Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Eric Benjamin]

Richard,
You say "the two software programs you've been provided links for don't decode 
it" Just out of curiosity, in what way do the two software decoders fail to 
properly decode SQ? My interest is purely academic, as I don't have any SQ 
source material.
Eric Benjamin 


 On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 11:02 AM, David Pickett  
wrote:
   

 I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, 
but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results 
playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.

My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ 
decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he 
presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to 
recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one 
can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

Thanks in advant for any pointers.

David

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Richard]

Alas it's far more complex than that, a quick look at the equation will tell 
you that:

Lt = Lf + (- j0.707Lb + 0.707Rb) 

Rt = Rf + (- 0.707Lb + j0.707 Rb )







  Many thanks,  Eero!  (I dont know why my search didnt turn these up...)

  I see that the transformation used in the first one is simple to 
  describe. 90 degree rotation is not simple, however!

  David

  At 20:37 20-10-15, Eero Aro wrote:
  >There's another:
  >
  >http://www-user.rhrk.uni-kl.de/~junglas/SQdecode/SQdecode.html
  >
  >Eero
  >
  >20.10.2015, 20:35, David Pickett kirjoitti:
  >>I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, but
  >>I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results playing them
  >>out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.
  >>
  >>My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
  >>decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
  >>presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
  >>recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
  >>can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.
  >>
  >>Thanks in advant for any pointers.
  >>
  >>David
  >>
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[David Pickett]

Many thanks,  Eero!  (I dont know why my search didnt turn these up...)

I see that the transformation used in the first one is simple to 
describe. 90 degree rotation is not simple, however!


David

At 20:37 20-10-15, Eero Aro wrote:

There's another:

http://www-user.rhrk.uni-kl.de/~junglas/SQdecode/SQdecode.html

Eero

20.10.2015, 20:35, David Pickett kirjoitti:

I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, but
I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results playing them
out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.

My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

Thanks in advant for any pointers.

David

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Eero Aro]

Richard wrote:


the two software programs you've been provided links for don't
decode it, they are so wrong it's hard to know where to start.


snip


I don't normally like advertising it like this


Well, sometimes it is good idea to to advertise. I have never heard of
your blog and would have never known. I only know about those two
programs and the cumbersome procedures people developed to decode
SQ with Audition.

I have a small pile of quad vinyls as well.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Richard]

Hi

As some here know i've spent quite a bit of the last five years devoted to the 
accurate decoding of the 70's matrix systems, including SQ.

Decoding SQ is far more complicated than people think and i'm sorry to say the 
two software programs you've been provided links for don't decode it, they are 
so wrong it's hard to know where to start.

I run a blog devoted to the decoding of (almost) all of the matrix systems and 
making avilable high quality decodes of these original surround recordings. I 
don't normally like advertising it like this but if you'd care to pop along to 
it then contact me on the blog's email address if you have any questions.

https://dreamingspiresquadarchive.wordpress.com/



  I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, 
  but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results 
  playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.

  My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ 
  decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he 
  presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to 
  recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one 
  can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

  Thanks in advant for any pointers.

  David

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Eero Aro]

There's another:

http://www-user.rhrk.uni-kl.de/~junglas/SQdecode/SQdecode.html

Eero

20.10.2015, 20:35, David Pickett kirjoitti:

I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, but
I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results playing them
out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.

My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

Thanks in advant for any pointers.

David

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Eero Aro]

There's one:

http://www.hotto.de/software/quadrophonicmatrixdecoder.html

Eero

20.10.2015, 20:35, David Pickett kirjoitti:

I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, but
I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results playing them
out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.

My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

Thanks in advant for any pointers.

David

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[Sursound] SQ QUAD

[David Pickett]

I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, 
but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results 
playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.


My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ 
decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he 
presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to 
recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one 
can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.


Thanks in advant for any pointers.

