Silent reader, but chip in here with my practical experience of WFS, HOA and NFC-HOA (as I guess you know the theory):
1. Proximity illusions on WFS at IRCAM: all four sides WFS arrays (BTW flat along the walls), sounds appear beside 'you', but then 'you' have to be in the right place. Kind of like one sweet spot for each sound point (and of course you have to be on the correct side of the traveling wavefront). Therefore there are mixing and composition tactics to get the best out of WFS proximity illusion. It sounds super, but as all spatialisation is in real-time you loose the advantage of HOA's encoding-decoding separation. 2. Proximity illusions on HOA at IRCAM: I worked with 7th order 3D over 75 loudspeakers and 12th order 2D over 25 loudspeakers. HOA alone will not, and is not supposed to, make *focused* sounds inside the array. HOWEVER, with the orders I worked with there are tricks to with sound motion, mixing, contrast, sound sources etc that gives the illusion of 'something' inside the array. But remember that this is to do with artistic use of the sound rather than embedded in the technology itself. And of course these high orders gave an enormous sweet spot / stable listening area! Completely different sound to WFS and it was great to use HOA and WFS at the same time! In fact quite depressing to return to my own lower order composition studio. I also made practical tests with implementations of published NFC-HOA theory (near-field compensated HOA). There is definitely something interesting perceptually - a 'kind of' focused source inside the array effect, not as spooky clear as WFS, but heard for the complete audience. With NFC the bass boost is still an issue even with compensation filters that end up removing the NFC effect (and so the technology still has some way to go). Happy spatialising! Natasha On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:00 PM, sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu wrote: > Send Sursound mailing list submissions to > sursound@music.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > sursound-ow...@music.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Sursound digest..." > > > When replying, please remember to edit your Subject line to that of the > original message you are replying to, so it is more specific than "Re: > Contents of Sirsound-list digest..." so that it matches the post you are > replying to. > > Also, please EDIT the quoted post so that it is not the entire digest, but > just the post you are replying to. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Height localisation in a speaker triangle (J?rn Nettingsmeier) > 2. Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA (Augustine Leudar) > 3. a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse response > (Pierre Alexandre Tremblay) > 4. Re: Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA (David Pickett) > 5. Re: Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA (Augustine Leudar) > 6. Re: Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA (J?rn Nettingsmeier) > 7. Re: a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse > response (Augustine Leudar) > 8. Re: Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA (Augustine Leudar) > 9. Re: a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse > response (Anthony Palomba) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:26:47 +0100 > From: J?rn Nettingsmeier <netti...@stackingdwarves.net> > Subject: [Sursound] Height localisation in a speaker triangle > To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu> > Message-ID: <50c79707.4050...@stackingdwarves.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Hi *! > > > At the Tonmeistertagung in Cologne last month, I made the acquaintance > of Mike Williams, recording engineer and long-time AES contributor. He > confronted me with an interesting claim while we were discussing the > Auro-3D layout: according to Mike, there is precise height localisation > between a front L/R pair and a front height center, much better than the > "either up or down" kind of thing we've come to expect from Auro rigs > where height speakers are right above the floor ones. Which is why he is > proposing height speakers at 0?, 90?, 180? and 270?. > > I haven't been able to look into this, and my gut feeling is that what > Mike describes as precise height localisation during source movements is > in fact a projection of the diagonal movement onto the horizontal plane > (where our hearing apparatus is most discriminating), and the brain > subconciously fills in the height based on a-priori knowledge of intent > and speaker position. The only way to find out is a blind listening > test, but maybe the patrons of this list have tried it and are able to > comment? > > Because if Mike's claim is true (or even just marginally helpful), then > even if it's only about amplitude panning, we might exploit it for the > design of Ambi rigs in the rE realm. I recall people have argued in > favor of twisted rings before - maybe this is a case in point? > > > Best, > > > J?rn > > > -- > J?rn Nettingsmeier > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 > > Meister f?r Veranstaltungstechnik (B?hne/Studio) > Tonmeister VDT > > http://stackingdwarves.net > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:10:28 +0000 > From: Augustine Leudar <augustineleu...@gmail.com> > Subject: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > Message-ID: > <cabx2jurqtss-l+ug7fgq8gxpd13bplkpohdbkwezuoxusvw...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Ok lets have a proximity off ! > One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating > proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose > WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could > create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I > haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ speakers) > - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if > I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I > have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was better > but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back > from Ircam of "voices right in front of them" . So my question is to those > that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - > which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity illusions > ? > Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/d28778e8/attachment.html> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:50:27 +0000 > From: Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremb...@gmail.com> > Subject: [Sursound] a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse > response > To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu> > Message-ID: <183bf7d6-ae7a-4cbb-b839-e6a952800...@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Dear all > > Thanks to Rodrigo Constanzo we have the first video tutorial of how to use > and abuse the fruit of the HIRT (the HISS Impulse Response Toolbox). This > time round, it is the basic use of capturing an impulse response with some of > the tools for MaxMSP. > > Feel free to watch it here: > > https://vimeo.com/55440630 > > The paper and all the externals are still available here: > > http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/14897/ > > Let us know what you think! > > p > > ps for those who prefer youtube, it will soon be up there too! > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:43:44 -0600 > From: David Pickett <d...@fugato.com> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA > To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu> > Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20121212084249.0690b...@fugato.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > I must have missed the beginning of this. > > What does WFS stand for? "W... Field System"? > > David > > At 06:10 12-12-12, Augustine Leudar wrote: >> Ok lets have a proximity off ! >> One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating >> proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose >> WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could >> create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I >> haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ speakers) >> - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if >> I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I >> have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was better >> but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back >> from Ircam of "voices right in front of them" . So my question is to those >> that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - >> which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity illusions >> ? >> Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/201212>12/d28778e8/attachment.html> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sursound mailing list >> Sursound@music.vt.edu >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:15:40 +0000 > From: Augustine Leudar <augustineleu...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA > To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu> > Message-ID: > <cabx2jurpkjbqlxdpwsos3hxqwpuabw6w7xeyddv1kf-bc0m...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > sorry - wfs - wavefield synthesis - HOA - higher order ambisonics > > On 12 December 2012 14:43, David Pickett <d...@fugato.com> wrote: > >> I must have missed the beginning of this. >> >> What does WFS stand for? "W... Field System"? >> >> David >> >> >> At 06:10 12-12-12, Augustine Leudar wrote: >>> Ok lets have a proximity off ! >>> One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating >>> proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose >>> WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could >>> create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I >>> haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ >> speakers) >>> - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if >>> I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I >>> have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was >> better >>> but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back >>> from Ircam of "voices right in front of them" . So my question is to >> those >>> that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - >>> which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity >> illusions >>> ? >>> Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/private/sursound/** >> attachments/201212<https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/201212> >>> 12/**d28778e8/attachment.html> >>> _____________________________**__________________ >>> Sursound mailing list >>> Sursound@music.vt.edu >>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound<https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Sursound mailing list >> Sursound@music.vt.edu >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound<https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound> >> > > > > -- > 07580951119 > > augustine.leudar.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/bff73e9a/attachment.html> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:13:51 +0100 > From: J?rn Nettingsmeier <netti...@stackingdwarves.net> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA > To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu> > Message-ID: <50c89f2f.3030...@stackingdwarves.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 12/12/2012 01:10 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote: >> Ok lets have a proximity off ! >> One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating >> proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose >> WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could >> create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I >> haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ speakers) >> - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if >> I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I >> have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was better >> but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back >> from Ircam of "voices right in front of them" . So my question is to those >> that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - >> which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity illusions >> ? >> Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? > > if the wfs you have available allows it, bend it into a circle and use > the sound scape renderer to get an a/b comparison of HOA vs. WFS. > matthias and sascha have shown it to me on their 56ch circular test > array at t-labs. i don't remember now if i did get to hear focused > sources in HOA, but i believe SSR can do it. > > if you actually get the chance to try that on your own system, be sure > to report your findings to the ssr authors - such feedback is rare, and > i'm sure they'll appreciate it. > > > > > -- > J?rn Nettingsmeier > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 > > Meister f?r Veranstaltungstechnik (B?hne/Studio) > Tonmeister VDT > > http://stackingdwarves.net > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:16:49 +0000 > From: Augustine Leudar <augustineleu...