Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 24/12/2009 03:29, Rufus told the world: SM 1.1.18 does what I need, and the way I need it done. And I've been looking over alternatives left and right - Firefox...nogo. Camino, Stainless, Chrome, and Safari all look like they have common roots. Almost, but not quite. Camino is based on Gecko, the same as Firefox, Seamonkey and Flock. All the others you mentioned are Webkit-based, and therefore will render similarly (except for Javascript, because they use different engines for that). Granted. But that's all under the hood...I'm talking strictly as a user, and to me as a user they all appear very similar. And understandable because they share common roots, but I also find it interesting that they just plain look so much alike. I'm going to have to really dig to find out what one may or may not do that another doesn't do - generally I start by comparing user Preference panels and options. When I can find an option set I like, that's usually the one for me. Which was what drew me to Netscape, Mozilla Suite, and then Seamonkey in the first place, has kept me using it, and encouraging others to use it. I think the biggest difference between me and most of the users I recommend SM to is that they have no need for a newsreader - I'm becoming more an more surprised that most of them have never even heard of usenet - if you can't get there with a URL, they're stumped...and I'm particularly surprised because a lot of these guys are professional coder-geeks and PhDs. But to each their own - I have a ton of hobbies, and I really like usenet forums for exchanging information in support of my hobbies...so I'm a SM fan mostly because of that. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Interviewed by CNN on 24/12/2009 03:29, Rufus told the world: > SM 1.1.18 does what I need, and the way I need it done. And I've been > looking over alternatives left and right - Firefox...nogo. Camino, > Stainless, Chrome, and Safari all look like they have common roots. Almost, but not quite. Camino is based on Gecko, the same as Firefox, Seamonkey and Flock. All the others you mentioned are Webkit-based, and therefore will render similarly (except for Javascript, because they use different engines for that). -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... BOFH excuse #450: Terrorists crashed an airplane into the server room, have to remove /bin/laden. (rm -rf /bin/laden) * TagZilla 0.0661 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org on Seamonkey 2.0 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: ...holy crap. How can you even call it a "team", if there's no discipline or coordination between the "team" members - volunteers or not? I'm beginning to understand what the core problem here is...and I'm not much encouraged by what I'm learning/hearing. Some od that is just what comes out of being open source, some of it comes out of unccoperative Netscape workers of the old times. The former category is hard to change, the latter is somehwat easier. Hopefully, the best and most "forward" move to come with the 2.x release series will be some discipline and cooperative standards... We actually have a improved vastly with the switch from 1.x to 2.x, as indeed a lot of that old code had some strange standards and not well-explained code, while the newer code is in better shape overall - even though we have some bad code in the platform from early Firefox development days, but newer code is better and usually more consistent there as well (I won't dive into slightly different coding standards in SeaMonkey-specific code and Firefox/platform code here though). Robert Kaiser That's encouraging. Maybe things will head in the right direction. Sometimes a solution has far more to do with mindset than ability or resources. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Bill Davidsen schrieb: Don't take that as criticism, it's my honest comment on the mismatch in code styles, not the competence of the authors as individuals. You have my sympathy, but I'm never going to work on code like that again. I applaud your courage to work on code from so many origins. The code got better overall with getting rid of some old code, and there's a few more rewrites underway to make things more consistent and reduce awkward and badly documented parts in the code. We have a really large code base overall in Mozilla though, so such cleanups always take a lot of time. Still, depending on what you did look at, chances are that 2.x code already looks a lot better than 1.x code did. Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Rufus schrieb: ...holy crap. How can you even call it a "team", if there's no discipline or coordination between the "team" members - volunteers or not? I'm beginning to understand what the core problem here is...and I'm not much encouraged by what I'm learning/hearing. Some od that is just what comes out of being open source, some of it comes out of unccoperative Netscape workers of the old times. The former category is hard to change, the latter is somehwat easier. Hopefully, the best and most "forward" move to come with the 2.x release series will be some discipline and cooperative standards... We actually have a improved vastly with the switch from 1.x to 2.x, as indeed a lot of that old code had some strange standards and not well-explained code, while the newer code is in better shape overall - even though we have some bad code in the platform from early Firefox development days, but newer code is better and usually more consistent there as well (I won't dive into slightly different coding standards in SeaMonkey-specific code and Firefox/platform code here though). Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Philip Chee wrote: On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 19:02:46 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote: Unfortunately yes. And I looked at SM code briefly and decided it was the mutant offspring of people who met, drunk, at a masquerade ball. I have worked on projects where some programmers "marched to a different drummer," but some of the authors heard a whole other brass band. Did you know that the Netscape engineer who designed and implemented the Mork file format wrote all his newsgroup/forum postings in haiku? I am sure you will not be surprised that mozilla is moving as fast as possible to replace all uses of mork with sqlite. Despite some performance problems with sqlite (due to it being a general purpose RDBMS to be sure) the code is much much, well, saner, not to mention being actually understandable by mere mortals. Phil ...holy crap. How can you even call it a "team", if there's no discipline or coordination between the "team" members - volunteers or not? I'm beginning to understand what the core problem here is...and I'm not much encouraged by what I'm learning/hearing. Hopefully, the best and most "forward" move to come with the 2.x release series will be some discipline and cooperative standards... SM 1.1.18 does what I need, and the way I need it done. And I've been looking over alternatives left and right - Firefox...nogo. Camino, Stainless, Chrome, and Safari all look like they have common roots. Thunderbird 3.0 - I have to say I'm increasingly impressed the more I use it. So, it's looking like I may end up dropping my predilection for the integrated suite. At least I'm finding alternatives that would fit my preference as a user. But SM 1.1.18 still kicks it. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 19:02:46 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote: > Unfortunately yes. And I looked at SM code briefly and decided it was the > mutant > offspring of people who met, drunk, at a masquerade ball. I have worked on > projects where some programmers "marched to a different drummer," but some of > the authors heard a whole other brass band. Did you know that the Netscape engineer who designed and implemented the Mork file format wrote all his newsgroup/forum postings in haiku? I am sure you will not be surprised that mozilla is moving as fast as possible to replace all uses of mork with sqlite. Despite some performance problems with sqlite (due to it being a general purpose RDBMS to be sure) the code is much much, well, saner, not to mention being actually understandable by mere mortals. Phil -- Philip Chee , http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. [ ]A man needs a good memory after he has lied. * TagZilla 0.066.6 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Benoit Renard wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. I object to this. SeaMonkey 1.1.x is very usable without extensions. In general I agree with that, other than a few media bits needed to play various streaming media, SM 1.1.xx runs fine. -- Bill Davidsen "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Robert Kaiser wrote:
Right, it is. And even maintaining al bunch of code you don't really
know and which is sometimes written in strange ways is a quite hard job,
have you ever tried that?
Unfortunately yes. And I looked at SM code briefly and decided it was the mutant
offspring of people who met, drunk, at a masquerade ball. I have worked on
projects where some programmers "marched to a different drummer," but some of
the authors heard a whole other brass band.
Don't take that as criticism, it's my honest comment on the mismatch in code
styles, not the competence of the authors as individuals. You have my sympathy,
but I'm never going to work on code like that again. I applaud your courage to
work on code from so many origins.
The SeaMonkey project mostly consists of people who have never worked on
many parts of the code that the old suite had, most of us worked only in
user interface ("frontend") parts and never in the platform code
("backend") those interfaces build on, so we are simply unable to
maintain it.
Our only chance of keeping SeaMonkey alive at all was to reduce the
amount of unknown code we cannot maintain and replace it with code that
is being maintained by someone else - which meant switching to the newer
Mozilla platform, of which e.g. the new form management code is a part of.
If I may say, what is there is more "field management" than form management,
because what is needed is to be able to save the entire form (values) as a named
whole, not the values of the fields, requiring the user to go and change each
field. So I can have *sets* of data to plug into a given form.
