as suspend and resume I never even thought about being a problem. Instead, what I get is a device that works when it feels like it, doesn't come back from suspend as often as one time in two, needs the battery popping out several times a day in order to get it to do any one of several basic things (come back from suspend, re-associate to wifi, reconnect to GSM), that runs out of battery in a matter of hours, echos like a *, doesn't wake up for calls, barely does GPRS, doesn't charge when dead As for support, well, support's fine, but i don't have the time to be applying new software patches and new config updates every day. It's not the geeky project I'd hoped for either. I wanted something that did the basics and I could add stuff to. By the way, the Q and A email/looking forward to 2009 announcement from Sean Moss-Pultz just confirmed a lot of what I'd thought about the OM management situation. Where we have things like: "People, like Harald and Raster, are given immense freedom to work on what they feel is most important." And then a story about how 3+ months were spent reimplementing a keyboard Perhaps people like Harald and Raster need their priorities given a nudge by OM management once in a while? You know what, I don't give a about which keyboard is best for terminal use, when I can't reliably make and receive a phonecall/SMS. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2127663.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Craig Woodward wrote: > > > I understand that... My issue is that there isn't a stable base that loads > and works as a phone for ANY Neo model. . > > ... > > And all the open source nay-sayers will collectively say "told you so" and > write glowing articles about the death of open source for phones. > > Yeah, it's a shame isn't it? I had high hopes too, but there are so many problems that I wouldn't advise any of my geek friends to buy one any time soon, and those are my geek friends let alone the normal ones! I probably wouldn't have bought one either if I'd realised that I'd be spending nearly £300 on something that's been sat on the side in the living room for a couple of months not doing anything. The major problem for me was that I assumed that the kernel and user space software would have the hardware interfaces right. I expected GSM to be there and stable, bluetooth and wifi just to work, GPRS and GPS to be there in principle but with some software needed. Stuff as basic as suspend and resume I never even thought about being a problem. Instead, what I get is a device that works when it feels like it, doesn't come back from suspend as often as one time in two, needs the battery popping out several times a day in order to get it to do any one of several basic things (come back from suspend, re-associate to wifi, reconnect to GSM), that runs out of battery in a matter of hours, echos like a *, doesn't wake up for calls, barely does GPRS, doesn't charge when dead As for support, well, support's fine, but i don't have the time to be applying new software patches and new config updates every day. It's not the geeky project I'd hoped for either. I wanted something that did the basics and I could add stuff to. By the way, the Q and A email/looking forward to 2009 announcement from Sean Moss-Pultz just confirmed a lot of what I'd thought about the OM management situation. Where we have things like: "People, like Harald and Raster, are given immense freedom to work on what they feel is most important." And then a story about how 3+ months were spent reimplementing a keyboard Perhaps people like Harald and Raster need their priorities given a nudge by OM management once in a while? You know what, I don't give a about which keyboard is best for terminal use, when I can't reliably make and receive a phonecall/SMS. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2127648.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Craig Woodward wrote: > And core functionality on ALL Neos, like making and receiving calls and > SMS, is still unreliable. i'm sorry, but i think that's unfair; my GTA02A6 has been my main phone since i bought it at the end of august 2008. you may never have been able to make things work for you, but it's wrong to say that core functionality on all neos is unreliable; it's fine on mine. 2008.08 definitely had problems filling that role; i wrote about my early configuration attempts at http://www.teaparty.net/technotes/openmoko.html . 2008.09 had problems, but nothing insoluble after the bouncing calypso problem was found and a workaround released. i decided my phone was ready for full-time use on 14.10.2008; the extensive list of customisations i had to make to it to render it suitable for full-time use is at http://www.teaparty.net/technotes/openmoko-2.html . 2008.12 + a little work is about as usable as 2008.09 + lots of work, but obviously a little work is easier than a lot of work. this writeup's at http://www.teaparty.net/technotes/openmoko-3.html . yes, the phone still has a couple of nasty kludges on it, and does go all silent and dead every few days. but i'm not getting reports from others that they can't reach me when they need to, and all my test calls and test texts of recent days (since i stabilised 2008.12) have gone through. my old nokia phone used to crash every few weeks anyway, so i don't regard that as a fatal flaw. > I'm just pissed off that I spent $400 on a device that was supposed to > be my next phone, and 8 months later it's still sitting in a box because > it's not usable as a normal daily phone. opinions will definitely vary, here. my wife, who like me is a unix sysadmin by profession, was very bullish on the OM at first - but two weeks ago declared she'd never use it again. she was having real problems with the message application under 2008.09, and it was the last straw for her; she went back to her nokia 6230i. (in fairness, i should note that she's back on again after i upgraded her to 2008.12 and is *cautiously* cheerful about the phone. but if it starts messing her around again she'll definitely put it back in the box.) so i can't say that it's usable *for you*. only you can know how much time is too much for you to invest in making a phone work. personally, i have a bunch of free-software-based devices (OM phone, rockbox audio player, linux laptop) and i expect to have to give them frequent attention, and love them despite their occasional tantrums. but that won't suit everyone. so do by all means say that the OM isn't what you were led to expect, and do by all means say that your OM requires more work than you are prepared to put into a phone. those are your calls. but don't say that the OM cannot be made suitable for use as a production phone, because some of us are using it just fine. -- Tom Yates - http://www.teaparty.net ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
"Lucas Lacroix" writes: > 4) Make the phone power off when you reach some minimal power level (say <4% > of capacity) As noted earlier, this part is very easy to do already. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
