Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
On 2012-01-12, Fons Adriaensen wrote: Nice work ! Usually for me binaural without head tracking just produces in-the-head sound. This one is different: on headphones everything seems to be _behind_ me ! Except for the airplane at the end which appeared where on could expect it. This is again just one measurement point, of course. The Fons-measurement, so to speak. But it's still rather interesting in at least to regards. First, if we have all of the original data leading to this binaural solution available, somewhere, and it seems that it leads to consistently inversed perception, a simple linear, multivariate discrimination test (or if you want, a support vector machine) against the consistently frontwards dataset(s) ought to give a pretty good idea of what makes the inversion happen. Especially with more and more fine grained data sets. I also listened on speakers, using zita-bls1 to do the conversion. This worked quite well, producing some scenes with an uncanny sense of realism. If processed right, that is another dataset in its own right. Secondarily it a) not only gives us another data set, with different constraints (do we know those constraints as well as we should?), then b) it tells us that since most people externalize sound sources better using speakers than headphones, there is something extra happening there which we should quantify (perhaps the dynamical, head-turning aspect, but maybe not only that?), and then c) certainly that the purely binaural version might be overly specific because different people hear it in different ways (so that it should be made less specific, in a controlled way, even if there could/should be a way to make it specific to a single person's hearing, even in the fully static setting). None of this is new in any way. But at the same time, evenwhile I'm rather well acquainted with the classical studies with dichotic (spectrally wideband and temporally low-support excitation; analog clicks), both temporally spread out and spectrally spread out yet temporally incoherent (bilaterally delayed white noise), the second most classical test in spectrally singular and at the same time temporally continuous power (phase discrimination tests between two sinusoids), and many other comparable tests, even in open air/headphones experiments... I've never seen a meta-analysis being done which would really lower or upper bound the directional accuracy of human hearing. Even those few tests which purported to show that ultrasonics somehow affect directional hearing acuity, which I tentatively painted as something which could validate the highest sample rates, many years back, never did not follow such a protocol to its logical conclusion. This sort of thing should be done, in all of its various forms, while recording and fully, openly, sharing all of the resulting data. Then all of the mass should one day be analysed en masse, using the most advanced statistical tools, to see whether/what real data could be gleaned from it, and especially which further, more precise hypotheses it suggests for further study. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 06:52:14PM -0500, Hector Centeno wrote: Thank you Fons for your comments. What parameters did use for zita-bls1? The default ones? Yes. As to everything appearing in the back that's probably just me... I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid the front/back reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse SDIF files that are 44.1kHz only so I wonder if anyone knows how to resample them to 48kHz, which is what I use. I always wondered why 44.1 kHz is so popular with EA music people... It's generally a pain if your whole studio uses 48 kHz as the standard. Are the IRs actually those from Ircam's LISTEN database ? These are all 44.1 kHz. I've started writing a small zita-convolver app to use them. This will resample as required but it's unfinished ATM. Ciao, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
Le 13 janv. 2012 à 00:52, Hector Centeno a écrit : I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid the front/back reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse SDIF files that are 44.1kHz only so I wonder if anyone knows how to resample them to 48kHz, which is what I use. 48kHz filters for Spat : http://echanges.ircam.fr/filez/download.php?ad=239605ZfpX I do interpolate separately the excess phase part and the magnitude spectrum, rather than resampling the HRIR. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120113/6ec6fbd6/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
Hi Thibaut, Is there a specific technical reason for doing it that way, or is it just more convenient? Dave On 13 January 2012 12:47, Thibaut Carpentier thibaut.carpent...@ircam.frwrote: I do interpolate separately the excess phase part and the magnitude spectrum, rather than resampling the HRIR. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120113/6ec6fbd6/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer Dave Malham http://music.york.ac.uk/staff/research/dave-malham/%20 Music Research Centre Department of Music The University of York Heslington York YO10 5DD UK Phone 01904 322448 Fax 01904 322450 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120113/1b37eb5f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
Thank you Thibaut, I've been looking for these for long time! I couldn't find them easily in the IRCAM website. Cheers, Hector On 2012-01-13, at 7:47 AM, Thibaut Carpentier wrote: Le 13 janv. 2012 à 00:52, Hector Centeno a écrit : I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid the front/back reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse SDIF files that are 44.1kHz only so I wonder if anyone knows how to resample them to 48kHz, which is what I use. 48kHz filters for Spat : http://echanges.ircam.fr/filez/download.php?ad=239605ZfpX I do interpolate separately the excess phase part and the magnitude spectrum, rather than resampling the HRIR. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120113/6ec6fbd6/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
... so I tested loading these 48kHz filters but I get a Invalid header error in Max/MSP when trying the HRTF files. The coll files work fine. Is there any mayor difference between the two that I might be missing? I used a hex editor to inspect the header and compared it with a 44.1 file and found that indeed there is different info there. Are these for a recent version of Spat? Mine is from 2010. Hector On 2012-01-13, at 12:50 PM, Hector Centeno wrote: Thank you Thibaut, I've been looking for these for long time! I couldn't find them easily in the IRCAM website. Cheers, Hector On 2012-01-13, at 7:47 AM, Thibaut Carpentier wrote: Le 13 janv. 2012 à 00:52, Hector Centeno a écrit : I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid the front/back reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse SDIF files that are 44.1kHz only so I wonder if anyone knows how to resample them to 48kHz, which is what I use. 48kHz filters for Spat : http://echanges.ircam.fr/filez/download.php?ad=239605ZfpX I do interpolate separately the excess phase part and the magnitude spectrum, rather than resampling the HRIR. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120113/6ec6fbd6/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:49:12PM -0500, Hector Centeno wrote: Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape piece I made using the Brahma mic, presented here in a binaural version. The recordings were converted from A to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the calibrated preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using the extended cube preset extcube-1h1v, which is a regular cube plus speakers on the centre of each face) and then binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses the IRCAM Spat objects (I also programmed head tracking in this patch). I wonder if using that Ambdec preset would be the best for creating BInarual versions so any comments are welcome. http://soundcloud.com/hcenteno/world-listening-days-2011 Nice work ! Usually for me binaural without head tracking just produces in-the-head sound. This one is different: on headphones everything seems to be _behind_ me ! Except for the airplane at the end which appeared where on could expect it. I also listened on speakers, using zita-bls1 to do the conversion. This worked quite well, producing some scenes with an uncanny sense of realism. Ciao, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