Now, that we have switched to that base and can let the old stuff die,
we can look into ways to improve the newly acquired things and those
parts of code that we have in the application now and should be able to
maintain.
If I might offer a suggestion, if there was better documentation on writing
extensions, the interfaces available to be used, some of these problems might be
solved by people who have a need. just my thought.
--
Bill Davidsen
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
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Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
MCBastos wrote: Again, it's a matter of manpower. SM *was* going somewhat independently from Firefox for the last few years, on the 1.1 branch -- and what was the result? The rendering engine was looking more and more dated every day, ditto for the Javascript engine and other core stuff. That had nothing to do with using XPFE instead of toolkit, though. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Philip Chee wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:28:43 -0200, MCBastos wrote: You have a boat. It has a wooden hull, it's old and leaky. You have three guys to work on the boat. They spend all the time plugging leaks. Then someone offers you a brand-new, fiberglass hull. You move your engine, bunks, head, kitchen etc. to the new hull. Only, a couple bunks didn't fit the new hull (despite it being actually a little bigger), so you had to do without them for the time being. Sure, right now you have less bunks -- but your three guys have a lot of free time now, so they "fewer" bunks. Phil (sorry, couldn't resist) ...it's de-bunked. (I couldn't resist either...) -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:28:43 -0200, MCBastos wrote: > You have a boat. It has a wooden hull, it's old and leaky. You have > three guys to work on the boat. They spend all the time plugging leaks. > Then someone offers you a brand-new, fiberglass hull. You move your > engine, bunks, head, kitchen etc. to the new hull. Only, a couple bunks > didn't fit the new hull (despite it being actually a little bigger), so > you had to do without them for the time being. Sure, right now you have > less bunks -- but your three guys have a lot of free time now, so they "fewer" bunks. Phil (sorry, couldn't resist) -- Philip Chee , http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Benoit Renard wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. I object to this. SeaMonkey 1.1.x is very usable without extensions. Well, it depends on your usage. Sure it works. But so does Safari/Mail, FF/TB, Opera, and any other number of other applications, or combination of applications. Heck, so does Netscape 7.2, though the browser is feeling its age. But to get it to work for me, with the functions I depend on, requires extensions. I have a great appreciation for the convenience of one application for mail, newsgroups, and RSS feeds. SM 1.1.x out of the box does not do RSS, it requires an extension, Forumzilla worked pretty well for me. PrefBar is a convenience, but a very handy one that I install first thing. Web Developer Toolbar is one I rely on. Mnenhy, Quote Collapse, Quote Colors, FolderPane Tools make Mail/News far more usable. Lightning has become a must have for full functionality. FlashBlock, Tab Clicking Options are very important to me for function in the browser. FireFTP is handy. ForecastFox is not a really necessary item, but I also find it very handy. A lot of these extensions were fine in SM 1 1.x, but many required xSidebar to install. Without xSidebar and the Extension Manager extension, there was no extension management to peak of, making it a real chore. So sure, if your needs are simply to browse the internet, read mail and newsgroups, SM 1.1.x is fine out of the box. For me it is not, and I stand by my statement. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 21/12/2009 03:32, Rufus told the world: And I guess that's what I don't get...volunteers are generally more dedicated and principled than paid hacks. Or at least the ones I've encountered have been...so I'm not into coddling them. They are, but since they aren't getting paid, they can't give as many hours to the project -- they have day jobs. A paid programmer can give 8 hours/day, at least 200 days a year. A volunteer can give MAYBE 2 hours/day. If he's really dedicated and enthusiastic. Some paid programmer started out as volunteers, and are as enthusiastic as any volunteer, by the way. All those programmer man-month add up. Yes...so they move slower. I don't have any issue with that.1 So I really don't get why they've knuckled under and merely imported TB and FF code instead of maintaining their own, based on that code...this is all open source, right? So where did the best of the good stuff go, just because the paid hacks got paid to drop it? Open = independent, I thought? Seamonkey simply does not have nearly as much manpower available as Firefox -- and, as KaiRo pointed out, the Seamonkey volunteers lack expertise in some areas that would