Re: [Sursound] Enquiry on upmixing from 1st order ambisonics to 3rd order ambisonics.
Hi All , Thanks for all the help Archontis, Axel, Steve and David. This topic just got more exciting for me. Yes I am aware of Harpex, Blue ripple and Compass that's on the market, but I guess I need to study and be more aware of what I am reading for my secondary research. Many Thanks, Wilson On Fri, 22 Feb 2019, 12:21 Steven Boardman, wrote: > Not directly. > But one can create a lot of beams (without the rear lobe), to up mix with… > One needs a few instances depending on the order you want to up mix to, > but I have had good results from it. > It is uses some form of adaptive parametric/directional analysis. > > Best > > Steve > > > On 22 Feb 2019, at 12:12, Politis Archontis > wrote: > > > > Hi Steven, > > > > As far as I remember the Rode plugin does not offer this functionality > (upmixing FOA to HOA). > > > > Regards, > > Archontis Politis > > > > > > On 22 Feb 2019, at 14:04, Steven Boardman <mailto:boardroomout...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > > And lets not forget ‘Soundfield’ by Rode. > > This also uses some form of parametric direction detection. Either on > B-format directly, but also on the Rode’s A-format. > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > Oh my mistake then, I thought the HARPEX vst was doing direct rendering > only, and its HOA upmixing functionality was done only by the Blue Ripple > Sound upmixer (which is using HARPEX). > > Three it is then :-). > > > > Best, > > Archontis > > > > On 22 Feb 2019, at 11:05, Axel Drioli axeldri...@gmail.com> <mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com> axeldri...@gmail.com <mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > > > To add on top of the previous email, there are three then ( I didn t know > > about COMPASS), because Harpex can be a vst itself, which sounds > > magnificently good. > > > > Regards > > Axel > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/062f6801/attachment.html > > > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu<mailto:Sursound@music.vt.edu> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/86fa3126/attachment.html > > > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/450157ec/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
[Sursound] Sounds in Space 2019
I'm pleased to announce that this year's Sounds in Space Research Symposium will be on 25th/26th June at the University of Derby, UK. Call for works now open (videos/PDFs of the last two year's talks available to see, too). Do put in a title and abstract if you fancy showing your work to an international audience :-) https://www.brucewiggins.co.uk/?page_id=1564 It's always a great event, and features demos played over our 30 speaker + 8 sub 3D Ambisonic array installed in the presentation auditorium. cheers Bruce Wiggins University of Derby UK -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/58a3a547/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
[Sursound] FOA resolution
Hi all, At some point I recall reading somewhere that with a FOA recording transformed into binaural sound, a listener is only able to work out the direction of a point source sound to about 15 degrees accuracy in the horizontal plane, compared to being able to identify it to around 2 or 3 degrees in real life (or was it compared to a static binaural recording?) Does anyone have a source for this statistic, or is it more an anecdotal reference about the fuzziness of FOA? Many thanks, Gareth Gareth Fry - Sound Designer UK (+44) - 07973 352669 gareth...@hotmail.com www.garethfry.com Gareth Fry Ltd | Registered in UK No. 09430786 | VAT No. GB 994736753 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Enquiry on upmixing from 1st order ambisonics to 3rd order ambisonics.
Interesting question David. At 02:37 22-02-19, Wilson Lim wrote: >ot sure if I have missed a discussion about upmixing with ambisonics on >Sursound. > >Just wondering if anyone is willing to share some information on how to >implement upmixing algorithms from 1st Order Ambisonics A to 3rd >Order Ambisonics B-format. I am curious to know what advantage there is to playing back 1st order upmixed to 3rd order. Doesnt it still sound like 1st order, since there no information is actually added? Or are the images expectated to be more stable on account of more loudspeakers being involved, on the analogy of stereo played back through three loudpeakers? David ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/490b829d/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Enquiry on upmixing from 1st order ambisonics to 3rd order ambisonics.
Hi David, These upmixing methods extract a lot of information from the FOA recording that is then re-used to essentially “synthesize" the HOA signals, with a spatial resolution that would not be possible with the FOA recordings. They are “active” in that sense, and signal-dependent, compared to the “passive" classical ambisonic decoding. Their success depends of course on how effective is their underlying model and how robustly they are implemented. In that sense there isn’t necessarily a large benefit in parametric upmixing from FOA to 3rd-order, compared to parametric decoding for playback, since these methods can also upmix directly from FOA to, say, 40 speakers or headphones, with their maximum sharpness. However, the HOA upmixing could be useful for people that are working with a HOA processing pipeline, and they want to integrate FOA or lower-order material seamlessly. Regards, Archontis Politis > On 22 Feb 2019, at 19:45, David Pickett wrote: > > At 02:37 22-02-19, Wilson Lim wrote: > >> ot sure if I have missed a discussion about upmixing with ambisonics on >> Sursound. >> >> Just wondering if anyone is willing to share some information on how to >> implement upmixing algorithms from 1st Order Ambisonics A to 3rd >> Order Ambisonics B-format. > > I am curious to know what advantage there is to playing back 1st order > upmixed to 3rd order. Doesnt it still sound like 1st order, since there no > information is actually added? Or are the images expectated to be more stable > on account of more loudspeakers being involved, on the analogy of stereo > played back through three loudpeakers? > > David > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit > account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Enquiry on upmixing from 1st order ambisonics to 3rd order ambisonics.