To those saying this doesn't belong on a support list: I normally would agree. But in this case, there's no other real channel to discuss things like this with those that have the (possible) power to do anything about it. Clearly FIC has washed their hands of this, since they're only supporting the hardware for 2 weeks after purchase "in case of DOA". Any solution that's going to come is going to come as software, if it comes at all. "Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu)" wrote: >There still people using GTA01 I understand that... My issue is that there isn't a stable base that loads and works as a phone for ANY Neo model. There's no image that I can load that will work reliably as a phone for 24 hours, even if it's plugged in to a wall outlet. Not a battery life issue, not a power save issue, just a stability issue. Within 24 hours (usually less), either I can not make a call, can not receive a call, and/or can not use SMS. You say to put this into the ticket system, but it's already there. I added 3 tickets months ago, and ALL are still untouched. I would have entered more, but many would have been duplicates, which I wanted to avoid. There are thousands of tickets in the system, many of them listed as "new" despite being months old. A prime example is the one I sited above, bug #1662, "[GSM] not working properly after x hours of usage". This is a basic thing for a phone to do, but it's been waiting to be seen since 7/23/08. This is not acceptable for any cell phone, but shows no signs of being fixed any time soon. >What if we use montavista/windriver/wince/whatever make a device first then >release(open) crappy/ok linux kernel, it won't be Openmoko. I think that's the issue here... Open source doesn't mean throw the hardware and docs out to the planet and they'll write stuff for you. Open source needs a stable base to work from. OM has provided a stable base for the CPU (via ARM repositories), and arguably the video device. But at least one key device (GSM) has had several stability issues, and ironically that's the one part of OM that is NOT open source. Another part that has issues that are know is wifi (needing reboot to connect to a second AP?), not to mention issues surrounding power save and battery charging. > We are sorry if FR make you think as expensive brick It cost $400 and can't be used as a phone when the page I bought it from said it was a consumer ready phone. If FIC were in the US they'd have a class action suit on their hands by now for false advertising. Instead, they will (maybe) produce GTA03 and be shocked when they get almost no sales because people look it up and see the failure of the past 2 devices. And all the open source nay-sayers will collectively say "told you so" and write glowing articles about the death of open source for phones. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Craig- There are some points I want to explain. > B> My point wasn't to LOSE more money by selling to you for $10. My point in > selling now is to try to not get screwed a second time when OM drops support > for it, like they did for the GTA01 last month. If OM ourselves have un-limited resource, we want push each device using latest kernel with most updated driver patch, and could synchronized all developer effort into 1 distro. But people have their favorite collection, like GTA01 still some people's favorite because it has faster graphics response time. There still people using GTA01, also distro supported (like beartech's SHR). IF you have questions, could still post on kernel/devel list, people might could provide more solutions there. > I didn't buy this phone as a gadget to work on for months that MIGHT > eventually make a nice GPS. For half the price I could have gotten a real > open source kit and the parts to put together something like this, minus GSM. > Something with a REAL SDK, fully open and STABLE source, and support from > the company that sold it to me. Some essential difference Openmoko with other device: A company want to provide a open-sourced device, could have closed development process first, fork linux kernel with their tree, have something tweak/workaround at kernel/device driver. And release their stable build (boot/kernel/rootfs) and SDK. Then stay the fork, mostly, do not need/want/put resource into upstream. Openmoko release the source before product release (no matter GTA01/02 or 03), community people who using similar platform could also benefit from the start. And we keep tracking latest kernel with our device, and toolchain/other needs also evolve with community needs. And try to upstream if possible. And we open hardware schematics for people want to know more about design or potential hardware issue. We hope that our effort that also helps open source community more understanding device development and also knowing/improve issue and fix it. What if we use montavista/windriver/wince/whatever make a device first then release(open) crappy/ok linux kernel, it won't be Openmoko. > I bought this to use as a phone that I could get into, add to, and modify if > I wanted to. That's how FIC marketed it, as a consumer ready device, open > source, with MAYBE a small power issue in that it wasn't supporting stand by > mode. OM wasn't it's own entity, or if it was that wasn't made clear. We are sorry if people not satisfy our products in every standards, our mistake/argument also all public. > I'm just pissed off that I spent $400 on a device that was supposed to be my > next phone, and 8 months later it's still sitting in a box because it's not > usable as a normal daily phone. And it doesn't help that people keep saying > the FreeRunner was marketed as a development platform, when it clearly wasn't. We are sorry if FR make you think as expensive brick, If you have usability issue, could go to support.openmoko.com and open ticket, we could help you there. Regards, Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) Openmoko, Inc. Support -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklliyMACgkQmV6sZhhBn28xQQCgsdjkkl/H3yJEzoWSDIx3GUzi mw4Anj/HEKRHAikPwmeJtysU02Z2Fd0S =Ki+U -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
> I'm just pissed off that I spent $400 on a device that was supposed to be > my next phone, and 8 months later it's still sitting in a box because it's > not usable as a normal daily phone. And it doesn't help that people keep > saying the FreeRunner was marketed as a development platform, when it > clearly wasn't. > > I completely agree with you. I was also under the impression that the FR unit was ready for general use, WHICH IT IS NOT! However, I don't believe this thread belongs on the support forums. Here's a tiny rant anyways, in case someone cares: BEGIN RANT I had been follow the OM initiative since the GTAv1 came out. I had even attempted to get my hands on one, and I'm glad I failed. When the GTAv2 came out, it most certainly was marketed as ready for the masses; translation "The software is usable, but may have bugs (ie. beta quality). However, the hardware is stable." Clearly, the initiative was to sell as many "broken" phones(these ARE phones, remember) as possible to get the income to maybe, if "we" feel like it, make a final product. Although nothing specifically says that the phone works, according to US consumer rights laws, the phone is supposed to be marketed as developmental/beta, which it is not. Please note: NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, on the OpenMoko.com web-site says ANYTHING about the phone not being useable for day to day use. In fact, they suggest Qtopia software for day to day use, which is only slightly more useable, but is still held back by