Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
t;>> The vertical component of lift is reduced, and a pitch-stable > >>>>> aircraft > >>>>>> will just by itself increase its airspeed to restore it. It can do > >>>>>> that only by going down at that same time. > >>>>> True. > >>>>> > >>>>>> Unless you watch the horizon or the attitude indicator, you will > >>>>>> not be aware that this is happening. > >>>>> True. Whence the 178 seconds above. Also, "spatial disorientation in > >>>>> aviation". This Youtube channel of mine, "Mentour", has done quite a > >>>>> number of features on just this thing. He's a commercial pilot, and > >>>>> even > >>>>> has access to flight simulators. See above even for him inverting his > >>>>> native 737 in one. > >>>>> > >>>>>> As the roll angle increases, the g-force will apparently remain > >>>>>> vertical (relative to the aircraft) but increase as well. > >>>>> Actually the g-force does not increase at all. That's why the death > >>>>> spiral is so nasty: you don't feel anything at *all*, evenwhile > >>>>> you're > >>>>> going nose down into the ground. > >>>>> > >>>>> Much of that is because of the intrinsic stability of the aircraft. > >>>>> Because the stability means the craft wants to stay at 1g towards the > >>>>> floor. While it stays that way — no matter its actual attitude — you > >>>>> won't feel anything off even if the thing is inverted in a barrel > >>>>> roll — > >>>>> a nice and harmless aerobatic movement — or in a death spiral — with > >>>>> at most two seconds to die. > >>>>> > >>>>>> And at some point you will notice that you are pinned down in your > >>>>>> seat and unable to move - you are effectively in a centrifuge, way > >>>>> too > >>>>>> fast, going down, and the g-forces will be so high that they can > >>>>> break > >>>>>> up the aircraft. > >>>>> This only happens once you gained too much airspeed and try to > >>>>> recover > >>>>> by pulling up on the yoke. True, if you're already there, not much > >>>>> can > >>>>> be done to recover. But at least don't then pull up the yoke too > >>>>> fast in > >>>>> order to break the airframe. At max do something like a "gentle" 5g > >>>>> curve, and if you then manage to not crash into the terrain, level > >>>>> off > >>>>> and apply some spoiling. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ah, you too think about this. Hmm. 8) > >>>>> > >>>>>> To recover: > > 1. Reduce power to idle. > >>>>> Preferably as soon as you know you're losing altitude. Because > >>>>> you'll be > >>>>> trading potential energy for kinetic energy/speed from the get go. > >>>>> This > >>>>> is also why I mentioned fighter jets and dog fighting from the get > >>>>> go: > >>>>> that energy count-down (or up) is how dogfighting has been counted > >>>>> from > >>>>> the start. It's how dogfights are won, and the energy management is > >>>>> also > >>>>> how planes are either crashed or landed safely. > >>>>> > >>>>>>> 2. Bring the wings level. This has to be done gently, to avoid even > >>>>>>> more mechanical stress. > >>>>> Yes. However, this is difficult to do once you went into spatial > >>>>> disorientation, your synthetic horizon is at something like 120 > >>>>> degrees, > >>>>> and you descend at a about a five kilometres per minute, from an > >>>>> altitude of, say, a generous ten thousand feet. Within a thick cloud > >>>>> cover, with all of your instruments yelling at you at the same time. > >>>>> > >>>>>>> 3. As the wings return to level, the excessive speed will put the > >>>>>>> aircraft into a steep climb. > >>>>> What is "level", here? In a death spiral, the optimum recovery will > >>>>> take > >>>>> you through a route where you'll *definitely* not be level. Your nose > >>>>> will be looking down, at an airspeed which is *way* over your craft's > >>>>> design limits. That will also take place well after you can > >>>>> laterally, > >>>>> in ailerons, balance the aircraft; as such, even a very little > >>>>> take on > >>>>> the ailerons, or the rudder, the yoke, would immediately either stall > >>>>> some control surface, or made better, tear each of them apart. And > >>>>> you > >>>>> don't really know what is "level" hear, either; even your > >>>>> instrumentation is probably fucked up already; believe you me, no > >>>>> inertial thingy ever survives the kind of vibration an aircraft > >>>>> induces > >>>>> on itself when put into a multiple g's acceleration, combined with a > >>>>> wide stall. > >>>>> > >>>>>>> Let it happen but keep the pitch angle under control. > >>>>> Exactly so. "Let it happen." Many of the worst accidents on record > >>>>> have > >>>>> happened because pilots fought their planes, instead of "going > >>>>> with the > >>>>> flow" which a plane, designed to be statically stable from the start, > >>>>> would have done by itself. For example, (ya'll, prolly not Fons) > >>>>> take a > >>>>> look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation . > >>>>> > >>>>>>> You will regain some of the lost altitude, and airspeed will > >>>>>>> decrease. > >>>>> Recovery from a near miss death spiral