Re: [Sursound] Catching the same fly twice (and a curious question)

[Dave Hunt]

Hi,

I missed this discussion, being away for a short break.

A BBC radio reviewer of the film 'Avatar' said that when he came out  
of the film into Camden High Street, it seemed, curiously, not in 3D.


Film, TV and audio productions generally are not attempting to be  
real. Everything deemed superfluous is weeded out, creating a sort of  
hyper-reality.


Ciao,

Dave Hunt


Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 19:37:14 +0200
From: J?rn Nettingsmeier  
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Catching the same fly twice (and a curious
question)

On 05/31/2012 11:38 AM, Richard Dobson wrote:

On 31/05/2012 10:03, Dave Malham wrote:
..
Here, to any extent, I depart from Gibson. With sufficiently  
advanced
technology there comes a point at which the effort required to  
suspend
disbelief is so small as to be negligible. I was reading a report  
on a
paper a few months ago (I think in New Scientist) where the  
authors were
suggesting that some on-line gamers have difficult perceiving the  
"real

world" as actually being real when they come out of the games.


But surely that is more appropriately regarded as a
pathological/delusional mental state (and very possibly a dangerous
one), not a natural one representing some sort of technological  
nirvana.
There is a world of difference between entertaining and even  
immersing

in a fantasy as such (as in attending any Shakespeare play), and a
delusion leading to possibly dysfunctional behaviour in "the real
world". Shall we call this the "Matrix Syndrome"?


allow me to suspend the circling of wagons to offer a personal  
anecdote:

there is a strategy game that involves pushing rows of black and white
marbles around on (and ultimately off of) a hexagonal grid, i guess  
it's

called "abalone".

when i have played this game (and staring at the round and hexagonal
shapes intensely) for half an hour or so, and i look my opponent in  
the

face, my perception of that face has changed - it looks chiselled or
square-edged to me. looking at my own hands, their shape is unfamiliar
and slightly unpleasant. looking around the room, i'm acutely aware of
right angles all over the place and perceive them as unnatural.

this effect takes at least a minute to subside.

3D movies have a similar effect on me: unless they are totally
unbelievable, the skewed depth perception is accepted as "normal" over
the course of the movie, and when i leave the cinema, the real depth
perception is suddenly so remarkable that i become consciously  
aware of
depth cues which would normally be ignored as "nothing out of the  
ordinary".


despite these pathological mental states, my functioning in the real
world has not been affected (or so i'd like to believe). hence, i'm
confidently resuming the circling of wagons now.


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Re: [Sursound] Setting up my first ambisonic system

[Peter Lennox]

1st order or second, horizontal only or full periphonic, how many speakers, 
what radius, how many punters at any one time, any flying problems?

p.s. - I've had decent results with a 2nd order 32 speaker rig on a dome, with 
crossovers in the B-format chain, using 8x subs in horizontal 1st order - floor 
standing - gets rid of a lot of the flying problems

Dr Peter Lennox
School of Technology 
University of Derby, UK
tel: 01332 593155
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk  

-Original Message-
From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On 
Behalf Of Anthony Palomba
Sent: 06 June 2012 18:33
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: [Sursound] Setting up my first ambisonic system

Hey folks,

I am looking to setup an ambisonic sounds system for use in music
performance.

I apologize if this subject has come up already, but I tried searching the
email archive, the search feature does not work!

The general idea is to have multiple audio tracks encoded in Max/MSP and
then
send that to a decoder which would then send the audio to speakers.

Some questions:
1. what kind of decoder should I use: hardware or software?
I assume is using a software decoder it will be running on another
computer.

2. What would be a good scalable and portable strategy to get the audio to
the speakers?
Running a bunch of cables all over the place would be a nightmare. Are there
wireless options?




Thanks,
Anthony
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Re: [Sursound] B- Format to A-format conversion for an ambisonics fx (SERO SERO)

[Dave Malham]

Hi Sero

Not sure I understand what you mean by "(current ICST encoder is an encoder from mono to 
B-format + panner)" since the panner is what does the encoding to B format. However, on to the next 
point - for simple effects like pure delay, eq or gain changes, you don't need to do anything in 
terms of further rotations, it will all just follow on. However, if you want to have a B format 
feedback path from the output of the delay to the input, you might like to put a rotator in the 
feedback path so that successive copies of the original soundfield appear from different angles. I'm 
not sure if the ICST externals incorporate a field rotation object (I could be wrong - it's a while 
since I used them) so you might have to look elsewhere for that. What order are you working at?


 Dave


On 06/06/2012 15:57, SERO SERO wrote:

Hello All,

thank you very much for your responses, very much appreciated.