the lack of standby. Here's the product Q&A: http://www.openmoko.com/product-qa.html Here's the technical specs: http://www.openmoko.com/product.html OM was happy enough to offer to help me with my battery issue, but I am still very disappointed in this product. I'm actually thinking of scrapping the idea of using this phone because of it's pure unusability. In the 6 months since I've owned my phone, I have seen no improvement to the "phone" like qualities of the device. I'm sometimes able to use it to make/receive calls, other times I'd be better off with a tin can and string. Sometimes I can send/receive text messages, other times I should invest in a stamp. END RANT I would like to see OM make a strong effort to (not in any order): 1) Fix APM so that the phone can go to standby, but still receive calls and texts (currently, it's very unreliable) 2) Fix the Black/White screen when returning from suspend issue (makes the phone unusable) 3) Patch the PMU so that it can charge from off under most circumstances; I understand that after the backup battery drains, the registers return to their defaults, however, I've also been told that it takes up to 2 days to drain the backup, which should give most everyone a chance to plug in their phone (I still do not understand why plugging in the device causes a power on event...) 4) Make the phone power off when you reach some minimal power level (say <4% of capacity) In the past six months I have seen: boot times decrease (hooray, but I could have lived otherwise) and the White screen issue turn into a Black screen issue (improved?!?). If you're reading this line, thanks for making it through the rant. -Luke ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Craig Woodward wrote: > [a lot of stuff that got cropped] Because I already have one. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
I've found the gps quite nice, it takes some work to get it working. It is doable. I would hold off selling it until Koolu releases their android port. Their beta is already almost on par with 2008.12. I think if they resolved the calypso issue and improved audio quality, the Freerunner would be a viable phone. On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Craig Woodward wrote: > Ian Darwin wrote: > You accuse me of mincing words. Let's see if you'll stand by your words. > If you really feel the device is that worthless, sell it to me for $10.00. > Final offer. > = > > Ok: > A> Learn to crop your replies... > B> My point wasn't to LOSE more money by selling to you for $10. My point in > selling now is to try to not get screwed a second time when OM drops support > for it, like they did for the GTA01 last month. > C> If you think it's such a great "phone", why not buy it from me for full > price? Clearly if it's so great, you'll have no problem re-selling it. > Didn't think so... > > I didn't buy this phone as a gadget to work on for months that MIGHT > eventually make a nice GPS. For half the price I could have gotten a real > open source kit and the parts to put together something like this, minus GSM. > Something with a REAL SDK, fully open and STABLE source, and support from > the company that sold it to me. > > I bought this to use as a phone that I could get into, add to, and modify if > I wanted to. That's how FIC marketed it, as a consumer ready device, open > source, with MAYBE a small power issue in that it wasn't supporting stand by > mode. OM wasn't it's own entity, or if it was that wasn't made clear. > > Now FIC has shifted ALL responsibility off to OM. OM says they're not > focused on the GTA02, but are marketing to "future phones", like the GTA03. > They've also completely dropped support for the GTA01. And core > functionality on ALL Neos, like making and receiving calls and SMS, is still > unreliable. > > The FreeRunner wasn't marketed as a prototype device. It was marketed as > consumer ready, and it's not there, and doesn't appear to be getting there > any time soon, if at all. Saying OM never said the software was ready > doesn't change how it was marketed, or the fact that OM was initially formed > and funded by FIC to develop software for it's phone. > > I'm just pissed off that I spent $400 on a device that was supposed to be my > next phone, and 8 months later it's still sitting in a box because it's not > usable as a normal daily phone. And it doesn't help that people keep saying > the FreeRunner was marketed as a development platform, when it clearly wasn't. > > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Ian Darwin wrote: You accuse me of mincing words. Let's see if you'll stand by your words. If you really feel the device is that worthless, sell it to me for $10.00. Final offer. = Ok: A> Learn to crop your replies... B> My point wasn't to LOSE more money by selling to you for $10. My point in selling now is to try to not get screwed a second time when OM drops support for it, like they did for the GTA01 last month. C> If you think it's such a great "phone", why not buy it from me for full price? Clearly if it's so great, you'll have no problem re-selling it. Didn't think so... I didn't buy this phone as a gadget to work on for months that MIGHT eventually make a nice GPS. For half the price I could have gotten a real open source kit and the parts to put together something like this, minus GSM. Something with a REAL SDK, fully open and STABLE source, and support from the company that sold it to me. I bought this to use as a phone that I could get into, add to, and modify if I wanted to. That's how FIC marketed it, as a consumer ready device, open source, with MAYBE a small power issue in that it wasn't supporting stand by mode. OM wasn't it's own entity, or if it was that wasn't made clear. Now FIC has shifted ALL responsibility off to OM. OM says they're not focused on the GTA02, but are marketing to "future phones", like the GTA03. They've also completely dropped support for the GTA01. And core functionality on ALL Neos, like making and receiving calls and SMS, is still unreliable. The FreeRunner wasn't marketed as a prototype device. It was marketed as consumer ready, and it's not there, and doesn't appear to be getting there any time soon, if at all. Saying OM never said the software was ready doesn't change how it was marketed, or the fact that OM was initially formed and funded by FIC to develop software for it's phone. I'm just pissed off that I spent $400 on a device that was supposed to be my next phone, and 8 months later it's still sitting in a box because it's not usable as a normal daily phone. And it doesn't help that people keep saying the FreeRunner was marketed as a development platform, when it clearly wasn't. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick / pcf50633 defaults