is still more involved. > >>>>> Because > >>>>> you might have to operate the aircraft at structural load, and do a > >>>>> recovery from a prolonged stall over all of the airframe. You might > >>>>> actually have to "fly" your airframe over a minute in a full stall > >>>>> over > >>>>> every part of it, and then try to regain aerodynamic control. "After > >>>>> sinking, flying, and shaking like a rock from a cannon." > >>>>> > >>>>> It can be done. But nobody teaches you how to do this, and in fact, I > >>>>> don't know of *one* algorithm which has flown this route. > >>>>> > >>>>>> 4. As you approach normal airspeed, bring back power and level off. > >>>>> That should be obvious, then. It's that third stage before "Profit" > >>>>> which always slights the eye. ;) > >>>>> > >>>>>> Ciao, > >>>>> Moro. > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front > >>>>> +358-40-3751464 <http://decoy.iki.fi/front+358-40-3751464>, 025E > D175 > >>>>> ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 > >>>>> ___ > >>>>> Sursound mailing list > >>>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu > >>>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > >>>>> here, > >>>>> edit account or options, view archives and so on. > >>>>> > >>>> -- next part -- > >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >>>> URL: > >>>> < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/988a2b84/attachment.htm> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ___ > >>>> Sursound mailing list > >>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu > >>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > >>>> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > >>> ___ > >>> Sursound mailing list > >>> Sursound@music.vt.edu > >>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > >>> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > >> ___ > >> Sursound mailing list > >> Sursound@music.vt.edu > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > >> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > >> -- next part -- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: > >> < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/3142cd19/attachment.htm > > > >> ___ > >> Sursound mailing list > >> Sursound@music.vt.edu > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > >> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Re: [Sursound] about aviation [ot]
On 2023-03-01, Fons Adriaensen wrote: What you do there is: 1) you push down on the yoke to recover airspeed, Do that if you want to crash even sooner. You also do that in order to avert an impending stall. 2) you use ailerons to level off, You need to use ailerons, but certainly not to level off. To level off from the spiral or as the case may be, from an excessive roll. The fall is an another matter, to be dealt with separately. 3) apply lift and drag via flaps Your flaps may be ripped off if you do that. That's why you don't apply them in full, or willy-nilly. This is all *so completely wrong* that I don't know where to start to correct it. Is it, though? I kind of think I know what you are talking about in pilot training. However what I'm talking about is the optimized control law of a modern fly-by-wire fighter jet, or say something like an Airbus jumbo. Especially the former *will* know it's aerodynamically "unstable" (so as to say it's more "general" in its solution), so that in general the optimum path back from a death spiral will almost necessarily go through things like intermittent stalls on all flight control surfaces. Sure, human pilots typically haven't been trained to do anything of the like. Commercial pilots probably shouldn't, at all. But if you think about how to control an aircraft in full, how to control its full state space while observing the same, control theory wise, you'll fast see the easy and safe manoeuvre taught to pilots is *not* the optimum one. And in fact it's not what highly automated fighter jets such as the F22 or the F35 really do; nor does any one of the modern Airbus jets. They in fact employ spoilers and sometimes even flaps, by automation, they do pull down even in a heavy spin in order to preserve planform stressess, and so on. Fons, surely it shows I've not flown an aeroplane in my life. But at the same time, it surely also shows you've never written a line of code which would automatically and optimally take an airplane optimally out of . (Neither have I. But at least I've thought about it all, rather systematically and seriously. I even see immediate solutions which the pilot academy does not; say, spoiling your energy from the death spiral by putting your craft into maximum structurally permitted overall stall. You *can* do that and recover from it, you know.) I posted the essentials of getting out of a spiral a week ago. Please then post a link into the archives. Apparently I could benefit from them. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3751464, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
[Sursound] [ot] Death Spiral