be essential to splitting out entirely. ...again - slower change, but try not to allow change for the worse simply in the interest of "change". The source code to what you call "the good stuff" is still available -- but it's not compatible with the new core in its present form. If someone with the necessary expertise, willingness and available time will step up and adapt it to the new core, it can be revived. So far nobody volunteered. Requires forethought, a roadmap, and planning. Not sure that it may not be too late at this point - it has to be a constant, continuing effort or things get too far behind to recover...or to recover gracefully. Branch out or die...let SM become it's own project, or we might as well all just use FF and TB. Otherwise we won't be getting anything more than FF and TB linked together in one app. That's not much reason to choose. Again, it's a matter of manpower. SM *was* going somewhat independently from Firefox for the last few years, on the 1.1 branch -- and what was the result? The rendering engine was looking more and more dated every day, ditto for the Javascript engine and other core stuff. It lacked several modern security enhancements, it lacked a decent extensions manager, it lacked a decent upgrade mechanism. Moving to the Firefox toolkit gave us all of those in a fell swoop. The under the hood stuff may have looked dated, but the 1.x.x user interface and functionality provided was the best on the planet, IMO. The move to the FF toolkit may have fixed stuff I can't see, but what I CAN see has taken a leap backwards. One more reason to code in a modular and transportable manner - "toolkit" or not. And let's not forget the extensions ecosystem. Which, frankly, was dying on Seamonkey. Lots of extensions weren't available for SM, or had reduced functionality -- because it was a lot more work for extensions developers to support SM. That trend is reverting now: more and more extensions are being brought to SM. Personally, I don't use extensions - SM has given me what I need and served my needs right out of the box. So from a personal standpoint I'd have let extensions die and tried to build the more popular stuff into the app. But that likely wouldn't please everyone either - not to mention that being a fan and proponent of modularity, after consideration I'd probably have changed my mind. My take on the move? It's like the old saying, to give one step backwards to leap two forwards. Yes, some stuff didn't get moved/recreated immediately -- the forms manager seems to be the most visible complaint. However, the move will release developers from doing stuff that was just duplicating efforts from the FF/TB guys, so they can now concentrate on doing new stuff. Speaking personally again, I never used the Forms Manager...probably because I couldn't tell if its information was encrypted when stored. But if I'd have been able to tell, yeah - I'd be using it. And that's really what most of my major beefs with the 2.x.x releases are about - most of my issues have to do with things which are really under the control of someone building the GUI - like better text information in dialog boxes, properly sized buttons, etc. Not really nuts and bolts stuff that I can't see...other than type and application encryption - and again, a simple dialog box or header could provide me that information. Yeah, I can see where someone that used the Forms Manager would be REALLY annoyed that it's now missing - me, not so much because I didn't use it. Now that I'm more aware of what a convenience it could be, I'm becoming more annoyed that it's missing myself. But once again - information that may have made me more likely to use it was n
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Interviewed by CNN on 21/12/2009 03:32, Rufus told the world: > > And I guess that's what I don't get...volunteers are generally more > dedicated and principled than paid hacks. Or at least the ones I've > encountered have been...so I'm not into coddling them. They are, but since they aren't getting paid, they can't give as many hours to the project -- they have day jobs. A paid programmer can give 8 hours/day, at least 200 days a year. A volunteer can give MAYBE 2 hours/day. If he's really dedicated and enthusiastic. Some paid programmer started out as volunteers, and are as enthusiastic as any volunteer, by the way. All those programmer man-month add up. > So I really don't get why they've knuckled under and merely imported TB > and FF code instead of maintaining their own, based on that code...this > is all open source, right? So where did the best of the good stuff go, > just because the paid hacks got paid to drop it? Open = independent, I > thought? Seamonkey simply does not have nearly as much manpower available as Firefox -- and, as KaiRo pointed out, the Seamonkey volunteers lack expertise in some areas that would be essential to splitting out entirely. The source code to what you call "the good stuff" is still available -- but it's not compatible with the new core in its present form. If someone with the