Andy Green wrote: > There's two interesting ideas from Mike though, one is that disable USB > insert as ON will help by giving longer for VB_SYS to charge and the > other is leave charger enabled. For both of these, they are defeated > (USB insert is ON action, charger disabled) by NOPOWER and we have no > control then. I'm not considering the NOPOWER case, because as you point out there is nothing that can be done in software to help with that problem. Another software workaround for this issue is to never let the main battery drain into the cutoff state. The PMU can generate a low-battery interrupt. If the FR gets this interrupt, it can re-program the PMU with safe settings and then immediately power off the main device and the Calypso. The battery will still drain a bit from leakage current and self-discharge, but at a much slower rate. That's the simple version - more work is needed to handle cases like hot-swapping batteries while the device is plugged into external power (which could also generate a low-battery signal). There should also be an opportunity for userspace to do a clean shutdown of the device when the battery gets low, but before it reaches the critically-low level to trigger an immediate shutdown. I have not looked at any recent kernels or u-boots (for several months) to see if this has already been implemented. It's somewhere on my to-do list. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick / pcf50633 defaults
bburdette wrote: > > Andy Green wrote: > >> >> There's two interesting ideas from Mike though, one is that disable USB >> insert as ON will help by giving longer for VB_SYS to charge and the >> other is leave charger enabled. For both of these, they are defeated >> (USB insert is ON action, charger disabled) by NOPOWER and we have no >> control then. If the backup battery had not decayed, it could help, but >> it only has very partial impact and is not magically delivering "the >> behaviour you want", GTA02 with this issue still will not start if left >> long enough for backup battery to fall below the pcf50633 threshold for >> NOPOWER. >> > > So are you saying there's no way to reprogram the freerunner to be able > to charge from a (completely) depleted battery? > > That would seem to be the case. That it can charge when there's enough power to start booting, or it can trickle-charge when off (maybe, with some software modification) but that when it's been off for a couple of days you're out of luck. BIG. DESIGN. FLAW. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2120169.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Why wasn't this discussion held prior to releasing the Freerunner? Is the Freerunner a prototype? -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Then he would be out 390 bucks, right? On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Ian Darwin wrote: > You accuse me of mincing words. Let's see if you'll stand by your words. > If you really feel the device is that worthless, sell it to me for $10.00. > Final offer. -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Craig Woodward wrote: > Ian Darwin wrote: > >> There is no place that OM has said that the current *software* is ready for >> the masses. >> > > That's really mincing words... You're right, OM never said the software was > ready for the masses, but FIC said the FreeRunner was "consumer ready" when > it was selling it 8 months ago. That to me implied the hardware AND software > were ready. But months later we're learning that *neither* is ready, and > that both camps will probably drop support for the device before a stable, > reliable platform develops. (As they've already done for the GTA01.) > > Happily I've never had to deal with this battery mess because my current > phone is a Nokia 6230i, which uses the same battery as the FR. The 6230 can > charge the batteries from dead, and never fully drains them to start with. > Frankly I find it unacceptable that ANY phone would fully discharge it's > battery, doubly so when it's hardware isn't capable of trickle charging it > from a "NOPOWER" state. > > But rather than trying to fix this hardware issue in software, OM chose to > change architectures *twice*, and is now focusing work on changes for as yet > unreleased hardware, including the GTA03. Way to build a customer base > folks... And what happens when this new hardware become vaporware as people > realize the market has dried up? Do you really think during a recession that > people are going to drop big bucks on a GTA03, with no major hardware > changes, after the first two FAILED and have no support now? > > I'm pretty sure I'll have my GTA02 up on ebay within the week. It really > sucks, since I WANT an open source phone with the features the Neo promised. > It also sucks that I dropped a pretty penny on what was claimed to be > consumer ready, and 8 months later am still using my 5 year old phone for > daily use. I will very likely take a hit on reselling my Neo, but what's my > other option? Hold on to it in the hopes that a stable platform emerges > before OM totally stops support? And if it doesn't, how much do you think I > could re-sell a custom "phone" for with that can't be used as a phone, has > half finished unstable "open source" software, and absolutely no support? > > The worst part is that by making promises and not delivering, FIC and OM have > set the open source movement back for phones. They've pretty much killed any > chance of an open source phone being taken seriously any time soon unless > it's backed by a huge company (like Android). Who's going to invest in the > next private open source phone after reading how the GTA failed twice, and > delivered non-functional multi-hundred dollar hockey pucks instead? > > Anyone want a GTA02v5? You get the whole box set, plus I'll throw in a stand > alone battery charger and a 2G uSD card too boot. Make an offer. > You accuse me of mincing words. Let's see if you'll stand by your words. If you really feel the device is that worthless, sell it to me for $10.00. Final offer. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Ian Darwin wrote: > There is no place that OM has said that the current *software* is ready for > the masses. That's really mincing words... You're right, OM never said the software was ready for the masses, but FIC said the FreeRunner was "consumer ready" when it was selling it 8 months ago. That to me implied the hardware AND software were ready. But months later we're learning that *neither* is ready, and that both camps will probably drop support for the device before a stable, reliable platform develops. (As they've already done for the GTA01.) Happily I've never had to deal with this battery mess because my current phone is a Nokia 6230i, which uses the same battery as the FR. The 6230 can charge the batteries from dead, and never fully drains them to start with. Frankly I find it unacceptable that ANY phone would fully discharge it's battery, doubly so when it's hardware isn't capable of trickle charging it from a "NOPOWER" state. But rather than trying to fix this hardware issue in software, OM chose to change architectures *twice*, and is now focusing work on changes for as yet unreleased hardware, including the GTA03. Way to build a customer base folks... And what happens when this new hardware become vaporware as people realize the market has dried up? Do you really think during a recession that people are going to drop big bucks on a GTA03, with no major hardware changes, after the first two FAILED and have no support now? I'm pretty sure I'll have my GTA02 up on ebay within the week. It really sucks, since I WANT an open source phone with the features the Neo promised. It also sucks that I dropped a pretty penny on what was claimed to be consumer ready, and 8 months later am still using my 5 year old phone for daily use. I will very likely take a hit on reselling my Neo, but what's my other option? Hold on to it in the hopes that a stable platform emerges before OM totally stops support? And if it doesn't, how much do you think I could re-sell a custom "phone" for with that can't be used as a phone, has half finished unstable "open source" software, and absolutely no support? The worst part is that by making promises and not delivering, FIC and OM have set the open source movement back for phones. They've pretty much killed any chance of an open source phone being taken seriously any time soon unless it's backed by a huge company (like Android). Who's going to invest in the next private open source phone after reading how the GTA failed twice, and delivered non-functional multi-hundred dollar hockey pucks instead? Anyone want a GTA02v5? You get the whole box set, plus I'll throw in a stand alone battery charger and a 2G uSD card too boot. Make an offer. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick / pcf50633 defaults