On 2023-02-22, Sigmund Gudvangen wrote: What has this aviation stuff to do with surround sound? Perhaps nothing at all. That's why you're supposed to put [ot] (off-topic) in the subject line. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3751464, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
Actually the g-force does not increase at all. That's why the death spiral is so nasty: you don't feel anything at *all*, evenwhile you're going nose down into the ground. Much of that is because of the intrinsic stability of the aircraft. Because the stability means the craft wants to stay at 1g towards the floor. While it stays that way — no matter its actual attitude — you won't feel anything off even if the thing is inverted in a barrel roll — a nice and harmless aerobatic movement — or in a death spiral — with at most two seconds to die. And at some point you will notice that you are pinned down in your seat and unable to move - you are effectively in a centrifuge, way too fast, going down, and the g-forces will be so high that they can break up the aircraft. This only happens once you gained too much airspeed and try to recover by pulling up on the yoke. True, if you're already there, not much can be done to recover. But at least don't then pull up the yoke too fast in order to break the airframe. At max do something like a "gentle" 5g curve, and if you then manage to not crash into the terrain, level off and apply some spoiling. Ah, you too think about this. Hmm. 8) To recover: > > 1. Reduce power to idle. Preferably as soon as you know you're losing altitude. Because you'll be trading potential energy for kinetic energy/speed from the get go. This is also why I mentioned fighter jets and dog fighting from the get go: that energy count-down (or up) is how dogfighting has been counted from the start. It's how dogfights are won, and the energy management is also how planes are either crashed or landed safely. 2. Bring the wings level. This has to be done gently, to avoid even more mechanical stress. Yes. However, this is difficult to do once you went into spatial disorientation, your synthetic horizon is at something like 120 degrees, and you descend at a about a five kilometres per minute, from an altitude of, say, a generous ten thousand feet. Within a thick cloud cover, with all of your instruments yelling at you at the same time. 3. As the wings return to level, the excessive speed will put the aircraft into a steep climb. What is "level", here? In a death spiral, the optimum recovery will take you through a route where you'll *definitely* not be level. Your nose will be looking down, at an airspeed which is *way* over your craft's design limits. That will also take place well after you can laterally, in ailerons, balance the aircraft; as such, even a very little take on the ailerons, or the rudder, the yoke, would immediately either stall some control surface, or made better, tear each of them apart. And you don't really know what is "level" hear, either; even your instrumentation is probably fucked up already; believe you me, no inertial thingy ever survives the kind of vibration an aircraft induces on itself when put into a multiple g's acceleration, combined with a wide stall. Let it happen but keep the pitch angle under control. Exactly so. "Let it happen." Many of the worst accidents on record have happened because pilots fought their planes, instead of "going with the flow" which a plane, designed to be statically stable from the start, would have done by itself. For example, (ya'll, prolly not Fons) take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation . You will regain some of the lost altitude, and airspeed will decrease. Recovery from a near miss death spiral is still more involved. Because you might have to operate the aircraft at structural load, and do a recovery from a prolonged stall over all of the airframe. You might actually have to "fly" your airframe over a minute in a full stall over every part of it, and then try to regain aerodynamic control. "After sinking, flying, and shaking like a rock from a cannon." It can be done. But nobody teaches you how to do this, and in fact, I don't know of *one* algorithm which has flown this route. 4. As you approach normal airspeed, bring back power and level off. That should be obvious, then. It's that third stage before "Profit" which always slights the eye. ;) Ciao, Moro. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3751464 <http://decoy.iki.fi/front+358-40-3751464>, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/988a2b84/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/l
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