At 02:37 22-02-19, Wilson Lim wrote: ot sure if I have missed a discussion about upmixing with ambisonics on Sursound. Just wondering if anyone is willing to share some information on how to implement upmixing algorithms from 1st Order Ambisonics A to 3rd Order Ambisonics B-format. I am curious to know what advantage there is to playing back 1st order upmixed to 3rd order. Doesnt it still sound like 1st order, since there no information is actually added? Or are the images expectated to be more stable on account of more loudspeakers being involved, on the analogy of stereo played back through three loudpeakers? David ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Enquiry on upmixing from 1st order ambisonics to 3rd order ambisonics.
Not directly. But one can create a lot of beams (without the rear lobe), to up mix with… One needs a few instances depending on the order you want to up mix to, but I have had good results from it. It is uses some form of adaptive parametric/directional analysis. Best Steve > On 22 Feb 2019, at 12:12, Politis Archontis > wrote: > > Hi Steven, > > As far as I remember the Rode plugin does not offer this functionality > (upmixing FOA to HOA). > > Regards, > Archontis Politis > > > On 22 Feb 2019, at 14:04, Steven Boardman > mailto:boardroomout...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > And lets not forget ‘Soundfield’ by Rode. > This also uses some form of parametric direction detection. Either on > B-format directly, but also on the Rode’s A-format. > > > Steve > > > Oh my mistake then, I thought the HARPEX vst was doing direct rendering only, > and its HOA upmixing functionality was done only by the Blue Ripple Sound > upmixer (which is using HARPEX). > Three it is then :-). > > Best, > Archontis > > On 22 Feb 2019, at 11:05, Axel Drioli > mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com> > <mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com><mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com > <mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > To add on top of the previous email, there are three then ( I didn t know > about COMPASS), because Harpex can be a vst itself, which sounds > magnificently good. > > Regards > Axel > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/062f6801/attachment.html> > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu<mailto:Sursound@music.vt.edu> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit > account or options, view archives and so on. > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/86fa3126/attachment.html> > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit > account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Enquiry on upmixing from 1st order ambisonics to 3rd order ambisonics.
Hi Steven, As far as I remember the Rode plugin does not offer this functionality (upmixing FOA to HOA). Regards, Archontis Politis On 22 Feb 2019, at 14:04, Steven Boardman mailto:boardroomout...@gmail.com>> wrote: And lets not forget ‘Soundfield’ by Rode. This also uses some form of parametric direction detection. Either on B-format directly, but also on the Rode’s A-format. Steve Oh my mistake then, I thought the HARPEX vst was doing direct rendering only, and its HOA upmixing functionality was done only by the Blue Ripple Sound upmixer (which is using HARPEX). Three it is then :-). Best, Archontis On 22 Feb 2019, at 11:05, Axel Drioli mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com> <mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com><mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com <mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com>>> wrote: To add on top of the previous email, there are three then ( I didn t know about COMPASS), because Harpex can be a vst itself, which sounds magnificently good. Regards Axel -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/062f6801/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu<mailto:Sursound@music.vt.edu> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/86fa3126/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Enquiry on upmixing from 1st order ambisonics to 3rd order ambisonics.
And lets not forget ‘Soundfield’ by Rode. This also uses some form of parametric direction detection. Either on B-format directly, but also on the Rode’s A-format. Steve Oh my mistake then, I thought the HARPEX vst was doing direct rendering only, and its HOA upmixing functionality was done only by the Blue Ripple Sound upmixer (which is using HARPEX). Three it is then :-). Best, Archontis On 22 Feb 2019, at 11:05, Axel Drioli mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com><mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com <mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com>>> wrote: To add on top of the previous email, there are three then ( I didn t know about COMPASS), because Harpex can be a vst itself, which sounds magnificently good. Regards Axel -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/062f6801/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Enquiry on upmixing from 1st order ambisonics to 3rd order ambisonics.