Andy Green wrote: > > There's two interesting ideas from Mike though, one is that disable USB > insert as ON will help by giving longer for VB_SYS to charge and the > other is leave charger enabled. For both of these, they are defeated > (USB insert is ON action, charger disabled) by NOPOWER and we have no > control then. If the backup battery had not decayed, it could help, but > it only has very partial impact and is not magically delivering "the > behaviour you want", GTA02 with this issue still will not start if left > long enough for backup battery to fall below the pcf50633 threshold for > NOPOWER. > So are you saying there's no way to reprogram the freerunner to be able to charge from a (completely) depleted battery? ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Hi, On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Gothnet wrote: > > > Mike Montour wrote: >> >> If you program the PCF50633 as: >> - charger enabled >> - 100mA current limit >> - do not wake on USB insertion (avoids the brownout issue) >> >> then it will have the behaviour that you want - even with a >> completely-dead battery, you can plug it in and it will slow-charge the >> battery in hardware. I think it still technically violates one of the >> USB standards by drawing current without talking to the host, but IMHO >> it's unlikely to cause any real-world problems. >> > > 1. This really ought to be default behaviour, the current way is really > *really* bad. > > 2. Why stick to 100mA? I thought the USB standard was for ports to support > 500mA? USB always allows for 100mA. This is how devices you plug into USB work in the first place (after all, they need to draw power to even be able to negotiate, right ?). However, anything _beyond_ 100mA needs to be negotiated with the host, _up to_ 500mA - but it is not guranteed that you get it; 100mA is guarenteed. So I agree: the default should be 100mA initially. > > 3. I'm sure the FR doesn't need to negotiate with its charger. > > 4. How easy is it to make this change? > > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2117523.html > Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick / pcf50633 defaults
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | | Mike Montour wrote: |> If you program the PCF50633 as: |> - charger enabled |> - 100mA current limit |> - do not wake on USB insertion (avoids the brownout issue) |> |> then it will have the behaviour that you want - even with a |> completely-dead battery, you can plug it in and it will slow-charge the |> battery in hardware. I think it still technically violates one of the |> USB standards by drawing current without talking to the host, but IMHO |> it's unlikely to cause any real-world problems. |> | | 1. This really ought to be default behaviour, the current way is really | *really* bad. | | 2. Why stick to 100mA? I thought the USB standard was for ports to support | 500mA? | | 3. I'm sure the FR doesn't need to negotiate with its charger. | | 4. How easy is it to make this change? The issue is more complicated than this. pcf50633 has more than one level of hardcoded default actions, some registers get reset when you tell it to enter what it calls "standby" but we would more naturally call "off", and more get reset again when the small backup battery that is also present on GTA02 becomes exhausted, called NOPOWER state. The "real default" settings for our variant that occur with NOPOWER forces the charger disabled. So if you stick your FR in a drawer, the main battery is exhausted, the backup battery goes down a day or whatever later, nothing that we did in previous session about charger status sticks, the charger is off. In addition, due to VB_SYS issue, we can't get easily get to the point of running any code on A5 to enable it without a loan from the battery to get us started. Sometimes the battery is in cutoff and does have some power in the cell, it's just disconnected from the terminals. That's when any kind of external kick will get us out of the hole. There is no violation of USB standards if you only pull 100mA, but another default set by going "off" even is that we pull 500mA from the USB host until the CPU can get started, and that is in violation. But since we can do nothing about it, and we didn't find a host that cares yet, it's OK. There's two interesting ideas from Mike though, one is that disable USB insert as ON will help by giving longer for VB_SYS to charge and the other is leave charger enabled. For both of these, they are defeated (USB insert is ON action, charger disabled) by NOPOWER and we have no control then. If the backup battery had not decayed, it could help, but it only has very partial impact and is not magically delivering "the behaviour you want", GTA02 with this issue still will not start if left long enough for backup battery to fall below the pcf50633 threshold for NOPOWER. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkljdhIACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpvDgCfSK+d1rosyd0cJIrP2dcIvkgz yD0An1KMoTi57Z2oxRp0/8RrITsoPSF0 =LB9S -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Mike Montour wrote: > > If you program the PCF50633 as: > - charger enabled > - 100mA current limit > - do not wake on USB insertion (avoids the brownout issue) > > then it will have the behaviour that you want - even with a > completely-dead battery, you can plug it in and it will slow-charge the > battery in hardware. I think it still technically violates one of the > USB standards by drawing current without talking to the host, but IMHO > it's unlikely to cause any real-world problems. > 1. This really ought to be default behaviour, the current way is really *really* bad. 2. Why stick to 100mA? I thought the USB standard was for ports to support 500mA? 3. I'm sure the FR doesn't need to negotiate with its charger. 4. How easy is it to make this change? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2117523.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
