Re: [Sursound] wireless speaker/transmission recommendations

[Helmut Oellers]

...Show www.holoplot.com or www.syntheticwave.de

H.

Am 16.11.2016 21:57 schrieb "jim moses" :

> Hi,
> I'm looking for suggestions for an installation project. I need to transmit
> multi-channel audio to up to 10 loudspeakers. The distances are pretty
> short but I'm looking for a system with flexible routing.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim
>
> --
> Jim Moses
> Technical Director/Lecturer
> Brown University Music Department and M.E.M.E. (Multimedia and Electronic
> Music Experiments)
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Re: [Sursound] Plane waves from natural sources...

[Helmut Oellers]

...let us describe the main relations again.
The surface of the wave front radiate from point source increase by pi*d
quadrat. For double distance 4times larger surface results. 10 log (1/4) =
- 6,02 dB.

Cylinder wave surface doubled by double distance. 10 log( 1/2)= -3 dB.

Plane wave surface remain constant by distance, 10o log (1/1)= 0 dB, the
level decreases only by diffraction effects and air damping.

Focused sources in front of a loudspeaker wall decreases its surface by
distance. In focus point the level is much louder as at the radiating
plane, dependently its size relationship.

At the mentioned Highways the sound sources are not correlated. Additoin of
two same level sources would result in +3dB. Nevertheless, that level would
decrease  by 6 dB. However, the radiation is not a spherical radiation. The
Bottom reflects as well as cold air layers at the top. I think the 3dB
calculation based at statistic middle  value.

Greetings Helmut
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Re: [Sursound] Question about plane waves, and the precedence effect

[Helmut Oellers]

   Hi Augustine,
the parallel wave front virtually originate from startimg point far away
behind the loudspeaker array.
In the same manner as the moon is following you, if you are walking across
the street at nigth, the sound source follows your migration.

Besides, a loudspeaker line cannot produce parallel wave feonts, only
cylinder waves.

Greetings Helmut
www.syntheticwave.de
Am 12.09.2012 14:17 schrieb Augustine Leudar augustineleu...@gmail.com:

 Hi all,
 This is a question for those with knowledge of WFS. One of the
 properties of plane waves propagated with a single line array on a
 Wavefield synthesis system is that as you walk down the array the
 sound follows you appearing to emanate from the nearest loudspeaker
 . I was wondering if this was due to the precedence effect alone or if
 something else was going on as well ?
 If anyone can provide any references to their answers that would be
 uber appreciated,
 cheers,
 Gus
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Re: [Sursound] distance perception in virtual environments

[Helmut Oellers]

   ...modern computers are also clever. Today nothing is unaccountable if we
know the formula and all variables. Audio is no mysterious. The complete
sonic field would be calculatable. The only problem is the huge amount of
variables. In principle, yet, we are able to calculate any wave front of the
source and any of her reflections in the recording room. The Wave Field
Synthesis provides the approach for handling the problem. The procedure can
synthesize the complete spatial distribution of all wave fronts. In
principle, also all reflections become to restore correct in time, level and
direction, at least in the horizontal level of the loudspeaker rows. The
really disturbing component always remained, as like at all other audio
playback, the additional playback room acoustics, which deliver unwanted
reflections.

However, at WFS we have a chance for avoiding that problem. All we need is
including the playback room properties into the synthesis. By this way
becomes possible, subtract the additional detours of single wave fronts in
the playback room. Never conventional procedure will be able to that,
because direct wave, first reflections and reverberation inseparably merge
together in the transmitting channels. Thus, the playback room unavoidably
remains the disturbing component in transmitting chain. No chance exists for
true spatial audio by that way, thereby. And no chance exists for
reproducing the source distance correctly in the traditional way.


Regards Helmut
www.holophony.net





  I think rooms are poor substitute, and very recent on evolutionary
 timescales, for the predictable reflections one gets in a forest. You need
 the simulated  forest (sort of both uniform but also random )for an accurate
 guess of the start time. Then you delay the direct sound arrival time from
 there as well as decreasing its amplitude proportional to 1/t (where t is
 the time-of-flight from start time to arrival at the listener).. if I
 remember what I tried to do. If you live in a room then expect errors but
 the same principle applies!
 We can't and don't determine the direction and distance of a sound with
 only two ears. We use an infinite 3d array. We just don't know the precise
 details of the ever-changing array. It is a very clever trick that evolution
 has come up with!



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Re: [Sursound] distance perception in virtual environments

[Helmut Oellers]

Hi David,

you are not alone in your insigthes. Some single discrete reflections are
the most important fact for estimation of source distance.
There exist research from Helmut Wittek, who was proven, play the
reverberation from four different directions is absolutely sufficient. We
cannot use the direction of the wave fronts in the reverberation tail for
determine the position of the source. Also in the recording room, the
reverberation arrives from all possible directions.

Another case are the first reflections. Her  delay time and direction are
the most important fact for approve the source position, what inclusdes its
distance and the size impression of the recording room. Such single
reflections causing deep comb filter effects and change the perception
considerably. On the other hand, for reverberation is valid, what floyd
Toole says sometimes: As more reflections esxist as less disturbing there
are. ( as far as I remember well his words ).

All we need for correct distance reproduction is restore some ingle
reflections from her correct starting points and the correct relation
between direct wave and  reverberation.

Regards Helmut
www.holophony.net





2011/4/19 dw surso...@dwareing.plus.com


 Hi List,
 Just popped in.. It's been a while!

