[pfSense Support] Allow exe form a site only

2011-02-01 Thread Shali K.R.
Dear all,

I have blocked exe  using squidguard.Is it possible to allow exes only from
microsoft.com???

-- 
Thanks  Regards

Shali K R
Server Administrator
Vidya Academy of Science  Technology
Thrissur,Kerala.
Mob:9846303531


[pfSense Support] Can't build Regular ISO either

2011-02-01 Thread Mark Jones
Since I learned yesterday that the dev ISO is no longer used, I tried to build 
a regular ISO and the output of doing that is below.  I'm trying to build 1.2.3 
on 7.2 because this is going into a production environment and based on what I 
see 2.0 is still beta.

I see on the forums 
http://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?action=post;topic=32678.0;num_replies=5 
someone else is having the same problem and hasn't figured it out yet either.  
I'm guessing part of the problem is that there is a desire for pecl-APC which 
won't be built with PHP4.  When I try to replace PHP4 with PHP5, it fails for 
other reasons.  Looking at the other errors, it's almost like the entire PHP 
setup is messed up in the source, but since 1.2.3 is supposed to be stable and 
released, this doesn't make sense.



 Fetching BSDInstaller using CVSUP...
 Updating BSDInstaller collection...Done!
cp: directory 
/usr/home/pfsense/tools/builder_scripts/../../installer/installer/
scripts/build does not exist
.: Can't open ./pfsense_local.sh: No such file or directory
 Setting CVSUp host to cvsup17.freebsd.org
 Removing needed files listed in patches.RELENG_7_2 RELENG_1_2
 Obtaining FreeBSD sources RELENG_7_2-supfile...Done!
 Removing old patch rejects...
 Applying patches from 
 /usr/home/pfsense/tools/builder_scripts/../builder_scr
 ipts/patches.RELENG_7_2 please wait...Done!
 Finding patch rejects...
 Updating pfSense GIT repo...
 Cloning http://gitweb.pfsense.org/pfsense/mainline.git / RELENG_1_2...Done!
 Using GIT to checkout RELENG_1_2
 Checking out tag RELENG_1_2...Done!
 Making sure we are in the right branch... [OK] (RELENG_1_2)
 Creating tarball of checked out contents...Done!
 Preparing object directory...
 Building world and kernels for ISO... 7  RELENG_7_2 ...
 Building world for i386 architecture...
 World build started on Tue Feb  1 00:40:16 CST 2011
 Rebuilding the temporary build tree
 stage 1.1: legacy release compatibility shims
 stage 1.2: bootstrap tools
 stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree
 stage 2.3: build tools
 stage 3: cross tools
 stage 4.1: building includes
 stage 4.2: building libraries
 stage 4.3: make dependencies
 stage 4.4: building everything
 World build completed on Tue Feb  1 01:25:37 CST 2011
 Ensuring that the btxld problem does not happen on subsequent runs...
 Installing world for i386 architecture...
 Making hierarchy
 Installing everything
 Building all extra kernels... 7  RELENG_7_2 ...
 Building uniprocessor kernel...
 Not adding D-Trace to Kernel...
 KERNCONFDIR: /usr/pfSensesrc/src/sys/i386/conf
 ARCH:i386
 SRC_CONF:src.conf.7
 Kernel build for pfSense.7 started on Tue Feb  1 01:27:11 CST 2011
 stage 1: configuring the kernel
 stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree
 stage 2.3: build tools
 stage 3.1: making dependencies
 stage 3.2: building everything
 Kernel build for pfSense.7 completed on Tue Feb  1 01:36:55 CST 2011
 Installing uniprocessor kernel...
 Installing kernel
 Executing cd /tmp/kernels/uniprocessor/boot/kernel
 Building embedded kernel...
 Not adding D-Trace to Kernel...
 KERNCONFDIR: /usr/pfSensesrc/src/sys/i386/conf
 ARCH:i386
 SRC_CONF:src.conf.7
 Kernel build for pfSense_wrap.7.i386 started on Tue Feb  1 01:37:12 CST 2011
 stage 1: configuring the kernel
 stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree
 stage 2.3: build tools
 stage 3.1: making dependencies
 stage 3.2: building everything
 Kernel build for pfSense_wrap.7.i386 completed on Tue Feb  1 01:45:41 CST 
 2011
 Installing wrap kernel...
 Installing kernel
 Executing cd /tmp/kernels/wrap/boot/kernel
 Building embedded dev kernel...
 Not adding D-Trace to Kernel...
 KERNCONFDIR: /usr/pfSensesrc/src/sys/i386/conf
 ARCH:i386
 SRC_CONF:src.conf.7
 Kernel build for pfSense_wrap_Dev.7.i386 started on Tue Feb  1 01:45:51 CST 
 2011
 stage 1: configuring the kernel
 stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree
 stage 2.3: build tools
 stage 3.1: making dependencies
 stage 3.2: building everything
 Kernel build for pfSense_wrap_Dev.7.i386 completed on Tue Feb  1 01:54:10 
 CST 2011
 Installing wrap Dev kernel...
 Installing kernel
 Executing cd /tmp/kernels/wrap_Dev/boot/kernel
 Building Developers kernel...
 Not adding D-Trace to Kernel...
 KERNCONFDIR: /usr/pfSensesrc/src/sys/i386/conf
 ARCH:i386
 SRC_CONF:src.conf.7
 Kernel build for pfSense_Dev.7 started on Tue Feb  1 01:54:20 CST 2011
 stage 1: configuring the kernel
 stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree
 stage 2.3: build tools
 stage 3.1: making dependencies
 stage 3.2: building everything
 Kernel build for pfSense_Dev.7 completed on Tue Feb  1 02:03:49 CST 2011
 Installing Developers kernel...
 Installing kernel
 Executing cd /tmp/kernels/developers/boot/kernel
 Building SMP kernel...
 Not adding D-Trace to Kernel...
 KERNCONFDIR: /usr/pfSensesrc/src/sys/i386/conf
 ARCH:i386
 SRC_CONF:src.conf.7
 Kernel build for pfSense_SMP.7 started on Tue Feb  1 02:04:07 CST 2011
 stage 1: configuring 