From: Mike Montour Gothnet wrote: > I still find it amazing that the FR doesn't charge when off and empty. Every > phone (and every other portable device) I've ever owned does this. It's not > even a software thing - there ought to be some direct hardware way to charge > the battery from totally dead without the need to even start booting. The FR's power-management chip (PCF50633) can be configured to do this, but it's not as simple as you might think. One source of complexity is the USB standard, which requires devices to negotiate their power consumption with the host computer. Another complication is a brownout problem on some phones which prevents them from booting the CPU unless a battery is present. If you program the PCF50633 as: - charger enabled - 100mA current limit - do not wake on USB insertion (avoids the brownout issue) then it will have the behaviour that you want - even with a completely-dead battery, you can plug it in and it will slow-charge the battery in hardware. I think it still technically violates one of the USB standards by drawing current without talking to the host, but IMHO it's unlikely to cause any real-world problems. This, to me, would seem like the best solution to this issue. In fact, I'm suprised this isn't the default behavior of the power management chip. Is this something we can do? -Luke PS - Someone from OpenMoko was kind enough to work with me on the battery issue, but I'd like to prevent it in the future. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Gothnet wrote: > I still find it amazing that the FR doesn't charge when off and empty. Every > phone (and every other portable device) I've ever owned does this. It's not > even a software thing - there ought to be some direct hardware way to charge > the battery from totally dead without the need to even start booting. The FR's power-management chip (PCF50633) can be configured to do this, but it's not as simple as you might think. One source of complexity is the USB standard, which requires devices to negotiate their power consumption with the host computer. Another complication is a brownout problem on some phones which prevents them from booting the CPU unless a battery is present. If you program the PCF50633 as: - charger enabled - 100mA current limit - do not wake on USB insertion (avoids the brownout issue) then it will have the behaviour that you want - even with a completely-dead battery, you can plug it in and it will slow-charge the battery in hardware. I think it still technically violates one of the USB standards by drawing current without talking to the host, but IMHO it's unlikely to cause any real-world problems. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Alex (Maxious) Sadleir wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:38 AM, Lucas Lacroix > wrote: > Feel proud that an Open phone can be powered by it's own brand, a > competing brand (Nokia) or just some wires and common batteries ;-) > Really? I still find it amazing that the FR doesn't charge when off and empty. Every phone (and every other portable device) I've ever owned does this. It's not even a software thing - there ought to be some direct hardware way to charge the battery from totally dead without the need to even start booting. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2112961.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:38 AM, Lucas Lacroix wrote: > > I'm saddened by the fact that a phone that was supposed to be released to > the masses can have such a blatant failing. Not only can it NOT turn on when > the battery has little or no charge, the APM service does not turn the phone > off to prevent this (note: all OTHER phones I have ever used WILL turn off > when the battery gets below some critical level). > > > I'd like to add here that the OTHER phones generalisation probably isn't correct. My previous handheld device was a Zire 72 Palm Pilot and it does exactly the same as the Freerunner (allows itself to die only to be saved by a 16+ hour USB trickle charge) with the notable exception that you can't access the battery without opening the case. And my current 3G/UMTS phone has DRM on the powercharger. You can only use an "authorised" charger else it shuts down after a minute of charging when the authentication fails. Feel proud that an Open phone can be powered by it's own brand, a competing brand (Nokia) or just some wires and common batteries ;-) ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Briefly remove/replace the battery and then plug in the usb cable from a computer - not the wall plug. Removing the battery allows the safety circuit to reset itself. Wait at least 10-15 minutes to tricklecharge, then try booting again. You may have to remove/replace the battery again. Boot with the usb cable plugged in. The lable saying what version you have is under the battery. BillK On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 18:54 -0500, Lucas Lacroix wrote: > Thanks for all the responses. > > I believe have a GTA02v5, but there's no identifying mark to say which > version. > > As for purchasing an additional battery or a battery charger, that is > NOT a solution. That's a stop-gap. It's the same as purchasing a new > car, finding the axle broke in your driveway overnight, and then the > car salesmen telling you "all you need to fix it is buy a new axle". > > I have tried every combination of with/without battery, holding aux, > USB or Wall charger, and holding aux+power. None of these combinations > have yielded any results. > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support -- William Kenworthy Home in Perth! ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Hello Jon, Jon 'maddog' Hall wrote: >> I believe have a GTA02v5, but there's no identifying mark to say which >> version. >> > > I had the same issue, but Steve Mosher told me: > >Visual inspection: > >A7 can be determined by visual inspection by removing back >cover. There are a row of double pins near the SDcard slot. A7 >will go into production shortly. > Wonderful, thanks for this! -- Regards, Jan Henkins ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Hello Lucas, Lucas Lacroix wrote: > Thanks for all the responses. > > I believe have a GTA02v5, but there's no identifying mark to say which > version. It's also a mystery to me in how to detect which version I have. Could somebody please enlighten us on how to do this? > As for purchasing an additional battery or a battery charger, that is > NOT a solution. That's a stop-gap. It's the same as purchasing a new > car, finding the axle broke in your driveway overnight, and then the > car salesmen telling you "all you need to fix it is buy a new axle". While I can fully understand your dissappoinment (last week I was in exactly the same situation), I do not fully agree with your assesment. Read on... > > I have tried every combination of with/without battery, holding aux, > USB or Wall charger, and holding aux+power. None of these combinations > have yielded any results. I'm sorry that the AUX trick did not work for you. So much the better that you get an external battery charger with an extra battery. Here is what I would say to be valid justification: (1) The current GTA02 does not have great battery life, even though it is improving greatl. In order to extend the time that the device could be used effectively, it makes sense to me to have at least one fully charged battery. I use my phone to record GPS tracks in order to help mapping my town for Openstreetmap, so the longer I have to track, the better. Also, having two or more charged batteries lets me walk instead of drive, which is healthier, yadda yadda (new year's resolutions etc etc). I also use these track logs to geotag my photos. (2) In your case, you cannot boot up the FR without some charge in the battery. So you have possibly two points to justify purchasing an external charger (with or without an extra battery). Also, please remember that the GTA02 is still really experimental hardware, even though it is a lot more consumer-grade than GTA01, so it is to be expected that there will be some hiccups (this specific point scared the hell out of me at first, but in the end I decided to bite the bullet and buy anyway). In view of this, it wouldn't be quite right to use the car analogy with the GTA02, since a car is a "fully developed product", while the GTA02 is still being developed (with interaction from you and me). The trick would be to find out if there is actually something physically wrong with your GTA02, like a broken AUX button etc, and I really hope that somebody from Openmoko could chip in here with some useful comments. -- Regards, Jan Henkins ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