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] a quick tutorial video on how to create an > impulse response > To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu> > Message-ID: > <CABx2juqPmUNAWDZVfePBtdhwEb-Y_+UST36=rgynurt92xt...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Ha I know Rodrigo well ! Will give it a watch > > On 12 December 2012 14:50, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay > <tremb...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> Dear all >> >> Thanks to Rodrigo Constanzo we have the first video tutorial of how to use >> and abuse the fruit of the HIRT (the HISS Impulse Response Toolbox). This >> time round, it is the basic use of capturing an impulse response with some >> of the tools for MaxMSP. >> >> Feel free to watch it here: >> >> https://vimeo.com/55440630 >> >> The paper and all the externals are still available here: >> >> http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/14897/ >> >> Let us know what you think! >> >> p >> >> ps for those who prefer youtube, it will soon be up there too! >> _______________________________________________ >> Sursound mailing list >> Sursound@music.vt.edu >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound >> > > > > -- > 07580951119 > > augustine.leudar.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/3c1ba884/attachment.html> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:20:34 +0000 > From: Augustine Leudar <augustineleu...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA > To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu> > Message-ID: > <CABx2juor6dropnBxoe-NUrKUmOigacYjkT3hWi4bm=kyge1...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Yes I'll try that . SSR can do focused sources - I actually use that > program on my system already - I only have a 32 channel system but Ill give > it a go. I will also test it out with own Peter's ambisonic plugin - maybe > next month sometime - Im almost excited ! > > On 12 December 2012 15:13, J?rn Nettingsmeier > <netti...@stackingdwarves.net>wrote: > >> On 12/12/2012 01:10 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote: >> >>> Ok lets have a proximity off ! >>> One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating >>> proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose >>> WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could >>> create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I >>> haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ >>> speakers) >>> - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if >>> I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I >>> have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was >>> better >>> but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back >>> from Ircam of "voices right in front of them" . So my question is to >>> those >>> that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - >>> which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity >>> illusions >>> ? >>> Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? >>> >> >> if the wfs you have available allows it, bend it into a circle and use the >> sound scape renderer to get an a/b comparison of HOA vs. WFS. matthias and >> sascha have shown it to me on their 56ch circular test array at t-labs. i >> don't remember now if i did get to hear focused sources in HOA, but i >> believe SSR can do it. >> >> if you actually get the chance to try that on your own system, be sure to >> report your findings to the ssr authors - such feedback is rare, and i'm >> sure they'll appreciate it. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> J?rn Nettingsmeier >> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 >> >> Meister f?r Veranstaltungstechnik (B?hne/Studio) >> Tonmeister VDT >> >> http://stackingdwarves.net >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Sursound mailing list >> Sursound@music.vt.edu >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound<https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound> >> > > > > -- > 07580951119 > > augustine.leudar.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/a64e6209/attachment.html> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:42:53 -0600 > From: Anthony Palomba <apalo...@austin.rr.com> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] a quick tutorial video on how to create an > impulse response > To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu> > Message-ID: > <CAFZXy=dlu7vs5piwxyyvspk5ha4uosx-koecdoy0-0hfsah...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > This is a great video! I am looking forward to seeing more, > especially room correction. > > I would also love to see some videos on using these > tools to create new timbres. For example live instruments > convolved with interesting sounds. > > > Thanks, > Anthony > > > > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay < > tremb...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear all >> >> Thanks to Rodrigo Constanzo we have the first video tutorial of how to use >> and abuse the fruit of the HIRT (the HISS Impulse Response Toolbox). This >> time round, it is the basic use of capturing an impulse response with some >> of the tools for MaxMSP. >> >> Feel free to watch it here: >> >> https://vimeo.com/55440630 >> >> The paper and all the externals are still available here: >> >> http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/14897/ >> >> Let us know what you think! >> >> p >> >> ps for those who prefer youtube, it will soon be up there too! >> _______________________________________________ >> Sursound mailing list >> Sursound@music.vt.edu >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/dd630f95/attachment.html> > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > > End of Sursound Digest, Vol 53, Issue 7 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