Re: [pfSense Support] Can't build Regular ISO either

2011-02-01 Thread Jim Pingle
On 2/1/2011 7:48 AM, Mark Jones wrote:
 Since I learned yesterday that the dev ISO is no longer used, I tried to
 build a regular ISO and the output of doing that is below.  I’m trying
 to build 1.2.3 on 7.2 because this is going into a production
 environment and based on what I see 2.0 is still beta.
 
  
 
 I see on the forums
 http://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?action=post;topic=32678.0;num_replies=5
 someone else is having the same problem and hasn’t figured it out yet
 either.  I’m guessing part of the problem is that there is a desire for
 pecl-APC which won’t be built with PHP4.  When I try to replace PHP4
 with PHP5, it fails for other reasons.  Looking at the other errors,
 it’s almost like the entire PHP setup is messed up in the source, but
 since 1.2.3 is supposed to be stable and released, this doesn’t make sense.

Did you notice if there were errors during the port build process?
(build_pfPorts.sh)

Last time I tried a fresh 7.2 build, PHP4 wasn't building properly,
which could lead to the errors you are seeing.

Jim

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RE: [pfSense Support] Can't build Regular ISO either

2011-02-01 Thread Mark Jones
They were blocked by the do_not_build_pfPorts, but I removed that file and 
started the build.  I'm seeing things like

 Building choparp...
*** Error code 1
*** Error code 1

Is there some easy way to turn on verbose logging so I get more than just Error 
code 1?

I come from a linux background moreso that FreeBSD


-Original Message-
From: Jim Pingle [mailto:li...@pingle.org]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 7:42 AM
To: support@pfsense.com
Subject: Re: [pfSense Support] Can't build Regular ISO either

On 2/1/2011 7:48 AM, Mark Jones wrote:
 Since I learned yesterday that the dev ISO is no longer used, I tried
 to build a regular ISO and the output of doing that is below.  I'm
 trying to build 1.2.3 on 7.2 because this is going into a production
 environment and based on what I see 2.0 is still beta.