>I believe have a GTA02v5, but there's no identifying mark to say which >version. I had the same issue, but Steve Mosher told me: Visual inspection: A7 can be determined by visual inspection by removing back cover. There are a row of double pins near the SDcard slot. A7 will go into production shortly. A5 was built prior to July. there were only 3K so the datecode should give you that. A6 is visually different from A7 ( no double row of pins) and probably has a date code after July. If you open the front cover you can see the PCB ID printed above the LCM: GTA02_MB_A5 md ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
For me it usually works to leave it in the wall charge for several hours(say overnight) and then connect it to a (already turned on) computer. It than powers up without pressing any buttons here. Just try again and don't give up on it :-) ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Thanks for all the responses. I believe have a GTA02v5, but there's no identifying mark to say which version. As for purchasing an additional battery or a battery charger, that is NOT a solution. That's a stop-gap. It's the same as purchasing a new car, finding the axle broke in your driveway overnight, and then the car salesmen telling you "all you need to fix it is buy a new axle". I have tried every combination of with/without battery, holding aux, USB or Wall charger, and holding aux+power. None of these combinations have yielded any results. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Hello Lucas, Lucas Lacroix wrote: > I forgot to plug the Neo in last night, and now the battery is > completely dead. I cannot even get to the NOR boot. I've tried both > USB and the charger. I have tried with and without the battery. No > combination of these will get the phone to turn on so it can charge > the battery. The following works for me on my Freerunner (bought December 2008), which I have ran completely dry on a number of occasions: * Unplug FR from wall charger or cable from computer USB port * If the red AUX light is flashing, take out the battery and put it back in after about 10 seconds (amount of seconds is arbitrary). * Press and HOLD IN AUX while you plug in wall carger (not USB cable to a computer). * FR should now boot to u-boot menu, where you can then select which way to boot. -- Regards, Jan Henkins ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Lucas Lacroix wrote: > > I forgot to plug the Neo in last night, and now the battery is completely > dead. I got an external charger at ebay, Nokia BL-5C compatible (around 6 euros, shipping included). More on the wiki: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Hardware_Issues#Can.27t_boot_with_discharged_or_missing_battery Best regards, Gilles ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
If you're using GTA02v6 it should start, when it is connected to computer (not wall charger!) and with pressed AUX button. When you are using GTA02v5, simply insert Nokia BL-5C compatible battery. My GTA02v5 had totally discharged many times, but it's still working :P dos ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Hi, Connecting to the PC's USB port always works for me too. But it isn't a valid solution because if you're travelling, you'll be compelled to take your PC/Laptop with you. :-) -Karthik On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Paul wrote: > Here's an unorthodox approach. > > Have you tried removing the battery and plugging in the USB into a > computer and the OM? > > This brings up the Boot for me. Once the boot menu is showing, put > the battery in, and then cycle through the menu for two to three mins > before attempting to boot (choose the boot option from menu). > > I think this gives the battery time to charge up a bit before trying > to boot. If it fails, just cycle it through the boot menu a bit > longer. > > -- > Paul > Email - pault...@gmail.com > > There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through > which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. > Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > -- Karthik http://guilt.bafsoft.net ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Here's an unorthodox approach. Have you tried removing the battery and plugging in the USB into a computer and the OM? This brings up the Boot for me. Once the boot menu is showing, put the battery in, and then cycle through the menu for two to three mins before attempting to boot (choose the boot option from menu). I think this gives the battery time to charge up a bit before trying to boot. If it fails, just cycle it through the boot menu a bit longer. -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Hi, I wouldn't recommend this that you'd go and buy a Nokia battery to boot up your phone. IMHO the first thing that needs to be fixed is a wall charging thing, with Qi/u-boot. You do get Taiwan made fake batteries for 30 INR (0.6 $) but they may explode, and I wouldn't recommend it. -Karthik Ian Darwin wrote: > Lucas Lacroix wrote: > >> I forgot to plug the Neo in last night, and now the battery is >> completely dead. I cannot even get to the NOR boot. I've tried both >> USB and the charger. I have tried with and without the battery. No >> combination of these will get the phone to turn on so it can charge >> the battery. >> > This is one of the most annoying misfeatures of the phone, I think > everybody agrees. > >> I'm saddened by the fact that a phone that was supposed to be released >> to the masses can have such a blatant failing. Not only can it NOT >> turn on when the battery has little or no charge, the APM service does >> not turn the phone off to prevent this (note: all OTHER phones I have >> ever used WILL turn off when the battery gets below some critical level). >> On top of this, if I ever expect to have a working phone, I have to >> disable the only feature which should extend the battery life (read >> that as: OpenMoko has fixed the WSoD problem by replacing it with the >> BSoD - Black Screen of Death). >> > You've answered your own question in a roundabout way. There is no place > that OM has said that the current *software* is ready for the masses. > The fact that the software doesn't halt or suspend or shut down on low > power is proof of this. The fact that it's software means it will > eventually get remediated. > >> I have looked at the work-arounds, and none of them have worked or are >> doable. I refuse to "hardware hack" my phone with an external 4.5V >> line to give it the initial charge. I also do not have access to a >> charger that will work with this battery. Lastly, I do not have a >> second battery. >> >> > Do you live in a part of the world where anybody uses Nokia phones? Do > you have a friend or co-worker who knows you well enough to lend you > their battery for 5 mins to jump-start your phone? If not, maybe you > need to get out more :-) Borrow their battery, insert it, boot up, plug > in the charger, swap batteries, return the battery leaving your phone > charging. On some cheaper Nokias you have to re-set the Nokia phone's > date & time after this operation; I've not seen it lose any other > information from the Nokia and I've done this 3 or 4 times (the rest of > my family has mostly Nokias at present, and they're not switching until > the OM is more consumer ready). > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