Dave - Thank you for the links and the ideas regarding the application of
delay effect to the B-foramt signal; one thing is not clear to me yet is
the following and I would be very grateful if you can expand further for me:

I have a mono source that is encoded in B-format and already include the
rotational information in the encoder (current ICST encoder is an encoder
from mono to B-format + panner) so if I apply delay to the B-format signal
I am assuming I will already have the system responding to source rotation
when I rotate my source without further panning the fx soundfield.
Am I correct or I do need to rotate the delay fx soundfield as well
according to the source rotation?

Both solution are possible as I will use a typical send/return fx path
(%wet) for the fx.

Gus - Thank you for the link, Cannot check now in the office but will have
a look one evening.
I am definitely up for sharing ideas and patches. Please feel free to write
on my sursound email for any personal communication.

Very grateful for all the help from the list.

Thankyou

Sero



Message: 3
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 21:33:58 +0100
From: Dave Malham
Subject: Re: [Sursound] B- Format to A-format conversion for an
ambisonics fx
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Message-ID:
http://www.tech.dmu.ac.uk/~dylan/z/dylan/project/holog/index.html).
The same applies to pretty well any effect - if you apply a boost of,
say, +2.65dB at 5kHz to the W channel, you must  apply an identical
boost of+2.65dB at 5kHz to all the other channels.

Dave

On 3 June 2012 19:53, SERO SERO  wrote:

Hello list,

This is my first post here so please be patient if I am doing something
wrong with the replies.

I am working on a patch in MAX 6 for Ambisonics reproduction for a jazz
band and I am looking in creating a series of FX that can be encoded in

3rd

order.

My main understanding is that for a delay FX type (and any other fx that
affects the phase of the signal) I need to convert the B-format signal to
A-format, then apply the fx I want and then reconvert to B-format.

Does anyone can point me to any resource I can use to understand both
conversions?
Also can you share a patch u have done in Max (if anyone use it) I can

use

as a reference?

I use the ICST tools in Max 6 for all the ambisonics processing.

I am already using the trick of applying delay FX to a mono source before
enconding and then use rotation of the sound field to create ping pong

like

fx but I would like to do something more creative.

Thank you very much

Regards,
Sero
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--

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer

Dave Malham
Music Research Centre
Department of Music
The University of York
Heslington
York YO10 5DD
UK
Phone 01904 322448
Fax? ?? 01904 322450
'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'


--

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 21:55:37 +0100
From: Augustine Leudar
Subject: Re: [Sursound] B- Format to A-format conversion for an
ambisonics fx
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Message-ID:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cmodvSM5jE

Id be happy to share knowledge patches etc ,
cheers,
Gus






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--
 These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer
/*/
/* Dave Malham   http://music.york.ac.uk/staff/research/dave-malham/ */
/* Music Research Centre   

Re: [Sursound] Setting up my first ambisonic system

[Anthony Palomba]

The size of the room will vary from venue to venue. I also have to keep
in mind the logistics of how much gear I will have to haul around, as well
as the cost.

But I was think 12 speakers configured in a two level ring
or cube around the audience. Are 12 speakers enough to
effectively produce spatial placement?




-ap





On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> 1st order or second, horizontal only or full periphonic, how many
> speakers, what radius, how many punters at any one time, any flying
> problems?
>
> p.s. - I've had decent results with a 2nd order 32 speaker rig on a dome,
> with crossovers in the B-format chain, using 8x subs in horizontal 1st
> order - floor standing - gets rid of a lot of the flying problems
>
> Dr Peter Lennox
> School of Technology
> University of Derby, UK
> tel: 01332 593155
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
>
> -Original Message-
> From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
> On Behalf Of Anthony Palomba
> Sent: 06 June 2012 18:33
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: [Sursound] Setting up my first ambisonic system
>
> Hey folks,
>
> I am looking to setup an ambisonic sounds system for use in music
> performance.
>
> I apologize if this subject has come up already, but I tried searching the
> email archive, the search feature does not work!
>
> The general idea is to have multiple audio tracks encoded in Max/MSP and
> then
> send that to a decoder which would then send the audio to speakers.
>
> Some questions:
> 1. what kind of decoder should I use: hardware or software?
> I assume is using a software decoder it will be running on another
> computer.
>
> 2. What would be a good scalable and portable strategy to get the audio to
> the speakers?
> Running a bunch of cables all over the place would be a nightmare. Are
> there
> wireless options?
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
> Anthony
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> _
> The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and
> reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was
> sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email.
> Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk.
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[Sursound] www.michaelgerzonphotos.org.uk is back online

[Peter Craven]

Stephen Thornton tells me that there has been a technical problem
recently, but all should be well now.

Peter Craven


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