 I see on the forums
 http://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?action=post;topic=32678.0;num_repli
 es=5 someone else is having the same problem and hasn't figured it out
 yet either.  I'm guessing part of the problem is that there is a
 desire for pecl-APC which won't be built with PHP4.  When I try to
 replace PHP4 with PHP5, it fails for other reasons.  Looking at the
 other errors, it's almost like the entire PHP setup is messed up in
 the source, but since 1.2.3 is supposed to be stable and released,
 this doesn't make sense.

Did you notice if there were errors during the port build process?
(build_pfPorts.sh)

Last time I tried a fresh 7.2 build, PHP4 wasn't building properly, which could 
lead to the errors you are seeing.

Jim

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RE: RE: [pfSense Support] Can't build Regular ISO either

2011-02-01 Thread Mark Jones
Another error is a missing dprintf which appears to come from glibc and is 
found on linux.  I did have the installer load the linux binary compatibility, 
but is there some other port I need to load to make dprintf be present?

-Original Message-
From: Mark Jones [mailto:mjo...@imagehawk.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 10:31 AM
To: support@pfsense.com
Subject: RE: [pfSense Support] Can't build Regular ISO either

They were blocked by the do_not_build_pfPorts, but I removed that file and 
started the build.  I'm seeing things like

 Building choparp...
*** Error code 1
*** Error code 1

Is there some easy way to turn on verbose logging so I get more than just Error 
code 1?

I come from a linux background moreso that FreeBSD


-Original Message-
From: Jim Pingle [mailto:li...@pingle.org]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 7:42 AM
To: support@pfsense.com
Subject: Re: [pfSense Support] Can't build Regular ISO either

On 2/1/2011 7:48 AM, Mark Jones wrote:
 Since I learned yesterday that the dev ISO is no longer used, I tried
 to build a regular ISO and the output of doing that is below.  I'm
 trying to build 1.2.3 on 7.2 because this is going into a production
 environment and based on what I see 2.0 is still beta.



 I see on the forums
 http://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?action=post;topic=32678.0;num_repli
 es=5 someone else is having the same problem and hasn't figured it out
 yet either.  I'm guessing part of the problem is that there is a
 desire for pecl-APC which won't be built with PHP4.  When I try to
 replace PHP4 with PHP5, it fails for other reasons.  Looking at the
 other errors, it's almost like the entire PHP setup is messed up in
 the source, but since 1.2.3 is supposed to be stable and released,
 this doesn't make sense.

Did you notice if there were errors during the port build process?
(build_pfPorts.sh)

Last time I tried a fresh 7.2 build, PHP4 wasn't building properly, which could 
lead to the errors you are seeing.

Jim

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[pfSense Support] dPrintf, the real story

2011-02-01 Thread Mark Jones

HISTORY
  The dprintf() and vdprintf() functions were added in FreeBSD 8.0.

So, this means I can't build 1.2.3 on 7.2 any longer!  I would assume that 
setting the version # to 1.2.3 would pull the right branch of the source, but I 
guess using the menu, I actually just picked RELENG_1_2 or RELENG_7_2 which 
appears to set:

RELENG_7_2)
echo  Setting builder environment to use RELENG_1.2.3-REL w/ 
FreeBSD 7.2 ...
export FREEBSD_VERSION=7
export FREEBSD_BRANCH=RELENG_7_2
export 
SUPFILE=${BUILDER_TOOLS}/builder_scripts/${FREEBSD_BRANCH}-supfile
export PFSENSE_VERSION=1.2.3
export PFSENSETAG=RELENG_1_2
export PFSPATCHFILE=${BUILDER_TOOLS}/builder_scripts/patches.RELENG_7_2
export 
CUSTOM_COPY_LIST=${BUILDER_TOOLS}/builder_scripts/copy.list.RELENG_1_2
export PFSPATCHDIR=${BUILDER_TOOLS}/patches/RELENG_7_2
export PFSPORTSFILE=buildports.RELENG_1_2
export EXTRA_DEVICES=${EXTRA_DEVICES:-}
set_items
;;

What gives here?  Is 1.2.3 really broken now under 7.2 or should I have some 
other branch I should be pulling code from?