necessary expertise, willingness and available time will step up and adapt it to the new core, it can be revived. So far nobody volunteered. > Branch out or die...let SM become it's own project, or we might as well > all just use FF and TB. Otherwise we won't be getting anything more > than FF and TB linked together in one app. That's not much reason to > choose. Again, it's a matter of manpower. SM *was* going somewhat independently from Firefox for the last few years, on the 1.1 branch -- and what was the result? The rendering engine was looking more and more dated every day, ditto for the Javascript engine and other core stuff. It lacked several modern security enhancements, it lacked a decent extensions manager, it lacked a decent upgrade mechanism. Moving to the Firefox toolkit gave us all of those in a fell swoop. And let's not forget the extensions ecosystem. Which, frankly, was dying on Seamonkey. Lots of extensions weren't available for SM, or had reduced functionality -- because it was a lot more work for extensions developers to support SM. That trend is reverting now: more and more extensions are being brought to SM. My take on the move? It's like the old saying, to give one step backwards to leap two forwards. Yes, some stuff didn't get moved/recreated immediately -- the forms manager seems to be the most visible complaint. However, the move will release developers from doing stuff that was just duplicating efforts from the FF/TB guys, so they can now concentrate on doing new stuff. You have a boat. It has a wooden hull, it's old and leaky. You have three guys to work on the boat. They spend all the time plugging leaks. Then someone offers you a brand-new, fiberglass hull. You move your engine, bunks, head, kitchen etc. to the new hull. Only, a couple bunks didn't fit the new hull (despite it being actually a little bigger), so you had to do without them for the time being. Sure, right now you have less bunks -- but your three guys have a lot of free time now, so they can not only build new bunks but even to figure out how to fit a freaking home theater in the boat. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... BOFH excuse #308: CD-ROM server needs recalibration * TagZilla 0.0661 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org on Seamonkey 2.0 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Benoit Renard wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. I object to this. SeaMonkey 1.1.x is very usable without extensions. Second. It does about everything I need right out of the box...I don't even need to go looking for a suitable Theme. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Robert Kaiser wrote:
Rufus wrote:
So I really don't get why they've knuckled under and merely imported TB
and FF code instead of maintaining their own, based on that code...this
is all open source, right?
Right, it is. And even maintaining al bunch of code you don't really
know and which is sometimes written in strange ways is a quite hard job,
have you ever tried that?
Yes, that I understand...try porting functionality written in raw
machine code to C++ for an entire integrated system and then maintaining
like configurations on a dual path for each - where the requirement is
that the two interfaces remain EXACT duplicates of each other for common
functions. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying that there is a
required discipline, order, and approach to doing the job in order to
get it done.
But SM has been going on for some years...decades? That should have
been enough time to shape it up. If people have been focused.
The SeaMonkey project mostly consists of people who have never worked on
many parts of the code that the old suite had, most of us worked only in
user interface ("frontend") parts and never in the platform code
("backend") those interfaces build on, so we are simply unable to
maintain it.
Again, understood. But yet another reason for shaping up the code along
the way so that the next volunteer can figure it out. That should be a
common overall goal/responsibility. And I assume you can feedback input
to the backend coders?
Our only chance of keeping SeaMonkey alive at all was to reduce the
amount of unknown code we cannot maintain and replace it with code that
is being maintained by someone else - which meant switching to the newer
Mozilla platform, of which e.g. the new form management code is a part of.
If you're talking about the Forms Manager, I noted it's not in Firefox
either, so I can only assume it's gone for good - unless the SM team is
coding it anew. Which I doubt, given what you've said.
Now, that we have switched to that base and can let the old stuff die,
we can look into ways to improve the newly acquired things and those
parts of code that we have in the application now and should be able to
maintain.
Robert Kaiser
I'd be even more pleased if people were looking into ways to port
familiar and popular feature sets into the new code structure...which it
doesn't sound like is going to happen - not when I hear things about
"old stuff dying".