Chris Woolf wrote: Anyone any ideas how one could provide an audio horizon that could be a mimic of the gyro artificial horizon? A vague thought, that applies only to a small amount of surround sound recordings. I do mostly nature recordings and record also in urban areas, where the distant traffic hum is always present. The hum can be heard as a horizontal noise somewhere in the distance. Here in the north the distant traffic noise is also different in the winter and in the summer. We use studded tyres in the cars and they cause more high frequencies in the noise than unstudded tyres. Another thing that changes the sound scene in the winter is snow, it makes the general acoustics more dry and then it is easier to detect the direction of single sound sources. The problem is that a constant wide spectrum noise (the traffic hum) is more difficult to localize than signals that have transient content. Having said that, we _do_ localize an above flying jetplane, although it produces a noise type sound. We know from experience, that an aeroplane almost always is flying above us. But are we actively aware of the fact, that distant traffic hum appears as a zone above the horizon? Also, it would be somewhat strange to put artificially some kind of signal "beacons" at the horizon level around the listener, because they aren't part of the actual recording. Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
that is because of the intrinsic stability of the aircraft. Because the stability means the craft wants to stay at 1g towards the floor. While it stays that way — no matter its actual attitude — you won't feel anything off even if the thing is inverted in a barrel roll — a nice and harmless aerobatic movement — or in a death spiral — with at most two seconds to die. And at some point you will notice that you are pinned down in your seat and unable to move - you are effectively in a centrifuge, way too fast, going down, and the g-forces will be so high that they can break up the aircraft. This only happens once you gained too much airspeed and try to recover by pulling up on the yoke. True, if you're already there, not much can be done to recover. But at least don't then pull up the yoke too fast in order to break the airframe. At max do something like a "gentle" 5g curve, and if you then manage to not crash into the terrain, level off and apply some spoiling. Ah, you too think about this. Hmm. 8) To recover: > > 1. Reduce power to idle. Preferably as soon as you know you're losing altitude. Because you'll be trading potential energy for kinetic energy/speed from the get go. This is also why I mentioned fighter jets and dog fighting from the get go: that energy count-down (or up) is how dogfighting has been counted from the start. It's how dogfights are won, and the energy management is also how planes are either crashed or landed safely. 2. Bring the wings level. This has to be done gently, to avoid even more mechanical stress. Yes. However, this is difficult to do once you went into spatial disorientation, your synthetic horizon is at something like 120 degrees, and you descend at a about a five kilometres per minute, from an altitude of, say, a generous ten thousand feet. Within a thick cloud cover, with all of your instruments yelling at you at the same time. 3. As the wings return to level, the excessive speed will put the aircraft into a steep climb. What is "level", here? In a death spiral, the optimum recovery will take you through a route where you'll *definitely* not be level. Your nose will be looking down, at an airspeed which is *way* over your craft's design limits. That will also take place well after you can laterally, in ailerons, balance the aircraft; as such, even a very little take on the ailerons, or the rudder, the yoke, would immediately either stall some control surface, or made better, tear each of them apart. And you don't really know what is "level" hear, either; even your instrumentation is probably fucked up already; believe you me, no inertial thingy ever survives the kind of vibration an aircraft induces on itself when put into a multiple g's acceleration, combined with a wide stall. Let it happen but keep the pitch angle under control. Exactly so. "Let it happen." Many of the worst accidents on record have happened because pilots fought their planes, instead of "going with the flow" which a plane, designed to be statically stable from the start, would have done by itself. For example, (ya'll, prolly not Fons) take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation . You will regain some of the lost altitude, and airspeed will decrease. Recovery from a near miss death spiral is still more involved. Because you might have to operate the aircraft at structural load, and do a recovery from a prolonged stall over all of the airframe. You might actually have to "fly" your airframe over a minute in a full stall over every part of it, and then try to regain aerodynamic control. "After sinking, flying, and shaking like a rock from a cannon." It can be done. But nobody teaches you how to do this, and in fact, I don't know of *one* algorithm which has flown this route. 4. As you approach normal airspeed, bring back power and level off. That should be obvious, then. It's that third stage before "Profit" which always slights the eye. ;) Ciao, Moro. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3751464 <http://decoy.iki.fi/front+358-40-3751464>, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/988a2b84/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/l