-Original Message-
From: Mark Jones [mailto:mjo...@imagehawk.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 10:36 AM
To: support@pfsense.com
Subject: RE: RE: [pfSense Support] Can't build Regular ISO either

Another error is a missing dprintf which appears to come from glibc and is 
found on linux.  I did have the installer load the linux binary compatibility, 
but is there some other port I need to load to make dprintf be present?

-Original Message-
From: Mark Jones [mailto:mjo...@imagehawk.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 10:31 AM
To: support@pfsense.com
Subject: RE: [pfSense Support] Can't build Regular ISO either

They were blocked by the do_not_build_pfPorts, but I removed that file and 
started the build.  I'm seeing things like

 Building choparp...
*** Error code 1
*** Error code 1

Is there some easy way to turn on verbose logging so I get more than just Error 
code 1?

I come from a linux background moreso that FreeBSD


-Original Message-
From: Jim Pingle [mailto:li...@pingle.org]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 7:42 AM
To: support@pfsense.com
Subject: Re: [pfSense Support] Can't build Regular ISO either

On 2/1/2011 7:48 AM, Mark Jones wrote:
 Since I learned yesterday that the dev ISO is no longer used, I tried
 to build a regular ISO and the output of doing that is below.  I'm
 trying to build 1.2.3 on 7.2 because this is going into a production
 environment and based on what I see 2.0 is still beta.



 I see on the forums
 http://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?action=post;topic=32678.0;num_repli
 es=5 someone else is having the same problem and hasn't figured it out
 yet either.  I'm guessing part of the problem is that there is a
 desire for pecl-APC which won't be built with PHP4.  When I try to
 replace PHP4 with PHP5, it fails for other reasons.  Looking at the
 other errors, it's almost like the entire PHP setup is messed up in
 the source, but since 1.2.3 is supposed to be stable and released,
 this doesn't make sense.

Did you notice if there were errors during the port build process?
(build_pfPorts.sh)

Last time I tried a fresh 7.2 build, PHP4 wasn't building properly, which could 
lead to the errors you are seeing.

Jim

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Re: RE: [pfSense Support] Can't build Regular ISO either

2011-02-01 Thread Vick Khera
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Mark Jones mjo...@imagehawk.com wrote:
 Another error is a missing dprintf which appears to come from glibc and is 
 found on linux.  I did have the installer load the linux binary 
 compatibility, but is there some other port I need to load to make dprintf be 
 present?

What specific software are you trying to compile that requires linux
compatibility libraries?  The only modern software that I can think of
to want to run that doesn't build natively on freebsd is apache qpid.

In any case, to build linux binaries, you need to install the full
linux build tool set, usually red hat RPMs of those will suffice. You
can't use the freebsd build tools to build linux binaries.

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Re: [pfSense Support] Allow exe form a site only

2011-02-01 Thread Serg

  - Original Message - 
  From: Shali K.R. 
  To: support@pfsense.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 2:16 PM
  Subject: [pfSense Support] Allow exe form a site only


Dear all,

I have blocked exe  using squidguard.Is it possible to allow exes only from 
microsoft.com???

-- 
Thanks  Regards

Shali K R
Server Administrator 
Vidya Academy of Science  Technology
Thrissur,Kerala.
Mob:9846303531

Hello.
Yes, it's possible.
You must create the first Destination category, what allow EXE from M$ and 
allow it as whitelist in the ACL.
Also need create the second Destination category for block EXE from any site.

Regards
Sergey

[pfSense Support] pfsense and DDOS

2011-02-01 Thread David Burgess
An article popped up on /. today, and although it's a poorly written
article, some of the ensuing discussion did provoke some thought.

http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/02/01/181200/Firewalls-Make-DDoS-Attacks-Worse

I think the article is mostly just scare marketing, but it raises the
question of how a firewall would best react to a DDOS scenario. I
recently read a page in the pfsense docs (can't find it in the wiki or
FAQ now), which I believe quoted the pfsense book (don't have it),
where cmb states that pfsense is the best open source firewall, and
one of the best firewalls at handling DDOS attacks.