--
- Rufus
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Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Phillip Jones wrote: Rufus wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: /snip/ Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil VirtualBox is great, though I've never tried on a G4, which is where Phillip is. Still not an answer for a full time browser regardless. Safari would be the best, though I know he doesn't want to go there. Lee I have Safari I and I can do less with it than SM and its slower. I agree. I think Phil is getting a bit frustrated. I don't blame him. He and the others have worked very hard on trying to keep this thing alive, and you, among others, really don't seem to understand or appreciate that. Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. The unfortunately few devs on this project are users who didn't want the concept to die. This isn't Firefox or Thunderbird, where there are paid workers. The developers here do care, or there wouldn't be any project. I don't mean to say let them have a free pass. But, for heavens sake, lets treat them with the respect they deserve. Lee And I guess that's what I don't get...volunteers are generally more dedicated and principled than paid hacks. Or at least the ones I've encountered have been...so I'm not into coddling them. So I really don't get why they've knuckled under and merely imported TB and FF code instead of maintaining their own, based on that code...this is all open source, right? So where did the best of the good stuff go, just because the paid hacks got paid to drop it? Open = independent, I thought? Branch out or die...let SM become it's own project, or we might as well all just use FF and TB. Otherwise we won't be getting anything more than FF and TB linked together in one app. That's not much reason to choose. I've already explained with I won't use FF/TB combination. They don't play nice together. I tried FF on my MacBook last night...all I had to do was to look over the Prefs selections to determine that it's feature set wasn't suitable for what I'd like to be using. I used App Delete to get rid of it...after about 10 minutes with it. I do have to say that I've been pleasantly surprised by Thunderbird 3.0 though. It's Mac interface actually looks like a Mac interface. And I've only got two kicks against it so far - when it did the import from my SM profile, it imported ALL of my Password Manager content instead of just the Mail/News portions; and that the Attachment icon in the Preview tray is too small - if it scaled with the tray size that would be nice. I'll still only use it as an alternative Usenet reader, though. Mail.app is my primary. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Leonidas Jones wrote: Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. I object to this. SeaMonkey 1.1.x is very usable without extensions. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
On 12/21/2009 5:14 PM, Robert Kaiser wrote: snip Our only chance of keeping SeaMonkey alive at all was to reduce the amount of unknown code we cannot maintain and replace it with code that is being maintained by someone else - which meant switching to the newer Mozilla platform, of which e.g. the new form management code is a part of. snip You do have a very valid point. My concern is, it works both ways. The other side of the coin is, since this is a volunteer venture, how can we hope that in x number of years, the new volunteers will not consider the present code "unmaintainable"? Given all this, I marvel at the fact, at a time when some people just make outrageous amounts of money by being (too) smart with other people's hard earned money, some volunteers dedicate time to Seamonkey. This puts my reluctance with SM2 in perspective and I wish I had the technical ability to contribute better and more efficiently than by occasional posts ... -- John Doue ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Rufus wrote:
So I really don't get why they've knuckled under and merely imported TB
and FF code instead of maintaining their own, based on that code...this
is all open source, right?
Right, it is. And even maintaining al bunch of code you don't really
know and which is sometimes written in strange ways is a quite hard job,
have you ever tried that?
The SeaMonkey project mostly consists of people who have never worked on
many parts of the code that the old suite had, most of us worked only in
user interface ("frontend") parts and never in the platform code
("backend") those interfaces build on, so we are simply unable to
maintain it.
Our only chance of keeping SeaMonkey alive at all was to reduce the
amount of unknown code we cannot maintain and replace it with code that
is being maintained by someone else - which meant switching to the newer
Mozilla platform, of which e.g. the new form management code is a part of.
Now, that we have switched to that base and can let the old stuff die,
we can look into ways to improve the newly acquired things and those
parts of code that we have in the application now and should be able to
maintain.
