[Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA
Ok lets have a proximity off ! One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ speakers) - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was better but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back from Ircam of voices right in front of them . So my question is to those that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity illusions ? Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/d28778e8/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
[Sursound] a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse response
Dear all Thanks to Rodrigo Constanzo we have the first video tutorial of how to use and abuse the fruit of the HIRT (the HISS Impulse Response Toolbox). This time round, it is the basic use of capturing an impulse response with some of the tools for MaxMSP. Feel free to watch it here: https://vimeo.com/55440630 The paper and all the externals are still available here: http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/14897/ Let us know what you think! p ps for those who prefer youtube, it will soon be up there too! ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA
I must have missed the beginning of this. What does WFS stand for? W... Field System? David At 06:10 12-12-12, Augustine Leudar wrote: Ok lets have a proximity off ! One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ speakers) - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was better but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back from Ircam of voices right in front of them . So my question is to those that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity illusions ? Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/d28778e8/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA
sorry - wfs - wavefield synthesis - HOA - higher order ambisonics On 12 December 2012 14:43, David Pickett d...@fugato.com wrote: I must have missed the beginning of this. What does WFS stand for? W... Field System? David At 06:10 12-12-12, Augustine Leudar wrote: Ok lets have a proximity off ! One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ speakers) - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was better but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back from Ircam of voices right in front of them . So my question is to those that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity illusions ? Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/private/sursound/** attachments/201212https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/201212 12/**d28778e8/attachment.html _**__ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- 07580951119 augustine.leudar.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/bff73e9a/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA
On 12/12/2012 01:10 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote: Ok lets have a proximity off ! One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ speakers) - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was better but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back from Ircam of voices right in front of them . So my question is to those that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity illusions ? Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? if the wfs you have available allows it, bend it into a circle and use the sound scape renderer to get an a/b comparison of HOA vs. WFS. matthias and sascha have shown it to me on their 56ch circular test array at t-labs. i don't remember now if i did get to hear focused sources in HOA, but i believe SSR can do it. if you actually get the chance to try that on your own system, be sure to report your findings to the ssr authors - such feedback is rare, and i'm sure they'll appreciate it. -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse response
Ha I know Rodrigo well ! Will give it a watch On 12 December 2012 14:50, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay tremb...@gmail.comwrote: Dear all Thanks to Rodrigo Constanzo we have the first video tutorial of how to use and abuse the fruit of the HIRT (the HISS Impulse Response Toolbox). This time round, it is the basic use of capturing an impulse response with some of the tools for MaxMSP. Feel free to watch it here: https://vimeo.com/55440630 The paper and all the externals are still available here: http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/14897/ Let us know what you think! p ps for those who prefer youtube, it will soon be up there too! ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- 07580951119 augustine.leudar.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/3c1ba884/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
[Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA
if Mike's claim is true (or even just marginally helpful), then even if it's only about amplitude panning, we might exploit it for the design of Ambi rigs in the rE realm. I recall people have argued in favor of twisted rings before - maybe this is a case in point? Best, J?rn -- J?rn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister f?r Veranstaltungstechnik (B?hne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net -- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:10:28 + From: Augustine Leudar augustineleu...@gmail.com Subject: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA To: sursound@music.vt.edu Message-ID: cabx2jurqtss-l+ug7fgq8gxpd13bplkpohdbkwezuoxusvw...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Ok lets have a proximity off ! One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ speakers) - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was better but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back from Ircam of voices right in front of them . So my question is to those that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity illusions ? Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/d28778e8/attachment.html -- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:50:27 + From: Pierre Alexandre Tremblay tremb...@gmail.com Subject: [Sursound] a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse response To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Message-ID: 183bf7d6-ae7a-4cbb-b839-e6a952800...@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear all Thanks to Rodrigo Constanzo we have the first video tutorial of how to use and abuse the fruit of the HIRT (the HISS Impulse Response Toolbox). This time round, it is the basic use of capturing an impulse response with some of the tools for MaxMSP. Feel free to watch it here: https://vimeo.com/55440630 The paper and all the externals are still available here: http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/14897/ Let us know what you think! p ps for those who prefer youtube, it will soon be up there too! -- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:43:44 -0600 From: David Pickett d...@fugato.com Subject: Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Message-ID: 6.2.5.6.2.20121212084249.0690b...@fugato.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed I must have missed the beginning of this. What does WFS stand for? W... Field System? David At 06:10 12-12-12, Augustine Leudar wrote: Ok lets have a proximity off ! One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ speakers) - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was better but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back from Ircam of voices right in front of them . So my question is to those that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity illusions ? Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/d28778e8/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:15:40 + From: Augustine Leudar augustineleu...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound
Re: [Sursound] a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse response