So the thing I'm wondering now, is best practice in terms of hardening
pfsense against DDOS. Acknowledging that DDOS is best handled in
cooperation with your provider, what can we do at our end? Or are the
default firewall settings pretty tight in that regard? Is there
anything one might do that would inadvertently expose one's pfsense to
DDOS-related troubles?

db

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[pfSense Support] Re: pfsense and DDOS

2011-02-01 Thread David Burgess
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:25 PM, David Burgess apt@gmail.com wrote:

 I recently read a page in the pfsense docs (can't find it in the wiki or
 FAQ now), which I believe quoted the pfsense book (don't have it),
 where cmb states that pfsense is the best open source firewall, and
 one of the best firewalls at handling DDOS attacks.

ok, found it.

http://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?topic=10471.msg%msg_id%

db

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[pfSense Support] Buttons or menu options

2011-02-01 Thread Atkins, Dwane P
Good afternoon all.

When I click on certain buttons or options, I will get the source code instead 
of results.

The latest was http://10.10.10.10/reboot.php.  I clicked on the reboot menu 
option and it gave me source code.

Is there a way to stop this?

Dwane



Re: [pfSense Support] pfsense and DDOS

2011-02-01 Thread Charles N Wyble
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 02/01/2011 11:25 AM, David Burgess wrote:
 An article popped up on /. today, and although it's a poorly written
 article, some of the ensuing discussion did provoke some thought.
 
 http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/02/01/181200/Firewalls-Make-DDoS-Attacks-Worse

Firewalls do make DDOS attacks worse in front of a large web farm. The
state tables get exhausted very quickly. The various large web farms out
there don't have a firewall in front of them. Just run limited ports.

Of course they also have load balancers, packet sprayers, CDN etc. Not
your typical environment.



 
 
 So the thing I'm wondering now, is best practice in terms of hardening
 pfsense against DDOS. 

If it's a well executed DDOS, they can take you out with just a few
thousand pps. Just gotta know how to flood the session/state tables.
Granted with pfsense and an x86 box with lots of ram/cpu you'll probably
be fine for quite a while.

Do some research into the hardware router/firewall vs software based one
(in particular Linux based firewalling/routing) and you'll find all
sorts of material. BSD seems more mature.

- -- 
Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com)
Systems craftsman for the stars
http://www.knownelement.com
Mobile: 626 539 4344
Office: 310 929 8793
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Re: [pfSense Support] pfsense and DDOS

2011-02-01 Thread Chris Buechler
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 2:25 PM, David Burgess apt@gmail.com wrote:
 An article popped up on /. today, and although it's a poorly written
 article, some of the ensuing discussion did provoke some thought.

 http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/02/01/181200/Firewalls-Make-DDoS-Attacks-Worse

 I think the article is mostly just scare marketing, but it raises the
 question of how a firewall would best react to a DDOS scenario.

The article would be more accurate to say network components that are
inadequately sized or configured to handle a DDoS attack make them
worse. I've seen DDoS attacks with a packet rate to kill a Cisco
router at the edge with as simple of a routing configuration as can
possibly exist, but not nearly enough to kill the firewall sitting
behind it. For most of us, it matters none, we simply don't have
enough bandwidth, unless it's a lame attacker or you have a 10 Gb
Internet pipe (even that wouldn't be nearly enough for some attacks).

From experience fighting a number of DDoS attacks, what generally
happens is they'll throw enough at you to knock you offline, whatever
that takes. If you're running with a default 1 state table that
doesn't take much. Increase that and the attack gets bigger. At which
point you may max out your hardware's ability to handle states. Drop
in a box with more RAM and a much bigger state table, PF state timer
tweaks that can help when you have very high rates of state insertions
and deletions, and the attack gets bigger still - usually at this
point exhausting your Internet bandwidth. At which point you're stuck,
your ISP has to help you, nothing you put in place is going to relieve
the fact that your pipe is full. Usually they'll blackhole route the
affected IP so all your other IPs can function normally, and may do
other things depending on their infrastructure and the specific
attack. That's oversimplified a bit, but they've all followed that
same line.