dear hector just listened to the recordings, they sound great. on my Sony MDR V6 headphones, i did not hear the front back reversal. umashankar From: hcen...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:52:14 -0500 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!) Thank you Fons for your comments. What parameters did use for zita-bls1? The default ones? I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid the front/back reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse SDIF files that are 44.1kHz only so I wonder if anyone knows how to resample them to 48kHz, which is what I use. Cheers, Hector On 2012-01-12, at 5:18 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:49:12PM -0500, Hector Centeno wrote: Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape piece I made using the Brahma mic, presented here in a binaural version. The recordings were converted from A to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the calibrated preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using the extended cube preset extcube-1h1v, which is a regular cube plus speakers on the centre of each face) and then binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses the IRCAM Spat objects (I also programmed head tracking in this patch). I wonder if using that Ambdec preset would be the best for creating BInarual versions so any comments are welcome. http://soundcloud.com/hcenteno/world-listening-days-2011 Nice work ! Usually for me binaural without head tracking just produces in-the-head sound. This one is different: on headphones everything seems to be _behind_ me ! Except for the airplane at the end which appeared where on could expect it. I also listened on speakers, using zita-bls1 to do the conversion. This worked quite well, producing some scenes with an uncanny sense of realism. Ciao, -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120113/e4a3ce33/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
Hi Umashankar (and anyone interested), Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape piece I made using the Brahma mic, presented here in a binaural version. The recordings were converted from A to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the calibrated preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using the extended cube preset extcube-1h1v, which is a regular cube plus speakers on the centre of each face) and then binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses the IRCAM Spat objects (I also programmed head tracking in this patch). I wonder if using that Ambdec preset would be the best for creating BInarual versions so any comments are welcome. You are almost certainly aware that TetraProc offers two channel outputs ... Fons (some years ago) was quite self-deprecaing about the Xtalk option. But I appreciated it. I certainly use them with success for 'stereo', but have little experience with binaural. Michael ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:37:18PM -, Michael Chapman wrote: You are almost certainly aware that TetraProc offers two channel outputs ... Fons (some years ago) was quite self-deprecaing about the Xtalk option. But I appreciated it. It amounts to a first order highpass on the difference channel (L-R). The net result is that at low frequencies there is delayed crosstalk which turns amplitude differences into phase differences - close to the ones that would occur with real sources. It's the inverse operation of zita-bls1, and you can in fact tune zita-bls1 to make it almost cancel the Xtalk option. Ciao, -- FA Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
Hi Michael, Yes, I'm aware of that and it's a very nice feature. I also use the VST plugin VVMic for ambisonic to stereo conversion which I'm assuming does something similar to the stereo output in Tetraproc (virtual mics with adjustable polarity and orientation). In this case, of course, I'm attempting full periphonic decode into a binaural sound field. Cheers, Hector On 2012-01-11, at 7:37 AM, Michael Chapman wrote: Hi Umashankar (and anyone interested), Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape piece I made using the Brahma mic, presented here in a binaural version. The recordings were converted from A to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the calibrated preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using the extended cube preset extcube-1h1v, which is a regular cube plus speakers on the centre of each face) and then binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses the IRCAM Spat objects (I also programmed head tracking in this patch). I wonder if using that Ambdec preset would be the best for creating BInarual versions so any comments are welcome. You are almost certainly aware that TetraProc offers two channel outputs ... Fons (some years ago) was quite self-deprecaing about the Xtalk option. But I appreciated it. I certainly use them with success for 'stereo', but have little experience with binaural. Michael ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
[Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)
Hi Umashankar (and anyone interested), Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape piece I made using the Brahma mic, presented here in a binaural version. The recordings were converted from A to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the calibrated preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using the extended cube preset extcube-1h1v, which is a regular cube plus speakers on the centre of each face) and then binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses the IRCAM Spat objects (I also programmed head tracking in this patch). I wonder if using that Ambdec preset would be the best for creating BInarual versions so any comments are welcome. http://soundcloud.com/hcenteno/world-listening-days-2011 Cheers! Hector On 2011-12-05, at 10:42 AM, umashankar mantravadi wrote: dear hector that sounded very good indeed on my sony mdr5 headphones. did you record with brahma? umashankar i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 21:40:26 -0600 To: sursound@music.vt.edu From: d...@fugato.com Subject: Re: [Sursound] Great responses to my post--thanks! At 21:29 04/12/2011, Hector Centeno wrote: Here is an example recording I made: http://soundcloud.com/hcenteno/kids-running-in-the-wychwood-barns Thanks! It sounds good to me played on earbuds... David ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20111205/7353b102/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