David

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

[Michael Chapman]

Fons Adriaensen wrote (Thu, October 15, 2015 6:47 pm) :
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 03:59:46PM +0200, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>
>> We've seen all those outlandish claims of magical waveguides that
>> are just fractions of the wavelength in diameter and yet shape the
>> sound so wonderfully that a 20Hz beam will travel all the way to the
>> moon (using the revolutionary VacuProof™ technology that will
>> finally bring cinema-friendly space battles). The problem is, this
>> waveshaping is not physically possible.
>
> Yes, it's a simple as that - not physically possible.
>
> If you think in ambisonic (spherical harmonic) terms it's
> easy to see why. Orders zero and one correspond to physical
> quantities, pressure and velocity, so these can be generated
> directly at any point. Higher order SH can't.
>
> Which means that you can have cardioid subs, or even
> supercardioid ones, but anything expected to create more
> directional beams will need to be of a size comparable
> to wavelenght.
>
> Can be (and is) done for open-air PA systems using very big
> arrays. But not in any normal room, there simply isn't the
> space to do it.
>

There's something I've missed here ... for several years (as Feynman
commented  there's a point
when it's too late to ask idiot questions, but here goes;-)> :

If X,Y,Z  correspond to velocity
then does W correspond to some displacement of (a notional membrane say
in) the aether in Jorn's vacuum of space;-)>

If so ... by extension (always dangerous) ... then don't the next five
(second order) components relate to acceleration ?


To rephrase the question with no idiot presumptions:
Why, in ambisonics, do we repeatedly refer to velcocity but never
acceleration?
(If one exists, then so must the other.)


I feel an idiot even asking, so harsh replies accepted ;-)>

Michael







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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

[Michael Chapman]

> Charles Veasey wrote:
>> Martin -
>>
>> To clarify the use of the subs within a tetrahedral array, it would
>> require
>> the subs to be elevated off the floor?
>
> At least one, as described by Michael.
>

I should apologise for the brevity of my respone.
The problem (for me at least) is that solid / three-dimensional geometry
is not 'everyday' (we live in a 3-D world, but when I leave my triangles
and rectangles behind it all gets sticky ...) and (worse) when one does
finally see the 'solution' it is so bl...ing obvious one forgets to
explain it.

If anyone is still pondering:

Make a paper/card tetrahedron (very easy).
Throw it in the air.
It lands (hopefully) with one face and three points on the floor.

If the 'points' are your speakers then there you go.
The fourth speaker not only needs suspending, it is dangling just over the
sweet spot ... ;-(>

(Of course some modellers place speakers at the center of each surface.
Not a good idea for the above.
(But for non-tetrahedrons it can give a difference: a cube has six
surfaces but eight 'points' ...))

Think I've stated the obvious, but it may aid someone, somewhere ...

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

[Martin Leese]

Charles Veasey wrote:
> Martin -
>
> To clarify the use of the subs within a tetrahedral array, it would require
> the subs to be elevated off the floor?

At least one, as described by Michael.

> Given the weight of most subs, this
> seems a bit difficult in practice. Thoughts?

Then try three subs (arranged in a triangle)
to decode to 360 deg horizontal-only.  For
localisation, three is not as good as four but is
better than two.

Note this all assumes that the standing waves
excited in the room will not screw-up any hope
of low-frequency localisation.  Keeping the
subs away from the room corners will help with
this.  (Your mileage may vary.)

Regards,
Martin
-- 
Martin J Leese
E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] Modified SoundField Mk IV

[Dave Malham]

Yes! A good night's sleep with a eureka moment in the middle revealed the
truth to me! Actually, I was due to me thinking, rather foolishly, that the
url was constructed in a relatively sane manner. An old codger like me
would think that https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11410162-post641.html
pointed to post #641 and
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11410162-post650.html HOWEVER in fact,
post650 tells the gearslutz server what to call the page it serves out, NOT
what the page actually is, which is determined by the
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11410162 bit of it.  I would describe that
as too clever by half. Anyway, mystery solved, back to audio...

 Dave

On 20 October 2015 at 01:00, Sampo Syreeni  wrote:

> On 2015-10-20, Richard Lee wrote:
>
> #641 & #650 refer to posts on the Gearslutz page [...]
>>
>
> Is there then any method to this madness?
> --
> Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
> +358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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>



-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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