Oh my mistake then, I thought the HARPEX vst was doing direct rendering only, and its HOA upmixing functionality was done only by the Blue Ripple Sound upmixer (which is using HARPEX). Three it is then :-). Best, Archontis On 22 Feb 2019, at 11:05, Axel Drioli mailto:axeldri...@gmail.com>> wrote: To add on top of the previous email, there are three then ( I didn t know about COMPASS), because Harpex can be a vst itself, which sounds magnificently good. Regards Axel On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 at 07:52, Politis Archontis mailto:archontis.poli...@aalto.fi>> wrote: Hi Wilson, First of all you have to understand the upmixing algorithms themselves before starting implementing them. Some methods that can do that are Directional Audio Coding (DirAC), which you can read all about in the “Parametric Time-frequency Domain Spatial Audio” book of last year, and numerous articles from AES journal and conferences. Then there is the HARPEX method by Svein Berge for FOA signals, you can find the articles online. Another option is the recent COMPASS method which can also upmix second-order or 3rd-order if needed. Finally, an alternative is the sparse recovery approach by Wabnitz, Jin and Epain, published mostly in IEEE conferences. There are two plugins I know of offering this functionality at the moment, one by Blue Ripple Sound that uses HARPEX, and one based on COMPASS by us, which is to be released this month. In general if you have no previous experience with the various parts of these methods, time-frequency transforms, parameter estimation, adaptive filtering, maybe decorrelation, and others.. expect to spend many months testing things till you manage to get good audio quality. Best regards, Archontis Politis On 22 Feb 2019, at 03:37, Wilx Wilson mailto:wilxson@gmail.com>mailto:wilxson@gmail.com>>> wrote: Hi Everyone, Not sure if I have missed a discussion about upmixing with ambisonics on Sursound. Just wondering if anyone is willing to share some information on how to implement upmixing algorithms from 1st Order Ambisonics A to 3rd Order Ambisonics B-format. I am really curious to know on how they are implemented mathematically. Because I am developing a prototype plugin for my research project. Have a good day! Much Obliged, Wilson Lim -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: < https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/c16a21c1/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu<mailto:Sursound@music.vt.edu> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: < https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/782f0c2f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- *Axel Drioli* *axeldrioli.com<http://axeldrioli.com> <http://axeldrioli.com/>* *For immersive recordings visit ImmersiveFieldRecording.com<http://immersivefieldrecording.com> <http://immersivefieldrecording.com/>* *For Spatial Audio production visit SpatialAudioLabs.com<http://spatialaudiolabs.com> <http://SpatialAudioLabs.com<http://spatialaudiolabs.com>>* *Tel-Facetime: +44 7460 223640* *Skype: axel.drioli* *E-mail: a...@spatialaudiolabs.com<mailto:a...@spatialaudiolabs.com> mailto:a...@spatialaudiolabs.com>>* *Mostly LDN. UK.* -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/037cb2c2/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu<mailto:Sursound@music.vt.edu> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/ad6213fc/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Enquiry on upmixing from 1st order ambisonics to 3rd order ambisonics.
To add on top of the previous email, there are three then ( I didn t know about COMPASS), because Harpex can be a vst itself, which sounds magnificently good. Regards Axel On Fri, 22 Feb 2019 at 07:52, Politis Archontis wrote: > Hi Wilson, > > First of all you have to understand the upmixing algorithms themselves > before starting implementing them. Some methods that can do that are > Directional Audio Coding (DirAC), which you can read all about in the > “Parametric Time-frequency Domain Spatial Audio” book of last year, and > numerous articles from AES journal and conferences. Then there is the > HARPEX method by Svein Berge for FOA signals, you can find the articles > online. Another option is the recent COMPASS method which can also upmix > second-order or 3rd-order if needed. Finally, an alternative is the sparse > recovery approach by Wabnitz, Jin and Epain, published mostly in IEEE > conferences. > > There are two plugins I know of offering this functionality at the moment, > one by Blue Ripple Sound that uses HARPEX, and one based on COMPASS by us, > which is to be released this month. In general if you have no previous > experience with the various parts of these methods, time-frequency > transforms, parameter estimation, adaptive filtering, maybe decorrelation, > and others.. expect to spend many months testing things till you manage to > get good audio quality. > > Best regards, > > Archontis Politis > > On 22 Feb 2019, at 03:37, Wilx Wilson wilxson@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > Not sure if I have missed a discussion about upmixing with ambisonics on > Sursound. > > Just wondering if anyone is willing to share some information on how to > implement upmixing algorithms from 1st Order Ambisonics A to 3rd > Order Ambisonics B-format. > > I am really curious to know on how they are implemented mathematically. > Because I am developing a prototype plugin for my research project. > > Have a good day! > > Much Obliged, > Wilson Lim > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/c16a21c1/attachment.html > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu<mailto:Sursound@music.vt.edu> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/782f0c2f/attachment.html > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- *Axel Drioli* *axeldrioli.com <http://axeldrioli.com/>* *For immersive recordings visit ImmersiveFieldRecording.com <http://immersivefieldrecording.com/>* *For Spatial Audio production visit SpatialAudioLabs.com <http://SpatialAudioLabs.com>* *Tel-Facetime: +44 7460 223640* *Skype: axel.drioli* *E-mail: a...@spatialaudiolabs.com * *Mostly LDN. UK.* -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190222/037cb2c2/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