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
not be level. Your nose >>> will be looking down, at an airspeed which is *way* over your craft's >>> design limits. That will also take place well after you can laterally, >>> in ailerons, balance the aircraft; as such, even a very little take on >>> the ailerons, or the rudder, the yoke, would immediately either stall >>> some control surface, or made better, tear each of them apart. And you >>> don't really know what is "level" hear, either; even your >>> instrumentation is probably fucked up already; believe you me, no >>> inertial thingy ever survives the kind of vibration an aircraft induces >>> on itself when put into a multiple g's acceleration, combined with a >>> wide stall. >>> >>> >> Let it happen but keep the pitch angle under control. >>> >>> Exactly so. "Let it happen." Many of the worst accidents on record have >>> happened because pilots fought their planes, instead of "going with the >>> flow" which a plane, designed to be statically stable from the start, >>> would have done by itself. For example, (ya'll, prolly not Fons) take a >>> look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation . >>> >>> >> You will regain some of the lost altitude, and airspeed will >>> >> decrease. >>> >>> Recovery from a near miss death spiral is still more involved. Because >>> you might have to operate the aircraft at structural load, and do a >>> recovery from a prolonged stall over all of the airframe. You might >>> actually have to "fly" your airframe over a minute in a full stall over >>> every part of it, and then try to regain aerodynamic control. "After >>> sinking, flying, and shaking like a rock from a cannon." >>> >>> It can be done. But nobody teaches you how to do this, and in fact, I >>> don't know of *one* algorithm which has flown this route. >>> >>> > 4. As you approach normal airspeed, bring back power and level off. >>> >>> That should be obvious, then. It's that third stage before "Profit" >>> which always slights the eye. ;) >>> >>> > Ciao, >>> >>> Moro. >>> -- >>> Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front >>> +358-40-3751464 <http://decoy.iki.fi/front+358-40-3751464>, 025E D175 >>> ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 >>> ___ >>> Sursound mailing list >>> Sursound@music.vt.edu >>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, >>> edit account or options, view archives and so on. >>> >> -- next part -- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/988a2b84/attachment.htm> >> >> ___ >> Sursound mailing list >> Sursound@music.vt.edu >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe >> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/3142cd19/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
rom the get go. This is also why I mentioned fighter jets and dog fighting from the get go: that energy count-down (or up) is how dogfighting has been counted from the start. It's how dogfights are won, and the energy management is also how planes are either crashed or landed safely. >> 2. Bring the wings level. This has to be done gently, to avoid even >> more mechanical stress. Yes. However, this is difficult to do once you went into spatial disorientation, your synthetic horizon is at something like 120 degrees, and you descend at a about a five kilometres per minute, from an altitude of, say, a generous ten thousand feet. Within a thick cloud cover, with all of your instruments yelling at you at the same time. >> 3. As the wings return to level, the excessive speed will put the >> aircraft into a steep climb. What is "level", here? In a death spiral, the optimum recovery will take you through a route where you'll *definitely* not be level. Your nose will be looking down, at an airspeed which is *way* over your craft's design limits. That will also take place well after you can laterally, in ailerons, balance the aircraft; as such, even a very little take on the ailerons, or the rudder, the yoke, would immediately either stall some control surface, or made better, tear each of them apart. And you don't really know what is "level" hear, either; even your instrumentation is probably fucked up already; believe you me, no inertial thingy ever survives the kind of vibration an aircraft induces on itself when put into a multiple g's acceleration, combined with a wide stall. >> Let it happen but keep the pitch angle under control. Exactly so. "Let it happen." Many of the worst accidents on record have happened because pilots fought their planes, instead of "going with the flow" which a plane, designed to be statically stable from the start, would have done by itself. For example, (ya'll, prolly not Fons) take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation . >> You will regain some of the lost altitude, and airspeed will >> decrease. Recovery from a near miss death spiral is still more involved. Because you might have to operate the aircraft at structural load, and do a recovery from a prolonged stall over all of the airframe. You might actually have to "fly" your airframe over a minute in a full stall over every part of it, and then try to regain aerodynamic control. "After sinking, flying, and shaking like a rock from a cannon." It can be done. But nobody teaches you how to do this, and in fact, I don't know of *one* algorithm which has flown this route. > 4. As you approach normal airspeed, bring back power and level off. That should be obvious, then. It's that third stage before "Profit" which always slights the eye. ;) > Ciao, Moro. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3751464 <http://decoy.iki.fi/front+358-40-3751464>, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/988a2b84/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