"Marc Rios" writes: > Can you tell me how you make this script to load on start-up. I think its a > good choice to make. I'm with qtopia distro. I use su - lindi -c "/home/lindi/.bootuprc" & in /etc/rc.local to start things as normal user on bootup. Any more elegant solutions are welcome. (I know @reboot with cron can do this but I try to avoid all extra processes so I do not run cron at the moment). ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Hi, Can you tell me how you make this script to load on start-up. I think its a good choice to make. I'm with qtopia distro. Thanks -- Marc Rios Nota: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.es.html On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote: > "Lucas Lacroix" writes: > > I'm saddened by the fact that a phone that was supposed to be released to > > the masses can have such a blatant failing. Not only can it NOT turn on > when > > the battery has little or no charge, the APM service does not turn the > phone > > off to prevent this (note: all OTHER phones I have ever used WILL turn > off > > when the battery gets below some critical level). > > I use a simple shell script to shutdown the phone in one minute if it > is not charging and the capacity is less than 4%. > > > #!/bin/sh > set -e > . $HOME/.sysfsrc > > while true; do ># log battery info to stdout >echo -n "`date -Iseconds` `date +%s`" >for i in type status voltage_now current_now charge_full temp technology > present time_to_empty_now time_to_full_now capacity online; do >val="`cat $sys_battery/$i | sed 's/ /_/'`" >echo -n " $val" >done >val="`cut -d' ' -f2 /proc/loadavg`" >echo -n " $val" >echo "" > ># workaround #1158 >if [ "`cat $sys_battery/capacity`" -lt 95 ]; then >if [ "`cat $sys_battery/status`" = "Not charging" ]; then >usbhost-start >usbhost-stop >fi >fi > ># workaround #1712 >if [ "`cat $sys_battery/capacity`" -lt 4 ]; then >if [ "`cat $sys_battery/status`" = "Not charging" ]; then >sudo shutdown -h 1 >exit >fi >fi >sleep 120 > done > > > On top of this, if I ever expect to have a working phone, I have to > disable > > the only feature which should extend the battery life (read that as: > > OpenMoko has fixed the WSoD problem by replacing it with the BSoD - Black > > Screen of Death). > > Can't say much here. I have not seen either problem very often. > > > work with this battery. Lastly, I do not have a second battery. > > Try to find somebody else who has a freerunner and borrow a battery > for a while? > > > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
"Lucas Lacroix" writes: > I'm saddened by the fact that a phone that was supposed to be released to > the masses can have such a blatant failing. Not only can it NOT turn on when > the battery has little or no charge, the APM service does not turn the phone > off to prevent this (note: all OTHER phones I have ever used WILL turn off > when the battery gets below some critical level). I use a simple shell script to shutdown the phone in one minute if it is not charging and the capacity is less than 4%. #!/bin/sh set -e . $HOME/.sysfsrc while true; do # log battery info to stdout echo -n "`date -Iseconds` `date +%s`" for i in type status voltage_now current_now charge_full temp technology present time_to_empty_now time_to_full_now capacity online; do val="`cat $sys_battery/$i | sed 's/ /_/'`" echo -n " $val" done val="`cut -d' ' -f2 /proc/loadavg`" echo -n " $val" echo "" # workaround #1158 if [ "`cat $sys_battery/capacity`" -lt 95 ]; then if [ "`cat $sys_battery/status`" = "Not charging" ]; then usbhost-start usbhost-stop fi fi # workaround #1712 if [ "`cat $sys_battery/capacity`" -lt 4 ]; then if [ "`cat $sys_battery/status`" = "Not charging" ]; then sudo shutdown -h 1 exit fi fi sleep 120 done > On top of this, if I ever expect to have a working phone, I have to disable > the only feature which should extend the battery life (read that as: > OpenMoko has fixed the WSoD problem by replacing it with the BSoD - Black > Screen of Death). Can't say much here. I have not seen either problem very often. > work with this battery. Lastly, I do not have a second battery. Try to find somebody else who has a freerunner and borrow a battery for a while? ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Lucas Lacroix wrote: > I forgot to plug the Neo in last night, and now the battery is > completely dead. I cannot even get to the NOR boot. I've tried both > USB and the charger. I have tried with and without the battery. No > combination of these will get the phone to turn on so it can charge > the battery. This is one of the most annoying misfeatures of the phone, I think everybody agrees. > > I'm saddened by the fact that a phone that was supposed to be released > to the masses can have such a blatant failing. Not only can it NOT > turn on when the battery has little or no charge, the APM service does > not turn the phone off to prevent this (note: all OTHER phones I have > ever used WILL turn off when the battery gets below some critical level). > On top of this, if I ever expect to have a working phone, I have to > disable the only feature which should extend the battery life (read > that as: OpenMoko has fixed the WSoD problem by replacing it with the > BSoD - Black Screen of Death). You've answered your own question in a roundabout way. There is no place that OM has said that the current *software* is ready for the masses. The fact that the software doesn't halt or suspend or shut down on low power is proof of this. The fact that it's software means it will eventually get remediated. > > I have looked at the work-arounds, and none of them have worked or are > doable. I refuse to "hardware hack" my phone with an external 4.5V > line to give it the initial charge. I also do not have access to a > charger that will work with this battery. Lastly, I do not have a > second battery. > Do you live in a part of the world where anybody uses Nokia phones? Do you have a friend or co-worker who knows you well enough to lend you their battery for 5 mins to jump-start your phone? If not, maybe you need to get out more :-) Borrow their battery, insert it, boot up, plug in the charger, swap batteries, return the battery leaving your phone charging. On some cheaper Nokias you have to re-set the Nokia phone's date & time after this operation; I've not seen it lose any other information from the Nokia and I've done this 3 or 4 times (the rest of my family has mostly Nokias at present, and they're not switching until the OM is more consumer ready). ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