thanks for the props I do a lot of creative convo in my music... for instance, automatic auto-crop of guitar chord recordings by analog synth glitches... you can hear some on my piece 'ces énigmes lumineuses' and we might have time to cover the how-tos in another tutorial... pa Le 2012-12-12 à 16:42, Anthony Palomba a écrit : This is a great video! I am looking forward to seeing more, especially room correction. I would also love to see some videos on using these tools to create new timbres. For example live instruments convolved with interesting sounds. Thanks, Anthony On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay tremb...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all Thanks to Rodrigo Constanzo we have the first video tutorial of how to use and abuse the fruit of the HIRT (the HISS Impulse Response Toolbox). This time round, it is the basic use of capturing an impulse response with some of the tools for MaxMSP. Feel free to watch it here: https://vimeo.com/55440630 The paper and all the externals are still available here: http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/14897/ Let us know what you think! p ps for those who prefer youtube, it will soon be up there too! ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/dd630f95/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA
knowledge of intent and speaker position. The only way to find out is a blind listening test, but maybe the patrons of this list have tried it and are able to comment? Because if Mike's claim is true (or even just marginally helpful), then even if it's only about amplitude panning, we might exploit it for the design of Ambi rigs in the rE realm. I recall people have argued in favor of twisted rings before - maybe this is a case in point? Best, J?rn -- J?rn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister f?r Veranstaltungstechnik (B?hne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net -- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:10:28 + From: Augustine Leudar augustineleu...@gmail.com Subject: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA To: sursound@music.vt.edu Message-ID: cabx2jurqtss-l+ug7fgq8gxpd13bplkpohdbkwezuoxusvw...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Ok lets have a proximity off ! One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ speakers) - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was better but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back from Ircam of voices right in front of them . So my question is to those that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity illusions ? Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/d28778e8/attachment.html -- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:50:27 + From: Pierre Alexandre Tremblay tremb...@gmail.com Subject: [Sursound] a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse response To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Message-ID: 183bf7d6-ae7a-4cbb-b839-e6a952800...@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear all Thanks to Rodrigo Constanzo we have the first video tutorial of how to use and abuse the fruit of the HIRT (the HISS Impulse Response Toolbox). This time round, it is the basic use of capturing an impulse response with some of the tools for MaxMSP. Feel free to watch it here: https://vimeo.com/55440630 The paper and all the externals are still available here: http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/14897/ Let us know what you think! p ps for those who prefer youtube, it will soon be up there too! -- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:43:44 -0600 From: David Pickett d...@fugato.com Subject: Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Message-ID: 6.2.5.6.2.20121212084249.0690b...@fugato.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed I must have missed the beginning of this. What does WFS stand for? W... Field System? David At 06:10 12-12-12, Augustine Leudar wrote: Ok lets have a proximity off ! One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ speakers) - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was better but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back from Ircam of voices right in front of them . So my question is to those that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity illusions ? Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/201212 12/d28778e8/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https
Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA
On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 07:20:31PM +0100, Natasha Barrett wrote: 1. Proximity illusions on WFS at IRCAM: all four sides WFS arrays (BTW flat along the walls), sounds appear beside 'you', but then 'you' have to be in the right place. Kind of like one sweet spot for each sound point (and of course you have to be on the correct side of the traveling wavefront). Therefore there are mixing and composition tactics to get the best out of WFS proximity illusion. It sounds super, but as all spatialisation is in real-time you loose the advantage of HOA's encoding-decoding separation. The 'having to be in the right place' or at least the right side, is probably unavoidable, whatever the system used. Focussing, no matter how it's done, does not create a source. 2. Proximity illusions on HOA at IRCAM: I worked with 7th order 3D over 75 loudspeakers and 12th order 2D over 25 loudspeakers. HOA alone will not, and is not supposed to, make *focused* sounds inside the array. HOWEVER, with the orders I worked with there are tricks to with sound motion, mixing, contrast, sound sources etc that gives the illusion of 'something' inside the array. But remember that this is to do with artistic use of the sound rather than embedded in the technology itself. And of course these high orders gave an enormous sweet spot / stable listening area! Completely different sound to WFS and it was great to use HOA and WFS at the same time! In fact quite depressing to return to my own lower order composition studio. I also made practical tests with implementations of published NFC-HOA theory (near-field compensated HOA). There is definitely something interesting perceptually - a 'kind of' focused source inside the array effect, not as spooky clear as WFS, but heard for the complete audience. With NFC the bass boost is still an issue even with compensation filters that end up removing the NFC effect (and so the technology still has some way to go). Indeed. HOA can actually produce focussed sources just as WFS can, but in practice it is not an easy thing to do. The theory you'll find in Moreau's PhD thesis, dated 2006. A practical implementation is quite another issue. Let's trace the complete processing chain: 1. Mono source signal A. AMB panner with near field encoding of distance (optionally compensated for the size of the reproduction array). 2. HOA 'B-format' signal B. AMB decoder 3. Speaker signals C. Speakers 4. Reconstructed sound field. (where 1,2,3,4 are 'signals' and A,B,C are 'processes' that convert signals into some other form) The problem is that for focussed sources (2) and (3) will have very high gain resp. levels at low and mid frequencies, essentially the response rises by 6 dB per octave down per order. So for example a 10th order AMB signal for a focussed source will have components that rise in gain by 60 dB per octave as frequency goes down. Compensating for the reproduction array size in (A) instead of doing this in (B) mitigates the problem, but does not remove it. In practice that means that for focussed sources the speaker signals will be at extremely high levels, half of them in antiphase w.r.t to the rest, and most of the acoustic signals produced that way will cancel out in the reconstructed field. That cancelling out means that most of the energy produced by the speakers is actually useless. To avoid this problem the frequency range of the higher order AMB signals (2) must be limited at the low end. And that must be done in a way that preserves their relative phase relationships. While the theoretical near field encoding filters are quite simple, adding the required high-pass component complicates them by some orders of magnitude, in particular if such filters have to be variable in real time as you would expect from a 'panner with distance'. As shown by Moreau, such filters would actually limit the otherwise extreme gains/levels to less than +6 dB, quite harmless in practice, while fully preserving the focussing effect. Most of it is actually the result of the _phase_ response of the filters, and not of the gain. I'm so far not aware of any existing implementation that actually achieves this, except 'research' code for a fixed encoded distance and reproduction array size. Some people (including me) are working on this, so maybe some day we'll have something that can be used for actual production work. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA
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