s return to level, the excessive speed will put the >> aircraft into a steep climb. What is "level", here? In a death spiral, the optimum recovery will take you through a route where you'll *definitely* not be level. Your nose will be looking down, at an airspeed which is *way* over your craft's design limits. That will also take place well after you can laterally, in ailerons, balance the aircraft; as such, even a very little take on the ailerons, or the rudder, the yoke, would immediately either stall some control surface, or made better, tear each of them apart. And you don't really know what is "level" hear, either; even your instrumentation is probably fucked up already; believe you me, no inertial thingy ever survives the kind of vibration an aircraft induces on itself when put into a multiple g's acceleration, combined with a wide stall. >> Let it happen but keep the pitch angle under control. Exactly so. "Let it happen." Many of the worst accidents on record have happened because pilots fought their planes, instead of "going with the flow" which a plane, designed to be statically stable from the start, would have done by itself. For example, (ya'll, prolly not Fons) take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation . >> You will regain some of the lost altitude, and airspeed will >> decrease. Recovery from a near miss death spiral is still more involved. Because you might have to operate the aircraft at structural load, and do a recovery from a prolonged stall over all of the airframe. You might actually have to "fly" your airframe over a minute in a full stall over every part of it, and then try to regain aerodynamic control. "After sinking, flying, and shaking like a rock from a cannon." It can be done. But nobody teaches you how to do this, and in fact, I don't know of *one* algorithm which has flown this route. > 4. As you approach normal airspeed, bring back power and level off. That should be obvious, then. It's that third stage before "Profit" which always slights the eye. ;) > Ciao, Moro. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3751464 <http://decoy.iki.fi/front+358-40-3751464>, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/988a2b84/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
Any chance you could take your aeroplane based discussions offline? Sent from my iPhone > On 7 Mar 2023, at 23:26, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano > wrote: > > On 3/7/23 3:08 PM, Panos Kouvelis wrote: >> I recently subscribed to this mailing list for insightful discussions on >> surround sound. >> Up 'till now, the material I have received is about aviation. >> Am I in the wrong place? > > Hi Panos, you are in the right place, please stay, there will be eventually > insightful posts about surround sound. I've seen it happen! > > -- Fernando > > >>> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:03 AM Sampo Syreeni wrote: On 2023-02-22, Fons Adriaensen wrote: >>> And in many cases the aircraft may very well be unstable in that axis: if left alone, the roll angle will slowly increase. >>> >>> Actually, most modern aircraft are stable in the bank axis as well. > ... [MUNCH] > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit > account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
Haha, thanks Fernando! *Pan Athen* SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd <http://mediaflake.com/>* Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:26 AM Fernando Lopez-Lezcano < na...@ccrma.stanford.edu> wrote: > On 3/7/23 3:08 PM, Panos Kouvelis wrote: > > I recently subscribed to this mailing list for insightful discussions on > > surround sound. > > > > Up 'till now, the material I have received is about aviation. > > > > Am I in the wrong place? > > Hi Panos, you are in the right place, please stay, there will be > eventually insightful posts about surround sound. I've seen it happen! > > -- Fernando > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:03 AM Sampo Syreeni wrote: > > > >> On 2023-02-22, Fons Adriaensen wrote: > >> > >>> And in many cases the aircraft may very well be unstable in that axis: > >>> if left alone, the roll angle will slowly increase. > >> > >> Actually, most modern aircraft are stable in the bank axis as well. > ... [MUNCH] > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/3455b807/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