If not properly sized and configured to handle a DDoS of the scale you
may see in your environment, yes your firewall is probably going to be
the first thing to fall over (unless you have an inadequate router in
front of it). But it really doesn't matter as if it does stand up,
experience at the level that virtually all of us are responsible for
(1-2 Gb Internet at most), they're going to kill your connection
regardless of what you have behind it.

If you're Google, Facebook, Yahoo, etc. yeah, you don't want firewalls
in front of your web farm. If you have a few hundred servers or less
(varying depending on specifics of the environment), it virtually
never matters, make sure you have decent settings in place to handle
as much as possible, and have a good relationship with your provider
and discuss with them in advance what they will do to help if you're
hit with a DDoS, and don't worry about it. Having a firewall as a
single ingress and egress point into small to mid sized hosting
environments is beneficial for many reasons, and properly sized and
configured it's not going to leave you any worse off when under DDoS
attack than you're going to be anyway.

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Re: [pfSense Support] Allow exe form a site only

2011-02-01 Thread Shali K.R.
How can i create it???

 You must create the first Destination category, what allow EXE from M$

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 10:36 PM, Serg serg.dvorian...@gmail.com wrote:



 - Original Message -
 *From:* Shali K.R. sh...@vidyaacademy.ac.in
 *To:* support@pfsense.com
 *Sent:* Tuesday, February 01, 2011 2:16 PM
 *Subject:* [pfSense Support] Allow exe form a site only

 Dear all,

 I have blocked exe  using squidguard.Is it possible to allow exes only from
 microsoft.com???

 --
 Thanks  Regards

 Shali K R
 Server Administrator
 Vidya Academy of Science  Technology
 Thrissur,Kerala.
 Mob:9846303531

 Hello.
 Yes, it's possible.
 You must create the first Destination category, what allow EXE from M$ and
 allow it as whitelist in the ACL.
 Also need create the second Destination category for block EXE from any
 site.

 Regards
 Sergey




-- 
Thanks  Regards

Shali K R
Server Administrator
Vidya Academy of Science  Technology
Thrissur,Kerala.
Mob:9846303531


Re: [pfSense Support] pfsense and DDOS

2011-02-01 Thread Sean Cavanaugh

sorry for top post.

Some better ISPs have options for rate limiting your connection in the event 
of a DDOS, meaning their systems will take the brunt of the hit and not 
route it to your firewall. this can vary from temporarily offlining you to 
absorb the packet storm or dropping connection attempts after a set pps 
level.


then again, this is also what right sizing your system load to handle and 
making proper systems to handle the load. there has to be some set level at 
which you will just stop trying to stay online and just offline yourself so 
as not to be absorbing useless traffic.


In general I disagree with the idea as some servers/services are harder to 
recover from DDOS attacks than the firewall filling its state table and 
slowly dumping them. I've seen webservers going into full kernel panics 
where a firewall/router taking the hit would have just locked up for a 
minute or so.


In general it should be a multi-staged approach, not a single piece of 
wondergear doing everything.


-Sean

-Original Message- 
From: Charles N Wyble

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:39 PM
To: support@pfsense.com
Subject: Re: [pfSense Support] pfsense and DDOS

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Hash: SHA1

On 02/01/2011 11:25 AM, David Burgess wrote:

An article popped up on /. today, and although it's a poorly written
article, some of the ensuing discussion did provoke some thought.

http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/02/01/181200/Firewalls-Make-DDoS-Attacks-Worse


Firewalls do make DDOS attacks worse in front of a large web farm. The
state tables get exhausted very quickly. The various large web farms out
there don't have a firewall in front of them. Just run limited ports.

Of course they also have load balancers, packet sprayers, CDN etc. Not
your typical environment.






So the thing I'm wondering now, is best practice in terms of hardening
pfsense against DDOS.


If it's a well executed DDOS, they can take you out with just a few
thousand pps. Just gotta know how to flood the session/state tables.
Granted with pfsense and an x86 box with lots of ram/cpu you'll probably
be fine for quite a while.

Do some research into the hardware router/firewall vs software based one
(in particular Linux based firewalling/routing) and you'll find all
sorts of material. BSD seems more mature.

- -- 
Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com)

Systems craftsman for the stars
http://www.knownelement.com
Mobile: 626 539 4344
Office: 310 929 8793
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