Robert Kaiser
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Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Rufus wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: /snip/ Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil VirtualBox is great, though I've never tried on a G4, which is where Phillip is. Still not an answer for a full time browser regardless. Safari would be the best, though I know he doesn't want to go there. Lee I have Safari I and I can do less with it than SM and its slower. I agree. I think Phil is getting a bit frustrated. I don't blame him. He and the others have worked very hard on trying to keep this thing alive, and you, among others, really don't seem to understand or appreciate that. Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. The unfortunately few devs on this project are users who didn't want the concept to die. This isn't Firefox or Thunderbird, where there are paid workers. The developers here do care, or there wouldn't be any project. I don't mean to say let them have a free pass. But, for heavens sake, lets treat them with the respect they deserve. Lee And I guess that's what I don't get...volunteers are generally more dedicated and principled than paid hacks. Or at least the ones I've encountered have been...so I'm not into coddling them. So I really don't get why they've knuckled under and merely imported TB and FF code instead of maintaining their own, based on that code...this is all open source, right? So where did the best of the good stuff go, just because the paid hacks got paid to drop it? Open = independent, I thought? Branch out or die...let SM become it's own project, or we might as well all just use FF and TB. Otherwise we won't be getting anything more than FF and TB linked together in one app. That's not much reason to choose. I've already explained with I won't use FF/TB combination. They don't play nice together. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it" http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: /snip/ Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil VirtualBox is great, though I've never tried on a G4, which is where Phillip is. Still not an answer for a full time browser regardless. Safari would be the best, though I know he doesn't want to go there. Lee I have Safari I and I can do less with it than SM and its slower. I agree. I think Phil is getting a bit frustrated. I don't blame him. He and the others have worked very hard on trying to keep this thing alive, and you, among others, really don't seem to understand or appreciate that. Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. The unfortunately few devs on this project are users who didn't want the concept to die. This isn't Firefox or Thunderbird, where there are paid workers. The developers here do care, or there wouldn't be any project. I don't mean to say let them have a free pass. But, for heavens sake, lets treat them with the respect they deserve. Lee And I guess that's what I don't get...volunteers are generally more dedicated and principled than paid hacks. Or at least the ones I've encountered have been...so I'm not into coddling them. So I really don't get why they've knuckled under and merely imported TB and FF code instead of maintaining their own, based on that code...this is all open source, right? So where did the best of the good stuff go, just because the paid hacks got paid to drop it? Open = independent, I thought? Branch out or die...let SM become it's own project, or we might as well all just use FF and TB. Otherwise we won't be getting anything more than FF and TB linked together in one app. That's not much reason to choose. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: /snip/ Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil VirtualBox is great, though I've never tried on a G4, which is where Phillip is. Still not an answer for a full time browser regardless. Safari would be the best, though I know he doesn't want to go there. Lee I have Safari I and I can do less with it than SM and its slower. I agree. I think Phil is getting a bit frustrated. I don't blame him. He and the others have worked very hard on trying to keep this thing alive, and you, among others, really don't seem to understand or appreciate that. Phil, in large measure, kept SM 1.1.x usable by his incredible work on xSidebar and porting Firefox and Thunderbird extensions to work in SeaMonkey. Without that, 1.1.x was really not a usable piece of work, at least without Multizilla, which basically converted it to another application entirely. The unfortunately few devs on this project are users who didn't want the concept to die. This isn't Firefox or Thunderbird, where there are paid workers. The developers here do care, or there wouldn't be any project. I don't mean to say let them have a free pass. But, for heavens sake, lets treat them with the respect they deserve. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of "Open Source". Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil VirtualBox is great, though I've never tried on a G4, which is where Phillip is. Still not an answer for a full time browser regardless. Safari would be the best, though I know he doesn't want to go there. Lee I have Safari I and I can do less with it than SM and its slower. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it" http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Who are Seamonkey's core user base?till not an answer
Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:25:37 -0500, Leonidas Jones wrote: Philip Chee wrote: You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of "Open Source". Perhaps you should just give up and install Maxthon. Not an option, he's on a Mac. Parellels, VMWare Fusion, probably Virtual Box. Phil VirtualBox is great, though I've never tried on a G4, which is where Phillip is. Still not an answer for a full time browser regardless. Safari would be the best, though I know he doesn't want to go there. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