 IMO it is a combination of time-of-flight and the inverse square law, where
 t=0 is a virtual point in time determined by the brain as an intercept by
 plotting a function of the intensity of (primarily) transverse reflections
 against time.  Fortunately it is not necessary to work out how the brain
 might do this. One needs to concentrate maximising the availability, and
 accuracy of the information that would be needed to make such a calculation
 possible, without making too much muddy reverb. in the process.  Mono reverb
 does not seem to play much, or possibly any, part in this. It seems to be
 extracted in some way from larger ITDs and ILDs ie. transverse discrete
 reflections. It took me several years to work all this out, and nobody seems
 to have independently come  to the same conclusion in the last decade or
 so.. so it must be wrong. At least it is free and in the public domain now!
 My Heli.wav on Audio and Three Dimensional Sound Links* (long gone) was a
 product of precisely this method of distance synthesis.

 Regards,
 David Wareing.

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Re: [Sursound] 3DAA | Audio Alliance

[Helmut Oellers]

 Hello Stefan, good discussion.



 However: How many dry recorded audio tracks are there? There might be
 dozens... Therefore, you can't control things like space or data rate for
 streaming.



I see the upper limit at 32. Nobody is able to separate more source
positions in the real environment. We can merge together some sources, which
pose fairly common positions in the recording room.
On the other hand, often only one single source provides the audio content.
By which reason we should transmit more as one single channel?



 Data of source position and recording room acoustics would have to be
 coded in a transparent and elegant form, and is there any agreement on this?
 This looks far from being trivial...



Unfortunately, all trivial tasks are solved today. :)  However, this seem
solvable today. MPEG4 would be an appropriates standard, as example.




 Note that I am elsewhere accused to be a secret member of some supposed
 Ambisonics sect, but I personally think that I am just pragmatic.   :-D


...Gezerons Ideas are gerat. I see a lot of starting points for common
system approach from Holophony and Ambisonics. As example, the described
loudspeaker field behind the silver screen would be able to produce uncurved
wave fronts without too much impact of the playback room acoustics. Uncurved
wavefronts are fundamentally for ambisonics.



Regards Helmut
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Re: [Sursound] 3DAA | Audio Alliance

[Helmut Oellers]

Hi Mark,

what you describe, finally is the typically american solution: Printing
money for solving the crisis or increase the number of channels for improve
the spatial impression. We call the worn- out ways as commercial.

But finally, more creative solutions will get the drop on.

Regards H.





2010/12/22 newme...@aol.com

 Folks:

 This is one of the standard approaches to technical standards  nowadays.

 Get everyone interested to step up and pay-to-pay, divide up the issues,
 hire a professional association manager (i.e. Florencia Dazzi is with
 Assoc.
 Mgmt. Solutions.), etc . . . and give away the specifications.

 The goal is to have something for the home theater receiver DSP coders to
 aim at (whereas back when I was involved with IEEE 802 it was for the chip
 designers).

 The coders will make money selling microcode, Onkyo et al will make  money
 selling receivers, Holophone et al will make money selling microphones and
 so on.

 Clearly there needs to a HEIGHT addition to 5.1, since 3D video is the only
  available NBT (Next Big Thing) for home video.  The TVs are here and the
 studios are ready to rock-and-roll.  3D sports and music are a
  no-brainer.

 Btw, this is why I have been asking about Z-AXIS -- which seems to  have
 been MAG's keen interest all along -- on this list for the past  year+.  As
 you might recall, the list has had little to say.  g

 Since there is apparently NO company with a stake in Ambisonics, who will
 pay-to-pay on behalf of Ambisonics?

 Mark Stahlman
 Brooklyn NY


 In a message dated 12/22/2010 9:11:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
 st...@mail.telepac.pt writes:

 Dear  sursound fellows

 A technique journalist (and friend of mine) has sent  me a link, which is
 relevant to this  list:

 http://www.3daa.org/index.html

 I believe that this 3D  Audio Alliance will announce a lot more at the
 CES 2011 (trade  fairy).

 Currently, there is even no member list (Uli wrote this,  important
 point!), which means that this is something at early  stage.

 On the other hand, the audio standard will be object based,  not
 speaker based. (I am using  their  terminology. Is a sound  field an
 object?  Probably not...)

 Is anybody involved in  this project here?

 The description could fit to Ambisonics, but they do  not mention  any 
 technical details.

 The first  specifications is expected to be released in Q2 of  2012.

 Best,

 Stefan

 P.S.: I have recommended to use the  word 3D Audio even some years ago,
 for mere marketing reasons...   ;-)


  Original Message  
 Subject:3DAA | Audio Alliance
 Date:Wed, 22 Dec 2010 08:47:31 +0100
 From:   Uli Loehneysen  loehney...@aol.com
 To: Stefan Schreiber  st...@mail.telepac.pt




 http://www.3daa.org/index.html

 Keine  Angaben über Mitglieder . . .
 Grüße,
 Uli
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Re: [Sursound] Auro-3D

[Helmut Oellers]

...there is written at page two sounds coming from everywhere around and
above the listener
That's the problem. We are surrounded, not include in the sound. Really
immersive solutions are existing today, per example search holophony in
Google.

Regards, Helmut




2010/11/26 Eero Aro eero@dlc.fi

 Some like to do it the hard way:

 http://auro-3d.com/index.html

 sic

 Eero
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